Notes from Zhong Ri hospital, AP, part 1

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

 

Well, first day on the AP wards at Zhong Ri. I must admit I was a

little disappointed with it so far. All the patients we saw today,

had either hemiplegia, pain (usually the back), weight problems and

acne.

 

Not many tongue and pulses were examined and there was little

syndrome differentiation. Treatment is very much symptomatic with a

high concentration on the local area versus distal treatment. Pretty

much the same points were used for the patient's with hemiplegia,

weight lost and acne patients. Points for the pain changed depending

where the pain was. No manipulation was used, just neutral. A lot of

Gui Sha and cupping was used however, again for pain.

 

(For mdx students, so real chance to do a lot of needling, the

doctor said we'll only get to needle Zusanli and Sanyinjiao.

Hopefully things should be better at Xi Yuan).

 

Attilio

[Guest guest]

Sorry, forgot to say, that the standard needles used are 0.35x50mm

which are a little bigger and thicker than the standard ones used in

the UK. Also there's no guide-tubes, sterilization is a little slack

and they don't know the acupuncture points sequence numbers. Not

that i mind to any of these points, just thought some people would

like to know.

 

Atti

 

" " <attiliodalberto> wrote:

> Hi All,

>

> Well, first day on the AP wards at Zhong Ri. I must admit I was a

> little disappointed with it so far. All the patients we saw today,

> had either hemiplegia, pain (usually the back), weight problems

and

> acne.

>

> Not many tongue and pulses were examined and there was little

> syndrome differentiation. Treatment is very much symptomatic with

a

> high concentration on the local area versus distal treatment.

Pretty

> much the same points were used for the patient's with hemiplegia,

> weight lost and acne patients. Points for the pain changed

depending

> where the pain was. No manipulation was used, just neutral. A lot

of

> Gui Sha and cupping was used however, again for pain.

>

> (For mdx students, so real chance to do a lot of needling, the

> doctor said we'll only get to needle Zusanli and Sanyinjiao.

> Hopefully things should be better at Xi Yuan).

>

> Attilio

[Guest guest]

Attilio,

Although I speak as an outsider, in other words, I haven't worked or

studied in Chinese hospitals, I must say I am not surprised at your

reaction. One of the sadder developments in mainstream CM in China is

the limitation and weakening of the role of acupuncture/moxabustion to

a form of physiotherapy, limited to a few conditions, and without much

use of traditional forms of diagnosis or treatment.

 

It is like having a great violinist play nursery rhymes with the bow

between his/her teeth, with both arms bound behind his/her back.

 

There are other places in China where you can find more traditional

forms of acupuncture being practiced. Jason Robertson, a colleague of

mine, has studied extensively with a Nan Jing-based teacher in Beijing.

The amount of sophistication in his methods cannot be compared with

the typical practice in a mainstream hospital.

 

 

On Apr 19, 2004, at 2:31 AM, wrote:

 

> Hi All,

>

> Well, first day on the AP wards at Zhong Ri. I must admit I was a

> little disappointed with it so far. All the patients we saw today,

> had either hemiplegia, pain (usually the back), weight problems and

> acne.

>

> Not many tongue and pulses were examined and there was little

> syndrome differentiation. Treatment is very much symptomatic with a

> high concentration on the local area versus distal treatment. Pretty

> much the same points were used for the patient's with hemiplegia,

> weight lost and acne patients. Points for the pain changed depending

> where the pain was. No manipulation was used, just neutral. A lot of

> Gui Sha and cupping was used however, again for pain.

>

> (For mdx students, so real chance to do a lot of needling, the

> doctor said we'll only get to needle Zusanli and Sanyinjiao.

> Hopefully things should be better at Xi Yuan).

>

> Attilio

>

>

>

>

> Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear,

> religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear.

>

> To change your email delivery settings,

> Chinese Medicine/ click

> ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly.

>

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> being delivered.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Attilio!

 

At 10:46 AM 4/19/2004, you wrote:<snip> sterilization is a little slack

 

Really? How slack is it, is there any standard at all? Worse than you are

used to in the UK, I gather . . .

 

In the US this would be unthinkable, but I guess it varies from country to

country.

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

Hi Zev,

 

Yes, I think mainstream acupuncture in China is indeed limited in its scope.

I have also heard that Nan Jing is one of the better places to study

acupuncture and Guangzhou is a good place for internal medicine (herbs and

formulae). Of course this is a broad assumption and not always the case.

 

Having said all that I did, there is a well known acupuncturist across the

corridor from where I am situated at Zhong Ri. An expert at fire needling,

her treatments have known to cure the often regarded 'incurable'. So it's

nice to see that someone at least has the violin out and is playing

exquisite music on it, but the audience around haven't quite tuned in yet.

 

Kind regards

 

Attilio

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine

 

 

 

[zrosenbe]

19 April 2004 19:14

Chinese Medicine

Re: Notes from Zhong Ri hospital, AP, part 1

 

 

Attilio,

Although I speak as an outsider, in other words, I haven't worked or

studied in Chinese hospitals, I must say I am not surprised at your

reaction. One of the sadder developments in mainstream CM in China is

the limitation and weakening of the role of acupuncture/moxabustion to

a form of physiotherapy, limited to a few conditions, and without much

use of traditional forms of diagnosis or treatment.

 

It is like having a great violinist play nursery rhymes with the bow

between his/her teeth, with both arms bound behind his/her back.

 

There are other places in China where you can find more traditional

forms of acupuncture being practiced. Jason Robertson, a colleague of

mine, has studied extensively with a Nan Jing-based teacher in Beijing.

The amount of sophistication in his methods cannot be compared with

the typical practice in a mainstream hospital.

 

 

On Apr 19, 2004, at 2:31 AM, wrote:

 

> Hi All,

>

> Well, first day on the AP wards at Zhong Ri. I must admit I was a

> little disappointed with it so far. All the patients we saw today,

> had either hemiplegia, pain (usually the back), weight problems and

> acne.

>

> Not many tongue and pulses were examined and there was little

> syndrome differentiation. Treatment is very much symptomatic with a

> high concentration on the local area versus distal treatment. Pretty

> much the same points were used for the patient's with hemiplegia,

> weight lost and acne patients. Points for the pain changed depending

> where the pain was. No manipulation was used, just neutral. A lot of

> Gui Sha and cupping was used however, again for pain.

>

> (For mdx students, so real chance to do a lot of needling, the

> doctor said we'll only get to needle Zusanli and Sanyinjiao.

> Hopefully things should be better at Xi Yuan).

>

> Attilio

>

>

>

>

> Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear,

> religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear.

>

> To change your email delivery settings,

> Chinese Medicine/ click

> ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly.

>

> If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop

> being delivered.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Pete.

 

Needles are reused. They are kept in a pin cushion within a box and

when they are brought out the tip is wiped with a cotton bud that

has been soaked in surgical spirit.

 

In the UK, as I'm sure other parts of the west, needles are

disposable, pre-packed in controlled environments, used once only

and are pre-sterilised.

 

Attilio

 

Pete Theisen <petet@a...> wrote:

> Hi Attilio!

>

> At 10:46 AM 4/19/2004, you wrote:<snip> sterilization is a little

slack

>

> Really? How slack is it, is there any standard at all? Worse than

you are used to in the UK, I gather . . .

>

> In the US this would be unthinkable, but I guess it varies from

country to country.

>

> Regards,

>

> Pete

[Guest guest]

Hi Attilio

 

Attilio wrote:

 

> Hi Pete, [in the clinics that I visited] ... needles are reused.

> They are kept in a pin cushion within a box and when they are

> brought out the tip is wiped with a cotton bud that has been

> soaked in surgical spirit. In the UK, as I'm sure other parts of

> the west, needles are disposable, pre-packed in controlled

> environments, used once only and are pre-sterilised. Attilio

 

I am amazed that such primitive practices survive in Chinese

hospitals!

 

Storing used acupuncture needles in a pin cushion and wiping the

tips with a cotton bud soaked in surgical spirit before reuse is

totally unacceptable.

 

The same applies to reuse of 7-Star (or hammer) needles; they

CANNOT be sterilised adequately after use. Even autoclaving is

unacceptable.

 

Prion-infected material withstands ashing at 600 DegC and retains

infectivity after that!

 

Such shoddy practice merely gives the enemies of AP a good

excuse to brand acupuncturists as incompetent quacks.

 

There is great risk of cross-infection with HIV/AIDS, hepatitis, CJD,

etc via dirty needles. IMO, failure to use presterilised single-use

needles in humans is professionally negligent, if not criminal.

 

AP needles cost only a few cents each. Why put the patient at risk

for a few cents?

 

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

[Guest guest]

, " "

<@e...> wrote:

> Hi Attilio

>

>>

> Prion-infected material withstands ashing at 600 DegC and retains

> infectivity after that!

>

>> Best regards,

>

 

>

Phil,

Do you think that disposable needles should be used on cats and dogs

as well to safeguard from prions or...? I will share your answer

with my vet here.

Thank you,

Jill Likkel

[Guest guest]

My assumption is that they are autoclaved after each use. Am I correct Attilio?

doug

 

, " " <@e...>

wrote:

> Hi Attilio

>

> Attilio wrote:

>

> > Hi Pete, [in the clinics that I visited] ... needles are reused.

> > They are kept in a pin cushion within a box and when they are

> > brought out the tip is wiped with a cotton bud that has been

> > soaked in surgical spirit. In the UK, as I'm sure other parts of

> > the west, needles are disposable, pre-packed in controlled

> > environments, used once only and are pre-sterilised. Attilio

>

> I am amazed that such primitive practices survive in Chinese

> hospitals!

>

> Storing used acupuncture needles in a pin cushion and wiping the

> tips with a cotton bud soaked in surgical spirit before reuse is

> totally unacceptable.

>

> The same applies to reuse of 7-Star (or hammer) needles; they

> CANNOT be sterilised adequately after use. Even autoclaving is

> unacceptable.

>

> Prion-infected material withstands ashing at 600 DegC and retains

> infectivity after that!

>

> Such shoddy practice merely gives the enemies of AP a good

> excuse to brand acupuncturists as incompetent quacks.

>

> There is great risk of cross-infection with HIV/AIDS, hepatitis, CJD,

> etc via dirty needles. IMO, failure to use presterilised single-use

> needles in humans is professionally negligent, if not criminal.

>

> AP needles cost only a few cents each. Why put the patient at risk

> for a few cents?

>

>

> Best regards,

>

> Email: <@e...>

>

> WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

> Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

>

> HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

> Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

> WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

[Guest guest]

Yes, they are probably autoclaved, although i haven't seen it as

yet, then they go back in the pin cushion until they are used. The 7

star hammer needles are also probably autoclaved although throughout

the day they are stored in a jar of surgical spirit until needed. I

believe that i saw the same 7 star hammer needle used on a number of

patients with facial paralysis.

 

Atti

 

" " wrote:

> My assumption is that they are autoclaved after each use. Am I

correct Attilio?

> doug

>

> , " "

<@e...>

> wrote:

> > Hi Attilio

> >

> > Attilio wrote:

> >

> > > Hi Pete, [in the clinics that I visited] ... needles are

reused.

> > > They are kept in a pin cushion within a box and when they are

> > > brought out the tip is wiped with a cotton bud that has been

> > > soaked in surgical spirit. In the UK, as I'm sure other parts

of

> > > the west, needles are disposable, pre-packed in controlled

> > > environments, used once only and are pre-sterilised. Attilio

> >

> > I am amazed that such primitive practices survive in Chinese

> > hospitals!

> >

> > Storing used acupuncture needles in a pin cushion and wiping the

> > tips with a cotton bud soaked in surgical spirit before reuse is

> > totally unacceptable.

> >

> > The same applies to reuse of 7-Star (or hammer) needles; they

> > CANNOT be sterilised adequately after use. Even autoclaving is

> > unacceptable.

> >

> > Prion-infected material withstands ashing at 600 DegC and

retains

> > infectivity after that!

> >

> > Such shoddy practice merely gives the enemies of AP a good

> > excuse to brand acupuncturists as incompetent quacks.

> >

> > There is great risk of cross-infection with HIV/AIDS, hepatitis,

CJD,

> > etc via dirty needles. IMO, failure to use presterilised single-

use

> > needles in humans is professionally negligent, if not criminal.

> >

> > AP needles cost only a few cents each. Why put the patient at

risk

> > for a few cents?

> >

> >

> > Best regards,

> >

> > Email: <@e...>

> >

> > WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4,

Ireland

> > Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

> >

> > HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

> > Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

> > WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

[Guest guest]

Hi Attilio

 

Attilio wrote:

 

> Hi Pete, [in the clinics that I visited] ... needles are reused.

> They are kept in a pin cushion within a box and when they are

> brought out the tip is wiped with a cotton bud that has been

> soaked in surgical spirit. In the UK, as I'm sure other parts of

> the west, needles are disposable, pre-packed in controlled

> environments, used once only and are pre-sterilised. Attilio

 

I am amazed that such primitive practices survive in Chinese

hospitals!

 

Storing used acupuncture needles in a pin cushion and wiping the

tips with a cotton bud soaked in surgical spirit before reuse is

totally unacceptable.

 

The same applies to reuse of 7-Star (or hammer) needles; they

CANNOT be sterilised adequately after use. Even autoclaving is

unacceptable.

 

Prion-infected material withstands ashing at 600 DegC and retains

infectivity after that!

 

Such shoddy practice merely gives the enemies of AP a good

excuse to brand acupuncturists as incompetent quacks.

 

There is great risk of cross-infection with HIV/AIDS, hepatitis, CJD,

etc via dirty needles. IMO, failure to use presterilised single-use

needles in humans is professionally negligent, if not criminal.

 

AP needles cost only a few cents each. Why put the patient at risk

for a few cents?

 

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

[Guest guest]

Hi Phil,

 

A few cents is a lot of money in China, hence needles are reused.

 

The 7-star hammer is also reused, although it is soaked in surgical spirit

for some length of time. Of course this and the other methods of

sterilisation are inadequate, but that's the way things are in China. I

think this has to do with cultural issues to a degree and more to do with

education. Now there are diagrams above sinks instructing practitioners to

wash their hands because of SARS, therefore it probably wasn't there before.

 

Kind regards

 

Attilio

 

<Chinese Traditional Medicine>

Chinese Traditional Medicine

 

 

[]

21 April 2004 04:00

Chinese Medicine

Cc: ; pa-l

Re: Notes from Zhong Ri hospital, AP, part 1

 

 

Hi Attilio

 

Attilio wrote:

 

> Hi Pete, [in the clinics that I visited] ... needles are reused.

> They are kept in a pin cushion within a box and when they are

> brought out the tip is wiped with a cotton bud that has been

> soaked in surgical spirit. In the UK, as I'm sure other parts of

> the west, needles are disposable, pre-packed in controlled

> environments, used once only and are pre-sterilised. Attilio

 

I am amazed that such primitive practices survive in Chinese

hospitals!

 

Storing used acupuncture needles in a pin cushion and wiping the

tips with a cotton bud soaked in surgical spirit before reuse is

totally unacceptable.

 

The same applies to reuse of 7-Star (or hammer) needles; they

CANNOT be sterilised adequately after use. Even autoclaving is

unacceptable.

 

Prion-infected material withstands ashing at 600 DegC and retains

infectivity after that!

 

Such shoddy practice merely gives the enemies of AP a good

excuse to brand acupuncturists as incompetent quacks.

 

There is great risk of cross-infection with HIV/AIDS, hepatitis, CJD,

etc via dirty needles. IMO, failure to use presterilised single-use

needles in humans is professionally negligent, if not criminal.

 

AP needles cost only a few cents each. Why put the patient at risk

for a few cents?

 

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

 

 

Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious,

spam messages,flame another member or swear.

 

To change your email delivery settings,

Chinese Medicine/ click 'edit my

membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly.

 

If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being

delivered.

 

 

 

 

_____