Guest guest Posted April 18, 2004 Report Share Posted April 18, 2004 Hi All, & Hi Stefanie Susan wrote: " Is Ejiao not mainly gelatin? " Stefanie replied: > Yes, it is gelatinous. But I'd like to explore alternatives to > this. We've mentioned before how important it is to reduce the > exploitation of endangered species (e.g. rhincerus horn...) but I > think we should be avoding the use of animal parts in medicinal > preparations too. For one thing, there is the risk of > transmissible disease. But mostly for the sake of sacrificing > animals unnecessarily. It just doesn't feel right to me. If we want > to 'spread the word' about alternative practices in the Western > world, I think we should consider replacing unmarketable and > unnecessary animal ingredients. I think we should be spreading the > word back to the source too. The Asian market for animal > ingredients remains high. Rhinocerus horn is just the beginning. > Think of the extremely endangered wild gorillas and other primates > that are massacred because Africans, for example, think that their > hands possess magic powers. So, I would really appreciate hearing > of an alternative for Ass Hide Glue in formulas intended to treat > behavior problems in pets. Sure would appreciate a reply! Stefanie As many colleagues wish, it would be desirable to find effective substitutes for animal ingredients in medicine. Also, Stefanie has a valid point against using ANY animal ingredients unless we are certain that they are free of risk of transmissable diseases. However, I have a few comments. 1. Cattle and sheep are slaughtered in millions every year in abattoirs around the world. In theory, their horn, hide and hooves could be used as a source of gelatin, but WHY do we not see these gelatin forms feature in the Chinese Pharmacopeia? Is it that I have missed that, or do the Chinese actually put little value on those ingredients? 2. In CHM, several animal ingredients (Biejiajiao, Ejiao, Guibanjiao, Lujiaojiao, Lurongjiao, etc) contain various forms of gelatin but their claimed TCM actions are NOT identical. I understand that TCM attributes different Qi forms and characteristics (at least as regards the Five Elements) to each animal (and meat) type. Could this be why deer, asses and turtles/tortoises etc are reckoned to be of special value in TCM?: i.e. that it is not the GELATIN, but the special Qi of the donor species that is effective clinically? As I argued in an earlier post, it is not easy to find a SINGLE non- animal-sourced ingredient that will produce ALL the clinical effects claimed for Ejiao. At least, nobody on these Lists has come up with a perfect match for Ejaio so far! Does the same apply to Biejiajiao, Guibanjiao, Lujiaojiao, Lurongjiao, etc? Can anyone suggest perfect alternatives to them? Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2004 Report Share Posted April 18, 2004 Dear Phil, Stephanie and others, Is not ass-hide glue made from donkeys who have died? You know, when a horse got old, you would say you were sending him to the glue-factory? So how is it sacrificing animals unnecessarily? Julie - " " < <vBMA; Cc: <traditional_Chinese_Medicine > Sunday, April 18, 2004 6:18 PM Re: Ejiao (Ass Hide Glue) Substitute? > > Yes, it is gelatinous. But I'd like to explore alternatives to > > this. We've mentioned before how important it is to reduce the > > exploitation of endangered species (e.g. rhincerus horn...) but I > > think we should be avoding the use of animal parts in medicinal > > preparations too. For one thing, there is the risk of > > transmissible disease. But mostly for the sake of sacrificing > > animals unnecessarily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2004 Report Share Posted April 19, 2004 UPDATE..........recently in the United States (around the April 12th ephedrine alkaloid ban) the FDA has now flexed their over-control by stopping an incoming shipment of Chinese herbal formulas based upon the weak idea that animal ingredients which are included in those formulas are 'additives' and therefore 'unapproved' by the FDA. An interesting devolving idea especially since many cultures around the world EAT animals/parts as FOOD. Are they suggesting that Kentucky Fried Chicken shall now need to get FDA approval for their chicken legs/wings which are then added to batter and oil before they can sell them? Richard In a message dated 4/18/2004 8:20:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, writes: Hi All, & Hi Stefanie Susan wrote: " Is Ejiao not mainly gelatin? " Stefanie replied: > Yes, it is gelatinous. But I'd like to explore alternatives to > this. We've mentioned before how important it is to reduce the > exploitation of endangered species (e.g. rhincerus horn...) but I > think we should be avoding the use of animal parts in medicinal > preparations too. For one thing, there is the risk of > transmissible disease. But mostly for the sake of sacrificing > animals unnecessarily. It just doesn't feel right to me. If we want > to 'spread the word' about alternative practices in the Western > world, I think we should consider replacing unmarketable and > unnecessary animal ingredients. I think we should be spreading the > word back to the source too. The Asian market for animal > ingredients remains high. Rhinocerus horn is just the beginning. > Think of the extremely endangered wild gorillas and other primates > that are massacred because Africans, for example, think that their > hands possess magic powers. So, I would really appreciate hearing > of an alternative for Ass Hide Glue in formulas intended to treat > behavior problems in pets. Sure would appreciate a reply! Stefanie As many colleagues wish, it would be desirable to find effective substitutes for animal ingredients in medicine. Also, Stefanie has a valid point against using ANY animal ingredients unless we are certain that they are free of risk of transmissable diseases. However, I have a few comments. 1. Cattle and sheep are slaughtered in millions every year in abattoirs around the world. In theory, their horn, hide and hooves could be used as a source of gelatin, but WHY do we not see these gelatin forms feature in the Chinese Pharmacopeia? Is it that I have missed that, or do the Chinese actually put little value on those ingredients? 2. In CHM, several animal ingredients (Biejiajiao, Ejiao, Guibanjiao, Lujiaojiao, Lurongjiao, etc) contain various forms of gelatin but their claimed TCM actions are NOT identical. I understand that TCM attributes different Qi forms and characteristics (at least as regards the Five Elements) to each animal (and meat) type. Could this be why deer, asses and turtles/tortoises etc are reckoned to be of special value in TCM?: i.e. that it is not the GELATIN, but the special Qi of the donor species that is effective clinically? As I argued in an earlier post, it is not easy to find a SINGLE non- animal-sourced ingredient that will produce ALL the clinical effects claimed for Ejiao. At least, nobody on these Lists has come up with a perfect match for Ejaio so far! Does the same apply to Biejiajiao, Guibanjiao, Lujiaojiao, Lurongjiao, etc? Can anyone suggest perfect alternatives to them? Best regards, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2004 Report Share Posted April 19, 2004 Hi All, & Hi Stefanie Susan wrote: " Is Ejiao not mainly gelatin? " Stefanie replied: > Yes, it is gelatinous. But I'd like to explore alternatives to > this. We've mentioned before how important it is to reduce the > exploitation of endangered species (e.g. rhincerus horn...) but I > think we should be avoding the use of animal parts in medicinal > preparations too. For one thing, there is the risk of > transmissible disease. But mostly for the sake of sacrificing > animals unnecessarily. It just doesn't feel right to me. If we want > to 'spread the word' about alternative practices in the Western > world, I think we should consider replacing unmarketable and > unnecessary animal ingredients. I think we should be spreading the > word back to the source too. The Asian market for animal > ingredients remains high. Rhinocerus horn is just the beginning. > Think of the extremely endangered wild gorillas and other primates > that are massacred because Africans, for example, think that their > hands possess magic powers. So, I would really appreciate hearing > of an alternative for Ass Hide Glue in formulas intended to treat > behavior problems in pets. Sure would appreciate a reply! Stefanie As many colleagues wish, it would be desirable to find effective substitutes for animal ingredients in medicine. Also, Stefanie has a valid point against using ANY animal ingredients unless we are certain that they are free of risk of transmissable diseases. However, I have a few comments. 1. Cattle and sheep are slaughtered in millions every year in abattoirs around the world. In theory, their horn, hide and hooves could be used as a source of gelatin, but WHY do we not see these gelatin forms feature in the Chinese Pharmacopeia? Is it that I have missed that, or do the Chinese actually put little value on those ingredients? 2. In CHM, several animal ingredients (Biejiajiao, Ejiao, Guibanjiao, Lujiaojiao, Lurongjiao, etc) contain various forms of gelatin but their claimed TCM actions are NOT identical. I understand that TCM attributes different Qi forms and characteristics (at least as regards the Five Elements) to each animal (and meat) type. Could this be why deer, asses and turtles/tortoises etc are reckoned to be of special value in TCM?: i.e. that it is not the GELATIN, but the special Qi of the donor species that is effective clinically? As I argued in an earlier post, it is not easy to find a SINGLE non- animal-sourced ingredient that will produce ALL the clinical effects claimed for Ejiao. At least, nobody on these Lists has come up with a perfect match for Ejaio so far! Does the same apply to Biejiajiao, Guibanjiao, Lujiaojiao, Lurongjiao, etc? Can anyone suggest perfect alternatives to them? Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2004 Report Share Posted April 19, 2004 Hi All, & Hi Julie, Julie wrote: > Is not ass-hide glue made from donkeys who have died? You know, > when a horse got old, you would say you were sending him to the > glue-factory? Food Hygiene laws in most (if not all) civilised societies, do NOT allow dead animals to enter an abattoir. Such animals are destroyed, or converted to fertiliser or other products unfit for human consumption. > So how is it sacrificing animals unnecessarily? Julie For animal products (such as meat or gelatin) to be acceptable as human food or supplements, the donor animals must be certified as healthy before slaughter in an approved abattoir. Therefore, if we want to use such products as supplements, we must kill the animals. If the PUBLIC knew that product X contained ass-hide (or horse hide), the reaction could be very negative for herbalism. Most people will not eat meat from horses of donkeys, not to mention their processed hides or hooves! Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2004 Report Share Posted April 19, 2004 In a message dated 4/19/04 10:34:59 AM, writes: > > If the PUBLIC knew that product X contained ass-hide (or horse > hide), the reaction could be very negative for herbalism. Most > people will not eat meat from horses of donkeys, not to mention > their processed hides or hooves! > Actually, every one of my patients who use ass glue, which it says in English on the box, know exactly what it is they are taking, and why. Some even get to a point where they don't mind the taste, and in fact my wife used it for low platlet count prior to the home midwife assisted delivery of our second child. Less bleeding than the first. David Molony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2004 Report Share Posted April 19, 2004 On Apr 18, 2004, at 5:18 PM, wrote: > Could this be why deer, asses and turtles/tortoises etc are > reckoned to be of special value in TCM?: i.e. that it is not the > GELATIN, but the special Qi of the donor species that is effective > clinically? Yes, of course. There's a big difference between a deer and a turtle. Although both the antler and shell may contain gelatin there are some profound differences between these two animals. They both were discussed in terms of their Yang and Yin tonifying properties by one of my teachers and I'd like to describe some of these differences. Deer antler arises from the top of the head, this is the most Yang portion of the body. Specifically, from the region dominated by the Du Mai, or the Sea of Yang. It grows out of an animal that is very watchful and light, easily startled or disturbed, all Yang properties. It comes from the male of the species, another Yang attribute. It grows in the springtime, during the Shao Yang period of the year. Yang. The turtle shell that is used medicinally is the underside of a turtle. The underside is Yin. I realize that what we use may not actually be the underside, but I'm talking about traditional functions, not economic realities. The turtle is as Yin as the deer is Yang. It likes to hide in its shell. The hiding nature is very Yin. It lives in the water, another Yin environment. It moves slowly. This too is Yin. So, although the fundamental chemical constituents of deer antler and turtle shell may both give rise to some gelatin, the growth environment and spirit of the animal is quite different indeed. -- Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. -Adlai Stevenson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2004 Report Share Posted April 19, 2004 , Al Stone <alstone@b...> wrote: > Deer antler arises from the top of the head, this is the most Yang > portion of the body. Specifically, from the region dominated by the Du > Mai, or the Sea of Yang. It grows out of an animal that is very > watchful and light, easily startled or disturbed, all Yang properties. Du mai? Maybe for a unicorn. Deer antlers are off to the side, related more to the UB or GB channels. Brian C. Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2004 Report Share Posted April 19, 2004 Hi All, & Hi Julie, Julie wrote: > Is not ass-hide glue made from donkeys who have died? You know, > when a horse got old, you would say you were sending him to the > glue-factory? Food Hygiene laws in most (if not all) civilised societies, do NOT allow dead animals to enter an abattoir. Such animals are destroyed, or converted to fertiliser or other products unfit for human consumption. > So how is it sacrificing animals unnecessarily? Julie For animal products (such as meat or gelatin) to be acceptable as human food or supplements, the donor animals must be certified as healthy before slaughter in an approved abattoir. Therefore, if we want to use such products as supplements, we must kill the animals. If the PUBLIC knew that product X contained ass-hide (or horse hide), the reaction could be very negative for herbalism. Most people will not eat meat from horses of donkeys, not to mention their processed hides or hooves! Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2004 Report Share Posted April 19, 2004 On Apr 19, 2004, at 1:50 PM, bcataiji wrote: > , Al Stone <alstone@b...> > wrote: > >> Deer antler arises from the top of the head, this is the most Yang >> portion of the body. Specifically, from the region dominated by the Du >> Mai, or the Sea of Yang. It grows out of an animal that is very >> watchful and light, easily startled or disturbed, all Yang properties. > > Du mai? Maybe for a unicorn. Deer antlers are off to the side, > related more to the UB or GB channels. Yeah, I hear ya, but remember that the UB and the Du Mai are really tight. This gives rise to a region of domination like the forehead is dominated by the Stomach channel even through the GB channel makes a quick jog into the forehead. The UB channel is where you'll find the Du Mai's master point, and only (?) the Du Mai and the UB are said to enter the brain. Additionally there are plenty of UB and Du Mai crossing points. -- Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. -Adlai Stevenson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2004 Report Share Posted April 19, 2004 Hi Al & Brian, Great comments; most helpful. Phil >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wrote: > Could this be why deer, asses and turtles/tortoises etc are > reckoned to be of special value in TCM?: i.e. that it is not the > GELATIN, but the special Qi of the donor species that is effective > clinically? Al Stone replied: Yes, of course. There's a big difference between a deer and a turtle. Although both the antler and shell may contain gelatin there are some profound differences between these two animals. They both were discussed in terms of their Yang and Yin tonifying properties by one of my teachers and I'd like to describe some of these differences. Deer antler arises from the top of the head, this is the most Yang portion of the body. Specifically, from the region dominated by the Du Mai, or the Sea of Yang. It grows out of an animal that is very watchful and light, easily startled or disturbed, all Yang properties. It comes from the male of the species, another Yang attribute. It grows in the springtime, during the Shao Yang period of the year. Yang. The turtle shell that is used medicinally is the underside of a turtle. The underside is Yin. I realize that what we use may not actually be the underside, but I'm talking about traditional functions, not economic realities. The turtle is as Yin as the deer is Yang. It likes to hide in its shell. The hiding nature is very Yin. It lives in the water, another Yin environment. It moves slowly. This too is Yin. So, although the fundamental chemical constituents of deer antler and turtle shell may both give rise to some gelatin, the growth environment and spirit of the animal is quite different indeed. Al Stone, L.Ac. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brian Allen replied: Du mai? Maybe for a unicorn. Deer antlers are off to the side, related more to the UB or GB channels. Brian C. Allen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Al replied: remember that the UB and the Du Mai are really tight. This gives rise to a region of domination like the forehead is dominated by the Stomach channel even through the GB channel makes a quick jog into the forehead. The UB channel is where you'll find the Du Mai's master point, and only (?) the Du Mai and the UB are said to enter the brain. Additionally there are plenty of UB and Du Mai crossing points. Al Stone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2004 Report Share Posted April 20, 2004 Hi Al & Brian, Great comments; most helpful. Phil >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wrote: > Could this be why deer, asses and turtles/tortoises etc are > reckoned to be of special value in TCM?: i.e. that it is not the > GELATIN, but the special Qi of the donor species that is effective > clinically? Al Stone replied: Yes, of course. There's a big difference between a deer and a turtle. Although both the antler and shell may contain gelatin there are some profound differences between these two animals. They both were discussed in terms of their Yang and Yin tonifying properties by one of my teachers and I'd like to describe some of these differences. Deer antler arises from the top of the head, this is the most Yang portion of the body. Specifically, from the region dominated by the Du Mai, or the Sea of Yang. It grows out of an animal that is very watchful and light, easily startled or disturbed, all Yang properties. It comes from the male of the species, another Yang attribute. It grows in the springtime, during the Shao Yang period of the year. Yang. The turtle shell that is used medicinally is the underside of a turtle. The underside is Yin. I realize that what we use may not actually be the underside, but I'm talking about traditional functions, not economic realities. The turtle is as Yin as the deer is Yang. It likes to hide in its shell. The hiding nature is very Yin. It lives in the water, another Yin environment. It moves slowly. This too is Yin. So, although the fundamental chemical constituents of deer antler and turtle shell may both give rise to some gelatin, the growth environment and spirit of the animal is quite different indeed. Al Stone, L.Ac. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brian Allen replied: Du mai? Maybe for a unicorn. Deer antlers are off to the side, related more to the UB or GB channels. Brian C. Allen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Al replied: remember that the UB and the Du Mai are really tight. This gives rise to a region of domination like the forehead is dominated by the Stomach channel even through the GB channel makes a quick jog into the forehead. The UB channel is where you'll find the Du Mai's master point, and only (?) the Du Mai and the UB are said to enter the brain. Additionally there are plenty of UB and Du Mai crossing points. Al Stone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2004 Report Share Posted April 20, 2004 Thanks Phil, Brilliant gathering of essential information here. I hesitated to reply as I work in this area ... and it's best to speak less. If you speak to the agronomists and lineage practitioners of particular areas, the practices of how to gather various ingredients are not at all what you might imagine. In some places turtle shells are cheap indeed, the recycled ventral plates after the meat has been sold ... live from the marketplace. The traditions are old, and Al and Brian did a nice job. Another detail that you must know from the animal anatomy is that the ventral plates of turtles are kind of like ribs but not really. They are the lateral vertebral processes that grow around the front of the body and merge like a great sternum. That's the " throw away " part for cleaning and cooking turtles but the important part for CM. Kind of works for everybody. Nothing wasted. One agronomist that I work with is from Shandong near the most famous place where Ejiao is produced in Yanggu County. He says the traditional preparation methods there are more than 2,000 years old at one particular site. Thanks again for your gathering and for Al's and Brian's contributions. Respectfully, Emmanuel Segmen - Cc: traditional_Chinese_Medicine ; vBMA Monday, April 19, 2004 8:15 PM Re: Ejiao (Ass Hide Glue) Substitute? Hi Al & Brian, Great comments; most helpful. Phil >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wrote: > Could this be why deer, asses and turtles/tortoises etc are > reckoned to be of special value in TCM?: i.e. that it is not the > GELATIN, but the special Qi of the donor species that is effective > clinically? Al Stone replied: Yes, of course. There's a big difference between a deer and a turtle. Although both the antler and shell may contain gelatin there are some profound differences between these two animals. They both were discussed in terms of their Yang and Yin tonifying properties by one of my teachers and I'd like to describe some of these differences. Deer antler arises from the top of the head, this is the most Yang portion of the body. Specifically, from the region dominated by the Du Mai, or the Sea of Yang. It grows out of an animal that is very watchful and light, easily startled or disturbed, all Yang properties. It comes from the male of the species, another Yang attribute. It grows in the springtime, during the Shao Yang period of the year. Yang. The turtle shell that is used medicinally is the underside of a turtle. The underside is Yin. I realize that what we use may not actually be the underside, but I'm talking about traditional functions, not economic realities. The turtle is as Yin as the deer is Yang. It likes to hide in its shell. The hiding nature is very Yin. It lives in the water, another Yin environment. It moves slowly. This too is Yin. So, although the fundamental chemical constituents of deer antler and turtle shell may both give rise to some gelatin, the growth environment and spirit of the animal is quite different indeed. Al Stone, L.Ac. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brian Allen replied: Du mai? Maybe for a unicorn. Deer antlers are off to the side, related more to the UB or GB channels. Brian C. Allen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Al replied: remember that the UB and the Du Mai are really tight. This gives rise to a region of domination like the forehead is dominated by the Stomach channel even through the GB channel makes a quick jog into the forehead. The UB channel is where you'll find the Du Mai's master point, and only (?) the Du Mai and the UB are said to enter the brain. Additionally there are plenty of UB and Du Mai crossing points. Al Stone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. To change your email delivery settings, Chinese Medicine/ click 'edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being delivered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2004 Report Share Posted April 20, 2004 Oh. I meant to say the ventral plates of the turtle shell form out of the transverse processes of the vertebra (not the lateral processes). Sorry. Emmanuel Segmen Thanks Phil, Brilliant gathering of essential information here. I hesitated to reply as I work in this area ... and it's best to speak less. If you speak to the agronomists and lineage practitioners of particular areas, the practices of how to gather various ingredients are not at all what you might imagine. In some places turtle shells are cheap indeed, the recycled ventral plates after the meat has been sold ... live from the marketplace. The traditions are old, and Al and Brian did a nice job. Another detail that you must know from the animal anatomy is that the ventral plates of turtles are kind of like ribs but not really. They are the lateral vertebral processes that grow around the front of the body and merge like a great sternum. That's the " throw away " part for cleaning and cooking turtles but the important part for CM. Kind of works for everybody. Nothing wasted. One agronomist that I work with is from Shandong near the most famous place where Ejiao is produced in Yanggu County. He says the traditional preparation methods there are more than 2,000 years old at one particular site. Thanks again for your gathering and for Al's and Brian's contributions. Respectfully, Emmanuel Segmen - Cc: traditional_Chinese_Medicine ; vBMA Monday, April 19, 2004 8:15 PM Re: Ejiao (Ass Hide Glue) Substitute? Hi Al & Brian, Great comments; most helpful. Phil >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wrote: > Could this be why deer, asses and turtles/tortoises etc are > reckoned to be of special value in TCM?: i.e. that it is not the > GELATIN, but the special Qi of the donor species that is effective > clinically? Al Stone replied: Yes, of course. There's a big difference between a deer and a turtle. Although both the antler and shell may contain gelatin there are some profound differences between these two animals. They both were discussed in terms of their Yang and Yin tonifying properties by one of my teachers and I'd like to describe some of these differences. Deer antler arises from the top of the head, this is the most Yang portion of the body. Specifically, from the region dominated by the Du Mai, or the Sea of Yang. It grows out of an animal that is very watchful and light, easily startled or disturbed, all Yang properties. It comes from the male of the species, another Yang attribute. It grows in the springtime, during the Shao Yang period of the year. Yang. The turtle shell that is used medicinally is the underside of a turtle. The underside is Yin. I realize that what we use may not actually be the underside, but I'm talking about traditional functions, not economic realities. The turtle is as Yin as the deer is Yang. It likes to hide in its shell. The hiding nature is very Yin. It lives in the water, another Yin environment. It moves slowly. This too is Yin. So, although the fundamental chemical constituents of deer antler and turtle shell may both give rise to some gelatin, the growth environment and spirit of the animal is quite different indeed. Al Stone, L.Ac. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brian Allen replied: Du mai? Maybe for a unicorn. Deer antlers are off to the side, related more to the UB or GB channels. Brian C. Allen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Al replied: remember that the UB and the Du Mai are really tight. This gives rise to a region of domination like the forehead is dominated by the Stomach channel even through the GB channel makes a quick jog into the forehead. The UB channel is where you'll find the Du Mai's master point, and only (?) the Du Mai and the UB are said to enter the brain. Additionally there are plenty of UB and Du Mai crossing points. Al Stone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. To change your email delivery settings, Chinese Medicine/ click 'edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being delivered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.