Guest guest Posted April 17, 2004 Report Share Posted April 17, 2004 Hi, As a student at a 5-Element school (Tai Sophia Institute), we were studying AE this past term. I want to add a comment to Karen's and the others. We were told that this is a treatment " in the Worsley tradition " , and there was no comment about Japanese origin (as there was for Akebanes). Of course, that doesn't mean J.R. Worsley didn't learn it from Japanese practitoners.... The point order we were taught puts BL-15 last, after the other sections have cleared. BL-13 BL-14 test needle BL-18 Bl-20 test needle BL-23 test needle and after those clear Bl-15 test needle Sue From the digest: Message: 21 Fri, 16 Apr 2004 17:04:19 +0100 Karen <tryfan Re: treating phlegm/AE Glad to see this come up in discussion here. AE is the first treatment given a new patient in Five Element practice - remove bad qi (which does indeed spread across the K'e cycle) before beginning to move energy around. I recently did one on a patient who felt she had lost all energy, felt almost immobilised, unable to think clearly. She had AE in Lu and Pc that took 1 and 1/2 hours to clear. After the treatment her pulses went from almost imperceptible to -1 - and continue to hold there. Karen Persis wrote: > Hello again > Indeed, the test is the treatment. Needles should be > retained for as long as the redness shows, so sometimes > this may mean more than one session depending on how much > toxicity that patient presents. > > Know what you mean about the Japanese focus, interesting > and often inspiring. > > Kind regards > Persis > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2004 Report Share Posted April 20, 2004 Hi Susan As I said in an eariler text - I wasn't completely sure where AE originated. It may well be part of the Worsley tradition but have found in practise better to use less control needles. And to only insert Bl15 (He) IF Bl13 (Lu) and/or Bl14 (Pc) shows with erythemas. Otherwise it is not used - the main reason for this is to allow the Heart (Supreme Control) to regain its own control over the other organs - as a sign of respect - in other words, we (us collectively) should not need to 'touch' the Emperor unless he is in need directly and then only with full assistance from the Lungs and the Pericardium. BW Persis Susan Atlas [susan.atlas] 17 April 2004 05:51 Chinese Medicine Re: AE Treatment Hi, As a student at a 5-Element school (Tai Sophia Institute), we were studying AE this past term. I want to add a comment to Karen's and the others. We were told that this is a treatment " in the Worsley tradition " , and there was no comment about Japanese origin (as there was for Akebanes). Of course, that doesn't mean J.R. Worsley didn't learn it from Japanese practitoners.... The point order we were taught puts BL-15 last, after the other sections have cleared. BL-13 BL-14 test needle BL-18 Bl-20 test needle BL-23 test needle and after those clear Bl-15 test needle Sue From the digest: Message: 21 Fri, 16 Apr 2004 17:04:19 +0100 Karen <tryfan Re: treating phlegm/AE Glad to see this come up in discussion here. AE is the first treatment given a new patient in Five Element practice - remove bad qi (which does indeed spread across the K'e cycle) before beginning to move energy around. I recently did one on a patient who felt she had lost all energy, felt almost immobilised, unable to think clearly. She had AE in Lu and Pc that took 1 and 1/2 hours to clear. After the treatment her pulses went from almost imperceptible to -1 - and continue to hold there. Karen Persis wrote: > Hello again > Indeed, the test is the treatment. Needles should be > retained for as long as the redness shows, so sometimes > this may mean more than one session depending on how much > toxicity that patient presents. > > Know what you mean about the Japanese focus, interesting > and often inspiring. > > Kind regards > Persis > > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. To change your email delivery settings, Chinese Medicine/ click 'edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being delivered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2004 Report Share Posted April 20, 2004 Persis: ... but have found in practise better to use less control needles. And to only insert Bl15 (He) IF Bl13 (Lu) and/or Bl14 (Pc) shows with erythemas. Otherwise it is not used - the main reason for this is to allow the Heart (Supreme Control) to regain its own control over the other organs - as a sign of respect - in other words, we (us collectively) should not need to 'touch' the Emperor unless he is in need directly and then only with full assistance from the Lungs and the Pericardium. > > I tend to agree with Persis. I applied the protocol to 2 cases, and by the feel of things as they developed, by the 2nd case, I reduced the test needles to 1 and got by capitally. In both cases the LU and PC shu points showed erythema, oddly in both cases the L more than R. So I am going to hone it down to points, in this sequence: Left to right: BL13 - BL13________________ LU shu BL14 - BL14________________ PC shu BL18 - BL18________________ LV shu BL20 - BL20________________ SP shu BL23 - BL23________________ KI shu If erythema at LU & PC, then BL15 - BL15________________ HTshu. Sharing results: 1. In both cases erythema extended to between .2 cm to 1 cm. 2. Main points +ve were LU and PC shu. 3. These showed the most wide erythema. 4. Some points became +ve later in the treatment, such as KI and LV shu. 5. These showed more like a concentric redness around needle insertion. 6. Test needle remained -ve. Remarkably, in one case a very stubborn scleral capillary at Shaoyang position cleared to the extent that it receded from both ends. A day or two later, it tended to return, showing the need for more treatments. In one case a deep seated symptom at the palate healed. It still has, even treatmnet has not been repeated. I want to sit and study this AE system out. This apparently a powerful protocol which needs to be used more. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2004 Report Share Posted April 21, 2004 Hi Susan and BW! Neither of you bothered to expand the acronym. Acronyms are confusing. What do you mean by AE? Is this the Aggressive Energy way back a week or so ago? At 09:57 AM 4/20/2004, you wrote: >Hi Susan >As I said in an eariler text - I wasn't completely sure where AE originated. >It may well be part of the Worsley tradition but have found in practise >better to use less control needles. And to only insert Bl15 (He) IF Bl13 >(Lu) and/or Bl14 (Pc) shows with erythemas. Otherwise it is not used - the >main reason for this is to allow the Heart (Supreme Control) to regain its >own control over the other organs - as a sign of respect - in other words, >we (us collectively) should not need to 'touch' the Emperor unless he is in >need directly and then only with full assistance from the Lungs and the >Pericardium. > >BW >Persis Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2004 Report Share Posted April 21, 2004 Dr K What feedback have you received from the patient(s)? Persis Dr. Holmes Keikobad [acuheal] 20 April 2004 17:31 Chinese Medicine Re: AE Treatment Persis: ... but have found in practise better to use less control needles. And to only insert Bl15 (He) IF Bl13 (Lu) and/or Bl14 (Pc) shows with erythemas. Otherwise it is not used - the main reason for this is to allow the Heart (Supreme Control) to regain its own control over the other organs - as a sign of respect - in other words, we (us collectively) should not need to 'touch' the Emperor unless he is in need directly and then only with full assistance from the Lungs and the Pericardium. > > I tend to agree with Persis. I applied the protocol to 2 cases, and by the feel of things as they developed, by the 2nd case, I reduced the test needles to 1 and got by capitally. In both cases the LU and PC shu points showed erythema, oddly in both cases the L more than R. So I am going to hone it down to points, in this sequence: Left to right: BL13 - BL13________________ LU shu BL14 - BL14________________ PC shu BL18 - BL18________________ LV shu BL20 - BL20________________ SP shu BL23 - BL23________________ KI shu If erythema at LU & PC, then BL15 - BL15________________ HTshu. Sharing results: 1. In both cases erythema extended to between .2 cm to 1 cm. 2. Main points +ve were LU and PC shu. 3. These showed the most wide erythema. 4. Some points became +ve later in the treatment, such as KI and LV shu. 5. These showed more like a concentric redness around needle insertion. 6. Test needle remained -ve. Remarkably, in one case a very stubborn scleral capillary at Shaoyang position cleared to the extent that it receded from both ends. A day or two later, it tended to return, showing the need for more treatments. In one case a deep seated symptom at the palate healed. It still has, even treatmnet has not been repeated. I want to sit and study this AE system out. This apparently a powerful protocol which needs to be used more. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. To change your email delivery settings, Chinese Medicine/ click 'edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being delivered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2004 Report Share Posted April 21, 2004 Persis: What feedback have you received from the patient(s)? > > That it seems to heal deep rooted symptoms and I can see chronic signs shift towards healing, but that this needs consistency of treatment. The most remarkable shift was in one case when scleral capillaries in outer corner of eye which had been there for a long time and which signified Heat in Shaoyang, began to fade. As the treatment was not continued, this seemed to revert. I plan to continue and then will assess and report. But the protocol is profound and I thank you for introducing it. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. - " Persis " <pointedneedle <Chinese Medicine > Wednesday, April 21, 2004 1:53 AM RE: AE Treatment Dr. Holmes Keikobad [acuheal] 20 April 2004 17:31 Chinese Medicine Re: AE Treatment Persis: ... but have found in practise better to use less control needles. And to only insert Bl15 (He) IF Bl13 (Lu) and/or Bl14 (Pc) shows with erythemas. Otherwise it is not used - the main reason for this is to allow the Heart (Supreme Control) to regain its own control over the other organs - as a sign of respect - in other words, we (us collectively) should not need to 'touch' the Emperor unless he is in need directly and then only with full assistance from the Lungs and the Pericardium. > > I tend to agree with Persis. I applied the protocol to 2 cases, and by the feel of things as they developed, by the 2nd case, I reduced the test needles to 1 and got by capitally. In both cases the LU and PC shu points showed erythema, oddly in both cases the L more than R. So I am going to hone it down to points, in this sequence: Left to right: BL13 - BL13________________ LU shu BL14 - BL14________________ PC shu BL18 - BL18________________ LV shu BL20 - BL20________________ SP shu BL23 - BL23________________ KI shu If erythema at LU & PC, then BL15 - BL15________________ HTshu. Sharing results: 1. In both cases erythema extended to between .2 cm to 1 cm. 2. Main points +ve were LU and PC shu. 3. These showed the most wide erythema. 4. Some points became +ve later in the treatment, such as KI and LV shu. 5. These showed more like a concentric redness around needle insertion. 6. Test needle remained -ve. Remarkably, in one case a very stubborn scleral capillary at Shaoyang position cleared to the extent that it receded from both ends. A day or two later, it tended to return, showing the need for more treatments. In one case a deep seated symptom at the palate healed. It still has, even treatmnet has not been repeated. I want to sit and study this AE system out. This apparently a powerful protocol which needs to be used more. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. To change your email delivery settings, Chinese Medicine/ click 'edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being delivered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2004 Report Share Posted April 21, 2004 This is a deep treatment. Most of my patients (usually those who show no obvious signs of AE) are very relaxed after tx, and often have a very good night sleep. One patient with frozen shoulder experienced '75% improvement in pain' (her words) after AE drain. Another reported significant lifting of fatigue, a feeling of coming back to normal. Another with chronic sinus congestion reported an almost immediate onset of sinuses draining. It is also the *first* treatment, to be followed up with whatever is appropriate to the particular patient. Good stuff. Karen Dr. Holmes Keikobad wrote: > Persis: > What feedback have you received from the patient(s)? > > > > > That it seems to heal deep rooted symptoms and I can see chronic > signs shift towards healing, but that this needs consistency of treatment. > > The most remarkable shift was in one case when scleral capillaries in > outer > corner of eye which had been there for a long time and which signified > Heat in Shaoyang, began to fade. As the treatment was not continued, this > seemed to revert. > > I plan to continue and then will assess and report. > > But the protocol is profound and I thank you for introducing it. > > Dr. Holmes Keikobad > MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ > www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. > NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. > - > " Persis " <pointedneedle > <Chinese Medicine > > Wednesday, April 21, 2004 1:53 AM > RE: AE Treatment > > > > > > Dr. Holmes Keikobad [acuheal] > 20 April 2004 17:31 > Chinese Medicine > Re: AE Treatment > > Persis: ... but have found in practise better to use less control needles. > And to only insert Bl15 (He) IF Bl13 (Lu) and/or Bl14 (Pc) shows with > erythemas. Otherwise it is not used - the main reason for this is to allow > the Heart (Supreme Control) to regain its own control over the other > organs - > as a sign of respect - in other words, we (us collectively) should not > need > to > 'touch' the Emperor unless he is in need directly and then only with full > assistance > from the Lungs and the Pericardium. > > > > > I tend to agree with Persis. > > I applied the protocol to 2 cases, and by the feel of things as they > developed, by > the 2nd case, I reduced the test needles to 1 and got by capitally. > > In both cases the LU and PC shu points showed erythema, oddly in both > cases > the L > more than R. > > So I am going to hone it down to points, in this sequence: > > Left to right: > > BL13 - BL13________________ LU shu > BL14 - BL14________________ PC shu > BL18 - BL18________________ LV shu > BL20 - BL20________________ SP shu > BL23 - BL23________________ KI shu > > If erythema at LU & PC, then > BL15 - BL15________________ HTshu. > > Sharing results: > 1. In both cases erythema extended to between .2 cm to 1 cm. > 2. Main points +ve were LU and PC shu. > 3. These showed the most wide erythema. > 4. Some points became +ve later in the treatment, such as KI and LV shu. > 5. These showed more like a concentric redness around needle insertion. > 6. Test needle remained -ve. > > Remarkably, in one case a very stubborn scleral capillary at Shaoyang > position > cleared to the extent that it receded from both ends. > > A day or two later, it tended to return, showing the need for more > treatments. > > In one case a deep seated symptom at the palate healed. It still has, even > treatmnet > has not been repeated. > > I want to sit and study this AE system out. This apparently a powerful > protocol > which needs to be used more. > > Dr. Holmes Keikobad > MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ > www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. > NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. > > > > > > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, > spam messages,flame another member or swear. > > To change your email delivery settings, > Chinese Medicine/ click 'edit my > membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. > > If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being > delivered. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2004 Report Share Posted April 21, 2004 Karen: This is a deep treatment. Most of my patients (usually those who show no obvious signs of AE) are very relaxed after tx, and often have a very good night sleep. One patient with frozen shoulder experienced '75% improvement in pain' (her words) after AE drain. Another reported significant lifting of fatigue, a feeling of coming back to normal. Another with chronic sinus congestion reported an almost immediate onset of sinuses draining. It is also the *first* treatment, to be followed up with whatever is appropriate to the particular patient. > > The reason for this profound effect intrigues me. One could be elemental: We first clear PC - LU aggressive cycle bond. The word 'aggressive' comes up in the description of the ko cycle, and in the name of the therapy. Is that the link? Next the LV - ST link and lastly the Water - Fire bond. One more explanation is that these are TW links: PC - LU for upper warmer LV - SP for middle warmer K - HT for lower warmer. The sequence suggests that we are clearing the warmers from above to below. If this is an externalizing therapy, we seem to be exiting toxins, evil qi, first from the topmost burner with the organ which has the highest placement, LU; to K, which has the lowest. Or in the spatial sense we are going from lateral-most plane to the most central core: LU runs in the wei, and is placed just under the ribs PC links with SJ which with GB rules the lateral octahedral plane LV runs, with SP a fairly central course, ending up in the vertex. K in one sense is the innermost energetic core, and in another the lowest foundation on which every thing else stands. How does this sound? Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2004 Report Share Posted April 21, 2004 I have never looked at it the way you have (below), don't know why. I've just assumed that it drains evil qi (which could be just qi that's not where it belongs which is why the treatment is often done after someone has had anesthesia). Presumably one organ system gets 'infected' and then I'm told it moves through the other systems via the K'e cycle, which is why it is so important to do this as a first treatment before the practitioner starts moving qi around. I don't tend to think of the K'e cycle as agressive; it is as necessary for systems to be controlled as it is for them to be nurtured so that there is homeostasis. There does seem to be a TW link - and maybe that''s why it is important to place dummy needles in each Burner? - but I defer to Five Element practitioners who have more experience than I do. ;-) K homi kaikobad wrote: > Karen: > This is a deep treatment. Most of my patients (usually those who show no > obvious signs of AE) are very relaxed after tx, and often have a very > good night sleep. One patient with frozen shoulder experienced '75% > improvement in pain' (her words) after AE drain. Another reported > significant lifting of fatigue, a feeling of coming back to normal. > Another with chronic sinus congestion reported an almost immediate onset > of sinuses draining. > > It is also the *first* treatment, to be followed up with whatever is > appropriate to the particular patient. > > > > > The reason for this profound effect intrigues me. > > One could be elemental: > We first clear PC - LU aggressive cycle bond. The word 'aggressive' > comes up > in the description of the ko cycle, and in the name of the therapy. Is > that > the link? > > Next the LV - ST link and lastly the Water - Fire bond. > > One more explanation is that these are TW links: > PC - LU for upper warmer > LV - SP for middle warmer > K - HT for lower warmer. > > The sequence suggests that we are clearing the warmers from above to > below. > > If this is an externalizing therapy, we seem to be exiting toxins, > evil qi, > first > from the topmost burner with the organ which has the highest > placement, LU; > to K, which has the lowest. > > Or in the spatial sense we are going from lateral-most plane to the most > central core: > > LU runs in the wei, and is placed just under the ribs > PC links with SJ which with GB rules the lateral octahedral plane > > LV runs, with SP a fairly central course, ending up in the vertex. > > K in one sense is the innermost energetic core, and in another the lowest > foundation on which every thing else stands. > > How does this sound? > > Dr. Holmes Keikobad > MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ > www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. > NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. > > > > > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, > religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. > > To change your email delivery settings, > Chinese Medicine/ click > 'edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. > > If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being > delivered. > > > > ------ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2004 Report Share Posted April 21, 2004 susan, Could you elaborate on what the " test needle " refers to ? > The point order we were taught puts BL-15 last, after the other sections > have cleared. > BL-13 > BL-14 > test needle > BL-18 > Bl-20 > test needle > BL-23 > test needle > and after those clear > Bl-15 > test needle Also, the following is lifted from " in the footsteps of the yellow emperor " p. 201. AE = aggressive energy. LA = leamington acupuncture, which I understand is essentially equivalent to five element. 9. AGGRESSiVE ENERGY. Like Demonic Possession, the term Aggressive Energy or AE exists in LA parlane, but not in TCM. Like Possession, AE constitutes a " block " precluding Five Element acupuncture treatment, and is considered a foreign type of energy that has become mixed in with the individual's own normal energy. In Chapter Five I discussed the concept of AE and established that this term was coined by Jacques Lavier, one of Worsley's teachers as a translation of the Chinese term xie qi more commonly translated as Perverse or Evil Qi. Lavier's unique teachings about xie qi apparently derive from an oral tradition in Taiwan based on the teachings of Liu Wan-su, who proposed that ultimately all forms of xie qi would transform to Fire. Lavier mentioned two methods of draining xie qi, only one of which was incorporated into LA. This method involves needling the Back Shu Points (called Associated Effect Points in LA) of the Zang Organs involved, and retaining the needles until all traces of erythema (Fire) have dissipated. Lavier's second method involved draining xie qi from the Five Shu Points . (Five Element Points in LA). While TCM does not describe Aggressive Energy as such, it does make an important distinction between Normal (Zheng Qi) and Perverse (Xie Qi) Energy. --brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2004 Report Share Posted April 21, 2004 Thanks for the info Brian. Best wishes Persis briansbeard [brian_s_beard] 21 April 2004 20:03 Chinese Medicine Re: AE Treatment susan, Could you elaborate on what the " test needle " refers to ? > The point order we were taught puts BL-15 last, after the other sections > have cleared. > BL-13 > BL-14 > test needle > BL-18 > Bl-20 > test needle > BL-23 > test needle > and after those clear > Bl-15 > test needle Also, the following is lifted from " in the footsteps of the yellow emperor " p. 201. AE = aggressive energy. LA = leamington acupuncture, which I understand is essentially equivalent to five element. 9. AGGRESSiVE ENERGY. Like Demonic Possession, the term Aggressive Energy or AE exists in LA parlane, but not in TCM. Like Possession, AE constitutes a " block " precluding Five Element acupuncture treatment, and is considered a foreign type of energy that has become mixed in with the individual's own normal energy. In Chapter Five I discussed the concept of AE and established that this term was coined by Jacques Lavier, one of Worsley's teachers as a translation of the Chinese term xie qi more commonly translated as Perverse or Evil Qi. Lavier's unique teachings about xie qi apparently derive from an oral tradition in Taiwan based on the teachings of Liu Wan-su, who proposed that ultimately all forms of xie qi would transform to Fire. Lavier mentioned two methods of draining xie qi, only one of which was incorporated into LA. This method involves needling the Back Shu Points (called Associated Effect Points in LA) of the Zang Organs involved, and retaining the needles until all traces of erythema (Fire) have dissipated. Lavier's second method involved draining xie qi from the Five Shu Points . (Five Element Points in LA). While TCM does not describe Aggressive Energy as such, it does make an important distinction between Normal (Zheng Qi) and Perverse (Xie Qi) Energy. --brian Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. To change your email delivery settings, Chinese Medicine/ click 'edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being delivered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2004 Report Share Posted April 21, 2004 Hi Brian - can you give more information on the Five Shu Points? I thought there were Element points on all meridians... Karen Persis wrote: > Thanks for the info Brian. > > Best wishes > Persis > > > > briansbeard [brian_s_beard] > 21 April 2004 20:03 > Chinese Medicine > Re: AE Treatment > > susan, > > Could you elaborate on what the " test needle " refers to ? > > > The point order we were taught puts BL-15 last, after the other > sections > > have cleared. > > BL-13 > > BL-14 > > test needle > > BL-18 > > Bl-20 > > test needle > > BL-23 > > test needle > > and after those clear > > Bl-15 > > test needle > > Also, the following is lifted from " in the footsteps of the yellow > emperor " p. 201. AE = aggressive energy. LA = leamington acupuncture, > which I understand is essentially equivalent to five element. > > 9. AGGRESSiVE ENERGY. Like Demonic Possession, the term > Aggressive Energy or AE exists in LA parlane, but not in TCM. Like > Possession, AE constitutes a " block " precluding Five Element > acupuncture treatment, and is considered a foreign type of energy > that has become mixed in with the individual's own normal energy. In > Chapter Five I discussed the concept of AE and established that this > term was coined by Jacques Lavier, one of Worsley's teachers as a > translation of the Chinese term xie qi more commonly translated as > Perverse or Evil Qi. Lavier's unique teachings about xie qi > apparently derive from an oral tradition in Taiwan based on the > teachings of Liu Wan-su, who proposed that ultimately all forms of > xie qi would transform to Fire. Lavier mentioned two methods of > draining xie qi, only one of which was incorporated into LA. This > method involves needling the Back Shu Points (called Associated > Effect Points in LA) of the Zang Organs involved, and retaining the > needles until all traces of erythema (Fire) have dissipated. Lavier's > second method involved draining xie qi from the Five Shu Points . > (Five Element Points in LA). While TCM does not describe Aggressive > Energy as such, it does make an important distinction between Normal > (Zheng Qi) and Perverse (Xie Qi) Energy. > > --brian Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, > spam messages,flame another member or swear. > > To change your email delivery settings, > Chinese Medicine/ click 'edit my > membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. > > If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being > delivered. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2004 Report Share Posted April 22, 2004 karen, You're correct. I think the term five shu is used rather loosely here to mean the five shu points on all meridians, i.e., all 60 of them. There's a few steps that have been left out of how to actually drain the xie qi from the five shu points. Namely, how the diagnosis was done to decide which of the 60 shu points to choose from and how the needling is done. I didn't see it discussed anywhere. Perhaps the sedation points on the yin meridians were used, or needling based on the pulse (pure conjecture). It is very interesting that there were two methods to drain aggressive energy. I'd also be interested to know if anyone else knows how the second is done or why it was dropped. --brian Chinese Medicine , Karen <tryfan@o...> wrote: > Hi Brian - can you give more information on the Five Shu Points? I > thought there were Element points on all meridians... > Karen > Lavier mentioned two methods of > > draining xie qi, only one of which was incorporated into LA. This > > method involves needling the Back Shu Points (called Associated > > Effect Points in LA) of the Zang Organs involved, and retaining the > > needles until all traces of erythema (Fire) have dissipated. Lavier's > > second method involved draining xie qi from the Five Shu Points . > > (Five Element Points in LA). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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