Guest guest Posted April 12, 2004 Report Share Posted April 12, 2004 It's always interesting about band-wagon-jumpers. They come in at the end and TRY to take credit for other people's hard work. Practitioners shouldn't fret over issues they need not concern themselves with as to the costs of such a case as long as it doesn't cost them anything. It didn't appear that ANY of the organizations 'in the hive' have had any real concern with these alleged discriminatory and racketeering activities nor were they contribute monies to such a case. The propaganda that is abounding in the community regarding the FDA ephedra rule.......such as......but not limited to......who is credited with what actions (people and/or organizations should be careful what they wish to try to take credit for).......who Dr.John Chen works for or is a member of what organization........who negotiated with the FDA.........what the rule REALLY means........what the newspaper published..........whew...that pile stacks really high!!!! Heard about one member/leader of an herbal group who after shooting off at the mouth as an expert on the FDA rule.....then admitted to being a no-nothing-novice. Others might follow that great example of character. It should be applauded. It's been fun.....but no time for this right now......more important issues to address while others continue to 'chew the fat' ad nauseum ad infinitum. Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2004 Report Share Posted April 12, 2004 Pam You have taken the comments out of context. This was regarding what others would have you believe regarding their influence over John Chen. It was his confirmation of what I had already discovered as to the FDAs intent and then his subsequent correct evaluation which was then posted. As to having a far too extreme attitude......you are entitled to your opinion. It is interesting though that some don't want to see or hear the real struggles that go on in order to protect. Those who support the hard line would say just the same about those who wish to take the soft and easy route. Sit around a round table and have a nice chat. Nice dream but...this is the real world and unfortuantely that doesn't seem to have worked. John Jay Chapman said very loud and clearly......'People who love soft methods and hate iniquity.......(forget).......that reform consists in agressively taking the bone from the dog. Philosophy will never accomplish the task.' Richard message dated 4/12/2004 1:12:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, needledoc writes: Richard, I sincererly hope you are not accusing John Chen of any misleading information! What are you trying to prove? We are all suppose to be working on this FDA problem together. I believe you accusations have transgressed way out of bounds. Please delete me from your organization. You're attitude is far too extreme. Dr. Pam Price Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2004 Report Share Posted April 12, 2004 Richard, I sincererly hope you are not accusing John Chen of any misleading information! What are you trying to prove? We are all suppose to be working on this FDA problem together. I believe you accusations have transgressed way out of bounds. Please delete me from your organization. You're attitude is far too extreme. Dr. Pam Price Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2004 Report Share Posted April 12, 2004 Attilio - David S. This group is great and it serves a good cause but when it comes to issues of suppression such as are being experienced world-wide......and some wish to hide behind etiquette.........there is nothing much else to say other than maybe there should be a specialized group where these things can be spoken about openly. There are 'key' people who have contacted us back-channel and we are working toward getting the correct job accomplished and for that alone we should all be thankfull. It is a safe bet that all practitioners will enjoy reaping the benefits when the issues are properly handled. But while the battle is in process they don't wish to hear about it nor about what must be experienced in winning the battled. If they so choose to stay ignorant....so be it. Anyone else who wishes to stay in contact can do so...you all have our e-mail. In this way we won't bore or expose the rest to that part of the real world. Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2004 Report Share Posted April 12, 2004 Let me help you out here Richard: As you know Richard ... I do not post much... John Jay Chapman. He said, " People who love soft words and hate inequity forget that reform consists in taking a bone from a dog. " One of the truisms in life, at least from my experience, is that, if you're not in a dogfight you're not engaging in reform, and nothing will truly change. It really is too bad that so many practitioners do not understand that our profession is under attack from many sides. It is interesting that we of the AOMNC are found to be " extreme " and the profession's enemies are found... well let just say less so. I too have little time to post ... much to much to do. Richard, don't waste anytime " deleting Dr. Pam " from the AOMNC roles. There are many other OM organization you can join Pam... just get out your check book... sit back and enjoy the soft words .. you will have paid for the privilege. The AOMNC has free membership. Richard and I pay the current expenses out of out own pockets...... for the good of the " cause " . The AOMNC is in a DOGFIGHT... actually a few of them currently... and from were I sit those " dogs " do not want to give up their " bones " . The very survival of out profession is at stake and those dogs are biting and it is going to be a bit bloody. But the AOMNC has and will continue to cause reform until the OM profession has a level playing field. History (of our profession) is be made here at the AOMNC. As with any organization ...one may not like everything that is said or done. But on the whole great things are happening ... like the National Anti-Trust suit. Those who want to be part of the reform of our profession ... Please join us! Remember... that during the American Revolution only 25% of the colonists were for the independence. The other 75% either did not care or were for the King. There is an OM revolution happening before you eyes... where do you want to stand?? David Sontag, OMD,NDM The other Founder of the AOMNC At 01:27 AM 4/12/2004, you wrote: >Pam > >You have taken the comments out of context. This was regarding what others >would have you believe regarding their influence over John Chen. > >It was his confirmation of what I had already discovered as to the FDAs >intent and then his subsequent correct evaluation which was then posted. > >As to having a far too extreme attitude......you are entitled to your opinion. > >It is interesting though that some don't want to see or hear the real >struggles that go on in order to protect. Those who support the hard line >would say >just the same about those who wish to take the soft and easy route. Sit >around >a round table and have a nice chat. Nice dream but...this is the real world >and unfortuantely that doesn't seem to have worked. > >John Jay Chapman said very loud and clearly......'People who love soft >methods and hate iniquity.......(forget).......that reform consists in >agressively >taking the bone from the dog. Philosophy will never accomplish the task.' > >Richard > >message dated 4/12/2004 1:12:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >needledoc writes: >Richard, I sincererly hope you are not accusing John Chen of any misleading >information! > >What are you trying to prove? We are all suppose to be working on this FDA >problem together. I believe you accusations have transgressed way out of >bounds. > >Please delete me from your organization. You're attitude is far too extreme. > >Dr. Pam Price > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2004 Report Share Posted April 12, 2004 I'm all for the cause, although i have no preference for the King or the republic, but can we please have a little less association plugging. Sorry David to comment on one of your very rare posts, but i thought it was time to call on this. Kind regards, Attilio " David Sontag, DOM " <acudoc@b...> wrote: The AOMNC has free membership. Please join us! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2004 Report Share Posted April 12, 2004 No fight here Attilio... about plugging .... that was not my intent, nor the point of the post. But most of all sorry to " hear " you are on the fence. Kind Regards David At 08:57 AM 4/12/2004, you wrote: >I'm all for the cause, although i have no preference for the King or >the republic, but can we please have a little less association >plugging. Sorry David to comment on one of your very rare posts, but >i thought it was time to call on this. > >Kind regards, > >Attilio > > " David Sontag, DOM " <acudoc@b...> wrote: > >The AOMNC has free membership. Please join us! > > > > > >Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, >spam messages,flame another member or swear. > >To change your email delivery settings, ><Chinese Medicine/>http://groups.yaho\ o.comChinese Medicine/ >click 'edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. > >If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being >delivered. > > > > >---------- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2004 Report Share Posted April 12, 2004 No fight here Attilio... about plugging .... that was not my intent, nor the point of the post. But most of all sorry to " hear " you are on the fence. Kind Regards David At 08:57 AM 4/12/2004, you wrote: >I'm all for the cause, although i have no preference for the King or >the republic, but can we please have a little less association >plugging. Sorry David to comment on one of your very rare posts, but >i thought it was time to call on this. > >Kind regards, > >Attilio > > " David Sontag, DOM " <acudoc@b...> wrote: > >The AOMNC has free membership. Please join us! > > > > > >Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, >spam messages,flame another member or swear. > >To change your email delivery settings, ><Chinese Medicine/>http://groups.yaho\ o.comChinese Medicine/ >click 'edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. > >If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being >delivered. > > > > >---------- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2004 Report Share Posted April 13, 2004 Hi Richard, I am not hiding behind any etiquette and find your comments disappointing. I run this group and do my best to moderate in the interests of ALL, this includes the 75% colonists and 25% republicans as David put it. If I feel that too much promotion has been made then I will moderate it as I must remain neutral as best I can. If you decide to set up your own group, I'll be the first to join. Kind regards Attilio <Chinese Traditional Medicine> Chinese Traditional Medicine acudoc11 [acudoc11] 12 April 2004 17:13 Chinese Medicine Re: Re: TCM Future - anti trust & fda Attilio - David S. This group is great and it serves a good cause but when it comes to issues of suppression such as are being experienced world-wide......and some wish to hide behind etiquette.........there is nothing much else to say other than maybe there should be a specialized group where these things can be spoken about openly. There are 'key' people who have contacted us back-channel and we are working toward getting the correct job accomplished and for that alone we should all be thankfull. It is a safe bet that all practitioners will enjoy reaping the benefits when the issues are properly handled. But while the battle is in process they don't wish to hear about it nor about what must be experienced in winning the battled. If they so choose to stay ignorant....so be it. Anyone else who wishes to stay in contact can do so...you all have our e-mail. In this way we won't bore or expose the rest to that part of the real world. Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2004 Report Share Posted April 13, 2004 Hi David! A great pleasure to hear from you. I think a lot of it is a question of style. Too quiet, no one hears you, loud enough to be heard and a certain number are offended. Such is life. At 08:31 AM 4/12/2004, you wrote: >Let me help you out here Richard: Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2004 Report Share Posted April 13, 2004 Hi Pete; Well , lets see it they think the AOMNC is too loud as they run out of their herbal formulas.... then they just will not be offended.... their lifes and their practices will be upended. Currently the practice of Oriental Medicine no longer exists... just acupuncture.... maybe 20% of this healing art. We .. meaning Richard and I ... can only do so much for the community ... and Richard has told all that would listen what was about to happen... no one was listening ... not the practitioners.... and clearly not the herbs companies. A Simple Administrative challenge would have stopped this rule from going into effect and we have good reason to believe it would have never seen the light of day. NOW... that the rule is in effect things get much harder ... and much more expensive to change. If there ever was a profession with it head up its ..... it is ours. I hear some herb companies plan to reformulate ... what ever they come up with will not be the Chinese Herbology with its thousands of year old traditional formulas.... that work.... just some unproven ideas ... that will no doubt fall short. So the question is what is to be done now.... I think maybe Richard and I will take a bit of a rest and let you all figure it out. David At 12:59 AM 4/13/2004, you wrote: >Hi David! > >A great pleasure to hear from you. I think a lot of it is a question of >style. Too quiet, no one hears you, loud enough to be heard and a certain >number are offended. Such is life. > >At 08:31 AM 4/12/2004, you wrote: > >Let me help you out here Richard: > >Regards, > >Pete > > > >Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, >spam messages,flame another member or swear. > >To change your email delivery settings, ><Chinese Medicine/>http://groups.yaho\ o.comChinese Medicine/ >click 'edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. > >If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being >delivered. > > > > >---------- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2004 Report Share Posted April 13, 2004 Hi Pete; Well , lets see it they think the AOMNC is too loud as they run out of their herbal formulas.... then they just will not be offended.... their lifes and their practices will be upended. Currently the practice of Oriental Medicine no longer exists... just acupuncture.... maybe 20% of this healing art. We .. meaning Richard and I ... can only do so much for the community ... and Richard has told all that would listen what was about to happen... no one was listening ... not the practitioners.... and clearly not the herbs companies. A Simple Administrative challenge would have stopped this rule from going into effect and we have good reason to believe it would have never seen the light of day. NOW... that the rule is in effect things get much harder ... and much more expensive to change. If there ever was a profession with it head up its ..... it is ours. I hear some herb companies plan to reformulate ... what ever they come up with will not be the Chinese Herbology with its thousands of year old traditional formulas.... that work.... just some unproven ideas ... that will no doubt fall short. So the question is what is to be done now.... I think maybe Richard and I will take a bit of a rest and let you all figure it out. David At 12:59 AM 4/13/2004, you wrote: >Hi David! > >A great pleasure to hear from you. I think a lot of it is a question of >style. Too quiet, no one hears you, loud enough to be heard and a certain >number are offended. Such is life. > >At 08:31 AM 4/12/2004, you wrote: > >Let me help you out here Richard: > >Regards, > >Pete > > > >Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, >spam messages,flame another member or swear. > >To change your email delivery settings, ><Chinese Medicine/>http://groups.yaho\ o.comChinese Medicine/ >click 'edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. > >If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being >delivered. > > > > >---------- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2004 Report Share Posted April 14, 2004 Hi David! Well, I have raised the issue with my Congresswoman, Katherine Harris, I think some others have spoken with their representatives as well. It is not over yet. At 10:54 AM 4/13/2004, you wrote: >Hi Pete; > >Well , lets see it they think the AOMNC is too loud as they run out of >their herbal formulas.... then they just will not be offended.... their >lifes and their practices will be upended. Currently the practice of >Oriental Medicine no longer exists... just acupuncture.... maybe 20% of >this healing art. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2004 Report Share Posted April 14, 2004 Hi Attilio In the interests of not flaming there was no reference regarding the comment as to who was 'hiding behind etiquette'...... but for-sure it was not you. It is clearly understood what you must put up with to run this endeavor and you are doing a great job. I don't think anyone is confused where you stand. Unfortunately there appears to be very few who wish to be involved in the nitty gritty of what needs to be done to protect the profession. A number of practitioners have recently thought about setting up such a group but decided it had little function because of the numbers interested and who would actually be active. Those few stay in direct daily contact anyway and have no need to be in such a group. Regards, Richard In a message dated 4/13/2004 12:41:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, attiliodalberto writes: Hi Richard, I am not hiding behind any etiquette and find your comments disappointing. I run this group and do my best to moderate in the interests of ALL, this includes the 75% colonists and 25% republicans as David put it. If I feel that too much promotion has been made then I will moderate it as I must remain neutral as best I can. If you decide to set up your own group, I'll be the first to join. Kind regards Attilio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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