Guest guest Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 One of the symptoms of Spleen Qi sinking is 'tendency for obesity'. I know it's possible to have this pattern without being obese. But can a thin person have Spleen Qi sinking (BMI: " mild underweight " )? Tamas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 I can't think of a particular case where I've seen Spleen qi sinking in a thin person, but I can think of two cases where the patient was of average build, not overweight. The Spleen has three key functions: 1. transformation and transportation or " digestion " 2. holds things up or " structural integrity " (qi sinking) 3. controls the blood, keeps blood in vessels, etc. ( " easy bruising " ) Having #1 leads to obesity, but #1 does not always present with #2 and #3. However, I've seen #3 arise with either #1 or #2. And I've seen all of them appear by themselves too. I think that they can appear together or not. -al. On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 3:54 AM, Tamas <knz wrote: > > > One of the symptoms of Spleen Qi sinking is 'tendency for obesity'. > I know it's possible to have this pattern without being obese. But can a > thin person have Spleen Qi sinking (BMI: " mild underweight " )? > > Tamas > -- , DAOM Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. http://twitter.com/algancao Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 No, I take that back, I do remember a Spleen qi sinking in a thin guy, this man was emaciated with a deep, weak pulse, no appetite and extreme fatigue. He even had spontaneous sweating and low-grade fever. Gave him bu zhong yi qi tang, really happy with myself for catching a so-called " yin-fire " or " qi deficiency heat " . Unfortunately, I never saw him again, though I wish I could have worked with him over time to see how this formula worked for him. -al. On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 8:31 AM, Al Stone <al wrote: > I can't think of a particular case where I've seen Spleen qi sinking in a > thin person, but I can think of two cases where the patient was of average > build, not overweight. > > The Spleen has three key functions: > > 1. transformation and transportation or " digestion " > 2. holds things up or " structural integrity " (qi sinking) > 3. controls the blood, keeps blood in vessels, etc. ( " easy bruising " ) > > Having #1 leads to obesity, but #1 does not always present with #2 and #3. > > However, I've seen #3 arise with either #1 or #2. And I've seen all of them > appear by themselves too. I think that they can appear together or not. > > -al. > > > On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 3:54 AM, Tamas <knz wrote: > >> >> >> One of the symptoms of Spleen Qi sinking is 'tendency for obesity'. >> I know it's possible to have this pattern without being obese. But can a >> thin person have Spleen Qi sinking (BMI: " mild underweight " )? >> >> Tamas >> > > > -- > , DAOM > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > http://twitter.com/algancao > -- , DAOM Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. http://twitter.com/algancao Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 Let me ask a related question > The Spleen has three key functions: > 1. transformation and transportation or " digestion " > ... #1 leads to obesity ... I've never really understand this. I mean, in order to gain weight you need to transform (digest) the food and transport it to the place where it will be stored. If either transformation or transportation is compromised you cannot gain weight. How come then that deficient Spleen Qi may lead to obesity? Is there an intuitive explanation? Tamas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 8:49 AM, Tamas <knz wrote: > > > Let me ask a related question > > > > The Spleen has three key functions: > > 1. transformation and transportation or " digestion " > > ... #1 leads to obesity ... > > I've never really understand this. > > I mean, in order to gain weight you need to transform (digest) the food and > transport it to the place where it will be stored. If either transformation > or transportation is compromised you cannot gain weight. How come then that > deficient Spleen Qi may lead to obesity? Is there an intuitive explanation? > Spleen qi deficiency leads to the production of dampness. Initially, the dampness is like humidity or thin water, but in time it can congeal into thicker substances, ultimately collecting into adipose tissue ( " fat " ). That's it. But because the Spleen " dominates the flesh " it is true that a Spleen qi deficiency can lead to a lack of nutrients getting into the body leading to emaciated weak person too. -al. -- , DAOM Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. http://twitter.com/algancao Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 Hi Al, As a person with a tendency to be overweight I'm wondering if I've a case of Spleen qi sinking. In particular, since I've had my tonsils removed as a child, I wonder if that creates a permanent deficiency related to #2 (structural integrity) below? From a western medicine perspective I've seen studies correlating the removal of tonsils with the onset of obesity a few years later. Sorry I'm not an expert or practitioner and I don't know if I'm jumping into conclusions here but it would be nice to know if there are TCM herbal formulas that would be helpful to help stop the accumulation of pounds... Thanks, Marilia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 11:06 AM, mommymama2000 <mmmpowerswrote: > > > Hi Al, > > As a person with a tendency to be overweight I'm wondering if I've a case > of Spleen qi sinking. > Spleen qi sinking indications look to organ structures that are physically moving close to the ground such as a prolapsed stomach, tilted uterus, maybe a rectum that is coming out of the anus. (strange but true!) Spleen qi or yang deficiency as a cause of weight gain means that your metabolism is sluggish or your digestive is inefficient, or the food you're eating is too rich or you're stressed while eating... there are two many possible causes here. > In particular, since I've had my tonsils removed as a child, I wonder if > that creates a permanent deficiency related to #2 (structural integrity) > below? From a western medicine perspective I've seen studies correlating the > removal of tonsils with the onset of obesity a few years later. > Interesting. I don't think that the tonsils have any particular importance in TCM. I've never heard of this being an issue or associated with Spleen qi deficiency. Not hearing about it doesn't mean anything other than I haven't heard this. > Sorry I'm not an expert or practitioner and I don't know if I'm jumping > into conclusions here but it would be nice to know if there are TCM herbal > formulas that would be helpful to help stop the accumulation of pounds... > Thanks, > There are many treatment principles for weight loss. But they're all contingent upon lining up with your needs. Sometimes a little diuretic is all that is needed, other times Kidney yang helps to warm the entire metabolism, other times Spleen qi is better for weight loss to increase digestive efficiency. Other times it comes down to diet and exercise... So, there's no catch-all weight loss product. However if you would like to get some Si Jun Zi Tang (four gentlemen decoction) or Liu Jun Zi Tang (six gent. decoction) you can take them without any danger of harming yourself. -- , DAOM Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. http://twitter.com/algancao Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 Great question. Wang and Robertson in Applied Channel Theory in speculate on this. We often say that Spleen Qi is responsible for Transformation and Transportation. They break that down into " Spleen Qi is involved in the transformation (removal) of pathothogenic dampness while spleen Yin in involved in providing nourishing fluids and nutritive aspect of the blood " . It seems that this transportation is what keeps the muscles tight and happens outside of the spleen meaning supplying the nutritive Qi/Ying Qi aka blood to the cells. The implication for me is that fluids (blood and dampness) are exchanged at the flesh as well. Failure of this exchange leads to the dampness throughout the body. I view their Spleen Qi as Spleen Yang - removal of damp/fluids and Spleen Yin as they describe above- nourishment. Wang and Robertson are really exploring, these questions have been left unexamined for the most part. I think this gets us closer to understanding the fat tongue - dampness Spleen Qi/Yang Xu and the thin tongue - emaciated Spleen Qi/Yin Xu. Doug Chinese Traditional Medicine , " Tamas " <knz wrote: > > Let me ask a related question > > > The Spleen has three key functions: > > 1. transformation and transportation or " digestion " > > ... #1 leads to obesity ... > > I've never really understand this. > > I mean, in order to gain weight you need to transform (digest) the food and transport it to the place where it will be stored. If either transformation or transportation is compromised you cannot gain weight. How come then that deficient Spleen Qi may lead to obesity? Is there an intuitive explanation? > > Tamas > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2010 Report Share Posted March 26, 2010 Tonsils are part of the lymphatic system which would include the spleen: http://www.lymphomation.org/lymphatic.htm " Lymphatics are found in every part of the body except the central nervous system. The major parts of the system are the bone marrow, spleen, thymus gland, lymph nodes, and the tonsils. Other organs, including the heart, lungs, intestines, liver, and skin also contain lymphatic tissue. " gorhams.dk " The spleen is another important lymphatic organ. It processes lymphocytes from incoming blood. The tonsils and adenoids are secondary lymphatic organs. " I can see that the removal of tonsils could possibly effect the Spleen system, even though in TCM each separate part of the system is not identified as it is in Western medicine. In TCM a practitioner would treat symptoms, but not necessarily identify exactly where the problem is located other than maybe saying there is a Spleen symptom and treating whatever spleen symptom it is with appropriate herbs. Chinese Traditional Medicine , " mommymama2000 " <mmmpowers wrote: > > Hi Al, > > As a person with a tendency to be overweight I'm wondering if I've a case of Spleen qi sinking. In particular, since I've had my tonsils removed as a child, I wonder if that creates a permanent deficiency related to #2 (structural integrity) below? From a western medicine perspective I've seen studies correlating the removal of tonsils with the onset of obesity a few years later. Sorry I'm not an expert or practitioner and I don't know if I'm jumping into conclusions here but it would be nice to know if there are TCM herbal formulas that would be helpful to help stop the accumulation of pounds... Thanks, > > Marilia > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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