Chinese medicine and arrhythmia- again

[Guest guest]

Dear Al and All,

 

My case of atrial fibrillation has become a conflict with eastern/western

methods.

After 9 months of acupuncture, I experienced a period of well-being and

improvement in my overall health that co-incided with my heart rhythm going out

of control. I still felt good but after a month and a half at around 130-140

b.p.m. I became worn out and my energy failed badly. An herbal formula was

designed specially for me in Taiwan due to my continuing low energy. It made my

rhythm problems even worse so I combined it with sotalol (belatedly, I now

believe) and I returned to normal heart rhythm/beat. As a patient of the VA I am

required to be compliant and the docs there object to prescribing me when I am

taking the herbs (containing astragalus, siberian ginseng, dan shen and chuan

qi) due to pro-arrhythmic properties of s.g. How can I make the case to them for

this formula or should I? What do you think of this formula? Thanks.

On another note I am still uncertain about the direction of my treatment. My dom

is unhappy with my energy level. He emphasises my breathing ability and chest

tightness along with my liver, sex hormones. I would like to have a feel for how

all this ties together.

Thanks in advance for any comments,

John Caldwell

[Guest guest]

On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 10:34 AM, kulcousy <kulcousy2 wrote:

 

>

>

> Dear Al and All,

>

> My case of atrial fibrillation has become a conflict with eastern/western

> methods.

>

After 9 months of acupuncture, I experienced a period of well-being and

> improvement in my overall health that co-incided with my heart rhythm going

> out of control. I still felt good but after a month and a half at around

> 130-140 b.p.m. I became worn out and my energy failed badly.

>

Did the rapid heartbeat start when you began the acupuncture?

 

Or the herbs?

 

> An herbal formula was designed specially for me in Taiwan due to my

> continuing low energy. It made my rhythm problems even worse so I combined

> it with sotalol (belatedly, I now believe) and I returned to normal heart

> rhythm/beat. As a patient of the VA I am required to be compliant and the

> docs there object to prescribing me when I am taking the herbs (containing

> astragalus, siberian ginseng, dan shen and chuan qi) due to pro-arrhythmic

> properties of s.g. How can I make the case to them for this formula or

> should I? What do you think of this formula? Thanks.

>

Can you provide all of the ingredients?

 

These herbs were prescribed to address fatigue?

 

Warm herbs can cause a rapid heartbeat, but only if you're otherwise

weakened or there's something else going on there. If the formula is a

premade pill from China there may be an undeclared drug in there too.

 

Astragalus and Siberian Ginseng are warm. Dan Shen is cool and should be

good for a rapid heartbeat. I don't recognize the herb named " chuan qi " .

 

On another note I am still uncertain about the direction of my treatment.

> My dom is unhappy with my energy level. He emphasises my breathing ability

> and chest tightness along with my liver, sex hormones. I would like to have

> a feel for how all this ties together.

>

 

Am I to understand that you originally sought out help for fatigue,

shortness of breath, and chest tightness? Or were you just open to whatever

your practitioner wanted to treat? What are your goals?

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

http://twitter.com/algancao

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Al,

Sorry it wasn't clear. It started with Atrial Fibrillation a couple of years

ago. I was prescribed the beta blocker sotalol to control the rhythm and rate of

my heart. Though it was successful It was unsatisfactory because of chest

tightness, shortness of breath coupled with low energy and depression.

 

The tightness continued after I stopped sotalol, however and seem to be part of

my pattern somehow(?). A year ago I started seeing my dcm to control my heart. I

was very low on energy. He said he would have to build up my other systems

before my heart would regain health. This seemed to work well, though slowly,

and at 8 months my energy and pleasure of life picked up greatly. Conversely, at

this point my heart rate gradually increased into the 130-140 range in constant

afib.

 

At this time (late February), the custom herb capsules arrived from China . They

seemed to create ocasional even higher spikes in my rate but were otherwise

pleasant creating a relaxed feeling in my chest. I was told it was not

relaxation but chi! My heart rate remained high so after over 2 months out of

rhythm and now low on energy I converted to normal rhythm and rate with sotalol

last week. The side effects of the med have been much less this time, which I

attribute to the improvement in health brought about by the tcm.

 

Now I have to choose my treatment. I need to cooperate with the m.d.'s at the

veterans hospital who think their meds will not be compatible with ginseng due

to studies showing adverse reactions from ginseng in people with rhythm

problems. It's obvious to me that the people who made this formula understand

the effects of sibe gen. I am trying to integrate both systems with hope that I

will now continue my improvement to a point where I can stop the meds.

 

I have been taken off meds temporarily in order to see where I stand on my own

resources, establishing a baseline for treatment at the VA. Today I am

pleasantly surprised to feel strong and in rhythm. Afib tends to be episodic so

this could be a temporary lull but after 2 exhausting months it's very welcome.

 

My tcm treatments seem to focus on liver and chest tightness. I'm always amazed

when a treatment causes my chest to relax because I am unaware that it's tight

until it relaxes. Wow. Could this be a key to restoring heart health? It makes

sense that I would tense my chest trying to protect my heart. It's ironic that

this could actually be a mechanism supporting my disorder by reducing

circulation.

 

Now my tongue has a healthy color. The dcm says it's rare to see such a reversal

from a liverish color. When I see him later this week I will see what more I can

find out about the herbs though his English is limited.

 

Thank you for your interest,

John Caldwell

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

Al Stone

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Sunday, March 21, 2010 3:36 PM

Re: [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Chinese medicine and arrhythmia- again

 

 

 

On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 10:34 AM, kulcousy <kulcousy2 wrote:

 

>

>

> Dear Al and All,

>

> My case of atrial fibrillation has become a conflict with eastern/western

> methods.

>

After 9 months of acupuncture, I experienced a period of well-being and

> improvement in my overall health that co-incided with my heart rhythm going

> out of control. I still felt good but after a month and a half at around

> 130-140 b.p.m. I became worn out and my energy failed badly.

>

Did the rapid heartbeat start when you began the acupuncture?

 

Or the herbs?

 

> An herbal formula was designed specially for me in Taiwan due to my

> continuing low energy. It made my rhythm problems even worse so I combined

> it with sotalol (belatedly, I now believe) and I returned to normal heart

> rhythm/beat. As a patient of the VA I am required to be compliant and the

> docs there object to prescribing me when I am taking the herbs (containing

> astragalus, siberian ginseng, dan shen and chuan qi) due to pro-arrhythmic

> properties of s.g. How can I make the case to them for this formula or

> should I? What do you think of this formula? Thanks.

>

Can you provide all of the ingredients?

 

These herbs were prescribed to address fatigue?

 

Warm herbs can cause a rapid heartbeat, but only if you're otherwise

weakened or there's something else going on there. If the formula is a

premade pill from China there may be an undeclared drug in there too.

 

Astragalus and Siberian Ginseng are warm. Dan Shen is cool and should be

good for a rapid heartbeat. I don't recognize the herb named " chuan qi " .

 

On another note I am still uncertain about the direction of my treatment.

> My dom is unhappy with my energy level. He emphasises my breathing ability

> and chest tightness along with my liver, sex hormones. I would like to have

> a feel for how all this ties together.

>

 

Am I to understand that you originally sought out help for fatigue,

shortness of breath, and chest tightness? Or were you just open to whatever

your practitioner wanted to treat? What are your goals?

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

http://twitter.com/algancao

 

[Guest guest]

On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 9:19 AM, John Caldwell <kulcousy2wrote:

 

>

>

> At this time (late February), the custom herb capsules arrived from China .

>

I would think that a custom formula would not be adulterated with drugs, but

I am a little bit concerned about the ingredients too.

 

>

> Now I have to choose my treatment. I need to cooperate with the m.d.'s at

> the veterans hospital who think their meds will not be compatible with

> ginseng due to studies showing adverse reactions from ginseng in people with

> rhythm problems.

>

First of all, Siberian ginseng is not Panax ginseng in the same way that The

Monkeys were not the " American Beatles " . Though it is essentially the same

grammatical construction. Sib. Ginseng is a completely different herb that,

while it is considered a qi tonic, is not ginseng, end of story.

 

Next, I don't have a problem with your MDs looking into interactions and so

forth, but I have seen some really superficial and wholly inaccurate

statements made in this regard such as Chai Hu (bupleurum) causing deadly

lung problems. What doesn't always make it into the echo chamber of

peer-reviewed research that they read is that this herb is ONLY a problem if

you're also taking interferon which is somewhat rare, but a legitimate

concern.

 

I do however support the idea of stopping all herbs and drugs to see where

you are, then visit both of your Doctors (WM & CM) and go from there. I do

not trust your herbs from China. I have no idea what they were thinking, if

they were thinking at all. This doesn't mean they're bad for you, but with a

rapid heartbeat, I would be slow to give you warm tonics myself.

 

>

> My tcm treatments seem to focus on liver and chest tightness. I'm always

> amazed when a treatment causes my chest to relax because I am unaware that

> it's tight until it relaxes. Wow. Could this be a key to restoring heart

> health?

>

That's not an unusual treatment principle. Since you're going to the VA, in

my mind you're older (of course I could be wrong) but if you're a senior

citizen, there could be some other issues affecting your heart too. As we

get older, " blood stagnation " is commonly a problem. This are other

mechanisms behind heart problems, such as is " damp heat " which could be

thought of as atherosclerosis or high cholesterol.

 

> It makes sense that I would tense my chest trying to protect my heart. It's

> ironic that this could actually be a mechanism supporting my disorder by

> reducing circulation.

>

Qi stagnation leading to heat could explain a lot. I often use xiang fu (rx.

cyperus) for this qi stagnation type chest tightness. You might ask your

Doctor of CM about that.

 

>

> Now my tongue has a healthy color. The dcm says it's rare to see such a

> reversal from a liverish color. When I see him later this week I will see

> what more I can find out about the herbs though his English is limited.

>

Is that the color of the liver you buy in the store (dark red)? or the color

related to the Liver in CM (blue-green)? Hope it's the dark red. For that to

diffuse into a lighter color is a great sign.

 

-al.

 

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

http://twitter.com/algancao