Guest guest Posted November 6, 2009 Report Share Posted November 6, 2009 Qi has no definite meaning. As we evolve in our learning and education, we are changing meanings. Has anybody considered Qi as the vibrational breath/musical-tonal frequency of something? I would guess that it will open up another way of looking at Qi. JUDITHJOY GAMPONIA 905-597-6644 gamponia888 With courage you will dare to take risks, have the strength to be compassionate and the wisdom to be humble. Courage is the foundation of integrity. --K. Nair ________________ Connect with friends from any web browser - no download required. Try the new Canada Messenger for the Web BETA at http://ca.messenger./webmessengerpromo.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2009 Report Share Posted November 6, 2009 > Qi is not just stuff that flows (hopefully unimpeded) through the In my understanding Qi is not stuff that flows, it's a certain attribute of the stuff. I would identify 'Spleen' as the function and 'Spleen Qi' as the power of the Spleen-related substances (like pancreatic enzymes), their ability to influence other substances in order to fulfil the tasks of the Spleen. Another example: Lung Qi could be (among others) the attraction the red blood cells exert on the oxygene atoms (and not the red blood cells or avioli themselves). Kong (air) Qi could be the chemical aggressivity of the oxygene atoms (and not the gas itself). > perfect fine, and it is also perfectly fine for biomedicine to describe > these things differently as I have done above. You say tomato, I say tomato. I have my own version for the tomato case. I would say biomedicine and CM classify or partition the world from different viewpoints. Biomedicine says 'red ball' CM says 'sour vegetable'. They work along different dimensions. Qi and flat tire: In the Chinese language most words (I mean monosyllables) has very numerous, related or unrelated meanings. Qi means air, gas, weather, etc. It doesn't mean there couldn't be an unambigous, well-defined Qi concept we use in physiology. As a matter of fact the everyday usage of the Japanese word Ki gave me inspiration for this influence-hypothesis. They say things like " there's a lot of Ki in this dance performance " meaning it has a strong effect on the audience, they're touched by the performance. Tamas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2009 Report Share Posted November 6, 2009 > but limited. I think influence is good, as is energy, as is force, as is causation, as is temperature, as is intent, as is function. The list goes on, but you get my point. You're right, sometimes energy is a good translation, sometimes force, etc. It's only I think 'influence' is the common denominator. Also I don't suggest to replace the word Qi with influence. Qi is a very good word, we need it. I'm just trying to define it. Tamas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 this is a great book that looks at qi from several different angles, including translations/interpretation. highly recommended for the topic! http://www.redwingbooks.com/products/books/BriHisQi.cfm ~ Joey B ________________________________ Tamas <knz Chinese Traditional Medicine Fri, November 6, 2009 6:52:04 PM [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Re: qi > but limited. I think influence is good, as is energy, as is force, as is causation, as is temperature, as is intent, as is function. The list goes on, but you get my point. You're right, sometimes energy is a good translation, sometimes force, etc. It's only I think 'influence' is the common denominator. Also I don't suggest to replace the word Qi with influence. Qi is a very good word, we need it. I'm just trying to define it. Tamas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 I don't think that qi is any more mysterious than any other word. To me it's more about the limits of written and spoken language. Experience truly cannot be shared by the word. For example if you were trying to tell someone what salt tasted like when they had never had salt before, how would you do it without using the word salt? Same for other feelings, sensations or experiences. What can be done though is to take a common set of experiences that most people have and try to explain something that's new by taking several of these common experiences to explain and really narrow down the field of meaning. Some people like to be mystified, and they might explain qi more mystically. I would explain qi more as life force, or the force/energy/function that gives something life, but that too has it's limitations I'm sure. In the bike example we could say that the tire lacks the force to give it life (function) for use because the air pressure is too low. Thanks for sharing that story Al =) I really like the idea behind that story that qi is in and required for things that we wouldn't normally consider alive =) To me it's really more about the limitations of words to be able to describe feelings/sensations/experiences than it is that qi is a mystical thing =) Others might tell you otherwise =P Bottom line is believe what you choose =) Chinese Traditional Medicine , " yakenez " <knz wrote: > > Lately I've been thinking about the nature of Qi. Is it really a obscure, deep, oriental concept that cannot be told in plain English? Or is it a very simple term and it's just lost in translation? > > How about this: qi is influence. When qi flows there flows something having the ability influencing other things, the ability of triggering an interaction. We don't know or don't interested in the details. What is important for us that it's able to influence other things. > > What do you think? Do we loose anything if we say Qi is simply influence? Can you tell me a situation, a sentence with Qi where if we substitute Qi with influence we loose something important? > > It's also interesting that now as I looked up the definition of 'influence' in the Merriam-Webster I found this: > > 2 : an emanation of spiritual or moral force > > Tamas > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 Dear mrasmm, > For example if you were trying to tell someone what salt tasted like when they had never had salt before, how would you do it without using the word salt? Here's what I suspect: Let's say there's a chinese word, 'yán'. The ancient Chinese books try to explain us its meaning but they unable to do it without using the word yán. The catch is that we do now what yán is, from our own experience. We just afraid to accept that 'yán' means salt, because it's too plain. Now substite yán/salt with q & #236;/influence in the sentence above. > I would explain qi more as life force, or the force/energy/function that gives something life Consider this quote from Xun Kuang (313-283BC): " Water and Fire have Qi but not life. " If we accept that it's clear Qi cannot be life force. Tamas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 See Qigong Articles in Qi Dao (A Free Magazine) 7. Eisen, M. and Kevin, C. Scientific Exploration of Qi: Part 1. Qi in . Qi Dao, May/June., 2008. 8. Eisen, M. Scientific Exploration of Qi: Part 2. Qi in Chinese Medicine. Qi Dao, July/Aug., 2008. 9. Eisen, M. Scientific Exploration of Qi: Part 3. Earth Energy. Qi Dao, Sept./Oct., 2008. 10. Eisen, M. Scientific Exploration of Qi: Part 4. Heaven Energy of the Sun and Moon. Qi Dao, Nov./Dec., 2008. 11. Eisen, M. Scientific Exploration of Qi: Part 5a. Heaven Energy of the Stars. Qi Dao, Jan./Feb., 2009. 12. Eisen, M. Scientific Exploration of Qi: Part 5b. Heaven Energy of the Stars. Qi Dao, March/April., 2009. 13. Eisen, M. Scientific Exploration of Qi: Part 6. Some Modern Scientific Theories of Qi. Qi Dao, May/June., 2009. 14. Eisen, M. Scientific Exploration of Qi: Part 7. Effects of Qigong Practice on the Body. Qi Dao, July/Aug., 2009. 15. Eisen, M. Scientific Exploration of Qi: Part 8. Internal and External Fields and Qigong. Qi Dao, Sept./Oct., 2009. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 ok =) just a thought, this looks like a quote from a Chinese dude from the 3rd century BC, and it's in English; if I'm not mistaken that makes it more of a translation of a quote than an actual quote, so it would be subject to the same issues in translation as the translation issue of the word qi that's being looked at in the first place. Anyways, bottom line to me is it doesn't really matter, you can say that qi cannot be translated as life force, and I'll still describe it that way because it's what I believe and how I choose to describe it; just like you're describing qi as influence because it's what you believe and what you choose; I respect that. Your original question was is there any way where translating qi as influence loose any value, and my opinion is yes it does. In my opinion translation in general generally looses value. I believe that both water and fire have what I would call " life " in them, just like I was saying about the bike tire. I believe that everyone can believe or describe things different ways, and there is value in that. This feels like it is moving in to philosophical territory to me, and that's not where I'm looking to spend my time. good luck with finding whatever it is that you set out to find =) Chinese Traditional Medicine , " Tamas " <knz wrote: > > Dear mrasmm, > > > For example if you were trying to tell someone what salt tasted like when they had never had salt before, how would you do it without using the word salt? > > Here's what I suspect: Let's say there's a chinese word, 'yán'. The ancient Chinese books try to explain us its meaning but they unable to do it without using the word yán. > > The catch is that we do now what yán is, from our own experience. We > just afraid to accept that 'yán' means salt, because it's too plain. > > Now substite yán/salt with q & #236;/influence in the sentence above. > > > I would explain qi more as life force, or the force/energy/function that gives something life > > Consider this quote from Xun Kuang (313-283BC): > " Water and Fire have Qi but not life. " > > If we accept that it's clear Qi cannot be life force. > > Tamas > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 2009 Report Share Posted November 8, 2009 Just a quick note. I saw Elizabeth Rochat last weekend and she said something very simple that resonated. Her point was that if you have a word in English (or French) that you are trying to understand in it makes no sense to try to investigate it in English. You need to go to the Chinese word. Although I cannot " read " Chinese I am forever investigating Chinese words, through the dictionary Wenlin, talking with colleagues, reading articles etc... Doug Chinese Traditional Medicine , " mrasmm " <mrasmm wrote: > > ok =) > > > just a thought, this looks like a quote from a Chinese dude from the 3rd century BC, and it's in English; if I'm not mistaken that makes it more of a translation of a quote than an actual quote, so it would be subject to the same issues in translation as the translation issue of the word qi that's being looked at in the first place. > > Anyways, bottom line to me is it doesn't really matter, you can say that qi cannot be translated as life force, and I'll still describe it that way because it's what I believe and how I choose to describe it; just like you're describing qi as influence because it's what you believe and what you choose; I respect that. > > Your original question was is there any way where translating qi as influence loose any value, and my opinion is yes it does. In my opinion translation in general generally looses value. > > I believe that both water and fire have what I would call " life " in them, just like I was saying about the bike tire. I believe that everyone can believe or describe things different ways, and there is value in that. This feels like it is moving in to philosophical territory to me, and that's not where I'm looking to spend my time. > > > good luck with finding whatever it is that you set out to find =) > > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine , " Tamas " <knz@> wrote: > > > > Dear mrasmm, > > > > > For example if you were trying to tell someone what salt tasted like when they had never had salt before, how would you do it without using the word salt? > > > > Here's what I suspect: Let's say there's a chinese word, 'yán'. The ancient Chinese books try to explain us its meaning but they unable to do it without using the word yán. > > > > The catch is that we do now what yán is, from our own experience. We > > just afraid to accept that 'yán' means salt, because it's too plain. > > > > Now substite yán/salt with q & #236;/influence in the sentence above. > > > > > I would explain qi more as life force, or the force/energy/function that gives something life > > > > Consider this quote from Xun Kuang (313-283BC): > > " Water and Fire have Qi but not life. " > > > > If we accept that it's clear Qi cannot be life force. > > > > Tamas > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 2009 Report Share Posted November 8, 2009 Qi doesn't have a simple interpretation - see Qigong Articles in Qi Dao (A Free Magazine) 7. Eisen, M. and Kevin, C. Scientific Exploration of Qi: Part 1. Qi in . Qi Dao, May/June., 2008. 8. Eisen, M. Scientific Exploration of Qi: Part 2. Qi in Chinese Medicine. Qi Dao, July/Aug., 2008. 9. Eisen, M. Scientific Exploration of Qi: Part 3. Earth Energy. Qi Dao, Sept./Oct., 2008. 10. Eisen, M. Scientific Exploration of Qi: Part 4. Heaven Energy of the Sun and Moon. Qi Dao, Nov./Dec., 2008. 11. Eisen, M. Scientific Exploration of Qi: Part 5a. Heaven Energy of the Stars. Qi Dao, Jan./Feb., 2009. 12. Eisen, M. Scientific Exploration of Qi: Part 5b. Heaven Energy of the Stars. Qi Dao, March/April., 2009. 13. Eisen, M. Scientific Exploration of Qi: Part 6. Some Modern Scientific Theories of Qi. Qi Dao, May/June., 2009. 14. Eisen, M. Scientific Exploration of Qi: Part 7. Effects of Qigong Practice on the Body. Qi Dao, July/Aug., 2009. 15. Eisen, M. Scientific Exploration of Qi: Part 8. Internal and External Fields and Qigong. Qi Dao, Sept./Oct., 2009. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 > good luck with finding whatever it is that you set out to find =) Well, it's not a good translation, a good word what I'm trying to find. I'm trying to find the meaning of Qi. Is this a simple concept, like influence, or do we need to assume some New-Age flavor? It's a big difference. I understand that those who studied CM, have a practice, heal people everyday, those have a good grasp of Qi and are not interested in translation issues. Anyway, thank you all for your comments. At least nobody came up with a Qi-situation where Qi is not influence, or an influence-situation where we can't say it's Qi. Tamas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 Hi Tamas: --Tamas- Is this a simple concept, like influence, or do we need to assume some New-Age flavor? --- You may not have been so clear with your question last time around. I absolutely am against adding any sort of flavour to the concept, especially the materialist or new-age flavours. However, if some sort of equation is being made where Qi is influence and this means that certain materialistically impossible phenomena are being excluded, then I strongly disagree as well. Distance qi emission is possible. I often receive it, I often emit it, and while it can definitely be unpredictable in the way poetry is unpredictable, it is, also like poetry, most definitely real. Influence is a broad word with acceptable flexibility, but do people necessarily understand the type of flexibility which will be asked of the word as it attempts to provide a container for Qi? In the final analysis, influence doesn't cut it. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org ________________________________ Tamas <knz Chinese Traditional Medicine Mon, 9 November, 2009 17:49:47 [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Re: qi > good luck with finding whatever it is that you set out to find =) Well, it's not a good translation, a good word what I'm trying to find. I'm trying to find the meaning of Qi. It's a big difference. I understand that those who studied CM, have a practice, heal people everyday, those have a good grasp of Qi and are not interested in translation issues. Anyway, thank you all for your comments. At least nobody came up with a Qi-situation where Qi is not influence, or an influence-situation where we can't say it's Qi. Tamas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 Wilhelm Reich scientifically described and experimented with the physical properties of " orgone. " If you want to associate the two concepts of the " life energy. " Modern Scientific Theories of the Ancient Aether: http://www.mountainman.com.au/aetherqr.htm Ancient Historical Background - Fragments of Aether: http://www.mountainman.com.au/ancients.html Christopher A Decaen's Aristotle's Aether and Contemporary Science http://www.superflumina.org/PDF_files/light.pdf Further Thoughts on Aristotle's Aether: http://www.superflumina.org/PDF_files/ether_science_further.pdf - " Tamas " <knz <Chinese Traditional Medicine > Monday, November 09, 2009 4:49 PM [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Re: qi >> good luck with finding whatever it is that you set out to find =) > > Well, it's not a good translation, a good word what I'm trying to find. > I'm trying to find the meaning of Qi. Is this a simple concept, like > influence, or do we need to assume some New-Age flavor? It's a big > difference. > > I understand that those who studied CM, have a practice, heal people > everyday, those have a good grasp of Qi and are not interested in > translation issues. > > Anyway, thank you all for your comments. At least nobody came up with a > Qi-situation where Qi is not influence, or an influence-situation where we > can't say it's Qi. > > Tamas > > > > > > --- > > Post message address: Chinese Traditional Medicine > http://health.Chinese Traditional Medicine/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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