spleen deficiency - acupuncture and Chinese herbs

[Guest guest]

My acupuncturist has diagnosed me with *spleen deficiency*.

 

My primary issue seems to be circulation problems in my legs. The blood is not

returning back up to my heart (from my legs) as it should be. This circulation

problem is causing edema, which I think is from the blood itself pooling as well

as lymphatic fluid issues that are being caused by this circulation problem.

 

My acupuncturist says that I do not have a " major disease state " . And I guess I

really don't. My legs are not disfigured - just a bit soft and swollen. I also

have some mild varicose/spider veins in my legs. With each baby that I have,

these issues become more pronounced. I first noticed my swollen legs *mildly*

in my teens.

 

Are there any thoughts about HOW LONG it will take for acupuncture and Chinese

herbs to help/heal my circulation problem/*spleen deficiency*?

 

I've been doing acupucture for over 3 months. I have been on my current herb

formula for almost 4 weeks. My acupuncturist says that my legs are not as soft.

It is hard for me to see mild changes, since I am with my legs every day.

 

Thanks!!

[Guest guest]

Hi SB:

 

When you say " over three months " , I say " only three months?? "

I'm sure you get the point. Would it that we could pay back our university

debts in 1-3 weeks.

 

Hugo

 

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.middlemedicine.org

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

" stompingbaby " <stompingbaby

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Saturday, 19 September, 2009 16:39:36

[Chinese Traditional Medicine] spleen deficiency - acupuncture and Chinese herbs

 

 

My acupuncturist has diagnosed me with *spleen deficiency*.

 

My primary issue seems to be circulation problems in my legs. The blood is not

returning back up to my heart (from my legs) as it should be. This circulation

problem is causing edema, which I think is from the blood itself pooling as well

as lymphatic fluid issues that are being caused by this circulation problem.

 

My acupuncturist says that I do not have a " major disease state " . And I guess I

really don't. My legs are not disfigured - just a bit soft and swollen. I also

have some mild varicose/spider veins in my legs. With each baby that I have,

these issues become more pronounced. I first noticed my swollen legs *mildly*

in my teens.

 

Are there any thoughts about HOW LONG it will take for acupuncture and Chinese

herbs to help/heal my circulation problem/*spleen deficiency*?

 

I've been doing acupucture for over 3 months. I have been on my current herb

formula for almost 4 weeks. My acupuncturist says that my legs are not as soft.

It is hard for me to see mild changes, since I am with my legs every day.

 

Thanks!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I went to an acupuncturist for several years with my heart problem.

Switched doctors and in 4 months I am nearing the end of my treatment and have

had great results. Not all are equal.

John

 

Are there any thoughts about HOW LONG it will take for acupuncture and Chinese

herbs to help/heal my circulation problem/*spleen deficiency*?

[Guest guest]

I'm not complaining about it being over 3 months. I just mentioned that as a

time frame, so that it could be helpful in getting feedback.

 

I am wanting to know what kind of time frame I should be looking at, so that I

know if things are going well or not...

 

It is challenging to me, to be able to determine which pracitioners are right

for me and which are not. How can I figure that out? The one I have *thinks*

that the chinese herbs should be making a significant improvement. I've not yet

seen that, but I have nothing negative from the herbs.

 

Any advice about this?

Thanks!

 

 

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine , " John Caldwell " <kulcousy2 wrote:

>

> I went to an acupuncturist for several years with my heart problem.

> Switched doctors and in 4 months I am nearing the end of my treatment and have

had great results. Not all are equal.

> John

>

> Are there any thoughts about HOW LONG it will take for acupuncture and

Chinese herbs to help/heal my circulation problem/*spleen deficiency*?

>

[Guest guest]

On Sat, Sep 19, 2009 at 1:39 PM, <stompingbaby wrote:

 

>

>

> My acupuncturist has diagnosed me with *spleen deficiency*.

>

 

 

 

You have edema in your legs and it is low-grade. That is where we begin our

assessment.

 

Spleen qi deficiency can explain this, as can a Kidney qi deficiency. There

are a few formulas that are diuretic such as Wu Ling San, so if you're

getting this, that's great. If not, then you're probably getting a Spleen qi

tonic, but I have no idea of what you're getting and the dosage, now how

appropriate it is for you. So, making a prognosis with all these unknowns is

impossible.

 

However your question is a reasonable one. The best answer I can offer is

the " *one year of pathology requires one month of treatment* " rule. That's

it, but here's more <http://eagleherbs.com/self-tests/prognosis-o-matic-8>.

 

 

It is challenging to me, to be able to determine which pracitioners are

> right for me and which are not. How can I figure that out? The one I have

> *thinks* that the chinese herbs should be making a significant improvement.

> I've not yet seen that, but I have nothing negative from the herbs.

>

 

Yeah, it is difficult to know for sure who's good and who isn't. Can you

tell us what you've been given for your leg edema? That would be a good

start. Include:

 

1. the name of the product,

2. the dosage,

3. the form in which it comes (capsules, BBs, M & M type pills, raw herbs,

extract powders, etc.)

 

That'll help us give you an opinion on this.

 

-al.

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

http://twitter.com/algancao

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Al!

 

I took the test and came up with 4 months. I did not know whether my problem

was excess or deficiency, so I may have missed that question. My edema has been

with me mildly for 20 years or so. As a teen, I noticed that my legs were

slightly not as small as other girls'. But, it was not a huge thing. It has

increased with time.

 

I am wanting to have another baby before too long but hope to wrap all this up

first, so that is one reason I am trying to determine a time line.

 

My formula is from Kamwo in NYC. It is loose herbs that I boil into a tea and

then drink twice daily. I do not have the ingredients. I will ask my

practitioner to give me that - and then will post. I think it is solely focused

on spleen deficiency, as that is what she talks about all the time. Since my

problem appears to be edema caused by poor circulation, would a diuretic formula

still be helpful? What seems to be happening is that my blood is not going back

up my legs to my heart. I have reddish legs with some white spots and lots of

tiny red dots. Having this poor circulation is supposed to cause lymph fluid to

not drain properly - and therefore get stuck, causing edema. At least, that is

what I am hearing...

 

Thanks again!

 

 

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine , Al Stone <al wrote:

>

> On Sat, Sep 19, 2009 at 1:39 PM, <stompingbaby wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > My acupuncturist has diagnosed me with *spleen deficiency*.

> >

>

>

>

> You have edema in your legs and it is low-grade. That is where we begin our

> assessment.

[Guest guest]

This is how I would approach it. It seems like you want to know if your

practitioner is right for you, in other words you might want to have a " sense "

if he's right for you.

 

So with that in mind, if you want a " sense " , then you're going to want something

that is going to give you sensory input, so it's about information gathering.

 

Like Al was saying there are several different forms of treatment, from more or

less like over the counter treatments, to more like custom prescriptions. But

just because a doctor gives you OTC doesn't make him a bad doctor because maybe

that's what you need (TCM equivalent is patent formulas that usually come in

compressed powder tablets or BB looking things). Likewise, just because he

makes a custom powder or tea extract, doesn't make him a good one. With that

said knowing what kind of medicine your doctor prescribes to you (and other

patients) can be used as a part of an overall picture as a good indicator.

 

Asking what specific time frame things should be improving in, may be a good

barometer, then again it's not an inclusive picture, so it might not always be

accurate.

 

Some other things that can be used, how busy is his office? When you over hear

other patients talking about their treatment, what kinds of things are they

saying? If you have the chance to mention his name to other practitioners in

the area, what are they able to say? Asking him what his treatment logic is,

sharing that with others, and getting a sense what their opinions are. What

does he say your prognosis is, and how long is he looking at? Asking him what

improvements he sees as important (they may be different than what you feel is

important), which ones he's seen that have been made, etc etc.

 

The way I look at it, it's really about getting clear on your intention, and

getting in a clear place where you have enough information and familiarity to

ask your intuition (gut feeling) if it's a decision that is benefiting you to

the level you need so you can continue. This, to me, sounds like basically what

you're doing already =)

 

To me it sounds great that it's not causing experiences that you see as

negative. At the same time it's also sounding like that you're not really

seeing anything that you feel is very significant as far as improvement.

Something to point out with TCM is that it can be fixing things in the

background that most of the time people are really able to substantiate until

something real dramatic happens (think of the color of the sky and how it

changes every day, but it's not as easily noticeable until the change is

dramatic from one day to the next).

 

My question that I would ask (after you've gathered enough information to help

you) is, How do you feel about your experience? Do you feel like it is

benefiting you to the level you need in order to continue? If you feel like

you'd like to try something else, try it, compare it, sometimes it will become

apparent that you want to go back, or that you're happy you moved on.

 

And every so often reevaluate things and ask these questions again. Be careful

not to do it too much, because it's like a nagging boss that comes in too often

to check how much you have done, you'll probably get complacent and less

responsive.

 

 

Good luck =)

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine , stompingbaby wrote:

>

> I'm not complaining about it being over 3 months. I just mentioned that as a

time frame, so that it could be helpful in getting feedback.

>

> I am wanting to know what kind of time frame I should be looking at, so that I

know if things are going well or not...

>

> It is challenging to me, to be able to determine which pracitioners are right

for me and which are not. How can I figure that out? The one I have *thinks*

that the chinese herbs should be making a significant improvement. I've not yet

seen that, but I have nothing negative from the herbs.

>

> Any advice about this?

> Thanks!

[Guest guest]

I'm not an expert but I noticed improvements in various areas along with the

primary complaint after a few treatments. I would expect that in future cases.

This is just my 2 cents worth.

 

 

 

> Are there any thoughts about HOW LONG it will take for acupuncture and

Chinese herbs to help/heal my circulation problem/*spleen deficiency*?

[Guest guest]

It may be worth noting that a clearly defined edema problem due to poor

circulation and lymph fluid build up as western medicine explains it, may not

always show up that way in TCM. Whether or not a diuretic is helpful for you or

not will depend on the TCM presentation. From what I'm hearing you have

dampness and a Spleen (upper case denotes a TCM collection of functions that

make up the TCM Spleen) problem, makes a diuretic a likely part of the solution.

 

The Spleen doesn't like to be damp, and can't disperse the energy it extracts

from the food properly when it is. Without energy to reaching the other systems

it's gona make healing pretty tough. So it makes sense to drain the dampness

off of the Spleen.

 

If it's a lymph/circulation issue, getting in motion can get the qi going and

help that kind of stagnation (TCM term meaning slowing or pooling) if you can

tolerate it.

 

Al's really good at dissecting a list of ingredients to figure out what route

your practitioner is taking, so you're in good hands there.

 

Good luck =)

 

 

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine , stompingbaby wrote:

>

> Thanks, Al!

>

> I took the test and came up with 4 months. I did not know whether my problem

was excess or deficiency, so I may have missed that question. My edema has been

with me mildly for 20 years or so. As a teen, I noticed that my legs were

slightly not as small as other girls'. But, it was not a huge thing. It has

increased with time.

>

> I am wanting to have another baby before too long but hope to wrap all this up

first, so that is one reason I am trying to determine a time line.

>

> My formula is from Kamwo in NYC. It is loose herbs that I boil into a tea and

then drink twice daily. I do not have the ingredients. I will ask my

practitioner to give me that - and then will post. I think it is solely focused

on spleen deficiency, as that is what she talks about all the time. Since my

problem appears to be edema caused by poor circulation, would a diuretic formula

still be helpful? What seems to be happening is that my blood is not going back

up my legs to my heart. I have reddish legs with some white spots and lots of

tiny red dots. Having this poor circulation is supposed to cause lymph fluid to

not drain properly - and therefore get stuck, causing edema. At least, that is

what I am hearing...

>

> Thanks again!

[Guest guest]

Ditto my man, Rex.

 

Also, the red color in the legs is an interesting item. Red=heat,

edema=damp. Formula is called Si Miao San, it is for red edemic tissues in

the lower body. There may be other formulas, I mean, when isn't there.

but that's the one that I'm aware of.

 

-al.

 

On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 9:27 PM, mrasmm <mrasmm wrote:

 

>

>

> It may be worth noting that a clearly defined edema problem due to poor

> circulation and lymph fluid build up as western medicine explains it, may

> not always show up that way in TCM. Whether or not a diuretic is helpful for

> you or not will depend on the TCM presentation. From what I'm hearing you

> have dampness and a Spleen (upper case denotes a TCM collection of functions

> that make up the TCM Spleen) problem, makes a diuretic a likely part of the

> solution.

>

> The Spleen doesn't like to be damp, and can't disperse the energy it

> extracts from the food properly when it is. Without energy to reaching the

> other systems it's gona make healing pretty tough. So it makes sense to

> drain the dampness off of the Spleen.

>

> If it's a lymph/circulation issue, getting in motion can get the qi going

> and help that kind of stagnation (TCM term meaning slowing or pooling) if

> you can tolerate it.

>

> Al's really good at dissecting a list of ingredients to figure out what

> route your practitioner is taking, so you're in good hands there.

>

> Good luck =)

>

>

> Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40>,

> stompingbaby wrote:

> >

> > Thanks, Al!

> >

> > I took the test and came up with 4 months. I did not know whether my

> problem was excess or deficiency, so I may have missed that question. My

> edema has been with me mildly for 20 years or so. As a teen, I noticed that

> my legs were slightly not as small as other girls'. But, it was not a huge

> thing. It has increased with time.

> >

> > I am wanting to have another baby before too long but hope to wrap all

> this up first, so that is one reason I am trying to determine a time line.

> >

> > My formula is from Kamwo in NYC. It is loose herbs that I boil into a tea

> and then drink twice daily. I do not have the ingredients. I will ask my

> practitioner to give me that - and then will post. I think it is solely

> focused on spleen deficiency, as that is what she talks about all the time.

> Since my problem appears to be edema caused by poor circulation, would a

> diuretic formula still be helpful? What seems to be happening is that my

> blood is not going back up my legs to my heart. I have reddish legs with

> some white spots and lots of tiny red dots. Having this poor circulation is

> supposed to cause lymph fluid to not drain properly - and therefore get

> stuck, causing edema. At least, that is what I am hearing...

> >

> > Thanks again!

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

http://twitter.com/algancao

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I'm following up on my previous post...

 

I saw my practitioner today.

 

She does not want to share the ingredients of the Kamwo formula. *At the same

time*, she wants me to quit taking the formula and instead do a gluten/sugar

free diet! While maybe a gluten/sugar free diet is helpful for some people, I

feel like that is not what Chinese medicine is about. She claims I am slightly

responding to the acupuncture but seems to be running out of treatment ideas

(since I am not responding as I should be, I guess).

 

I chose her basically because she offers " group " acupuncture for $20/session.

I've been going weekly. Maybe this is a case of you get what you pay for...

The herbs have not been discounted, though.

 

So anyway, I think I really need to move on to another practitioner. My problem

is that I need to someone who is both affordable and will be able to help me

properly. Do non-group practitioners (that are good) ever offer affordable

options? Where I live (Atlanta), the going rate is $80 for regular acupuncture

and $90 for electric. I just cannot afford that.

 

Also, where I live, there are no acupuncture schools. And, I've not been able

to locate any other group practitioners.

 

Would just doing Chinese herbs be beneficial for my problem? How would I go

about just doing the herbs? Which form of herbs is most beneficial (raw,

powder, etc.)?

 

Thanks!

 

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine , stompingbaby wrote:

>

> Thanks, Al!

>

> I took the test and came up with 4 months. I did not know whether my problem

was excess or deficiency, so I may have missed that question. My edema has been

with me mildly for 20 years or so. As a teen, I noticed that my legs were

slightly not as small as other girls'. But, it was not a huge thing. It has

increased with time.

>

> I am wanting to have another baby before too long but hope to wrap all this up

first, so that is one reason I am trying to determine a time line.

>

> My formula is from Kamwo in NYC. It is loose herbs that I boil into a tea and

then drink twice daily. I do not have the ingredients. I will ask my

practitioner to give me that - and then will post. I think it is solely focused

on spleen deficiency, as that is what she talks about all the time. Since my

problem appears to be edema caused by poor circulation, would a diuretic formula

still be helpful? What seems to be happening is that my blood is not going back

up my legs to my heart. I have reddish legs with some white spots and lots of

tiny red dots. Having this poor circulation is supposed to cause lymph fluid to

not drain properly - and therefore get stuck, causing edema. At least, that is

what I am hearing...

>

> Thanks again!

>

>

>

> Chinese Traditional Medicine , Al Stone <al@> wrote:

> >

> > On Sat, Sep 19, 2009 at 1:39 PM, <stompingbaby@> wrote:

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > My acupuncturist has diagnosed me with *spleen deficiency*.

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> > You have edema in your legs and it is low-grade. That is where we begin our

> > assessment.

>

[Guest guest]

I want to address one part of your update. Mostly the scary part about a

practioneer not wanting to reveal their formula. This is actually illegal. All

foods/herbs must list ingredients. The days of secret herbal formulas are long

gone. They may not need to list total grams and such� (though they should). I

would without a doubt find a reputable practioneer. I personally think that

herbs alone can fix Spleen qi def (along with dietary changes) and that

acupuncture can assist in this process. I know of one very good herbalist in the

Atlanta area (don't know what she charges and I assume she still sees clients).

Kramer, Susan

Earthways Herbal Products

swkramer

1340 Woodland Hills Dr. NE

Atlanta, GA 30324

404-248-1684

There are a couple of others in the area but I don't know them personally. You

can check them out at, http://americanherbalistsguild.com/member_profiles/GA

or to search for other acupuncturists go to www.acufinder.com

Hope this helps...oh yes perhaps if you say to the acupuncturist the word HIPAA

(your right to your medical information).

 

Be well,

Bob

Robert Linde, AP, RH

Professional Herbalists Training Program

Acupuncture & Herbal Therapies

901 Central Ave

St. Petersburg, FL 33705

www.acuherbals.com

727-551-0857

 

--- On Wed, 9/23/09, stompingbaby <stompingbaby wrote:

 

 

stompingbaby <stompingbaby

[Chinese Traditional Medicine] Re: spleen deficiency - acupuncture and Chinese herbs

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Wednesday, September 23, 2009, 5:12 PM

 

 

�

 

 

 

I'm following up on my previous post...

 

I saw my practitioner today.

 

She does not want to share the ingredients of the Kamwo formula.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Sugar in small amounts tonifies spleen qi, but in larger amounts is very

depleting.

 

 

 

-

<stompingbaby

<Chinese Traditional Medicine >

Wednesday, September 23, 2009 2:12 PM

[Chinese Traditional Medicine] Re: spleen deficiency - acupuncture and Chinese

herbs

 

 

> I'm following up on my previous post...

>

> I saw my practitioner today.

>

> She does not want to share the ingredients of the Kamwo formula. *At the

> same time*, she wants me to quit taking the formula and instead do a

> gluten/sugar free diet! While maybe a gluten/sugar free diet is helpful

> for some people, I feel like that is not what Chinese medicine is about.

> She claims I am slightly responding to the acupuncture but seems to be

> running out of treatment ideas (since I am not responding as I should be,

> I guess).

>

> I chose her basically because she offers " group " acupuncture for

> $20/session. I've been going weekly. Maybe this is a case of you get

> what you pay for... The herbs have not been discounted, though.

>

> So anyway, I think I really need to move on to another practitioner. My

> problem is that I need to someone who is both affordable and will be able

> to help me properly. Do non-group practitioners (that are good) ever

> offer affordable options? Where I live (Atlanta), the going rate is $80

> for regular acupuncture and $90 for electric. I just cannot afford that.

>

> Also, where I live, there are no acupuncture schools. And, I've not been

> able to locate any other group practitioners.

>

> Would just doing Chinese herbs be beneficial for my problem? How would I

> go about just doing the herbs? Which form of herbs is most beneficial

> (raw, powder, etc.)?

>

> Thanks!

>

>

> Chinese Traditional Medicine , stompingbaby wrote:

>>

>> Thanks, Al!

>>

>> I took the test and came up with 4 months. I did not know whether my

>> problem was excess or deficiency, so I may have missed that question. My

>> edema has been with me mildly for 20 years or so. As a teen, I noticed

>> that my legs were slightly not as small as other girls'. But, it was not

>> a huge thing. It has increased with time.

>>

>> I am wanting to have another baby before too long but hope to wrap all

>> this up first, so that is one reason I am trying to determine a time

>> line.

>>

>> My formula is from Kamwo in NYC. It is loose herbs that I boil into a

>> tea and then drink twice daily. I do not have the ingredients. I will

>> ask my practitioner to give me that - and then will post. I think it is

>> solely focused on spleen deficiency, as that is what she talks about all

>> the time. Since my problem appears to be edema caused by poor

>> circulation, would a diuretic formula still be helpful? What seems to be

>> happening is that my blood is not going back up my legs to my heart. I

>> have reddish legs with some white spots and lots of tiny red dots.

>> Having this poor circulation is supposed to cause lymph fluid to not

>> drain properly - and therefore get stuck, causing edema. At least, that

>> is what I am hearing...

>>

>> Thanks again!

>>

>>

>>

>> Chinese Traditional Medicine , Al Stone <al@> wrote:

>> >

>> > On Sat, Sep 19, 2009 at 1:39 PM, <stompingbaby@> wrote:

>> >

>> > >

>> > >

>> > > My acupuncturist has diagnosed me with *spleen deficiency*.

>> > >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> > You have edema in your legs and it is low-grade. That is where we begin

>> > our

>> > assessment.

>>

>

>

>

>

> ---

>

> Post message address: Chinese Traditional Medicine

> http://health.Chinese Traditional Medicine/

[Guest guest]

Yeah, that does bring up an interesting question. I had a practitioner that was

like that once. He had some formulas that he had learned from his teachers that

they must have not wanted shared, but that doesn't really work with the way laws

are set up in the US.

 

I don't know specifically about sugar, but a reduced carb diet in the short term

(like 2 weeks or so) can help the body reboot so to speak and clear out the

glycogen stores in the liver (amongst other things), which will help the liver

not have as much to deal with.

 

Think of it like if there is some food around your house that you don't really

eat, and when you get to the point that's all that's left is that food you end

up going to the grocery store. So what ends up happening is that food sits

around unused taking up space. If you miss a week to the grocery store, then

you'll likely eat some of this food and get rid of it, and you'll be in good

shape because your shelves will be empty enough that you can get more of the

stuff you want on them. The only way it becomes a problem again is if you go

back to the store and buy the some more food that you don't really use.

 

That will hopefully mean it (the liver) can do more of the other things you want

it to, rather than spending the energy on managing stores that you aren't really

using. So, to me, in the short term it makes sense (that doesn't necessarily

mean that it will work for you specifically though). Long term can lead to all

sorts of things you don't want to be dealing with.

 

I'm not really sure in TCM if they have anything that looks like a short term

reduced carb diet. I think that it's worth saying, if something works, then it

works, no matter what school of thought came up with it. Of course when I am

talking about working, I am talking the whole situation that comes with it long

term and short term, and not just the specific goal.

 

If you remember the points where she needles you, you might be able to share

that and see what others think of the points she is using.

http://www.acuxo.com/

 

As far as herbal preparations, honestly the best one is going to be the one

you'll take and stick with, the one that works for you and your situation.

 

Powders are quiet convenient because they are customizable mix easily, can be

taken with you and taken on the go, and usually require less herbs than say raw

tea decoction that it sounds like you're using. So that means convenience, and

usually a lower price. Powders are probably not quite as available as say

decoctions and extracts (decoctions done with a machine put in to liquid pouches

usually, so you don't have to do the boiling), but for most people that

shouldn't matter.

 

Raw probably has better availability for people that have a hard time absorbing

the powders. It's a bit more expensive usually, and usually involves boiling

some pretty strong smelling tea on on a regular basis so it stays fresh.

 

Extracts can be nice because you don't have to do the boiling yourself.

Sometimes they will be less customized, or you'll have to get them some time

later after your appointment so they can be prepared for you. This would

probably be more expensive than the raw herbs, because they are taking the raw

herbs decocting them for you, then packaging them. These have a better shelf

life than the tea you make from raw herbs and can last like 6 months in the

refrigerator.

 

Capsules are a good method if you have a hard time with the taste. The big

capsules are like 500mg, so you're going to be taking a lot of them, something

like 18 per day, and because they have to be encapsulated, that's going to add

to the cost. They can be custom or more likely pre-made for the most common

types of conditions.

 

The little BB looking things (wan) are usually patent medicine and are also very

small doses, but can be very convenient to take, and you don't really taste them

either.

 

Compressed tablets are usually patent medicine also, and you can taste those,

but they are easy to swallow and carry around.

 

All the dry preparations are going to have a good shelf life of at least 2 or 3

years.

 

 

You can also try the NCCAOM search to find a practitioner in your area

http://dol.jkmcomm.com/acupuncture/default.asp

 

 

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine , stompingbaby wrote:

>

> I'm following up on my previous post...

>

> I saw my practitioner today.

>

> She does not want to share the ingredients of the Kamwo formula. *At the same

time*, she wants me to quit taking the formula and instead do a gluten/sugar

free diet! While maybe a gluten/sugar free diet is helpful for some people, I

feel like that is not what Chinese medicine is about. She claims I am slightly

responding to the acupuncture but seems to be running out of treatment ideas

(since I am not responding as I should be, I guess).

>

> I chose her basically because she offers " group " acupuncture for $20/session.

I've been going weekly. Maybe this is a case of you get what you pay for...

The herbs have not been discounted, though.

>

> So anyway, I think I really need to move on to another practitioner. My

problem is that I need to someone who is both affordable and will be able to

help me properly. Do non-group practitioners (that are good) ever offer

affordable options? Where I live (Atlanta), the going rate is $80 for regular

acupuncture and $90 for electric. I just cannot afford that.

>

> Also, where I live, there are no acupuncture schools. And, I've not been able

to locate any other group practitioners.

>

> Would just doing Chinese herbs be beneficial for my problem? How would I go

about just doing the herbs? Which form of herbs is most beneficial (raw,

powder, etc.)?

>

> Thanks!

[Guest guest]

Very good point Bob!

�

Oscar Seirra is down there in ATL and charges $65 per session. I know him

personally and can tell you he is a great practitioner.

�

His number is 404-233-5080

�

Good luck!

 

Joey Bedrosian LMBT (NC#3259)

Advanced Massage Therapy

704-578-6245

nrgcreator

 

live long & love strong

 

--- On Wed, 9/23/09, Bob Linde, AP, Herbalist <boblindeherbalist

wrote:

 

I want to address one part of your update. Mostly the scary part about a

practioneer not wanting to reveal their formula. This is actually illegal. All

foods/herbs must list ingredients.

[Guest guest]

I found this practitioner online, and unfortunately he charges $100/session now.

Something must have changed. That is more than the average rate of $80 for

Atlanta.

Thanks for your recommendation, though

 

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine , Joey Bedrosian <nrgcreator wrote:

>

> Very good point Bob!

> �

> Oscar Seirra is down there in ATL and charges $65 per session. I know him

personally and can tell you he is a great practitioner.

> �

> His number is 404-233-5080

> �

> Good luck!

>

> Joey Bedrosian LMBT (NC#3259)

> Advanced Massage Therapy

> 704-578-6245

> nrgcreator

>

> live long & love strong

>

> --- On Wed, 9/23/09, Bob Linde, AP, Herbalist <boblindeherbalist wrote:

>

> I want to address one part of your update. Mostly the scary part about a

practioneer not wanting to reveal their formula. This is actually illegal. All

foods/herbs must list ingredients.

>

[Guest guest]

Following up again---

 

I finally got the ingredients to my Kamwo herbal formula. They are as follows:

 

Dang Shen

Bai Zhu

Fu Ling

Gan Cao

Chen Pi

Ban Xia

Huang Qi

Yi Yi Ren

Cang Zhu

Du Zhong

Niu Xi

Mu Dan Pi

Ze Xie

Chuan Xiong

 

These are loose raw herbs that I have boiled and used as tea.

 

My problem appears to be edema caused by poor circulation. What seems to be

happening is that my blood is not going back up my legs to my heart - and

causing pooling in the legs. I have reddish legs with some white spots and lots

of tiny red dots. Having this poor circulation is supposed to cause lymph fluid

to not drain properly - and therefore get stuck, causing edema. At least, that

is what I am hearing...

 

I'd love to hear opinions regarding the above formula ingredients and its

appropriateness for my health issues. Al previously mentioned " Si Miao San " as

a formula for red edemic issues in lower legs - and it is *not* on the list.

FWIW, this formula did *nothing* for me - good or bad. So, I'm thinking it was

not correct.

 

Thanks!

[Guest guest]

On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 12:00 PM, <stompingbaby wrote:

 

>

>

>

> My problem appears to be edema caused by poor circulation.

>

 

 

 

 

You keep returning to this point, but it isn't necessarily accurate. There

are many causes for edema, and I *think* that you're considering this from a

mechanistic western medicine perspective.

 

HOWEVER, since treating the dampness directly had no effect, it probably

couldn't hurt to consider blood circulation. Do you have any purple in your

tongue? Choppy pulse? Painful, clotty periods?

 

> I'd love to hear opinions regarding the above formula ingredients and its

> appropriateness for my health issues.

>

 

 

 

 

All we know is that you have a red-colored edemic legs. We don't know the

cause or diagnosis which has a big effect on how we'd do things. Let's look

at the ingredients of your formula:

 

Dang Shen

> Bai Zhu

> Fu Ling

> Gan Cao

> Chen Pi

> Ban Xia

>

 

The above six herbs are called liu jun zi tang or the " six gentleman

decoction " . It is for dampness and qi deficiency of the Spleen, the usual

cause of thigh edema.

 

 

> Huang Qi

>

 

Huang qi may be used to assist in urination in this formula. There's a

treatment principle called " making it rain " which is to open up the fluid

pathways to remove the extra fluid from your legs. Huang qi is part of that

approach. Opening the lungs, which huang qi can help with, is like poking a

hole in the bottom of a can, so that when it is turned over to allow fluid

to escape from the top, the flow is facilitated.

 

 

> Yi Yi Ren

> Cang Zhu

>

Niu Xi

>

 

These are three of the four herbs in si miao san. (missing is huang bai)

 

 

> Du Zhong

> Ze Xie

>

 

Ze xie is a diuretic. That would help. Not sure what Du Zhong is doing

there. Low back pain?

 

 

> Mu Dan Pi

 

Chuan Xiong

>

 

These two herbs (along with niu xi above) are move the blood, so the idea of

blood circulation is being addressed in this formula too.

 

Based on what I've heard, I have no problem with this formula.

 

I remember at one point you mentioned that your problem is chronic, but not

that severe. You may consider other things like exercise, walking more

often, stretching, that sort of thing to stimulate fluid movement in your

legs. Do you do anything like that?

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

http://twitter.com/algancao