heart arrhythmia and TCM

[Guest guest]

Hi

I am being treated for atrial flutter by an experienced Dr here in Memphis.

Because of language issues and time constraints I don't have a real good grasp

of the dynamics. I saw another acuncturist in recent years and he wasn't as

effective in treating me. I am far from out of the woods and would appreciate

any insight. I have read Web that has no weaver.

Thanks,

John

[Guest guest]

" Atrial flutter " is likely going to be categorized as " palpitations " in

Chinese medicine.

 

Palpitation is defined in CM as the FEELING of your heart beating in your

chest. It can also arise in the abdomen. These palpitations don't have to be

fast or irregular, only noticeable. Obviously if you're running really fast

or otherwise exerting yourself, then feeling your heart beat is normal.

 

There are a few excess type causes for this as well as a few deficiency

types. That's the first thing one would need to know when treating this.

 

The Heart in Chinese medicine runs off of yin, yang, qi, and blood. So, a

deficiency of any of these substances can cause palpitations. These would be

palps that are aggravated by fatigue probably. We'd also see signs and

symptoms of systemic deficiency of these substances too.

 

For instance, a Heart yang deficiency would be palpitations PLUS cold hands

and feet, frequent urination, low back pain, etc. By the way, if anybody

reading this has cold hands and feet, understand that this symptom too can

arise from a number of disharmonies, so don't read this and necessarily

think that it applies to everybody.

 

So, to give you a quicky tutorial on the deficiency types:

 

 

1. Heart yang deficiency: palpitations + symptoms of coldness, pale and

swollen tongue.

2. Heart yin deficiency: palpitations + dry mouth, redness on cheeks,

sore throat, restlessness, insomnia, very red tongue, probably no coating.

3. Heart blood deficiency: palpiations + yin deficiency signs except the

tongue color which will be more pale in this condition.

4. Heart qi deficiency: palpitations aggravated by fatigue, insomnia

(being " too tired to sleep " which doesn't make any sense when you read it,

but people do get this), etc.

 

Excessive causes of palpitations include (but are not limited to):

 

1. Phlegm heat disturbing the heart: palpitations + significant emotional

or cognitive issues such as dementia.

2. Heart in the Heart: palpitations + restlessness, irritability, sores

inside the mouth, frequent bladder infections ( " Heart fire pouring

downward " ), etc.

3. Heat arising from Liver: palpitations + easily angered or frustrated.

4. Heat arising from Stomach: palpitations + sense of food stuck in

stomach, aggravated by large meals.

5. Any of these conditions can cause dream-disturbed sleep too, when the

heat gets into the Heart, it can cause palpitations when you're awake, and

disturbs the spirit which generates weird loud intense dreams that wake you

up.

 

So, you doing any herbs for this? If so, what? If not, why not?

 

Also, not all practitioners think like this. Some just think " heart

palpitations = acupoint PC 6 " and that's that. I'm not sure what your

acupuncturist is thinking, or if they're thinking at all.

 

-al.

 

On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 12:06 PM, kulcousy <kulcousy2 wrote:

 

>

>

> Hi

> I am being treated for atrial flutter by an experienced Dr here in Memphis.

> Because of language issues and time constraints I don't have a real good

> grasp of the dynamics. I saw another acuncturist in recent years and he

> wasn't as effective in treating me. I am far from out of the woods and would

> appreciate any insight. I have read Web that has no weaver.

> Thanks,

> John

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 12:57 PM, Al Stone <al wrote:

 

>

> 1. Heart in the Heart: palpitations + restlessness, irritability, sores

> inside the mouth, frequent bladder infections ( " Heart fire pouring

> downward " ), etc.

>

> Sorry, that should be *sores on the tongue*. Sores inside the mouth is

Stomach fire.

 

Air is kind of hot and smokey today. Makes me slow and stupid. Welcome to LA

during the fire season.

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I'll have to spend time digesting this.

What stands out is mention of fatigue at night in bed. I have experienced too

tired to sleep. Now though, I'm too tired to exist. Last night was the first

time in months this has come up. The practitioner I used to have told me that

this is not potentially fatal, though I can easily imagine having a heart

attack. At least he seemed familiar with the condition whereas the m.d.s only

scratch their heads. When the sun comes up my energy does, but the fatigue can

build alarmingly.

My doctor feels that liver is my most significant short coming and after 3

months of treatment I feel more balanced but he is unable to raise my " life

energy " level enough. As I have a life time record of tension deriving

originally from imbalanced skeleton and low back pain. I am coincidentally

experiencing improved skeletal balance and have high hopes that my energy will

flow freer as the muscles relax particulary in my trunk.

I took herbs from my former doctor but the current one has not prescribed them.

He has told me that he can best influence my heart indirectly and is not too

involved with or concerned about my periodic palpitations. Could you explain, if

you know, the " too tired " issue and how it relates to my palpitations, please?

 

Thank you Al for the generous use of your time,

John Caldwell

 

 

 

 

 

-

Al Stone

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Sunday, August 30, 2009 3:00 PM

Re: [Chinese Traditional Medicine] heart arrhythmia and TCM

 

 

On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 12:57 PM, Al Stone <al wrote:

 

>

> 1. Heart in the Heart: palpitations + restlessness, irritability, sores

> inside the mouth, frequent bladder infections ( " Heart fire pouring

> downward " ), etc.

>

> Sorry, that should be *sores on the tongue*. Sores inside the mouth is

Stomach fire.

 

Air is kind of hot and smokey today. Makes me slow and stupid. Welcome to LA

during the fire season.

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

[Guest guest]

On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 4:28 PM, John Caldwell <kulcousy2wrote:

 

>

>

> My doctor feels that liver is my most significant short coming and after 3

> months of treatment I feel more balanced but he is unable to raise my " life

> energy " level enough. As I have a life time record of tension deriving

> originally from imbalanced skeleton and low back pain. I am coincidentally

> experiencing improved skeletal balance and have high hopes that my energy

> will flow freer as the muscles relax particulary in my trunk.

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I can see you're focused on your skeletal system and various mechanical

issues. This is a common approach of chiropractors. Many acupuncturists are

focused on this kind of dynamic as well.

 

My own focus is internal medicine, so naturally, I'm thinking in these

terms.

 

The trunk muscles that are tight suggest " liver qi stagnation " . However I'm

not always sure which " liver " your doctor is treating. There is the Chinese

Liver and the Western liver. Two very different animals and the cause of

some confusion among doctors and patients alike. But hearing of muscle

tension suggests the Chinese Liver.

 

In short, the Heart stores the " shen " which translates to " spirit " . In

English that term can mean anything from one's enthusiasm for the local

team, to something that haunts castles. It is somewhat flexible in Chinese

too, especially because Chinese medicine (CM) has used the term over the

past 2k years.

 

But to put it into the present context, the Heart qi is the energy that is

the heart beat. It pushes blood through the vessels, etc. When there isn't

enough Heart qi, the rhythm of the beating as well as your perception of the

beating in the chest, can have problems. So, this may explain your

palpitations.

 

Because the qi of the Heart also assists with the Heart's other functions,

the Heart's function of storing the spirit is also undermined. In order to

sleep, the spirit must be rooted down or nourished by the Heart blood

(and/or yin). When the Heart blood, qi, yin, or yang is deficient, that

function of rooting the spirit (which by nature prefers to float upward) is

undermined leading to insomnia even with fatigue which is your qi

deficiency.

 

I'm not entirely clear on the exact mechanism involved, but I can offer what

one dictionary says of this:

 

Heart qi vacuity (deficiency) sleeplessness: An internal damage

sleeplessness pattern attributed to heart qi vacuity and the heart spirit

failing to contain itself and characterized by unquiet sleep, sudden waking

form sleep, heart palpitations, lassitude of spirit and lack of strength,

desire for heat and aversion to cold, and a forcelsss pulse that may be

slow. (though in your case, I'm guessing it could be fast and irregular too.

 

The formulas that this one book suggests include ren shen yang rong tang, or

gui pi tang.

 

Since your doctor is mentioning the liver, these may not apply, or your

doctor is thinking of this differently. Kind of hard to tell at this point.

 

-al.

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thanks Al for the helpful overview of the clinical approach to palpitations.

I do appreciate that internal conditions are driving this and are the path for

resolving the condition.

 

Going by his comments during the sessions he is focused on balancing my system,

not on treating the heart. I know that it came on slowly as my general health

deteriorated. So I agree with his approach and have felt that if I could get

some " help " from somewhere I could overcome, reverse the condition. TCM seems

the best bet for this " help " .

 

Which brings me to the next greatest problem I have with the treatment. I have

trouble " owning " the cure. I feel a great obligation for this gift if it comes

about. If the pills had worked, I would feel that I contributed to my healing as

it comes from my culture. I don't have this connection with the oriental

culture. I am not in control of my destiny and unless I resolve this the rest of

my life will be clouded by this debt. Any insight on this issue? It must not be

uncommon.

 

 

John

 

 

-

Al Stone

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Sunday, August 30, 2009 7:05 PM

Re: [Chinese Traditional Medicine] heart arrhythmia and TCM

 

 

On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 4:28 PM, John Caldwell

<kulcousy2wrote:

 

>

>

> My doctor feels that liver is my most significant short coming and after 3

> months of treatment I feel more balanced but he is unable to raise my " life

> energy " level enough. As I have a life time record of tension deriving

> originally from imbalanced skeleton and low back pain. I am coincidentally

> experiencing improved skeletal balance and have high hopes that my energy

> will flow freer as the muscles relax particulary in my trunk.

>

[Guest guest]

<kulcousy2 wrote:

> Which brings me to the next greatest problem I have with the treatment. I have

trouble " owning " the cure. I feel a great obligation for this gift if it comes

about. If the pills had worked, I would feel that I contributed to my healing as

it comes from my culture. I don't have this connection with the oriental

culture.

 

 

Actually, when you receive acupuncture treatment or herbs, you contribute to you

healing much more than by taking pills. Let me explain:

 

Most western pills work by directly targeting a certain symptom. The chemical in

the pill tries to solve the problem itself, ignoring the fact that the solution

would be the duty of the body's natural mechanisms.

On the other hand, CM therapies focus on wakeing up your body's natural

mechanisms. A needle cannot heal you, it's only a needle. Your body's inherent

processes influenced by the needle will be the cure.

I hope this helps you to experience acupuncture as a natural thing and not some

esoteric oriental magic.

 

Also, you need to know I'm just on the DIY level in CM. I'd be glad if an

educated person on this list confirmed or corrected what I said.

 

Tamas

[Guest guest]

On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 8:58 PM, John Caldwell <kulcousy2wrote:

 

>

>

> Going by his comments during the sessions he is focused on balancing my

> system, not on treating the heart.

>

 

 

 

 

That's mostly semantics. If English were my second language, I might default

to some statement like that too.

 

Which brings me to the next greatest problem I have with the treatment. I

> have trouble " owning " the cure. I feel a great obligation for this gift if

> it comes about. If the pills had worked, I would feel that I contributed to

> my healing as it comes from my culture.

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not relating to this very well. Do you prefer going to Wendy's (American

fast-food) rather than Panda Express (Chinese fast-food) because it came

from your culture? I mean, you probably enjoy food from wherever it comes,

provided you like it, of course. I approach medicine the same way. Whatever

works, great. Its not the Yankees vs. the Lakers, it is all human culture.

 

I think that the important thing to remember here is that your brain is not

always your friend. In fact, when you feel your palpitations, go back a few

minutes and look for a thought or some thinking that caused an emotional

upset. I find this with my ear ringling/whistling. Sometimes I get this

really high pitched squeal, but it only arises after some thinking that

upset me.

 

Thoughts such as " this is the medicine of MY culture, and the other is not "

isn't especially important for the treatment to help. You don't have to

believe in acupuncture or Chinese religion or anything. Still works some of

the time and doesn't some of the time.

 

All you really need is for your acupuncturist to explain the neurological

mechanisms that allow a needle inserted along a point to regulate the

heartbeat. Once someone can articulate that for you, your brain will be

happy again.

 

For the record, points inserted along the trajectory of the Heart, Small

Intestine, and perhaps Pericardium channel will meet up with the nerve that

enters the heart as it ascends the spinal cord. Because of this adjacent

location of the nerve, when there is a heart problem, the pain can appear to

radiate down in to the left arm. I'm guessing that these acupoints also

affect some of the portions of the brain that regulate heartbeat too.

 

Problem with Western research on the affects of acupuncture is wherever they

look, they find something!

 

-al.

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine , " John Caldwell " <kulcousy2 wrote:

>

> TCM seems the best bet for this " help " .

>

> Which brings me to the next greatest problem I have with the treatment. I have

trouble " owning " the cure. I feel a great obligation for this gift if it comes

about. If the pills had worked, I would feel that I contributed to my healing as

it comes from my culture. I don't have this connection with the oriental

culture. I am not in control of my destiny and unless I resolve this the rest of

my life will be clouded by this debt. Any insight on this issue? It must not be

uncommon.

>

>

> John

 

 

I am also having a bit of trouble clearly understanding.

 

So if I were to paraphrase the way I understand it in my own words, I would say

something like you feel that you want to feel that you are a significant part of

your healing process, and if you don't, you'll feel like you owe someone big

time? You also feel that if the healing comes from TCM that it's not really a

part of you, and your culture and or ancestors didn't rally create that form of

healing? But if you use western medicine, than it feels like less is owed

because it's part of your culture?

 

If that's within the ballpark, I'd like to share something else. If not, then

this part probably isn't too applicable =)

 

The way I am sensing what you've said is that if it is within your culture, it

feels like a part of you, so it might feel like the " cure " comes from within,

and TCM might feel like it is not a part of you because it does not come from

your culture, so it might feel something like searching for an internal issue

externally? What I get is that you feel the need to be a part of your healing

process, that feels very real to me.

 

If it is that you are looking to be a part of your process, and you want the

healing to come from within (all of which sounds connected and truthful to me),

you might want to try opening up to different ways that might look, and opening

up to the possibility that you might have a particular expectation for the way

you want things to look.

 

If the root feeling is I want to be a part of this, and I feel like I need to be

a part of this, trust that, then be open to different ways that opportunity can

present itself to you, and you might find that things start working out more and

more =)

[Guest guest]

Yes that's it precisely.

I have been changed in the direction of health. I know it's a rational system,

not mystical. Frankly the western philosophy has been exposed as inadequate

(along with my health food practices). I can't accept the treatment then return

to where I was before as I would have had I just come from " the doctor's

office " . Further, how can I trust our institutions which are formed with the

same flawed reasoning?

Does this sound like the rantings of some drama queen?

 

John

 

 

 

 

 

-

mrasmm

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Tuesday, September 01, 2009 4:43 PM

[Chinese Traditional Medicine] Re: heart arrhythmia and TCM

 

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine , " John Caldwell " <kulcousy2

wrote:

>

> TCM seems the best bet for this " help " .

>

> Which brings me to the next greatest problem I have with the treatment. I

have trouble " owning " the cure. I feel a great obligation for this gift if it

comes about. If the pills had worked, I would feel that I contributed to my

healing as it comes from my culture. I don't have this connection with the

oriental culture. I am not in control of my destiny and unless I resolve this

the rest of my life will be clouded by this debt. Any insight on this issue? It

must not be uncommon.

>

>

> John

 

I am also having a bit of trouble clearly understanding.

 

So if I were to paraphrase the way I understand it in my own words, I would

say something like you feel that you want to feel that you are a significant

part of your healing process, and if you don't, you'll feel like you owe someone

big time? You also feel that if the healing comes from TCM that it's not really

a part of you, and your culture and or ancestors didn't rally create that form

of healing? But if you use western medicine, than it feels like less is owed

because it's part of your culture?

 

If that's within the ballpark, I'd like to share something else. If not, then

this part probably isn't too applicable =)

 

The way I am sensing what you've said is that if it is within your culture, it

feels like a part of you, so it might feel like the " cure " comes from within,

and TCM might feel like it is not a part of you because it does not come from

your culture, so it might feel something like searching for an internal issue

externally? What I get is that you feel the need to be a part of your healing

process, that feels very real to me.

 

If it is that you are looking to be a part of your process, and you want the

healing to come from within (all of which sounds connected and truthful to me),

you might want to try opening up to different ways that might look, and opening

up to the possibility that you might have a particular expectation for the way

you want things to look.

 

If the root feeling is I want to be a part of this, and I feel like I need to

be a part of this, trust that, then be open to different ways that opportunity

can present itself to you, and you might find that things start working out more

and more =)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine , " John Caldwell " <kulcousy2 wrote:

>

> Yes that's it precisely.

> I have been changed in the direction of health. I know it's a rational system,

not mystical. Frankly the western philosophy has been exposed as inadequate

(along with my health food practices). I can't accept the treatment then return

to where I was before as I would have had I just come from " the doctor's

office " . Further, how can I trust our institutions which are formed with the

same flawed reasoning?

> Does this sound like the rantings of some drama queen?

>

> John

 

 

This is also a bit on the difficult end for me to understand.

 

I'd like to get some clarification on a couple of things.

 

Which system are you saying is rational not mystical, TCM or western medicine?

 

So are you saying that you feel like you've come to realize that western

medicine has basically hit its limit as far as being able to help you? Or what

do you mean by " return to where I was before " ?

 

What specific flawed reasoning are you talking about? Are you talking about

western medicine, or TCM?

[Guest guest]

Hi

Sorry that this wasn't clear. I Was referring to TCM when I said I knew it was

rational and western medicine when I was critical. Hope that is clearer.

 

I have a couple of general questions about the treatment if someone would please

comment.

My schedule is 3 days per week over the weekend due to the traveling schedule of

my dom. As the 4 day interim ends I fail rapidly and experience many symptoms

(palpitations and weakness). It is discouraging. Yet, at the same time I

experience relaxation and less conflicts in my mind and body as if some negative

influence associated with the effects of treatment is wearing off. Also, my

appetite increases. I am at this point now and am experiencing a slight

favorable rebound this morning. I may skip today's appointment to see if the

decline levels off and to see if diet choices help me stabilize. I have noticed

that acupuncture treatments tend to have the side effect of disturbance along

with many obvious benefits.

Please comment on this.

Thank you,

John Caldwell

 

 

 

 

 

-

mrasmm

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Wednesday, September 02, 2009 5:28 PM

[Chinese Traditional Medicine] Re: heart arrhythmia and TCM

 

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine , " John Caldwell " <kulcousy2

wrote:

>

> Yes that's it precisely.

> I have been changed in the direction of health. I know it's a rational

system, not mystical. Frankly the western philosophy has been exposed as

inadequate (along with my health food practices). I can't accept the treatment

then return to where I was before as I would have had I just come from " the

doctor's office " . Further, how can I trust our institutions which are formed

with the same flawed reasoning?

> Does this sound like the rantings of some drama queen?

>

> John

 

This is also a bit on the difficult end for me to understand.

 

I'd like to get some clarification on a couple of things.

 

Which system are you saying is rational not mystical, TCM or western medicine?

 

So are you saying that you feel like you've come to realize that western

medicine has basically hit its limit as far as being able to help you? Or what

do you mean by " return to where I was before " ?

 

What specific flawed reasoning are you talking about? Are you talking about

western medicine, or TCM?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 8:20 AM, John Caldwell <kulcousy2wrote:

 

>

>

> As the 4 day interim ends I fail rapidly and experience many symptoms

> (palpitations and weakness). It is discouraging. Yet, at the same time I

> experience relaxation and less conflicts in my mind and body as if some

> negative influence associated with the effects of treatment is wearing off.

> Also, my appetite increases.

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Everybody's different in this regard, but one way that this can play out is

that with each treatment, you feel better for a little bit longer time until

the treatments keep your symptoms away for the entire period between

sessions.

 

 

> I am at this point now and am experiencing a slight favorable rebound this

> morning. I may skip today's appointment to see if the decline levels off and

> to see if diet choices help me stabilize.

>

 

 

 

 

 

What you're experiencing *right now* is rarely a good indication of

anything. I encourage anybody getting treatments not to assess themselves

every five minutes. You'll be chasing every single sensation in your body

but this is of no therapeutic benefit to you.

 

Take a longer view of things, ignore the daily ups and downs. Try averaging

your energy level out, or number of noticeable palpitations over a week. Log

that, and compare your findings over a period of a month. That's how you

should be assessing this.

 

 

> I have noticed that acupuncture treatments tend to have the side effect of

> disturbance along with many obvious benefits.

>

 

 

 

 

It is VERY easy to generate symptoms when you're looking for them,

especially for neurological issues or TCM Heart issues which often affect

the spirit. The spirit is light and easily blown about by emotions or

obsessive observations.

 

I should also add that the problems that you're having treated are, in my

mind, perfectly valid, real, etc. My concern is mostly just paying too much

attention to your symptoms, they can be easily created by the mind... and

easily rectified as well.

 

-al.

 

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine , " John Caldwell " <kulcousy2 wrote:

>

> Hi

> Sorry that this wasn't clear. I Was referring to TCM when I said I knew it was

rational and western medicine when I was critical. Hope that is clearer.

>

> I have a couple of general questions about the treatment if someone would

please comment.

> My schedule is 3 days per week over the weekend due to the traveling schedule

of my dom. As the 4 day interim ends I fail rapidly and experience many symptoms

(palpitations and weakness). It is discouraging. Yet, at the same time I

experience relaxation and less conflicts in my mind and body as if some negative

influence associated with the effects of treatment is wearing off. Also, my

appetite increases. I am at this point now and am experiencing a slight

favorable rebound this morning. I may skip today's appointment to see if the

decline levels off and to see if diet choices help me stabilize. I have noticed

that acupuncture treatments tend to have the side effect of disturbance along

with many obvious benefits.

> Please comment on this.

> Thank you,

> John Caldwell

 

There may be a difference between you not being clear and me not understanding

=) I just felt like I didn't understand things enough to respond; I get it now.

 

I would tend to agree with Al. From my view it seems like something that could

be more of an anchor or a grounding of sorts might be quite useful to you.

Something that you could look at over time.

 

With what Al said in mind here's an analogy for you, if you are at the beach and

you think of the water height, it will always vary. Those variations create

what we call waves. The constant changing is OK and normal, but when the

overall picture says the waves are getting too big over time that's when the

concern arises. The fact that there are variations in the symptoms isn't as

concerning, unless the overall pattern or severity changes.

 

If overall and over time it feels like the treatment is doing something for you

that you want or like, keep doing it =) If the overall balance looks like it's

doing things you don't like or don't want, then it might be time to start

looking at the opportunities and possibilities around you.

 

The simpler things can be viewed, the simpler they are; and simple concerns are,

well, simple® to address =)

 

It sounds understandable to me that you feel like things slow down after a few

days without treatment and you start to feel symptoms coming back. You might

also want to ask your practitioner if there is something you can do over the

weekend to help keep the momentum of the treatments going, say some self

acupressure, herbs or maybe some meditation.