Fibromyalgia

[Guest guest]

Try seeing it as a LV offending Earth situation.

 

Almost always you will find a LV-emotional problem, almost always an

anger issue, almost always an unexpressed anger kind.

 

This will have substrated for 10 years or more, person is contained and well

structured.

 

You may find lateral-based signs such as, from top to feet:

at head - migraine and problems in the outer field of vision

at neck - tight root of the neck muscles

at shoulder - stiffness pain periarthritis tight ligaments

at chest - tender intercostals, a v tender SP 21

at K mu - a tenderness tightness reflex

at hip - pain arthritis

at knee - lateral meniscus pain

at leg - 'emptiness' at GB pts

at ankle - tendency to sprain, but inwards

 

Add to these some LV midline signs till the genital root area.

 

Next come to later-happening ST-SP illness pattern, where the 'myalgia'

component

kicks in; the 'fibro' being th LV tendinous part.

 

There'll be lots of ST rising signs like water brash and lax ST and

digestive problems.

 

O boy. Look for and exclude Gluten allergy!

 

The pulse will show a Full and congested guan; rarely a wiry aspect.

 

Tongue will show LV crenellations on side, purplish segments. Later it may

show fissures in ST area.

 

Tender points may surface at great toe, same side; LV 14 which will vary

between

v painful [LV excess] to dull pain [LV deficient].

 

Finally look for a Design or sequence in the story, and things are clinched.

 

Treatment is LV based, not to treat the muscles for pain.

If you are right in approach, taking care of LV will settle the pain, often

in the

first sitting.

 

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states.

[Guest guest]

Holly-

I've always found GB 34 to be an excellent

fibromyalgia point, in general. I use it almost

always. JG

--- Holly Green <ridndiv wrote:

> Any ideas on treatment for Fibromyalgia using TCM

> methods? Looking for

> ideas. Thanks Holly G

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Tax Center - File online by April 15th

http://taxes./filing.html

[Guest guest]

What I find interesting about the discussions about fibromyalgia so far

are that recommendations are given, although well thought out, for

treatment of a disease that has a certain amount of variance from

patient to patient. Like most chronic disorders, there are stages,

degrees of severity, and predominance of symptom pictures. There is no

'one size fits all' treatment for fibromylagia.

 

Chinese medicine gets around this problem by using pattern

differentiation. We individualize the pattern for each patient, with

pulse and tongue diagnosis, and take the case for symptoms and signs.

We then decide the individualized treatment for the patient

accordingly.

 

This may be common sense to many on this site, but the number of

questions put to the profession about 'treatment of (name your

disease)' is largely self-defeating without treatment of patterns.

What if the patient doesn't fit Dr. Holme's liver based pattern

treatment? I think if we are offering suggestions or solutions, we

should also offer the caveat that it won't be appropriate treatment for

all patients diagnosed with this condition.

 

 

On Apr 16, 2004, at 8:50 AM, John Garbarini wrote:

 

> Holly-

>   I've always found GB 34 to be an excellent

> fibromyalgia point, in general. I use it almost

> always. JG

> --- Holly Green <ridndiv wrote:

> > Any ideas on treatment for Fibromyalgia using TCM

> > methods? Looking for

> > ideas. Thanks Holly G

> >

> >

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > removed]

> >

> >

>

>

>

>      

>            

>

>

> Tax Center - File online by April 15th

> http://taxes./filing.html

>

>

> Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear,

> religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear.

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>

[Guest guest]

I was able to use scalp needles to alleviate the pain and improve mobility

and range of movement. Do it weekly.

 

Mike L.

 

Holly Green <ridndiv wrote:

Any ideas on treatment for Fibromyalgia using TCM methods? Looking for

ideas. Thanks Holly G

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

:

What if the patient doesn't fit Dr. Holme's liver based pattern

treatment? I think if we are offering suggestions or solutions, we

should also offer the caveat that it won't be appropriate treatment for

all patients diagnosed with this condition.

>

>

How can it not fit?

I work with Design, and that is just of so many types.

 

5-E possibilities are limited by 5 variable permuted 5 times 5.

 

Even if I went in looking for a different pattern I would not find one.

 

There would be variations in degree and intensity, but the overall pattern

would remain the same.

 

Long after I was working with Designs I came upon the Fiftieth Difficult

Issue in

Nan-Ching [p. 474] which states:

 

" Among the illnesses are the depletion evil, the repletion evil, the

destroyer

evil, weakness evil, and the regular evil. "

 

Of all these the destroyer evil is the nasty one and almost all the

illnesses you

see which are chronic are from this variety.

 

The Wood " destroyer evil " Earth pattern is the one fibro + myos falls into.

 

The fun part is that this preempts the Rx something neat. All you do work

with LV, and decide if it is in Excess or just stagnant.

 

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states.

[Guest guest]

Mike:

I was able to use scalp needles to alleviate the pain and improve mobility

and range of movement. Do it weekly.

>

>

Can you talk a little more of the areas?

 

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states.

[Guest guest]

Dr. Holmes,

I am also a student of the Nan Jing, and I have to admire your

elegant protocols that you've developed. There is some difficulty in

discussing your personal method without my studying it further, i.e.

the idea of Design. However, I have to disagree with your analysis of

fibromyalgia as a destroyer evil exclusively.

 

Difficult Issue 50 classifies the various types of internal and

external causes of disease (nei shang/internal damage, wai gan/exterior

contraction) as vacuity evils, caused by wind strike, damage by heat,

regular evils, damage by cold, weakness/faint evils, damage by

unregulated food, drink and taxation, repletion evils, and damage by

dampness, destroyer or thief evils. These causes of disease/bing yin

are then classified according to five phase theory in how they interact

with the channels, connecting vessels, and zang-fu.

 

To sum up, this would mean that fibromyalgia is caused by

predominantly a damp evil. How does this fit with the idea of a liver

pattern, since the Nan Jing indicates that dampness evils primarily

effect the kidneys. As it says in one commentary, " the kidneys, which

are associated with the water phase, contract the disease first " . Or,

in another, " the kidneys rule humidity. Water overpowers fire.

Therefore, this represents a 'destroyer/thief evil'. (Unschuld

translation).

 

A disease 'coming from what cannot be overcome' may include the

liver in terms of phase dynamics, but certainly not exclusively so.

 

 

 

On Apr 16, 2004, at 10:02 AM, Dr. Holmes Keikobad wrote:

 

>

> Long after I was working with Designs I came upon the Fiftieth

> Difficult

> Issue in

> Nan-Ching [p. 474] which states:

>

> " Among the illnesses are the depletion evil, the repletion evil, the

> destroyer

> evil, weakness evil, and the regular evil. "

>

> Of all these the destroyer evil is the nasty one and almost all the

> illnesses you

> see which are chronic are from this variety.

>

> The Wood " destroyer evil " Earth pattern is the one fibro + myos falls

> into.

>

> The fun part is that this preempts the Rx something neat. All you do

> work

> with LV, and decide if it is in Excess or just stagnant.

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Z'ev,

 

Your points are well taken!

 

Given the personal constraint, I do take the liberty of making the assumption

that these fundamental pattern discrimination " goes without saying. "

 

When I replied with a suggestion of using scalp needles, I certainly hope

the reader realizes he/she has to select the right lines to needle, which

takes fundamental pattern dscrimination. Besides, pointing out a

particular technique or points to use is just a reference, or a reminder

of the possibilities, particularly when what is given is just a western

diagnosis. It will be up to the inquirer to apply (with pattern discrimination,

hopefully) properly. Otherwise, for every disease brought up, wouldn't one

end up having to write a chapter to talk about possible patterns?

 

Mike L.

 

 

<zrosenbe wrote:

What I find interesting about the discussions about fibromyalgia so far

are that recommendations are given, although well thought out, for

treatment of a disease that has a certain amount of variance from

patient to patient. Like most chronic disorders, there are stages,

degrees of severity, and predominance of symptom pictures. There is no

'one size fits all' treatment for fibromylagia.

 

Chinese medicine gets around this problem by using pattern

differentiation. We individualize the pattern for each patient, with

pulse and tongue diagnosis, and take the case for symptoms and signs.

We then decide the individualized treatment for the patient

accordingly.

 

This may be common sense to many on this site, but the number of

questions put to the profession about 'treatment of (name your

disease)' is largely self-defeating without treatment of patterns.

What if the patient doesn't fit Dr. Holme's liver based pattern

treatment? I think if we are offering suggestions or solutions, we

should also offer the caveat that it won't be appropriate treatment for

all patients diagnosed with this condition.

 

 

On Apr 16, 2004, at 8:50 AM, John Garbarini wrote:

 

> Holly-

> I've always found GB 34 to be an excellent

> fibromyalgia point, in general. I use it almost

> always. JG

> --- Holly Green wrote:

> > Any ideas on treatment for Fibromyalgia using TCM

> > methods? Looking for

> > ideas. Thanks Holly G

> >

> >

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > removed]

> >

>

>

> Tax Center - File online by April 15th

> http://taxes./filing.html

>

>

> Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear,

> religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear.

>

> To change your email delivery settings,

> Chinese Medicine/ click

> ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly.

>

> If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop

> being delivered.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I hear you.

 

I gues to each his way.

Thansk for sharing though, and I will keep the eluciadtion in mind.

 

Best

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states.

[Guest guest]

Yes,

A good discussion. I'm willing to continue it any time, as it is hard

to find practitioners like yourself who draw from the Nan Jing.

 

 

On Apr 16, 2004, at 2:56 PM, homi kaikobad wrote:

 

> I hear you.

>

> I gues to each his way.

> Thansk for sharing though, and I will keep the eluciadtion in mind.

>

> Best

> Dr. Holmes Keikobad

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Holmes,

 

To fibromyalgia patients, typical top priorities are:

- relieving the pain

- increase range of movement of all limbs and trunk

- mobility

 

I mostly focus on the sensory lines and motor lines by

crossing from sensory line to the motor line at the

points corresponding to the legs and arms. At times,

pre-motor area points can be used to assist.

I tried needling along the motor or sensory lines before

but they seem to be less effective.

 

After needles are in, I'd exert energy (with Qi Gong) through

the fingertips to the needles with a type of micro thrusting.

The patient typically don't feel any pain but just tightness

in the scalp. Apply this every 10~15 minutes. After each

application of this techniquie, ask the patient to try

movement, challenging gradually the movement that used

to cause pain.

 

Of course, this is only the " generic " part for treating this type of

problem; one should also pay attention to the overall

picture of the patient, as Z'ev reminded us earlier.

 

I hope this helps!

 

Mike L.

 

" Dr. Holmes Keikobad " <acuheal wrote:

Mike:

I was able to use scalp needles to alleviate the pain and improve mobility

and range of movement. Do it weekly.

>

>

Can you talk a little more of the areas?

 

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states.

 

 

 

 

Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam

messages,flame another member or swear.

 

To change your email delivery settings,

Chinese Medicine/ click #58637;dit my

membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly.

 

If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being

delivered.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Mike L:

I mostly focus on the sensory lines and motor lines by

crossing from sensory line to the motor line at the

points corresponding to the legs and arms. At times,

pre-motor area points can be used to assist.

>

>

Thanks for the clarification.

I am not well versed with the topographical description of zones. Tried to

read up the eding et al zones but ended up confused; and let go.

 

Was in San Fran once and made an attempt to look up a doctor who taught

this;

ended up not finding the place, and coming upon a charming little cafe on

the waters

on a house boat, and came to terms with bad poetry and good wine, and thus

accounted for the day in good order.

 

But remained innocent of the zones!

 

Is there a sort of simpler chart which one can use? Or is this blasphemy?

 

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states.

[Guest guest]

Homi,

 

You can use the description for Jiao Shunfa's system in the following page:

 

http://www.healthy.net/asp/templates/article.asp?ID=2040

 

For a picture, look at

 

http://www.itmonline.org/arts/newscalp.htm

 

Or, buy a book by Jiao Shunfa at:

http://www.paramountmagic.com/pd_scalp.cfm, or

http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/ts/exchange-glance/Y01Y4420099Y9549048/002-0896\

968-5841628

 

 

Note that Jiao Shunfa's system is the one that has been accepted as the

" standard " for scap acupuncture, and is used in the textbook for

Shanghai TCM Univ. Zhu Mingqing's system is derived from that.

 

Mike L.

homi kaikob<aryaone wrote:

 

Is there a sort of simpler chart which one can use? Or is this blasphemy?

 

 

 

 

 

Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢

 

 

[Guest guest]

I am obliged to you for your help.

Will follow up.

 

Regards

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states.

[Guest guest]

I have fibro and I use Sam-E it works wonders!!

 

 

Hugs

Deana

[Guest guest]

Robyn,

 

Science on fibromyalgia shows about 1/3 relate to low growth

hormone HGH secretion, which impairs all growth and recovery and

the repair of daily or accumulated damage. A few of my fibro

clients responded very quickly to HGH increase, some in just

days. Here's the science and pertinent links; note the link to

audio archives of doctors discussing their success with a range

of conditions.

 

http://members.shaw.ca/SomaLife-gHP/

 

Other science points out the fatigue portion may be the result of

antioxidant pool depletion, particularly glutathione, which is

also a crucial part of mitochondrial ATP (energy) production:

http://members.shaw.ca/duncancrow/glutathione-references.html

 

Several interesting points made in my autoimmune disorders

protocol apply to fibromyalgia:

http://members.shaw.ca/duncancrow/degeneratives_autoimmunes_protoc

ol.html

 

This is the same -proof link:

 

http://tinyurl.com/8j6oq

 

Sorry, I can't help with sleep apnea or hernia.

 

Duncan Crow

 

On 18 Oct 2006 at 11:25,

[Alternative_Medicine_Fo

rum] Digest Number 2623 wrote:

 

>

> Posted by: " snickers2261 " long.robin snickers2261

> Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:40 am (PDT)

>

> Are there any recommendations on what to do about fibromyalgia? How

> about hyatial hernia and sleep apnea?

>

> Thank You!

> ~Robin

[Guest guest]

Fibromyalgia and sleep apnea are both symptoms of thyroid disorder.

www.drlowe.com for more info on fibro and thyroid.

do a google on sleep apnea and thyroid.

[Guest guest]

Hypothyroidism is being explored as a possible root cause of

fibromyalgia. Sleep apnea is often a sign of hypothyroidism. My FIL

was diagnosed with his hypothyroid problems when he went to a sleep

clinic for his apnea. Does the same person have fibromyalgia and sleep

apna? They might want to get tested for hypoT.

 

Some tests to start with would include TSH, free T4, free T3, iron,

ferritin (storage iron) & cortisol levels thru 4x/day saliva testing.

Cortisol is needed to get the thyroid into the cells. It's not

uncommon to be low on it when hypothyroid. You might also want to get

an iodine loading test, if your doc is familiar with Brownstein's

work. Iodine is essential to thyroid function.

 

The new range for TSH is .3 to 3. Make sure your doc uses that, not

the old one of .5 - 5. Research is pointing towards treatment when TSH

his the 2 - 2.5 range when hypothyroid symptoms are also present. Make

sure your doc tests FREE T4/T3, not just total. Free show what is

actually bio-available, not tied up. T3 is the active form of the

thyroid hormone T4. Some people have trouble with conversion of T4 to

T3. Their T4 levels might look fine but they feel lousy & their T3

levels are in the basement. So get both.

 

Iron is needed for thyroid function. Its important to check your

storage levels (ferritin) as well as serum levels.

 

You may also want to read Dr. Lowe's site & his book " The Metabolic

Tratment of Fibromyalgia " .

http://www.drlowe.com/index.htm

 

, " snickers2261 "

<long.robin wrote:

>

> Are there any recommendations on what to do about fibromyalgia? How

> about hyatial hernia and sleep apnea?

>

> Thank You!

> ~Robin

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Robin,

I am new here and wanted to offer some advice since I too was diagnosed with

FM.

One thing that I would suggest is to get your hormones checked, esp your

thyroid.

A lot of people " diagnosed " with FM have been misdiagnosed while suffering

with Hypothyroidism. Myself included. Sleep apnea falls into the hypothyroid

catagory as well. Blood tests aren't always reliable when it comes to detecting

hypothyroidism, so you may wish to seek and ND. I have a lot of helpful sites

with top Drs listed per state if you would like.

You may want to check out the Goji juice from Genesis or another brand that is

just pure Goji. Why pay for all those cheaper juices to be added? They also

have Noni juice which I take to help my immune system out and that also helps

balance pH.

A good green drink is always beneficial and some can even replace those

synthetic multi's ,but if you are hypothyroid, you may want to be careful in

what other green veggies are added. Things like kale, spinach, cabbage, soy,

broccoli, etc will not be good for your thyroid in excess. The greens should

help balance your pH as well. My view is to find out what started this whole

out of balance within your body and everything will fall into place from there.

It sounds like you are on the right path to better health and I wish you well.

Hope that was helpful.

Tara

 

snickers2261 <long.robin wrote:

I've probably mentioned that I have this before, but I'm looking for

other things I can be doing to help heal myself.

 

First off, I started drinking Goji juice. I've been told this has

powerful healing benefits & have read alot about it. Though others

tell me that the concentrated other juices in it are full of sugar

and that's not good. But I do know that it did help me to get

better. I also take MSM. Recently I have purchased some nutritional

green powder full of chlorella and spriulla(not sure I spelled these

right) of blue green algea, amongst other things. I can tell it is

helping me to get regular and cleaning things out. I also have sleep

apnea and hiatal hernia. My PH balance is still at 5. My diet is

also about 90% all organic with raw organic fruits and vegies daily.

I don't exercise much except walking because my muscles just hurt.

The cold weather doesn't help with the pain either.

 

Now....does anyone have any suggestions on what else I can do? I'm

looking into the olive leaf extract and wondering if that might

help. But I'm also wondering what is going to help get my body PH

level up? I'd love to hear suggestions and thoughts.

 

Thank you so much!

~Robin

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We have the perfect Group for you. Check out the handy changes to .

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thank you so much for being so sweet and helping me! I actually did

have my thyroids all tested through and Endocrinologist back in May,

right when all this started. She even did an ultrasound on my

thyroids. She came up with nothing. The only thing I can relate to

all the symptoms appearing with the fibromyalgia was stress. I've

had the sleep apnea for 12 yrs. You're right tho, I'm trying to find

answers and also what will heal me. I'm definitely going to see a

Naturopathic doctor for sure. I don't know much about the ones in my

town, so it's pretty much a guess by going through the yellow pages.

Though if you have info, that would be great!

 

thanks again!

~Robin

[Guest guest]

I also have fms and just started an acupuncture, twice a week regimen, and after

the first appt noticed a difference in my sleep, i never get into the deep REM

sleep where I dream, now i do!

 

 

 

 

 

Dreams are the seeds of Reality, that's what Mom always said, So Dream Big!!!

Love Becca

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Robin,

Everything that you are doing sounds great. But you forgot magnesium. Now,

there are approximately seven kinds of magnesium that are used for supplements.

The trick is finding the one or perhaps two that will work for you. Not all

kinds of magnesium will work for an individual. A very good kind of magnesium

if it works for you is in power form - CALM. It is fast acting. Just make sure

you take enough. I used to hurt all the time and was in bed for days at a time.

I took 1500 mg of magnesium in the morning and just before going to bed. In two

years I was over the debilitating pain. I was taking other things as well. A

lot of people that I've recommended magnesium to have been helped over a lot of

ailments including fibromyalgia.

Good success.

Sam

 

Tara Borosh <colbyjack98 wrote: I am new here and wanted to offer

some advice since I too was diagnosed with FM. One thing that I would suggest is

to get your hormones checked, esp your thyroid.

[Guest guest]

Yes,

that has helped me as well, and a good brand.

I tried sending it over as an after thought plus the exercises that I was able

to do in the begining like yoga and thai chi. Epsom salt is nice to add to your

warm bath water and that contains Mg as well.

Okay, here's hoping this one goes through

Tara

 

Sandra Zawada <skzawada wrote:

Robin,

Everything that you are doing sounds great. But you forgot magnesium. Now, there

are approximately seven kinds of magnesium that are used for supplements. The

trick is finding the one or perhaps two that will work for you. Not all kinds of

magnesium will work for an individual. A very good kind of magnesium if it works

for you is in power form - CALM. It is fast acting. Just make sure you take

enough. I used to hurt all the time and was in bed for days at a time. I took

1500 mg of magnesium in the morning and just before going to bed. In two years I

was over the debilitating pain. I was taking other things as well. A lot of

people that I've recommended magnesium to have been helped over a lot of

ailments including fibromyalgia.

Good success.

Sam

 

Tara Borosh <colbyjack98 wrote: I am new here and wanted to offer

some advice since I too was diagnosed with FM. One thing that I would suggest is

to get your hormones checked, esp your thyroid.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Get your email and see which of your friends are online - Right on the new

.com

 

 

[Guest guest]

Just because the labs don't show thyroid problems doesn't mean you don't

have them.

How is your body temp?Anything below 97.8 is too low.

This is one of the most reliable tests especially when labs show

nothing.I had Fibro labs were fine and I suffered.

I finally found out about Wilson's syndrome and also Dr Lowe who has

done definitive work on thyroid and Fibro.

www.drlowe.com.

Dr Lowe explains this as low metabolic syndrome.Go to his site and read

his work.He also has a couple books.

Also I might ad that my thyroid problem was caused by mercury .Almost

eveyone I know with high mercury levels has a thyroid problem.The two

just go together.

Also the new Fibro and Fatigue Clinics are treating Fibro with

hormones,detox etc.

Chantal

[Guest guest]

We get a few new members to the Chinese Traditional Medicine group every week.

 

They often describe what they're dealing with healthwise when they

.

 

One d today who mentioned Fibromyalgia.

 

I believe that many of us have some positive experiences with treating this.

I know that I've had some success with acupuncture as acupuncture is good

for pain, especially when there is no particular structural issue causing

it.

 

My own take is that this is often stress-induced or aggravated, as such the

treatment principle is to simply relax or nourish the blood of the " Liver " .

This is often done with acupuncture and/or herbs.

 

However, Fibromyalgia (FM henceforth) can also be damp stagnation in the

case of someone who's body also feels heavy, or maybe some blood stagnation

if the pain is more sharp and fixed in location than qi stagnation which

causes pain that is more regional and even wandering.

 

Anyway, feel free to jump in with your favorite treatments. Links to

websites that sell something proprietary don't always make it to the list,

so if you only want to share some websites, make sure that you suggest a

link to a page that educates more than sells...

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.