herpes

May 21, 2002

The idea of deep-lying or hidden (fu2) evils goes back to the Nei

Jing. Sorry, I haven't read the book on warm disease theory you

mention. I came up with the idea that the herpes virus may be thought

of as a hidden warm evil more than ten years ago. (I believe this

description also fits Hep C, HIV, and HPV during latent phases.)

Although I came up with this idea on my own before seeing any Chinese

sources who had described these conditions this way, since then I have

come across several Chinese corroborations. For instance, Xing Bing

Zheng Zhi (Proven Treatments for Sexual Diseases), Zhong Yi Zhi Liao

Ai Zi Bing ( in the Treatment of AIDs),Bing Du Xing

Gan Yan De Zhong Yi Zhi Liao (The Chinese Medical Treatment of Viral

Hepatitis), Bing Du Xing Ji Bing De Liang Fang Miao Fa (Fine Formulas

& Wonderous Methods for the Treatment of Viral Diseases), and Bing Du

Xing Ji Bing De Zhong Yi Zhi Liao (The Chinese Medical Treatment of

Viral Diseases) as well as a number of Chinese medical journal

articles discuss these kinds of viral diseases as warm epidemic evils,

damp heat toxins, hidden warm evils, and seasonal diseases. I believe

we ran a contemporary Chinese article on hidden evils vis a vis a

viral disease in a recent Blue Poppy e-zine. I know I posted one

somewhere on the Web in the last 6-12 months, and I posted it

specifically because it corroborated my own opinions.

In terms of the premodern literature, from what I've been able to

find, hidden warm evils are mostly discussed in the literature on shi2

bing3 (seasonal diseases). A number of years ago I found a

contemporary Chinese reprint of a Qing dynasty (late 1800s) book on

seasonal diseases in a bookstore in S.F. Chinatown. At the time, my

Chinese was only good enough to recognize the words hidden warm evils

in the table of contents. I bought the book ($2-3) and then searched

around for someone to translate the book for me. I found an American

Chinese translator who was interested in Chinese medicine who lived in

the Bay area. So I loaned her the book. She took the book to an " old

Chinese doctor " friend of hers who said the book was very good and

very useful. So useful, in fact, that I never got it back and,

unfortunately, have never been able to find another copy. I do have a

copy of the Qing dynasty Shi2 Bing3 Lun3 and it contains a number of

sections on various kinds of hidden evils -- hidden dampness, hidden

dryness, hidden summerheat, and hidden qi.

That being said, although the theory of hidden warm or damp heat

evils/toxins lodged in the blood aspect or division helps explain the

latency and remittency of a number of viral diseases, it does not seem

to lead to any effective therapies for the cure of these diseases,

and, that, it seems to me, is the really important thing. Neither

clearing heat from the blood nor upbearing and out-thrusting seem to

eliminate these evils from the body completely, though they may reduce

the frequency and virulence of outbreaks. The most useful thing about

the theory of hidden evils to me is that, based on this theory, one

can come up with logical methdologies for the prevention of future

outbreaks. That may not be as satisfactory as a cure, but it is

something.

Bob

, <@i...> wrote:

> Bob Flaws

>

> Where does the idea of damp heat evil toxins lying hidden in the

blood

> aspect originate? It is not mentioned in Liu's new book on wen

bing. I

> have read that such toxins enter the blood phase directly via sexual

> transmission. Is this a modern idea or does it have a classical

pedigree?

> Some people are not comfortable with use of wen bing theory to

describe

> herpes, but it appeals to me. Is this a commonly accepted

interpretation

> in modern China or is it your own idea?

>

> Chinese Herbs

>

> voice:

> fax:

>

> " Great spirits have always been violently opposed by mediocre minds "

--

> Albert Einstein

May 21, 2002

, " pemachophel2001 " <

pemachophel2001> wrote:

>

> That being said, although the theory of hidden warm or damp

heat

> evils/toxins lodged in the blood aspect or division helps

explain the

> latency and remittency of a number of viral diseases, it does

not seem

> to lead to any effective therapies for the cure of these

diseases,

Several questions come to mind (and anyone can chime in

here) :

1. Is this idea beginning to be commonly accepted in China?

2. Could this be considered a new development in warm

disease theory?

3. If we do not use this latent heat toxin concept to explain these

bloodborne/sexually transmitted viral diseases, how else do we

understand them in CM terms?

4. If treatment based on these principles is not effective at

completely ridding the pathogen, is there another approach that

is?

5. If treatment is ineffective, then doesn't that mean the

diagnosis is incorrect?

6. What does it mean that treatment is ineffective?

I have seen numerous patients go into longterm remission

using chinese herbal treatment. Sure, the virus remains, but the

disease is basically gone. If heat signs present, I typically use

blood cooling at first with toxin and/or dampheat clearing in the

latent stage plus whatever else presents (qi xu, liver constraint,

etc.). I think the heat clearers weaken the pathogen, while the

body is harmonized and stengthened. Later one can

discontinue the clearers and continue to harmonize, etc. The

pathogen is not destroyed, but can be held at bay. On the other

hand, the disease will recur without reinfection.

It doesn't make sense to me to try and outthrust this pathogen

through the wei level. first, it entered through the lower jiao or

some other route direct into the blood. Second, pathogens that

lodge at this level are typically treated with mostly blood coolers

and care is advised in using acrid herbs (Liu).

All this raises the issue of whether it is valid to make any

equation of virus with evil toxin. It may be that merely by

harmonizing the liver and spleen, watching diet and managing

stress, the virus will be controlled. Personally, I only use the

heat clearers if heat presents. Otherwise, I treat what presents

and that seems to work best.

May 21, 2002

, " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

> I have seen numerous patients go into longterm remission

> using chinese herbal treatment. Sure, the virus remains, but the

> disease is basically gone. If heat signs present, I typically use

> blood cooling at first with toxin and/or dampheat clearing in the

> latent stage plus whatever else presents (qi xu, liver constraint,

> etc.). I think the heat clearers weaken the pathogen, while the

> body is harmonized and stengthened. Later one can

> discontinue the clearers and continue to harmonize, etc. The

> pathogen is not destroyed, but can be held at bay. On the other

> hand, the disease will recur without reinfection.

> It doesn't make sense to me to try and outthrust this pathogen

> through the wei level. first, it entered through the lower jiao

or some other route direct into the blood. Second, pathogens that

> lodge at this level are typically treated with mostly blood

coolers and care is advised in using acrid herbs (Liu).

:

You bring up some excellent points about how to think about managing

viruses. Outthrusting won't work. I would only add that you may want

to add herbs to supplement the wei qi and marrow. In 5-Phases, we

consider the functioning and interaction of the lung (wei qi),

spleen (white blood cells and macrophages), and kidney (marrow)

together to approximate the Western perspective of immune function.

> All this raises the issue of whether it is valid to make any

> equation of virus with evil toxin.

How else can it fit into CM Theory? Otherwise, CM would be blind to

viruses and treat only symptoms.

Jim Ramholz

May 21, 2002

> 5. If treatment is ineffective, then doesn't that mean the

> diagnosis is incorrect?

Logically, I don't see the necessity of this statement. In both

Chinese and Western medicines, we can diagnose many things which we

cannot cure.

> It doesn't make sense to me to try and outthrust this pathogen

> through the wei level.

At this point in time, I would agree with this. It has not seemed to

work in any of the cases in which I tried this approach. Our New

Zealand friend, Haiko Lade (correct name? correct spelling) published

an article saying this approach has worked for him, but I did not find

it very convincing. I think it was published in the Pacific Journal of

Oriental Medicine out of Australia.

I agree with you that, mostly, just treat the presenting pattern(s).

That's what brings the body back into balance and keeps the righteous

qi strong and healthy.

Bob

May 22, 2002

, " pemachophel2001 " <

pemachophel2001> wrote:

> Logically, I don't see the necessity of this statement. In both

> Chinese and Western medicines, we can diagnose many

things which we

> cannot cure.

I just got an email from Guohui Liu. He said that the idea of

hidden or lurking toxin in the blood is a modern idea developed

in regard to certain chronic viral diseases. However, he

considers this development to be a further evolution in wen bing

theory, not an aberration. specifically, he says this concept

decribes a new form of lurking heat. In his book, Liu details the

development of lurking heat theory which has evolved and

changed many times over the centuries.

What is most bothersome to some about this idea is that it is

new and that it depends on certain modern ideas (sexual

transmission, latent viruses, antiviral action of herbs). This has

raised the issue in my mind as to what latency really means.

Does a latent heat condition have signs even when the heat is

latent (i.e. when there are no disease symptoms, do the tongue,

pulse and general sx like sleep, etc. reflect perfect health)?

Because a patient may have plain old dampheat which can be

determined by tongue, pulse and history, but that dampheat

might flare symptomatically. So you might be fine till you go on

that scotch bender. then you switch to brown rice and veggies

and the sx disappear and stay gone till you lapse again. But that

is not considered latency, merely the normal life cycle of

dampheat. Maybe it would easier to accept that dampheat

lodges in the lower jiao and flares when provoked. This does

not require any " new " ideas.

One last observation. Even in untreated herpes, outbreaks

become less severe and frequent as time goes on. In some

cases, they stop completely. Some people never have more

than single outbreak and the first outbreak is generally far more

severe than subsequent ones. Since one would expect

dampheat to accumulate over time, shouldn't the situation just

get worse and worse.

BTW, with 600 members on this list and herpes being present in

25% of american adults, I know there are more experiences and

opinions out there than are being represented by the three of us

who have written on this topic. All of us really want to hear the

diverse thoughts out there. This list canonly grow to its true

potential if more people begin to contribute. If there is a reason

so many of you are silent, please ermail me outside the group to

see what can be done to make posting more inviting.

May 22, 2002

Does a latent heat condition have signs even when the heat is

> latent (i.e. when there are no disease symptoms, do the tongue,

> pulse and general sx like sleep, etc. reflect perfect health)?

While Wiseman and Feng Ye prefer the term " deep-lying, " I believe that

hidden is a better translation of fu2. Deep-lying only tells you

about the depth of the evil qi, not its appearance. The Pinyin

Chinese-English Dictionary gives: 1) bend over, 2) lie prostrate, 3)

subside, go down, 4) hide, 5) hot season, dog days, and 6) admit (as

in admit guilt or defeat). If something is truly hidden, then it does

not present signs or symptoms. Under the meaning hide, the authors of

the above referenced dictionary give examples of " hide by day and come

out at night " and " to lie [hidden] in ambush. " If warm evils lie

hidden in the blood aspect or division, then both meanings, hidden and

deep-lying, are germane. This is another example of Chinese

seminal multivalency which is hard to capture in English. It is also,

in my opinion, another example of why learning this stuff in the

original language makes such a qualitative difference in understanding

and applying these concepts.

Bob

June 9, 2005

Hi Frank,

What kind of herpesinfection is it? Is it genital? Or are it lip sores?

I find ravintsara (Cinnamonum camphora) useful...

Greetz,

Saskia

June 9, 2005

Frank-

Lemon Balm is *the* herb of choice when dealing with herpes. Any

kind. Simplex I & II, chicken pox, zoster, doesn't matter. Take the

tincture, drink the tea, use the eo in lotions, eat the blessed plant

raw, get it in and on the body in any way you can. I have genital

herpes, and Lemon Balm is absolutely my best friend. Diagnosed in

January, I had seemingly-constant outbreaks (followed by shingles)

for about 2 months, then I started taking Lemon Balm consistantly.

It's been 17 weeks since my last outbreak.

You can infuse olive oil with the fresh or dried herb and use that to

make a salve or lotion. Use Melissa eo in those products (Melissa

officinalis is the Latin name for lemon balm). You can also use

Calendula (another antiviral which is fantastic to keep the lymph

moving through the area) and St. Johnswort (for nerve pain) infused

oils added to the blend. Also use Cat's Claw in tea or tincture;

very effective antiviral. Some will also suggest Licorice, which I

adore.

*DO NOT* try to use any essential oil neat on an outbreak!!!!! Even

if you do, you'll only do it once. Burning pain on an area of the

body already experiencing burning pain isn't something most folks are

interested in.

If you look at the tube for Herpecin-L and numerous other cold sore

products, you'll see that lemon balm & /or Melissa are important

ingredients in the formula.

If you want more info, feel free to ask. I'm new to the disease, but

have learned *tons* about it since diagnosis. I feel more than a bit

self-conscious " coming out " about it here, but I'd rather share that

and my personal experience with the natural approach to the disease

than keep such valuable information to myself.

Hope that helps. I can't wait to see what others have to say about

their protocols for coldsores, etc.!

Green Blessings,

Rebecca Jones

Kestrel Crossings

Concord, NH

www.kestrelcrossings.com

, frank staudenraus

<hands2heal4all> wrote:

> Is there any particular EO that should be used Herpes.

> If so, what EO and instructions, Please

>

> Frank

June 10, 2005

Amazing plant, I juice lemon balm, mix it with frozen

pineapple juice concentrate and water, and drink it all

during the growing season. It's also supposed to reverse the

hair going graying process.

Kat

--

Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.6 - Release Date:

6/8/2005

July 2, 2009

my gf (yes, i am a woman) has herpes and i found out last week. she found out in

may 09 from her gyno that she got herpes because a man raped her who had the

infection. the weird thing is she breaks out on her inner thigh while she is on

her period but not her vagina. can u still contract herpes if she didnt break

out if she wasnt on her period?

i got her some coconut oil because i heard it is helpful for herpes. she is

looking to permanently cure the herpes infection because she doesnt want to live

with it anymore. i also heard red marine algae was great for herpes. what are

some good chinese herbs she can take?

July 3, 2009

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 3:52 PM, ask and u might receive <

brownsuga_n_az wrote:

>

> my gf (yes, i am a woman) has herpes and i found out last week. she found

> out in may 09 from her gyno that she got herpes because a man raped her who

> had the infection. the weird thing is she breaks out on her inner thigh

> while she is on her period but not her vagina. can u still contract herpes

> if she didnt break out if she wasnt on her period?

>

The company that sells the drug to prevent an infection from a non-active

partner believes so. I'm not so sure, though. Conventional wisdom says that

while we're often sloughing off some viral material, it is much more

contagious when there is an active lesion/vesicle. So, when you see those,

wait until they've dried up and healed before getting groovy with your gf.

And for anybody keeping score at home, notice that the problem most often

associated with damp heat in the liver channel is aggravated by the period.

Liver stores the blood and is implicated in most problems coincidental with

the female cycle.

i got her some coconut oil because i heard it is helpful for herpes. she is

> looking to permanently cure the herpes infection because she doesnt want to

> live with it anymore. i also heard red marine algae was great for herpes.

> what are some good chinese herbs she can take?

>

Don't know about any cures, but I can say that the older she gets, the less

outbreaks she'll have.

In the meantime, lacking any other information, you might consider grabbing

a bottle of Long Dan Xie Gan Tang (Gentianna Drain the Liver Decoction) and

have her take it a day(s) before the lesions tend to pop out. Might be able

to prevent the montly outbreak.

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

July 3, 2009

And in between that she can take Jia Wei Xiao Yao San.

I gave it to a roommate who had herpes but it was to help him to calm down and

sleep and it helped with his herpes break out to heal faster. It can be used

long term. But just before the break out time make sure to use the Long Gan

Xie Dan Tang it is the best just before and during the break out.

" Tao is precious and not to be passed on, unless the student is sincere and

compassionate towards human suffering "

by: Huang Di Nei Jing Su Wen, chapter 4 Truth from the Golden Chamber

________________________________

Al Stone <al

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Thursday, July 2, 2009 10:26:09 PM

Re: [Chinese Traditional Medicine] herpes

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 3:52 PM, ask and u might receive <

brownsuga_n_ az > wrote: