Guest guest Posted July 13, 2008 Report Share Posted July 13, 2008 Hello there. I have been dealing with some swelling developing in a spot underneath the gumline of my upper jaw (consulting an oral surgeon determined it is a cyst). I have been trying to get in touch with him as he recommended surgery as soon as possible to get rid of it, to avoid needing more extensive dental work later. However I was looking at some acupuncture charts I have and was surprised to find that point PM-28 corresponds exactly to where the cyst is developing. Do you have any suggestions as to what I can do or if acupuncture can help this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2008 Report Share Posted July 13, 2008 Hi Kyle, I've seen some kinds of cysts respond well to Chinese medicine, though that includes the herbs. Uterine and breast cysts do respond favorably, but I'm not sure about the cause or character of your situation. The fact that the cyst occurs on an acupuncture point is interesting, if there are other symptoms or problems along the channel in question, that can help to make a good case for a channel pathology. Unfortunately, I am unfamiliar with the point name " PM-28 " . Sounds like an " extra point " to me, not a point on a discrete channel, but used because it works for one thing or another. As a rule, the gums are ruled by the Stomach and Large Intestine channels. The upper jaw is more about the Large Intestine, but Chinese medicine recognizes the close relationship between the Stomach and Large Intestine. They're really just two ends of the same tube, if you think about it. (That's *hand and foot yang ming* for those of you keeping score at home.) If you have time to treat this cyst, then acupuncture and/or herbs makes sense. If there is any reason to address this issue more quickly, then your surgeon is probably worth listening to. You might consider asking your surgeon what would happen if you ignored the problem for a month. If it doesn't cause any problems to wait, you might just have a good experience with acupuncture. -al. On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 2:15 AM, Kyle <mikazo_2000 wrote: > Hello there. I have been dealing with some swelling developing in a > spot underneath the gumline of my upper jaw (consulting an oral > surgeon determined it is a cyst). I have been trying to get in touch > with him as he recommended surgery as soon as possible to get rid of > it, to avoid needing more extensive dental work later. > > However I was looking at some acupuncture charts I have and was > surprised to find that point PM-28 corresponds exactly to where the > cyst is developing. Do you have any suggestions as to what I can do > or if acupuncture can help this? > -- , DAOM Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 14, 2008 Report Share Posted July 14, 2008 Hi Al - PM I think stands for Posterior Meridian (given that the charts in particular were showing the anterior and posterior meridians). The point I am thinking of in particular is located on the upper gumline between the right central and lateral incisors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2008 Report Share Posted July 15, 2008 Chinese Traditional Medicine , " Kyle " <mikazo_2000 wrote: > > Hi Al - > > PM I think stands for Posterior Meridian (given that the charts in > particular were showing the anterior and posterior meridians). The > point I am thinking of in particular is located on the upper gumline > between the right central and lateral incisors. There is no `posterior' meridian, and if it's on your face it wouldn't be posterior anyway. Could be SI 18, on the Small Intestine meridian, which is used to treat local jaw problems. sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2008 Report Share Posted July 15, 2008 PM is probably the DU Mai or " Governing Channel " . There is a point, DU 28 that is in the upper gums on the midline. So that makes sense. Still not sure if it is truly related to any channel function, though. Is this cyst associated with any back pain? What about headaches? On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 8:18 AM, qiuser <qiuser wrote: > Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40>, > " Kyle " <mikazo_2000 wrote: > > > > Hi Al - > > > > PM I think stands for Posterior Meridian (given that the charts in > > particular were showing the anterior and posterior meridians). The > > point I am thinking of in particular is located on the upper gumline > > between the right central and lateral incisors. > > There is no `posterior' meridian, and if it's on your face it wouldn't > be posterior anyway. Could be SI 18, on the Small Intestine meridian, > which is used to treat local jaw problems. > > sue > -- , DAOM Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2008 Report Share Posted July 15, 2008 Hi All, I have found that rinsing/swishing with Goldenseal 2 to 3 times a day for a couple of weeks really works well on problems withs the gum line. If there is an abscess it will generally cause it to come to the surface, same thing with a cyst. Generally it seems to take about a week of swishing to get the " problem " to come to the surface where it can ulcerate/ " pop " . From here it tends to drain for a couple of days, and then heals up with no further recurrence. It is also great for stubborn cavities. Al talked about the concept that in TCM generally the gums are thought of as being related to the Stomach and the Large Intestine. In my own personal experience though, I have not found these two organs to be major players energetically. It seems to me that the two meridians that light up most are San Jiao, and Heart for tooth and gum problems. I am wondering if anyone else has experienced this. I am also wondering Kyle if you have any history of heart problems, such as Palpitations, arrhythmia, tachycardia, murmur, etc. It seems to me that for the upper gums the majority of the energetic congestion happens at the superior portion of the heart, near where the vena cava and the aortic arch connect to the heart, and then bi-laterally from here roughly about R2 - R3 (at the most R4). I believe I remember an article a few years back that talked about how the plaque in our mouths is similar to the plaque in our hearts. Does anyone else remember this story? Sincerely, L.Ac. The Database Chinese Medicine www.cm-dbcart.com Chinese Traditional Medicine , " Kyle " <mikazo_2000 wrote: > > Hello there. I have been dealing with some swelling developing in a > spot underneath the gumline of my upper jaw (consulting an oral > surgeon determined it is a cyst). I have been trying to get in touch > with him as he recommended surgery as soon as possible to get rid of > it, to avoid needing more extensive dental work later. > > However I was looking at some acupuncture charts I have and was > surprised to find that point PM-28 corresponds exactly to where the > cyst is developing. Do you have any suggestions as to what I can do > or if acupuncture can help this? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2008 Report Share Posted July 15, 2008 On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 12:08 PM, jonk2012 <jonk2012 wrote: > Al talked about the concept that in TCM generally the gums are thought > of as being related to the Stomach and the Large Intestine. In my own > personal experience though, I have not found these two organs to be > major players energetically. > Stomach fire can and often does give rise to bleeding gums. The herb ge gen (enters Stomach channel) can guide the formula xiao yao san to the jaw to address TMJ. Those are the two situations that I've run into that support this theory. It seems to me that the two meridians > that light up most are San Jiao, and Heart for tooth and gum problems. > I am wondering if anyone else has experienced this. > Can you define " light up " ? Something tells me that you're more focused on channel pathologies while I'm more focused on zang-fu diagnosis. -- , DAOM Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2008 Report Share Posted July 16, 2008 Hi Al, In a sense you are right. It is not zang fu diagnosis that I am talking about, and it does seem like a channel pathology. So, my definition is of " light up " means that I can feel the HT & SJ meridians (in my own body) as being more activated then the Stomach or Large Intestine meridians. Generally the sensation of the San Jiao meridian gets really strong at SJ 17, SJ 16, SI 17, and then runs down the shoulders to SJ 14, all the way down the channel. This feeling is a dull pulsing and a sensation of draining. The Heart involvement is less channel centered and feels more oriented around the organ itself. I just thought I would throw out the question to see if anyone else had ever felt this. I am all for Zang Fu diagnosis, I use it all the time, but in the experimental ground that is my own body, I can come to better understandings of why things work, and why things don't work (by experimenting on myself ) Sincerely, L.Ac. The Database Chinese Medicine www.cm-dbcart.com > Can you define " light up " ? > > Something tells me that you're more focused on channel pathologies while I'm > more focused on zang-fu diagnosis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2008 Report Share Posted July 16, 2008 On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 3:13 PM, jonk2012 <jonk2012 wrote: > Hi Al, > > In a sense you are right. It is not zang fu diagnosis that I am > talking about, and it does seem like a channel pathology. So, my > definition is of " light up " means that I can feel the HT & SJ > meridians (in my own body) as being more activated then the Stomach or > Large Intestine meridians. > Well, mouth sores are considered a Heart or Spleen thing so, perhaps you're barking up an adjacent tree. I pay attention to my body too. For the longest time, I couldn't figure out what this " running piglet syndrome " was even though my own mentors had attempted to explain it many times. I finally figured out that it is like a more intense version of " butterflies in your stomach " as we'd say in English. Sometimes I'll get a nervous situation where I start to burp, but there isn't much air coming out, just what I have called in the past a " seepage " . I always recognized this was a Liver/Stomach issue but it wasn't until I saw the ingredients of the formula for Running Piglet that I realized what it was, butterflies plus seepage. > Generally the sensation of the San Jiao > meridian gets really strong at SJ 17, SJ 16, SI 17, and then runs down > the shoulders to SJ 14, all the way down the channel. This feeling is > a dull pulsing and a sensation of draining. > > The Heart involvement is less channel centered and feels more oriented > around the organ itself. > Is that the location where you place your hand during the national anthem? or is that on the mid line? There are many differences in how we describe organ locations. Could be that you are in fact feeling the Stomach if you're talking about like Ren 14 or so. I just thought I would throw out the question to see if anyone else > had ever felt this. I am all for Zang Fu diagnosis, I use it all the > time, but in the experimental ground that is my own body, I can come > to better understandings of why things work, and why things don't work > (by experimenting on myself ) > Me too, definitely. -- , DAOM Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2008 Report Share Posted July 17, 2008 Hi! One question? Do you have lumbar pain? That point can treat lumbar pain. And if you have lumbar pain it may show up on the point. Treat the lumbar and it may help the cyst. regards Peter Chinese Traditional Medicine , " Kyle " <mikazo_2000 wrote: > > Hello there. I have been dealing with some swelling developing in a > spot underneath the gumline of my upper jaw (consulting an oral > surgeon determined it is a cyst). I have been trying to get in touch > with him as he recommended surgery as soon as possible to get rid of > it, to avoid needing more extensive dental work later. > > However I was looking at some acupuncture charts I have and was > surprised to find that point PM-28 corresponds exactly to where the > cyst is developing. Do you have any suggestions as to what I can do > or if acupuncture can help this? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 There have been some mild headaches to go with this, and drowsiness. Chinese Traditional Medicine , " Al Stone " <al wrote: > > PM is probably the DU Mai or " Governing Channel " . There is a point, DU 28 > that is in the upper gums on the midline. So that makes sense. Still not > sure if it is truly related to any channel function, though. > > Is this cyst associated with any back pain? What about headaches? > > On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 8:18 AM, qiuser <qiuser wrote: > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40>, > > " Kyle " <mikazo_2000@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Al - > > > > > > PM I think stands for Posterior Meridian (given that the charts in > > > particular were showing the anterior and posterior meridians). The > > > point I am thinking of in particular is located on the upper gumline > > > between the right central and lateral incisors. > > > > There is no `posterior' meridian, and if it's on your face it wouldn't > > be posterior anyway. Could be SI 18, on the Small Intestine meridian, > > which is used to treat local jaw problems. > > > > sue > > > > > -- > , DAOM > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 Hi there. No overt heart problems, however have had anxiety in the past which manifested in symptoms easily confused with heart conditions. That's not so much of a big deal right now though. I'm 24 years old and 135 lbs, and not prone to heart issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 9:19 AM, Kyle <mikazo_2000 wrote: > I'm 24 years old and 135 lbs, and not prone to heart issues. > A few things: 1. PM or Posterior Meridian or Du Mai or Governing Vessel: It does wrap over the top of the head to terminate in the mouth. So, this could be considered a channel problem. Kind of seems that way at this point. 2. A cyst (bulging, probably red and painful) is more likely an excessive item due to the fact that it hasn't been going on for ever, the patient is youngish, and it is sticking out (as opposed to a concave deficient type wound of some sort.) 3. Mild headaches may be related as the Du Mai has a branch that passes through the head. 4. Anxiety may not be considered a heart condition in Western medicine, but is, in Chinese medicine. So, all those in favor of clearing heat toxin from the Du Mai say " Du it! " . I don't actually recall Kyle mentioning this cyst being hot, inflamed, painful, but that's my working assumption at this point. Points that are used to harmonize the Du Mai include SI 3 with UB 62. Though, I'd consider palpating the channel trajectory, looking for sensitive spots, likely in the lower back. Might consider doing the same thing on the Ren Mai (Anterior Meridian or Governing Vessel) and needle accordingly. Lacking needles, acupressure is good too. On the regular channels, there's a point that is used to clear excess heat (as I perceive this cyst to be). Its toward the end of the channels (hands or feet). The point to clear heat from the Stomach channel for instance is St. 44. I don't know that the Du Mai has an equivalent. -- , DAOM Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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