Guest guest Posted June 2, 2008 Report Share Posted June 2, 2008 --- Domingo <dpichardo3 wrote: > [...] The disturbing thing is that if there was one person that > was up to date on alternative therapies and healthy life style > that would have been she! Let me continue this thought. I'm a bit afraid you think I'm selfish in the shadow of this sad event. I really don't want to say anything inappropriate (tell me if I do). But you must understand, there was this bright lady, well educated herself in the science of CM, most probable quite a few professional CM friends around her. And dies in recently diagnosed late-stage lung and pancreas cancer. For a layman like me, it's hard put together. I'm totally confident on the validity of CM's approach. And I'd like to believe when I or anybody in my family ever have any serious disease, CM will help. Al, you must know what has happened. Of course, I'm not interested in the private details, but does Judy's case teaches any lesson to us? Tamas Kenez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2008 Report Share Posted June 2, 2008 Hi there. What I would like to say in response to the valid question put forth by Tamas revolves around two facts: 1. Western MDs die all the time of various diseases. They are as afflicted as the rest of the population. And while we may not think that they are at the top of the _health_ game, certainly they do have effective medicines, for all that they might die of those diseases. 2. Judy was chronically ill, and had she not dealt with her given condition in the intelligent way that she did, she might have succumbed much earlier and with much less clarity of spirit. The last point I will make generally is that there have been many western MDs who, having taken trips to rural China, have been deeply impressed by the robust health of the population found there. Hugo yakenez <knz Chinese Traditional Medicine Monday, 2 June, 2008 5:43:47 PM [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Victoria's case --- Domingo <dpichardo3@ ...> wrote: > [...] The disturbing thing is that if there was one person that > was up to date on alternative therapies and healthy life style > that would have been she! Let me continue this thought. I'm a bit afraid you think I'm selfish in the shadow of this sad event. I really don't want to say anything inappropriate (tell me if I do). But you must understand, there was this bright lady, well educated herself in the science of CM, most probable quite a few professional CM friends around her. And dies in recently diagnosed late-stage lung and pancreas cancer. For a layman like me, it's hard put together. I'm totally confident on the validity of CM's approach. And I'd like to believe when I or anybody in my family ever have any serious disease, CM will help. Al, you must know what has happened. Of course, I'm not interested in the private details, but does Judy's case teaches any lesson to us? Tamas Kenez ________ Sent from Mail. A Smarter Email http://uk.docs./nowyoucan.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2008 Report Share Posted June 3, 2008 On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 2:43 PM, yakenez <knz wrote: > --- Domingo <dpichardo3 wrote: > > [...] The disturbing thing is that if there was one person that > > was up to date on alternative therapies and healthy life style > > that would have been she! > > Let me continue this thought. I'm a bit afraid you think I'm selfish > in the shadow of this sad event. I really don't want to say anything > inappropriate (tell me if I do). > Honestly, I wanted to pick up on Domingo's post too. So, thanks for bringing this up... > > > But you must understand, there was this bright lady, well educated > herself in the science of CM, most probable quite a few professional > CM friends around her. And dies in recently diagnosed late-stage lung > and pancreas cancer. For a layman like me, it's hard put together. > > I'm totally confident on the validity of CM's approach. And I'd like > to believe when I or anybody in my family ever have any serious > disease, CM will help. > But of course, yin's soft, patient approach ultimately does overcome yang. Mountains crumble when enough rain falls, etc... and it is a fact that no matter how healthy or medically educated you are, you, me, and everybody reading this will end up six feet under. So we shouldn't expect Chinese medicine to create immortals. From what I understand, the Taoists of the middle ages were kind of into that whole immortality thing. Far as I can tell, they weren't very successful. I personally like that line from Jesus Christ Superstar " To conquer death you only have to die. " I just saw Hugo's post come through, he's pretty much on the same page as me on this one. I myself have my own health problems, and while you could say that this is a failing of Chinese medicine, the reality may be that it could be much worse if I weren't addressing them... Al, you must know what has happened. Of course, I'm not interested in > the private details, but does Judy's case teaches any lesson to us? > Well, that's a very good question. I think that I personally had the opportunity for some clinical insight that is kind of unique to my position of treating people with a minimum of physical contact. I did have her on a formula a few months ago for a transitory situation that is commonly addressed well with herbs. It was an acute situation and she responded well to the herbs, but then strange symptoms kept popping up. Normally, I ask for a digital image of a tongue and face. I even asked for these things from her, but her camera was broken or she couldn't find the cable to import the images into her computer, something like that. That kind of concerned me because I've been treating people over the internet or phone calls for many years and when I can't see their face or tongue, it is exceedingly hard to get a context for her diagnosis. I've been using that word " context " lately because I believe that conveys the idea of syndrome differentiation very well. For instance, a headache that arrives before one's period is a very different context from a headache that's part of a hangover, or trauma from an anvil falling out of a second story apartment window. People's natural expressions on their face is very telling too. So, I like to see what they're putting on to their face, it provides me much insight into their general constitution and some of the emotional context of their lives. So, that information was not provided to me. I don't know that I would have done anything differently but that alone was something of a red light to me. In fact, I literally told her that she would probably get better benefits if she could locate a TCM practitioner to see in person close to home. Apparently where she was in rural Virginia, she was an hour from the nearest medium sized town, and much further to any city that might have a Chinese population or TCM practitioner. And this is where the red light flashed even brighter. I thought if I could see her face, I would be able to at least know if I should push her to visit an MD locally. I honestly didn't feel like her symptoms were lining up well and had a clear sense of something wrong, well beyond the disharmony I was treating. Anyway, I didn't hear from her for a few weeks, after which I heard from her husband regarding her diagnosis. He didn't give me the prognosis, but I pretty well figured that her time was up, which it proved to be... I think that the take-away lesson here isn't so much about her lifestyle or health, but as a practitioner when she was unable to produce an image for me, I felt that there was a reason for it. Sometimes people (okay, *women*) are uncomfortable telling me their weight if they perceive it as wrong or unattractive, or whatever. Judy was overweight, and wouldn't even give me an exact number beyond " more than " the round number I threw out there. So there was some hiding of information there and with the lack of a picture of her, and strange symptoms arising, I felt the need to get her to someone locally who *could* see her in person. Obviously the person she ended up seeing was an oncologist (cancer doctor). Probably the message to patients would be that if you feel the need to hide information, that's probably where the doctor needs to go in their inquiry. I guess Judy just felt that she already knew she was overweight. But perhaps she knew other things, but wasn't so crazy about " going there " . We all live by our decisions and we all die. When is too young? How old is too old? These are not questions that are easy to answer. Judy kept this list going strong for years, and who knows how many lives or health issues were impacted by the conversations here? So, while I can point to some issues in her and my medical encounter, I do not necessarily assume that anything wrong happened here. We all die, and we all get to chose our lifestyles. Who knows why she chose to hide her appearance from me, was it only her weight ? All I know is that practitioners need to be sensitive to these things. While our response should be appropriate to the situation, noticing these red flags or lights blinking in our hearts can certainly help us to refer out when necessary more quickly to the benefit of the patient. -al. -- , DAOM Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2008 Report Share Posted June 3, 2008 " Medical system is leading cause of death and injury in US " http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/2003/10/29/medical_system_is_leading_cause_\ of_death_and_injury_in_us.htm http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/11856.php http://www.cancure.org/medical_errors.htm http://www.angelfire.com/az/sthurston/Leading_Cause_of_Death_in_the_US.html That takes care of MD's health wisdom as example in argument #1 As far as # 2, I never heard Victoria say anything about having cancer... I think she mentioned other issues like IBS but not pancreatic cancer which I don't think qualifies as a chronic condition! The question is: How intuitive are we about our own body's imbalances? What about Dr. Vinod's observation regarding the link between blood stasis and cancer? Does anybody know if Victoria Practiced Tai-chi or any form of Qigong? Hugo Ramiro wrote: > > Hi there. What I would like to say in response to the valid question > put forth by Tamas revolves around two facts: > 1. Western MDs die all the time of various diseases. They are as > afflicted as the rest of the population. And while we may not think > that they are at the top of the _health_ game, certainly they do have > effective medicines, for all that they might die of those diseases. > 2. Judy was chronically ill, and had she not dealt with her given > condition in the intelligent way that she did, she might have > succumbed much earlier and with much less clarity of spirit. > > The last point I will make generally is that there have been many > western MDs who, having taken trips to rural China, have been deeply > impressed by the robust health of the population found there. > > Hugo > > > yakenez <knz <knz%40knzaudio.com>> > Chinese Traditional Medicine > <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40> > Monday, 2 June, 2008 5:43:47 PM > [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Victoria's case > > --- Domingo <dpichardo3@ ...> wrote: > > [...] The disturbing thing is that if there was one person that > > was up to date on alternative therapies and healthy life style > > that would have been she! > > Let me continue this thought. I'm a bit afraid you think I'm selfish > in the shadow of this sad event. I really don't want to say anything > inappropriate (tell me if I do). > > But you must understand, there was this bright lady, well educated > herself in the science of CM, most probable quite a few professional > CM friends around her. And dies in recently diagnosed late-stage lung > and pancreas cancer. For a layman like me, it's hard put together. > > I'm totally confident on the validity of CM's approach. And I'd like > to believe when I or anybody in my family ever have any serious > disease, CM will help. > > Al, you must know what has happened. Of course, I'm not interested in > the private details, but does Judy's case teaches any lesson to us? > > Tamas Kenez > > ________ > Sent from Mail. > A Smarter Email http://uk.docs./nowyoucan.html > <http://uk.docs./nowyoucan.html> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2008 Report Share Posted June 3, 2008 Chinese Traditional Medicine , " Al Stone " <al wrote: > > On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 2:43 PM, yakenez <knz wrote: > > > --- Domingo <dpichardo3@> wrote: > > > [...] The disturbing thing is that if there was one person that > > > was up to date on alternative therapies and healthy life style > > > that would have been she! > > > > Let me continue this thought. I'm a bit afraid you think I'm selfish > > in the shadow of this sad event. I really don't want to say anything > > inappropriate (tell me if I do). > > > > Gentlemen, We all grieve over this loss. However, I firmly agree that we all need to work together. The West, East, North, & South all medicines (CAM) All have treatments that work and some do not. So let's come together share ideas and use the things that work realizing that not everything works for everyone. We're all different! FYI, go to www.grouppekurosawa.com for some different ideas on curing this dreaded disaese. Very very interesting discussions and protocols. Thanks! Blessings! Dale Selgrath, MS > > > > > > Honestly, I wanted to pick up on Domingo's post too. So, thanks for bringing > this up... > > > > > > > But you must understand, there was this bright lady, well educated > > herself in the science of CM, most probable quite a few professional > > CM friends around her. And dies in recently diagnosed late-stage lung > > and pancreas cancer. For a layman like me, it's hard put together. > > > > I'm totally confident on the validity of CM's approach. And I'd like > > to believe when I or anybody in my family ever have any serious > > disease, CM will help. > > > > > > > > But of course, yin's soft, patient approach ultimately does overcome yang. > Mountains crumble when enough rain falls, etc... and it is a fact that no > matter how healthy or medically educated you are, you, me, and everybody > reading this will end up six feet under. So we shouldn't expect Chinese > medicine to create immortals. > > From what I understand, the Taoists of the middle ages were kind of into > that whole immortality thing. Far as I can tell, they weren't very > successful. I personally like that line from Jesus Christ Superstar " To > conquer death you only have to die. " > > I just saw Hugo's post come through, he's pretty much on the same page as me > on this one. I myself have my own health problems, and while you could say > that this is a failing of Chinese medicine, the reality may be that it could > be much worse if I weren't addressing them... > > Al, you must know what has happened. Of course, I'm not interested in > > the private details, but does Judy's case teaches any lesson to us? > > > > > > > Well, that's a very good question. I think that I personally had the > opportunity for some clinical insight that is kind of unique to my position > of treating people with a minimum of physical contact. I did have her on a > formula a few months ago for a transitory situation that is commonly > addressed well with herbs. It was an acute situation and she responded well > to the herbs, but then strange symptoms kept popping up. > > Normally, I ask for a digital image of a tongue and face. I even asked for > these things from her, but her camera was broken or she couldn't find the > cable to import the images into her computer, something like that. That kind > of concerned me because I've been treating people over the internet or phone > calls for many years and when I can't see their face or tongue, it is > exceedingly hard to get a context for her diagnosis. > > I've been using that word " context " lately because I believe that conveys > the idea of syndrome differentiation very well. For instance, a headache > that arrives before one's period is a very different context from a headache > that's part of a hangover, or trauma from an anvil falling out of a second > story apartment window. > > People's natural expressions on their face is very telling too. So, I like > to see what they're putting on to their face, it provides me much insight > into their general constitution and some of the emotional context of their > lives. So, that information was not provided to me. I don't know that I > would have done anything differently but that alone was something of a red > light to me. In fact, I literally told her that she would probably get > better benefits if she could locate a TCM practitioner to see in person > close to home. Apparently where she was in rural Virginia, she was an hour > from the nearest medium sized town, and much further to any city that might > have a Chinese population or TCM practitioner. > > And this is where the red light flashed even brighter. I thought if I could > see her face, I would be able to at least know if I should push her to visit > an MD locally. I honestly didn't feel like her symptoms were lining up well > and had a clear sense of something wrong, well beyond the disharmony I was > treating. > > Anyway, I didn't hear from her for a few weeks, after which I heard from her > husband regarding her diagnosis. He didn't give me the prognosis, but I > pretty well figured that her time was up, which it proved to be... > > I think that the take-away lesson here isn't so much about her lifestyle or > health, but as a practitioner when she was unable to produce an image for > me, I felt that there was a reason for it. Sometimes people (okay, *women*) > are uncomfortable telling me their weight if they perceive it as wrong or > unattractive, or whatever. Judy was overweight, and wouldn't even give me an > exact number beyond " more than " the round number I threw out there. > > So there was some hiding of information there and with the lack of a picture > of her, and strange symptoms arising, I felt the need to get her to someone > locally who *could* see her in person. Obviously the person she ended up > seeing was an oncologist (cancer doctor). > > Probably the message to patients would be that if you feel the need to hide > information, that's probably where the doctor needs to go in their inquiry. > I guess Judy just felt that she already knew she was overweight. But perhaps > she knew other things, but wasn't so crazy about " going there " . > > We all live by our decisions and we all die. When is too young? How old is > too old? These are not questions that are easy to answer. Judy kept this > list going strong for years, and who knows how many lives or health issues > were impacted by the conversations here? > > So, while I can point to some issues in her and my medical encounter, I do > not necessarily assume that anything wrong happened here. We all die, and we > all get to chose our lifestyles. Who knows why she chose to hide her > appearance from me, was it only her weight ? All I know is that > practitioners need to be sensitive to these things. While our response > should be appropriate to the situation, noticing these red flags or lights > blinking in our hearts can certainly help us to refer out when necessary > more quickly to the benefit of the patient. > > -al. > > -- > , DAOM > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2008 Report Share Posted June 3, 2008 Hi Domingo, thanks for that link. As for point number 2, I don't feel comfortable dissecting Judy's struggles. Suffice it to say that she has described her health struggles on the forum, and they were not minor. Cancer, as we should understand, does not come from nothing. A long-standing health issue can provide the foundation for cancer. Thanks, Hugo Domingo <dpichardo3 Chinese Traditional Medicine Monday, 2 June, 2008 8:47:31 PM Re: [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Victoria's case " Medical system is leading cause of death and injury in US " http://www.newmedia explorer. org/sepp/ 2003/10/29/ medical_system_ is_leading_ cause_of_ death_and_ injury_in_ us.htm http://www.medicaln ewstoday. com/articles/ 11856.php http://www.cancure. org/medical_ errors.htm http://www.angelfir e.com/az/ sthurston/ Leading_Cause_ of_Death_ in_the_US. html That takes care of MD's health wisdom as example in argument #1 As far as # 2, I never heard Victoria say anything about having cancer... I think she mentioned other issues like IBS but not pancreatic cancer which I don't think qualifies as a chronic condition! The question is: How intuitive are we about our own body's imbalances? What about Dr. Vinod's observation regarding the link between blood stasis and cancer? Does anybody know if Victoria Practiced Tai-chi or any form of Qigong? Hugo Ramiro wrote: > > Hi there. What I would like to say in response to the valid question > put forth by Tamas revolves around two facts: > 1. Western MDs die all the time of various diseases. They are as > afflicted as the rest of the population. And while we may not think > that they are at the top of the _health_ game, certainly they do have > effective medicines, for all that they might die of those diseases. > 2. Judy was chronically ill, and had she not dealt with her given > condition in the intelligent way that she did, she might have > succumbed much earlier and with much less clarity of spirit. > > The last point I will make generally is that there have been many > western MDs who, having taken trips to rural China, have been deeply > impressed by the robust health of the population found there. > > Hugo > > > yakenez <knz (AT) knzaudio (DOT) com <knz% 40knzaudio. com>> > Chinese Traditional Medicine > <ChineseHeal ing%40 s.com> > Monday, 2 June, 2008 5:43:47 PM > [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Victoria's case > > --- Domingo <dpichardo3@ ...> wrote: > > [...] The disturbing thing is that if there was one person that > > was up to date on alternative therapies and healthy life style > > that would have been she! > > Let me continue this thought. I'm a bit afraid you think I'm selfish > in the shadow of this sad event. I really don't want to say anything > inappropriate (tell me if I do). > > But you must understand, there was this bright lady, well educated > herself in the science of CM, most probable quite a few professional > CM friends around her. And dies in recently diagnosed late-stage lung > and pancreas cancer. For a layman like me, it's hard put together. > > I'm totally confident on the validity of CM's approach. And I'd like > to believe when I or anybody in my family ever have any serious > disease, CM will help. > > Al, you must know what has happened. Of course, I'm not interested in > the private details, but does Judy's case teaches any lesson to us? > > Tamas Kenez > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > Sent from Mail. > A Smarter Email http://uk.docs. / nowyoucan. html > <http://uk.docs. / nowyoucan. html> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2008 Report Share Posted June 6, 2008 hi all dear has any pronlem about juddy(victoria)?what happen her? please clear me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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