General Question

[Guest guest]

Hi. I have not read every single post on this forum

over the years, so if someone has already asked this, I am sorry to

bother you. Heck, maybe I already asked it ages ago! I want to

reprise the subject:

 

Inasmuch as TCM techniques and diagnoses were invented and refined

quite a long time ago, and on Chinese people, is it possible that

nowadays there are conditions of toxicity and deficiency (together) so

severe, (western people) that TCM doctors would be at a loss to figure

it all out? I know several practitioners of TCM and not one of them,

not even the 70-year-oldsters from China, who know no English, uses

only TCM techniques any more. For one example, they all have a blood

pressure device. Anything you might have to say on this topic would

be appreciated. Fortunately for me, my health challenges over the

years were almost instantly figured out & dealt with, but I know of

people for whom this was not so.

[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine , " Mrs. Barley "

<chosenbarley wrote:

 

> Inasmuch as TCM techniques and diagnoses were invented and refined

> quite a long time ago, and on Chinese people, is it possible that

> nowadays there are conditions of toxicity and deficiency (together) so

> severe, (western people) that TCM doctors would be at a loss to figure

> it all out?

 

I'll never say never, but when you consider how TCM is practiced, I'd

be hard pressed to say that there's anything new presenting in the

clinic. The reason for this is that patients still come in with a

finite number of possible complaints or symptoms which are how we put

a patient on to a therapeutic map. Trying to treat something that

didn't exist a thousand years ago, or ANY western differentiation is

not something that a TCM person does (provided they're focused on TCM,

some people integrate however they choose to integrate things.)

 

There are a few exceptions such as diabetes, hepititis. But those are

still further differentiated with TCM anyway.

 

For instance, I have three patients who are being treated for

damp-heat. One has AIDS (a " new " disease), one has Cushing's syndrome,

and one has chronic loose-stools. They're still all just damp-heat,

though admitidly their treatments require unique formulas. They all

present as damp-heat, though with different symtpoms which we treat

with formula modifications.

 

I'm reminded of something really silly that I heard recently. A

patient suggested to me that TCM had nothing for post-traumatic stress

disorder. How could TCM have anything for a disease that has only

existed since Viet Nam?

 

Apparently he didn't consider that bad, scary, violent things happened

to the Chinese too. Shoot, they invented gun powder (and

firecrackers...)! So, the fact that we have a new-fangled name for

" anxiety " or whatever doesn't make it a new problem that has never

been dealt with in the past.

 

Now as for etiologies or cause... you may believe that environmental

toxicity is new because it is a result of technology, nuclear power,

etc... however there is a long history of noticing environmental

toxicities in TCM too. In fact, there's this one problem called

" laquor disease " (if memory serves) that came about after exposure to

a special varnish they were using in those days. So, toxicity in our

work or living environment isn't new either.

 

Of course, knowing what the noxious element is can assist you in

removing it from your environment such as mold, or Agent Orange, or

buried toxic waste. The Chinese may not have recognized these issues,

though I'm sure that they were more aware of their relationship with

the natural environment than we are. Maybe.

 

I know several practitioners of TCM and not one of them,

> not even the 70-year-oldsters from China, who know no English, uses

> only TCM techniques any more. For one example, they all have a blood

> pressure device.

 

In China, they're all integrated practitioners. Outside of China

(don't ask me about other Asian countries) we're often taught only

TCM. In California we're required to study both. So, checking BP is

just good for public health. The goal of any practitioner is to save

lives, heal suffering, etc... not be true to some theorhetical idea of

what TCM is. Most TCM folks in China are also MDs.

 

-al.

[Guest guest]

On Apr 25, 2008, at 13:55, Mrs. Barley wrote:

 

> For one example, they all have a blood

> pressure device.

 

The doctor of Chinese medicine that I work with has a stethoscope and

a sphyg (for blood pressure) in his office. He uses it to reassure

first-time patients' expectations.

 

Ariel

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine , " Al Stone " <al wrote:

 

> I'm reminded of something really silly that I heard recently. A

> patient suggested to me that TCM had nothing for post-traumatic stress

> disorder. How could TCM have anything for a disease that has only

> existed since Viet Nam?

 

That is rather silly. In WW2 it was called `battle fatigue'; in WW1,

they called it `shell-shock'. It wasn't invented with the Viet Nam

coflict. I'm sure a similar condition has been around as long as

there's been wars.

 

sue

[Guest guest]

---

> -al.

>

 

Nice, interesting, detailed reply. What I was wondering is: do TCM

doctors not see, today, symptoms in patients much younger than they

would have seen 500 - 1000 years ago in China? I am thinking of the

apparently countless numbers of children with " depression " and

" anxiety " . I myself must know at least several. In TCM, aren't

styles of treatment age-specific? Do you know if large numbers of

younger folk in China suffered from these mental problems, too?

 

Funny statement, though: checking BP is " just good for public

health " . Well, I would suggest that checking cholesterol levels,

liver function, hormone levels and so on & so forth would be equally

good for public health, but I do not see TCM doctors doing this right

off the bat regardless of your constellation of symptoms. I had a TCM

doctor check my b.p. I suppose because of my age (50's)but I think

hormone level checking would have been even more appropriate for a

menopausal woman, wouldn't you? At what point do you decide you are

going to be TCM and that's it and not slowly slide into a hybrid style

of medicine. Not that there is anything wrong with that. It is just

that, nowadays, when one goes to a TCM dr. one is not sure what to

expect anymore.

 

I took my young son to a TCM dr. 14 years ago (straight out of China,

not much English) because I thought he was a bit thin in spite of a

good appetite, but she asked if he was vaccinated! (I lied and said he

was.) Anyway, she looked at a western chart and said he was within

the normal range and said there was nothing wrong with him after an

examination, but still gave him some black tonic pills. By the way, I

just love that young doctor, she has a swell personality & is kind.

 

I cannot imagine how in this day and age anyone studying TCM could not

find himself automatically trying to translate groups of symptoms into

western terms. Thank you for your lengthy reply to my first question!

[Guest guest]

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 8:33 PM, Mrs. Barley <chosenbarley wrote:

 

> ---

> > -al.

> >

>

> Nice, interesting, detailed reply. What I was wondering is: do TCM

> doctors not see, today, symptoms in patients much younger than they

> would have seen 500 - 1000 years ago in China? I am thinking of the

> apparently countless numbers of children with " depression " and

> " anxiety " . I myself must know at least several. In TCM, aren't

> styles of treatment age-specific? Do you know if large numbers of

> younger folk in China suffered from these mental problems, too?

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

TCM has some treatments that are unique to children, yes. But there are

certain presentations where you could use them in adults too, and visa

versa.

 

I kind of doubt that the Chinese saw the same things in the same

proportions. I'm sure there were frightened anxious or depressed children.

but more of them had their days full of planting seeds and pulling weeds

rather than the constant stimulation of make-believe threats (mass media

entertainment) we have in modern culture. This is really a question for a

social anthropologist, I don't really have any basis upon which I can answer

your question, but my own observations.

 

I just think that the modern world provides a unique set of circumstances

that children in the past may not have had to deal with. Not that it is all

better now, perhaps (in the USA) we have more ample food supplies, but we

also have scary things on TV constantly flashing before our eyes. Six of

one, half dozen of the other.

 

 

 

Funny statement, though: checking BP is " just good for public

> health " . Well, I would suggest that checking cholesterol levels,

> liver function, hormone levels and so on & so forth would be equally

> good for public health, but I do not see TCM doctors doing this right

> off the bat regardless of your constellation of symptoms. I had a TCM

> doctor check my b.p. I suppose because of my age (50's)but I think

> hormone level checking would have been even more appropriate for a

> menopausal woman, wouldn't you? At what point do you decide you are

> going to be TCM and that's it and not slowly slide into a hybrid style

> of medicine. Not that there is anything wrong with that. It is just

> that, nowadays, when one goes to a TCM dr. one is not sure what to

> expect anymore.

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Right. It is true that our " standard of care " is not very well-defined in

terms of how Western we should go. This is actually a subject of some debate

in my own professional circle. There are those who want to morph TCM into

Western medicine because they believe that enough research has been done on

mechanisms etc. that we can drop the " superstitions " of TCM in favor of the

rational biomedicine. The standard of care then becomes much more Western in

orientation.

 

I myself disagree with this approach, but that's a side-issue. Me

personally, when I see a patient and their TCM signs and symptoms begin to

also suggest Western problems that may be better to address with allopathic

therapy, I don't mind referring them out to a physician. For me, I try to

remain alert to " red flags " which are things like cancer and stuff that I

wouldn't want them to go without a second opinion from a Western physician.

However this is rare since most of the people I see have already been to

their doctor(s) and have been unable to fix their problem.

 

>

> I cannot imagine how in this day and age anyone studying TCM could not

> find himself automatically trying to translate groups of symptoms into

> western terms. Thank you for your lengthy reply to my first question!

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I translate things into Western terms when I find a pattern that would

require more speedy intervention such as acute infectious hepatitis (type

A). I also translate for the benefit of explaining things to non-TCM people.

Now the fact is, this one guy who walked in to my office with a fever,

nausea, hypochondriac pain (sensitivity in area of liver). I could have

treated him for, I don't know exactly how I would have treated it, but I

could certainly have organized those signs and symptoms into a TCM syndrome.

But for some reason, I felt he would be better served by Western medicine,

and so I sent him to the local ER.

 

Where two TCM folks will draw that line varies from one practitioner to

another. In China where they can inject herbs directly into the blood

stream, the therapeutic options available to the TCM doc are much wider and

it is not unheard of to use these interventions in the emergency room. But

we don't have those tools or training here. So, we refer out when necessary.

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.