Autism / Immunizations

[Guest guest]

There was that autistic child a few weeks ago, who started to " go

downhill " after a flu shot.

 

Mr Al Stone already mentioned that the shot may have induced latent

heat in the blood (pathogens hiding in the deep) and that can be the

background of the mental problem.

 

In the Maciocia book I've found a section about immunizations

(Foundations, p.351) which quite surprised me, because I had the

impression that vaccination is a smart and perfect way to prevent a

disease.

 

Macioca says the main problem of immunization is that the pathogen,

instead of going through the four levels (defensive-qi, qi, nutritive-

qi, Blood) is injected directly at the fourth level. This may cause

latent heat to develop.

 

Maciocia says, if it does develop, it may have serious long-term

effects, like brain damage, autism, asthma, cronic cough, allergies,

skin diseases.

 

Well, that was new to me, and also frightening. I don't really know

what to think about vaccines.

 

Tamas Kenez

[Guest guest]

On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 4:37 AM, yakenez <knz wrote:

 

> In the Maciocia book I've found a section about immunizations

> (Foundations, p.351) which quite surprised me, because I had the

> impression that vaccination is a smart and perfect way to prevent a

> disease.

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

My version of Foundations doesn't mention vaccinations on page 351 nor in

the index. Perhaps you can tell us exactly what he says?

 

 

> Macioca says the main problem of immunization is that the pathogen,

> instead of going through the four levels (defensive-qi, qi, nutritive-

> qi, Blood) is injected directly at the fourth level. This may cause

> latent heat to develop.

>

> Maciocia says, if it does develop, it may have serious long-term

> effects, like brain damage, autism, asthma, cronic cough, allergies,

> skin diseases.

>

> Well, that was new to me, and also frightening. I don't really know

> what to think about vaccines.

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I won't go into whether vaccines are a good idea or not, I'm sure that most

would agree that everything has a time and a place, but perhaps differ on

what the time and place is. (Ironically, smallpox vaccinations are believed

to have begun in China.)

 

What I would like to point out is one of the criticisms of Giovanni

Maciocia's works that applies to what you've presented above. This is a good

example of a " Maciociaism " or something unique to his writings not

necessarily supported by professional TCM as practiced in modern China.

 

The idea that a vaccine is shot into the arm, or hip and thus directly into

the blood stream would therefore put the vaccination into the blood level of

the four levels is nothing more than theory. It may be 100% correct, I'm not

so much criticizing the value of his idea, only his presentation of this

idea as fact.

 

I have never seen or heard anything out of China that suggests this

" vaccinations go to the blood level " theory before. Thus, it should be read

as a theory, an idea presented by Maciocia, not as gospel truth.

 

Maciocia should present his ideas as sidebars to an otherwise successful

teaching text, not in the body of the textbook where students might believe

that this is widespread theory accepted by TCM rank and file.

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

> My version of Foundations doesn't mention vaccinations on page 351

nor in

> the index. Perhaps you can tell us exactly what he says?

 

It's the 2nd ed. The exact place is:

 

Part 4. Diagnosis /

Chapter 24. Diagnosis by interrogation /

The 16 questions /

16. Children's symptoms

 

And thanks for the thoughts on Maciocia.

 

Tamas Kenez

[Guest guest]

Hey Al, I totally agree with you, with one addition: what makes me mad is that

he has the resources to at least begin to demonstrate the validity of his

theory. All he has to do is to begin demonstrating how vaccinations can lead to

development of signs and symptoms that pertain to 4-phase theory. Maybe he does

this in the new book to some extent. Therefore I would also be interested to

know exactly what he writes.

 

Hugo

 

 

Al Stone <al

 

 

The idea that a vaccine is shot into the arm, or hip and thus directly into

the blood stream would therefore put the vaccination into the blood level of

the four levels is nothing more than theory. It may be 100% correct, I'm not

so much criticizing the value of his idea, only his presentation of this

idea as fact.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Yeah, in my (first) edition, it reads: " It is also important to ask about

vaccinations as, in some cases, these may cause problems. "

 

Its hard to complain about that statement as it really doesn't say much, but

does leave the door open to further inquiry regarding situations such as the

autistic child mentioned on this list last month.

 

-al.

 

On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 8:04 AM, yakenez <knz wrote:

 

> > My version of Foundations doesn't mention vaccinations on page 351

> nor in

> > the index. Perhaps you can tell us exactly what he says?

>

> It's the 2nd ed. The exact place is:

>

> Part 4. Diagnosis /

> Chapter 24. Diagnosis by interrogation /

> The 16 questions /

> 16. Children's symptoms

>

> And thanks for the thoughts on Maciocia.

>

> Tamas Kenez

>

 

 

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In order to reject innoculations (I don't call them immunizations), in

my view one doesn't have to prove a dramatic negative effect. You

just have to have a world view (okay, I don't know what else to call

it; I don't mean to sound pompous)which says that sickness does not

fall out of the heavens onto our poor little innocent heads for no

reason. There is purpose in the universe and sickness, esp. the

socalled infectious kind, show up in order to fix up something

happening deep inside that you can't necessarily see. But I guess

you all know that.

 

So, I can't imagine why anyone would support the basic idea behind

innoculations, namely, that it's a nasty world but, hey, Medical

Science will allow us to eat & drink & behave any way we want yet

merely receiving approximately 68 needles (filled with ghastly

substances) into our arms over our first 18 years will protect us from

the universe's purported satanic intent.

 

There have been societies in every corner of this planet, over

millenia, who had no needles in their arms, but whose members lived

long and useful lives. The weak ones died of infectious diseases,

thereby keeping the gene pool clean & strong. Now we don't have these

killer diseases, but we have - well, go to any hospital for a tour and

have a look.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

It is important to ask about immunizations as is, in some cases, these

may cause problems.

 

A full discussion of immunizations is beyond the scope of this book.

To understand the effect of immunizations from a Chinese perspective

it is necessary to refer to the theory of the Four Levels (see ch45).

When a pathogenic factor invades the body, it enters the Defensive-Qi

level first and, if not expelled, it progresses through the Qi,

Nutritive-Qi and Blood levels. The Four Levels represent four

different energetic layers of penetration of Heat, the Defensive-Qi

being the most superficial and the Blood level the deepest.

 

In short term, Latent Heat may cause a skin rash, insomnia and a

temporary change in the child's character. The long-term effects of

immunizations are more difficult to establish and the subject of great

controversy. However, if immunizations lead to Latent heat at the

Blood level, it is quite possible that they may have serious-long term

effects. These include brain damage, possibly autism, asthma, chronic

cough allergies and skin diseases later in life.

 

Children's symptoms are summarized in Box 24.41

 

This is all in table format, but you should get the just of it

 

 

 

 

Immunizations are a common cause of Latent Heat in children, which may

persist into adulthood.

 

 

 

Digestive symptoms

 

Abdominal pain: retentions of Cold in the Stomach and Intestines,

stagnation Qi in the Intestines.

 

Vomiting of milk and colic in babies: retention of food (Accumulation

Disorder)

 

 

 

Respiratory symptoms and earache

 

Cough, wheezing, breathlessness or earache: invasions of Wind

 

Chronic cough/wheezing and frequent respiratory infections: residual

pathogenic factor (usually Lung Phlegm-Heat) following invasions of

external Wind

 

Chronic earache: residual pathogenic factor, usually Damp-Heat in the

Gall Bladder Channel

 

Chronic Catarrh, with consistanly runny/blocked nose, cough, glue ear:

residual pathogenic factor after Wind invasions with a Slpeen

deficiency and Phlegm

 

 

 

Sleep

 

Disturbed sleep with loud crying in babies: retention of Food and

Stomach-Heat

 

Relatively quiet crying: possibly prenatal shock

 

Disturbed sleep in older children: usually Liver-Fire, Stomach-Heat,

retention of food.

 

 

 

Immunizations

 

Skin rash and a temporary change in the character: Latent Heat

 

 

 

 

there ya go Al =) Hopefully that helps

 

 

 

" However, if immunizations lead to Latent heat at the Blood level, it

is quite possible that they may have serious-long term effects. These

include brain damage, possibly autism, asthma, chronic cough allergies

and skin diseases later in life. "

 

To me when he says " however, if " that's saying something isn't really

known to be true, but if it does indeed cause Latent Heat in the Blood

it could really have some consequences. So it may be good to rule

that in or out in each case. I agree though, he could make it more

clear when he is stating something that he suspects or has learned

from experience.

 

> My version of Foundations doesn't mention vaccinations on page 351

nor > in the index. Perhaps you can tell us exactly what he says?

>

> , DAOM

> Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

There has been some great feedback on this topic and wanted to offer mine also.

 

(See the sites below and try to continue to educate yourself.)

 

Compare incidence rates of " common " childhood diseases in your

state/metropolitan area and then the chances of children developing autism.

 

Vaccinations are not causal of autism according to the experts but no one with

integrity argues that there is not an associative connection.

 

We didn't vaccinate and our experience has been interesting with the pressure by

pediatric doctors and others bordering on harassment.

 

Know the facts not the scare tactics on the allopathic side or the sometimes

unsubstantiated materials on the " holistic " side. Lots of question marks here.

 

Keep an open mind and find courage to ask the hard questions. Stay in touch with

your heart and own intuition.

 

I spoke to a doctor in Amish country that has seen the bright side of not

vaccinating through an allopathic lens. My personal feeling is that if you

choose to vaccinate you should do so with a radically altered schedule than what

is recommended by the medical establishment. (There is at least one seriously

bizarre recommendation!)

 

See below....

http://www.mothering.com/articles/growing_child/vaccines/wake.html

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5254a1.htm#Part%http://www.health.sta\

te.ny.us/statistics/chac/

http://www.health.state.ny.us/nysdoh/epi/93/measles.pdf

http://www.health.state.ny.us/nysdoh/epi/93/mumps.pdf

http://www.vaccineinfo.net/immunization/injury/autism/DanishMMRAutismStudy.shtml

http://www.health.state.ny.us/publications/2370.pdf

http://www.whale.to/a/yaz12.html

http://www.909shot.com/Diseases/pneumoccoal.htm

http://wonder.cdc.gov/wonder/prevguid/m0053391/m0053391.asp

 

This list only begins the long process of the research I did to try and find

some truth here.

 

Try also to remember that typical presentation for the childhood diseases we're

talking about is scary but mild. Generally drives educated parents who choose to

vaccinate the incredible fear of actually having a child who becomes seriously

of even dies of one of these diseases. It's very rare but does happen. I often

thought, " What if I'm wrong? " Hell of a thought to sleep with and basically will

come down to your own comfort level as either a parent or clinician.

 

God Bless

Pete

 

 

-

yakenez

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Wednesday, March 19, 2008 7:37 AM

[Chinese Traditional Medicine] Re: Autism / Immunizations

 

 

There was that autistic child a few weeks ago, who started to " go

downhill " after a flu shot.

 

Mr Al Stone already mentioned that the shot may have induced latent

heat in the blood (pathogens hiding in the deep) and that can be the

background of the mental problem.

 

In the Maciocia book I've found a section about immunizations

(Foundations, p.351) which quite surprised me, because I had the

impression that vaccination is a smart and perfect way to prevent a

disease.

 

Macioca says the main problem of immunization is that the pathogen,

instead of going through the four levels (defensive-qi, qi, nutritive-

qi, Blood) is injected directly at the fourth level. This may cause

latent heat to develop.

 

Maciocia says, if it does develop, it may have serious long-term

effects, like brain damage, autism, asthma, cronic cough, allergies,

skin diseases.

 

Well, that was new to me, and also frightening. I don't really know

what to think about vaccines.

 

Tamas Kenez

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Checked by AVG.

Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1332 - Release 3/17/2008

10:48 AM

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Maybe parents are in a state of torment over whether to vaccinate or

not because they are unfamiliar with successful treatments (in the

past) for these serious childhood illnesses.

 

http://www.whale.to/v/klenner3.html

 

http://www.seanet.com/~alexs/ascorbate/199x/landwehr-r-j_orthomol_med-1991-v6-n2\

-p99.htm

>

[Guest guest]

Mrs. B.,

 

Thanks for those articles, but I am unable to verify their sources. In all

of PubMed, a national database of peer-reviewed journal articles, I was

unable to locate anything by R. Klenner, nor could I locate the existence of

the source of the second article, the Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine.

 

Again, I don't especially have a problem with concern regarding

vaccinations, but if we're going to be making statements pro or con, there

should be a verifiable paper trail, especially when an article is citing a

source. No?

 

-al.

 

On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 7:49 PM, Mrs. Barley <chosenbarley wrote:

 

>

> http://www.whale.to/v/klenner3.html

>

>

>

http://www.seanet.com/~alexs/ascorbate/199x/landwehr-r-j_orthomol_med-1991-v6-n2\

-p99.htm<http://www.seanet.com/%7Ealexs/ascorbate/199x/landwehr-r-j_orthomol_med\

-1991-v6-n2-p99.htm>

> >

>

>

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine , " yakenez " <knz wrote:

 

> It's the 2nd ed. The exact place is:

 

Folks, when you cite The Foundations of by Giovanni

Maciocia, please also cite if it's the original edition or the second

edition. There have been a lot of changes between the original and the

second editions.

 

Thanks,

Victoria

[Guest guest]

Sorry Tamas and Others,

 

I noticed some typos after I sent the original message. The last paragraph has

been edited. (That's what I get for replying in a hurry after a long work day.)

 

Original Message....

 

There has been some great feedback on this topic and wanted to offer mine also.

 

(See the sites below and try to continue to educate yourself.)

 

Compare incidence rates of " common " childhood diseases in your

state/metropolitan area and then the chances of children developing autism.

 

Vaccinations are not causal of autism according to the experts but no one with

integrity argues that there is not an associative connection.

 

We didn't vaccinate and our experience has been interesting with the pressure by

pediatric doctors and others bordering on harassment.

 

Know the facts not the scare tactics on the allopathic side or the sometimes

unsubstantiated materials on the " holistic " side. Lots of question marks here.

 

Keep an open mind and find courage to ask the hard questions. Stay in touch with

your heart and own intuition.

 

I spoke to a doctor in Amish country that has seen the bright side of not

vaccinating through an allopathic lens. My personal feeling is that if you

choose to vaccinate you should do so with a radically altered schedule than what

is recommended by the medical establishment. (There is at least one seriously

bizarre recommendation!)

 

See below....

http://www.mothering.com/articles/growing_child/vaccines/wake.html

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5254a1.htm#Part%http://www.health.sta\

te.ny.us/statistics/chac/

http://www.health.state.ny.us/nysdoh/epi/93/measles.pdf

http://www.health.state.ny.us/nysdoh/epi/93/mumps.pdf

http://www.vaccineinfo.net/immunization/injury/autism/DanishMMRAutismStudy.shtml

http://www.health.state.ny.us/publications/2370.pdf

http://www.whale.to/a/yaz12.html

http://www.909shot.com/Diseases/pneumoccoal.htm

http://wonder.cdc.gov/wonder/prevguid/m0053391/m0053391.asp

 

This list only begins the long process of the research I did to try and find

some truth here.

 

Try also to remember that typical presentation for the childhood diseases we're

talking about is scary but mild. What generally drives educated parents who

choose to vaccinate is the incredible fear of actually having a child who

becomes seriously ill or even dies of one of these diseases. It's very rare but

does happen. I often thought, " What if I'm wrong? " Hell of a thought to sleep

with and basically will come down to your own comfort level as either a parent

or clinician. Our job, as I see it as clinicians, is to educate and empower.

 

God Bless

Pete

-

yakenez

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Wednesday, March 19, 2008 7:37 AM

[Chinese Traditional Medicine] Re: Autism / Immunizations

 

 

There was that autistic child a few weeks ago, who started to " go

downhill " after a flu shot.

 

Mr Al Stone already mentioned that the shot may have induced latent

heat in the blood (pathogens hiding in the deep) and that can be the

background of the mental problem.

 

In the Maciocia book I've found a section about immunizations

(Foundations, p.351) which quite surprised me, because I had the

impression that vaccination is a smart and perfect way to prevent a

disease.

 

Macioca says the main problem of immunization is that the pathogen,

instead of going through the four levels (defensive-qi, qi, nutritive-

qi, Blood) is injected directly at the fourth level. This may cause

latent heat to develop.

 

Maciocia says, if it does develop, it may have serious long-term

effects, like brain damage, autism, asthma, cronic cough, allergies,

skin diseases.

 

Well, that was new to me, and also frightening. I don't really know

what to think about vaccines.

 

Tamas Kenez

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Checked by AVG.

Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1332 - Release 3/17/2008

10:48 AM

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Unfortunately, when it comes to medical matters today, politics and

profits do need to be considered. Here's an interesting article with

some very disturbing insights:

 

Deadly Immunity

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. investigates the government cover-up of a

mercury/autism scandal

ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.

 

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/7395411/deadly_immunity/

 

Decisions like these are made more often than the general public

realizes. And not just about the possible links between autism and

vaccinations or between ADHD (Attention Deficit Hyperactivity

Disorder) and vaccinations.

 

The company that made the mercury preservative knew as early as the

1930s that there were serious problems with it, but went right on

making, using, and selling the perservative. It was a big money

maker. If they or others had tried harder (or been made to try

harder), I have no doubt they could have found something safer.

 

Now fastforward to the early 2000s in the US and the misnamed

Homeland Security Act. The original HSA was only 16 pages and made

sense. It swelled to hundreds of pages with the addition of various

pork. Part of that pork was a provision protecting thimerosal's

manufacturer from lawsuits for ***PAST*** wrong-doings. How much

incentive is there for a company to stop practices that are dangerous

if they know they can get their paid-for politicians and bureaucrats

to simply grant them immunity?

 

Another part of the HSA also provides for the forced vaccinations of

every man, woman, and child in the US with no exceptions for health

problems, religion, or choice. Actually the way the law is written it

does provide some " choice " . The " choice " between either taking the

vaccinations or being confined. Laws like these are a wet dream come

true for various industries. (They're not just confined to the

pharmaceutical industry.) Government ordering citizens - under threat

of confinement or some other punishment - to buy an industry's

product, and also ordering the tax payers, insurance companies, and

citizens to pay. And they always claim that laws like these are for

people's and society's own good. Even when there is ample evidence

they're not.

 

Under the HSA provisions, one person gets to order mandatory

vaccinations. I believe that it's the director of Homeland Security.

One person is a lot easier and cheaper to buy than several.

Especially when it comes to a majority of congress. (Follow the money

and see how much the pharmaceutical industry is contributing to

various politicians. And some people wonder why prescription drugs

cost more in the U.S. than in other countries?!?!)

 

It's not just the obvious problems of injecting mercury into people

(especially children). There are concerns about the number of

vaccinations given. When I was a kid, there were relatively few

vaccinations given. Over the decades the things vaccinated against

has steadily risen. There are concerns that the sheer number of

different things vaccinated against can trigger a shift in the immune

system.

 

Pete raised something that needs to be considered: A cost: benefit or

risks: benefit analysis. When I use the word " cost " I'm not just

restricting it to money but also including pain, suffering, and

death. With some of these vaccinations, the risks of the vaccine far

outweigh the risk of contacting the illness. A good example being

giving a baby or child the hepatitis-B vaccine. It is highly unlikely

that a baby or a child is going to contact hepatitis-B. There are a

few exceptions like a child having to receive blood transfusions. But

how many babies and children have to have blood transfusions? (Don't

believe it when the pharmaceutical industry tells you that it's not

making money off of vaccines. They are, just not the obscene amounts

they make off the drugs. However, certain companies stand to make a

lot more from vaccines thanks to the HSA.)

 

This discussion wouldn't be complete without a consideration of

history. Vaccines have been lifesavers. The most obvious example

being the smallpox vaccine. I'm in my 50s so I remember some things

that most people on here are unaware of. I remember seeing older kids

in braces, their limbs shriveled from polio. But shriveled limbs are

only a small part of the horror that was polio. If it attacked the

muscles around the rib cage the person smothered to death. The only

chance of survival was the person being place flat on his back for

months or longer in an " iron lung " . Provided one could be found. The

iron lung completely encased the person from the neck down. If you've

ever seen a picture of someone in an iron lung you understand exactly

what a good thing the Salk polio vaccine was.

 

In the early days of vaccinations they were reserved only for very

serious, life-threatening illnesses for which adequate treatment did

not exist. I'm amazed at the conditions children are vaccinated

against today as well as what vaccines are being sought against.

Like measles (not German measles) and mumps. Yes, both measles and

mumps can result in some very severe and even life-threatening

manifestations in a small number of patients. Especially when one

does not get the proper rest and follow guidelines like keeping one's

eyes shielded from light while meascles runs it course. And yes, I

can see the possible need of a vaccine against German measles which

can result in deformities to unborn babies if a pregnanat woman

catches German measles. But I have a hard time seeing vaccinations

and their risks for other forms of measles and for mumps.

 

Unfortunately, politics and the profit motive also raise their ugly

heads in regard to what version of a vaccination is chosen. A case in

point being the Sabin polio vaccine that replaced the Salk polio

vaccine. The Sabin vaccine is made with live though weakened virus. A

problem is that people who receive this vaccination shed the live

virus through their saliva, urine, and feces, and can and have

infected people who have not been vaccinated. (I got this info from a

PBS program on the Salk and Sabin vaccines. It's been so many years I

don't remember the title. Sorry.)

 

Something else that interested readers may want to look up are the

symptoms of mercury poisoning. Many on here no doubt are familiar

with the expression " mad as a hatter " and the character The Mad

Hatter in the book Alice In Wonderland. Mercury poisoning was an

occupational hazard for people who made hats out of pelts because

mercury was used in the process. There are charts on the Internet

that list compare the symptoms of mercury poisoning to those of

autism.

 

Victoria

[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine , " Al Stone " <al wrote:

>

> Mrs. B.,

>

> Thanks for those articles, but I am unable to verify their sources.

In all

> of PubMed, a national database of peer-reviewed journal articles, I was

> unable to locate anything by R. Klenner, nor could I locate the

existence of

> the source of the second article, the Journal of Orthomolecular

Medicine.

 

 

That's true, there are no articles by Fred Klenner on PubMed, now that

you mention it.

[Guest guest]

I'm a bit late in responding to this thread as I was out of town for a

week and just getting around to catching up....

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine , " Al Stone " <al wrote:

 

> The idea that a vaccine is shot into the arm, or hip and thus

directly into

> the blood stream would therefore put the vaccination into the blood

level of

> the four levels is nothing more than theory. It may be 100% correct,

I'm not

> so much criticizing the value of his idea, only his presentation of this

> idea as fact.

 

An online article I read years ago at a Swedish website mentioned that

the immune system is mobilised when it detects a virus, usually

through the respiratory system. There were I think, about 4 phases of

immune system respones (it may have been more or less) which are

called into play to keep the virus from entering the blood stream. So

it always seemed to me the very wrong thing to do to `immunize' a

person is to inject the virus directly into the blood stream. The

virus, whether dead or live, doesn't enter the body the same way that

exposure does, and so may either fail to protect or overstimulate the

immune system.

 

sue