Long term effects of cannibis . . .

[Guest guest]

I kind of hate to bring this up, but I have this friend who is a long

term user of cannibis. He also has history of chronic depression and

illicit drug use.

 

No hard drugs and rarely any licquor for 2 years, but he is not back

on psych meds for depression. Currently, he is not depressed, per

se, but stressed out. Worries alot.

 

He is not using illicit drugs right now, except cannibis, maybe 2-3

times per week. And he smokes maybe 4-5 packs a week.

 

He eats okay, not a lot of rich food or processed food, but hardly

has any appetite. I peeked at his tongue, and it has almost no

coating, I think, but I'm no expert of course.

 

He also had a stomach infection of some sort about 2 mos ago and has

lost 20 lbs. and hasn't been able to pick the weight back up since

then. Kind of red-faced complexion, but not overly so, may just be

his coloring.

 

He tends to be kind of laid back, self-effacing but very social and

talkative.

 

We had this discussion about how my sugar addiction and his nicotine

addiction are probably more damaging in the long run than cannibis,

but I wondered what the TCM perspective on that was. Does he show

signs of some kind of imbalance due to cannibis or some other drugs?

 

A lot of it just seems to me like negative effects of nicotine, but

maybe there is something I am missing.

[Guest guest]

Actually, I looked at his tongue again. He has a whitish tongue

coating--not too thick or thin--except there is none around the edges

of his tongue. I also found out that he tends toward acid reflux.

And the depression tends to come and go, some good days some bad days.

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine , " syriajboyd " <syriajboyd

wrote:

>

> I kind of hate to bring this up, but I have this friend who is a

long

> term user of cannibis. He also has history of chronic depression

and

> illicit drug use.

>

> No hard drugs and rarely any licquor for 2 years, but he is not

back

> on psych meds for depression. Currently, he is not depressed, per

> se, but stressed out. Worries alot.

>

> He is not using illicit drugs right now, except cannibis, maybe 2-3

> times per week. And he smokes maybe 4-5 packs a week.

>

> He eats okay, not a lot of rich food or processed food, but hardly

> has any appetite. I peeked at his tongue, and it has almost no

> coating, I think, but I'm no expert of course.

>

> He also had a stomach infection of some sort about 2 mos ago and

has

> lost 20 lbs. and hasn't been able to pick the weight back up since

> then. Kind of red-faced complexion, but not overly so, may just be

> his coloring.

>

> He tends to be kind of laid back, self-effacing but very social and

> talkative.

>

> We had this discussion about how my sugar addiction and his

nicotine

> addiction are probably more damaging in the long run than cannibis,

> but I wondered what the TCM perspective on that was. Does he show

> signs of some kind of imbalance due to cannibis or some other

drugs?

>

> A lot of it just seems to me like negative effects of nicotine, but

> maybe there is something I am missing.

>

[Guest guest]

On Dec 31, 2007 3:28 PM, syriajboyd <syriajboyd wrote:

 

> I kind of hate to bring this up, but I have this friend who is a long

> term user of cannibis. He also has history of chronic depression and

> illicit drug use.

>

> No hard drugs and rarely any licquor for 2 years, but he is not back

> on psych meds for depression. Currently, he is not depressed, per

> se, but stressed out. Worries alot.

>

> He is not using illicit drugs right now, except cannibis, maybe 2-3

> times per week. And he smokes maybe 4-5 packs a week.

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, if we see indications of dryness or heat in the Lungs then we've got a

problem. Cannabis is very hot and dry, even with using water pipes, plus the

tobacco has its own Lung problems.

 

Cannabis is a politically charged issue, so I'll be delicate and admit up

front that my perception of the rigorous research on this topic appears to

be often bankrolled by groups who have a vested interest in the topic on

either side of the issue, or so it seems. I have done my homework and

decided (to my own satisfaction) that cannabis smoking is a form of

addiction, however it is otherwise benign. I use that " addiction " term in

the Buddhist sense in which one is seeking out some sort of pleasant

sensation outside of one's self rather than meditating into an acceptance of

all transitory physical sensations.

 

That being said, I have seen many individuals who smoke a few times per week

who are apathetic and otherwise not especially in-the-groove of general

society. I believe that they call this " amotivational syndrome " sometimes

associated with cannabis smoking (or adolescence!) However in the creative

and entertainment industries, many musical " hits " were created after a few

" hits " of something else and is an important part of the creative industry.

 

As for its effect from a TCM standpoint, I have only one herb book that

makes mention of cannabis as a medicinal herb. It states that the flowers

and achenia (best definition I could find was seed pod, I'm going to take

that as " bud " ) were recommended in the " 120 forms of fêng " . This is " wind "

in English, but way back when, there was much more than " Liver wind " which

can look like tics, tremors, and spasms. Back then, you could have Kidney

wind, Spleen wind, any Zäng organ could have wind in it. Wind was the big

boogie man in early TCM and cannabis was used for it. However, get this:

" The achenia (bud) was considered to be poisonous, stimulated the nervous

system, and if used in excess, would produce hallucinations and staggering

gait. " Not to mention wasting one's vote on the Green Party. (JOKE!)

 

> He eats okay, not a lot of rich food or processed food, but hardly

> has any appetite. I peeked at his tongue, and it has almost no

> coating, I think, but I'm no expert of course.

>

 

 

 

 

 

No coating is a problem, however " almost no coating " is really what we're

shooting for. You should see a coating, but it should be thin enough to see

through. When the coating is missing, you'll not see anything there, and in

many cases the tongue's coating will look really shiny like a mirror or like

a recent wound in which the scab has recently been ripped off. Kind of naked

in its way.

 

He also had a stomach infection of some sort about 2 mos ago and has

> lost 20 lbs. and hasn't been able to pick the weight back up since

> then. Kind of red-faced complexion, but not overly so, may just be

> his coloring.

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

Could be his coloring, yes. This red complexion is most common among

individuals of northern European ancestry. Irish too. But if we see other

indications of heat, then we might go ahead and move that complexion issue

from the physiological (normal state) column to the pathological (disease

state) column. This weight loss is of major concern unless maybe he's really

overweight. Unexplained weight-loss shows up on those list of " red flag

indications " that can warrant a trip to a cancer specialist. This is also

smelling a bit like early stage adult onset diabetes. If he has any family

members with diabetes this may be something to prevent through lifestyle

changes now.

 

> He tends to be kind of laid back, self-effacing but very social and

> talkative.

>

> We had this discussion about how my sugar addiction and his nicotine

> addiction are probably more damaging in the long run than cannibis,

> but I wondered what the TCM perspective on that was. Does he show

> signs of some kind of imbalance due to cannibis or some other drugs?

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not really. If anything, the pot will increase his appetite. He isn't

conforming to the usual suspects of syndromes, but there does appear to be

something going on there. Perhaps a Spleen qi deficiency at the same time,

as this can cause a lack of appetite and weight loss (or weight gain with

dampness). The depression and history of drug use too would encourage me to

attend to his emotional needs as these can be more potent a cause of

problems than a few hits of pot per week.

 

We all agree that tobacco and cannabis are not good for you. We all agree

that high-caloric fast food and a sentient lifestyle are not good for you.

All of these things add to the big picture. However which one or two or

three is really causing his pattern of disharmony is difficult to say. It

kind of comes down to which is damaging him the most. You know, tobacco is

an herb that used to be prescribed for dampness in the Lungs because of its

drying influence. (Tobacco's a " new world " thing, isn't it? Strange.)

 

So, everything has its place. If the smoking is really a problem for this

guy, expect to see Lung problems.

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Allan,

 

I have chronic nasal congestion from years of smoking both pot and cigarettes.

I have a terrible time with it when I am trying to sleep. I have since quit

smoking both, going on my 17th year.

 

I understand this congestion is related to my lung wind. Any TCM suggestions for

this depilating problem?

 

Thank you.

 

Rick

-

Al Stone

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Wednesday, January 02, 2008 10:27 AM

Re: [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Long term effects of cannibis . . .

 

 

On Dec 31, 2007 3:28 PM, syriajboyd <syriajboyd wrote:

 

> I kind of hate to bring this up, but I have this friend who is a long

> term user of cannibis. He also has history of chronic depression and

> illicit drug use.

>

> No hard drugs and rarely any licquor for 2 years, but he is not back

> on psych meds for depression. Currently, he is not depressed, per

> se, but stressed out. Worries alot.

>

> He is not using illicit drugs right now, except cannibis, maybe 2-3

> times per week. And he smokes maybe 4-5 packs a week.

>

 

Well, if we see indications of dryness or heat in the Lungs then we've got a

problem. Cannabis is very hot and dry, even with using water pipes, plus the

tobacco has its own Lung problems.

 

Cannabis is a politically charged issue, so I'll be delicate and admit up

front that my perception of the rigorous research on this topic appears to

be often bankrolled by groups who have a vested interest in the topic on

either side of the issue, or so it seems. I have done my homework and

decided (to my own satisfaction) that cannabis smoking is a form of

addiction, however it is otherwise benign. I use that " addiction " term in

the Buddhist sense in which one is seeking out some sort of pleasant

sensation outside of one's self rather than meditating into an acceptance of

all transitory physical sensations.

 

That being said, I have seen many individuals who smoke a few times per week

who are apathetic and otherwise not especially in-the-groove of general

society. I believe that they call this " amotivational syndrome " sometimes

associated with cannabis smoking (or adolescence!) However in the creative

and entertainment industries, many musical " hits " were created after a few

" hits " of something else and is an important part of the creative industry.

 

As for its effect from a TCM standpoint, I have only one herb book that

makes mention of cannabis as a medicinal herb. It states that the flowers

and achenia (best definition I could find was seed pod, I'm going to take

that as " bud " ) were recommended in the " 120 forms of fêng " . This is " wind "

in English, but way back when, there was much more than " Liver wind " which

can look like tics, tremors, and spasms. Back then, you could have Kidney

wind, Spleen wind, any Zäng organ could have wind in it. Wind was the big

boogie man in early TCM and cannabis was used for it. However, get this:

" The achenia (bud) was considered to be poisonous, stimulated the nervous

system, and if used in excess, would produce hallucinations and staggering

gait. " Not to mention wasting one's vote on the Green Party. (JOKE!)

 

> He eats okay, not a lot of rich food or processed food, but hardly

> has any appetite. I peeked at his tongue, and it has almost no

> coating, I think, but I'm no expert of course.

>

 

No coating is a problem, however " almost no coating " is really what we're

shooting for. You should see a coating, but it should be thin enough to see

through. When the coating is missing, you'll not see anything there, and in

many cases the tongue's coating will look really shiny like a mirror or like

a recent wound in which the scab has recently been ripped off. Kind of naked

in its way.

 

He also had a stomach infection of some sort about 2 mos ago and has

> lost 20 lbs. and hasn't been able to pick the weight back up since

> then. Kind of red-faced complexion, but not overly so, may just be

> his coloring.

>

 

Could be his coloring, yes. This red complexion is most common among

individuals of northern European ancestry. Irish too. But if we see other

indications of heat, then we might go ahead and move that complexion issue

from the physiological (normal state) column to the pathological (disease

state) column. This weight loss is of major concern unless maybe he's really

overweight. Unexplained weight-loss shows up on those list of " red flag

indications " that can warrant a trip to a cancer specialist. This is also

smelling a bit like early stage adult onset diabetes. If he has any family

members with diabetes this may be something to prevent through lifestyle

changes now.

 

> He tends to be kind of laid back, self-effacing but very social and

> talkative.

>

> We had this discussion about how my sugar addiction and his nicotine

> addiction are probably more damaging in the long run than cannibis,

> but I wondered what the TCM perspective on that was. Does he show

> signs of some kind of imbalance due to cannibis or some other drugs?

>

 

Not really. If anything, the pot will increase his appetite. He isn't

conforming to the usual suspects of syndromes, but there does appear to be

something going on there. Perhaps a Spleen qi deficiency at the same time,

as this can cause a lack of appetite and weight loss (or weight gain with

dampness). The depression and history of drug use too would encourage me to

attend to his emotional needs as these can be more potent a cause of

problems than a few hits of pot per week.

 

We all agree that tobacco and cannabis are not good for you. We all agree

that high-caloric fast food and a sentient lifestyle are not good for you.

All of these things add to the big picture. However which one or two or

three is really causing his pattern of disharmony is difficult to say. It

kind of comes down to which is damaging him the most. You know, tobacco is

an herb that used to be prescribed for dampness in the Lungs because of its

drying influence. (Tobacco's a " new world " thing, isn't it? Strange.)

 

So, everything has its place. If the smoking is really a problem for this

guy, expect to see Lung problems.

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

[Guest guest]

On Jan 2, 2008 1:45 PM, Rick Brown <bigskyagency wrote:

 

> Dear Allan,

>

> I have chronic nasal congestion from years of smoking both pot and

> cigarettes. I have a terrible time with it when I am trying to sleep. I have

> since quit smoking both, going on my 17th year.

>

> I understand this congestion is related to my lung wind. Any TCM

> suggestions for this depilating problem?

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If this is a wind attack that you're having at night, you can think of it as

an allergic type response. Not inclined to think that this is a direct

result of smoking, 17 years later. If it is " lung wind " due to " Lung qi

deficiency " then you may also sweat for no reason and have a weak voice. If

that's the case, then I would get you thinking about a formula called Yu

Ping Feng San.

 

However, it may also be that the munchies that your pot gave you established

some dampness in your Lungs, perhaps continually aggravated by dietary

issues now. There's an ancient saying that says dampness is created in the

earth (digestive) organs and is stored in the metal organs (Lungs and Large

Intestine.) The Lungs are obviously connected to the nose and sometimes when

you lay down, all that dampness backs up into the nose. If this is the case,

a drying formula that might stimulate the efficiency of your digestion might

be indicated. If you do have internal dampness, look for frequent

indigestion, loose poop, mucus lined poop, smeary poop, lack of appetite,

and perhaps a sensitivity to motion sickness. Sound like you?

 

-al.

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine , " Al Stone " <al wrote:

>

> Well, if we see indications of dryness or heat in the Lungs then

we've got a

> problem. Cannabis is very hot and dry, even with using water pipes,

plus the

> tobacco has its own Lung problems.

 

I am not familiar with what heat in the lungs would look like. He

has an occasional cough. Also has another virus or cold or something.

 

However, get this:

> " The achenia (bud) was considered to be poisonous, stimulated the

nervous

> system, and if used in excess, would produce hallucinations and

staggering

> gait. " Not to mention wasting one's vote on the Green Party. (JOKE!)

 

Hey! No, in hindsight maybe I did waste a vote, but not for the usu.

reasons one might think. But I'll save that for another list another

day.

 

When the coating is missing, you'll not see anything there, and in

> many cases the tongue's coating will look really shiny like a

mirror or like

> a recent wound in which the scab has recently been ripped off. Kind

of naked

> in its way.

 

Er, thanks for the clarification - rich with imagery.

 

 

> Could be his coloring, yes. This red complexion is most common among

> individuals of northern European ancestry. Irish too. But if we see

other

> indications of heat, then we might go ahead and move that

complexion issue

> from the physiological (normal state) column to the pathological

(disease

> state) column.

 

Scottish & Irish actually. (Didn't Julius Caesar call the Scots red

brutes?)

 

This weight loss is of major concern unless maybe he's really

> overweight.

 

Actually, he is well over 6 foot and lanky. I didn't honestly notice

the weight loss until he told me, but I guess a sudden 20 lb loss is

a bad thing. When you tend toward dampness you tend to think of

sudden weight loss a boon from the heavens. But the fact that he

can't put the weight back on is distressing to him.

 

Uexplained weight-loss shows up on those list of " red flag

> indications " that can warrant a trip to a cancer specialist. This

is also

> smelling a bit like early stage adult onset diabetes. If he has any

family

> members with diabetes this may be something to prevent through

lifestyle

> changes now.

 

Unfortunately, he is uninsured right now. I wasn't going to press

more about his health out of respect for his privacy, but I will go

back to him with that.

 

 

> Not really. If anything, the pot will increase his appetite. He

isn't

> conforming to the usual suspects of syndromes, but there does

appear to be

> something going on there. Perhaps a Spleen qi deficiency at the

same time,

> as this can cause a lack of appetite and weight loss (or weight

gain with

> dampness). The depression and history of drug use too would

encourage me to

> attend to his emotional needs as these can be more potent a cause of

> problems than a few hits of pot per week.

>

> We all agree that tobacco and cannabis are not good for you. We all

agree

> that high-caloric fast food and a sentient lifestyle are not good

for you.

> All of these things add to the big picture. However which one or

two or

> three is really causing his pattern of disharmony is difficult to

say. It

> kind of comes down to which is damaging him the most. You know,

tobacco is

> an herb that used to be prescribed for dampness in the Lungs

because of its

> drying influence. (Tobacco's a " new world " thing, isn't it?

Strange.)

>

> So, everything has its place. If the smoking is really a problem

for this

> guy, expect to see Lung problems.

 

 

Well, thank you Al! I will press on him seeing an MD. I never would

have thought of cancer. I'll query him on diabetes II. Barring

cancer and diabetes, he is going through a very stressful transition

in his life.

 

He could just be puffing away so much that the cigarettes are killing

his appetite. Stress will worsen any Spleen Qi Deficiency I would

imagine, and causes many folks to lose appetite.

 

Maybe he can take some time off and rest and try to smoke less. By

the time he gets an appointment at a county clinic maybe he could

pick up some weight. Thanks again! sjb

 

> --

> , DAOM

> Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

On Jan 6, 2008 10:16 AM, syriajboyd <syriajboyd wrote:

 

> Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40>,

> " Al Stone " <al wrote:

> >

> > Well, if we see indications of dryness or heat in the Lungs then

> we've got a

> > problem. Cannabis is very hot and dry, even with using water pipes,

> plus the

> > tobacco has its own Lung problems.

>

> I am not familiar with what heat in the lungs would look like. He

> has an occasional cough. Also has another virus or cold or something.

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lung heat would actually look like your typical flu with a fever, but in its

wake it will leave a Lung yin deficiency. Think of this as how a fever

produces a dehydrated state in the body. So symptoms of damage of hot smoke

in the lungs would include dry mouth, dry cough, and thirst.

 

>

> Scottish & Irish actually. (Didn't Julius Caesar call the Scots red

> brutes?)

>

 

 

 

 

So we can rule out his red complexion as meaning anything other than he is a

red brute. Scots invented golf, too, didn't they? Mr. Caesar should keep

that in mind.

 

>

>

> This weight loss is of major concern unless maybe he's really

> > overweight.

>

> Actually, he is well over 6 foot and lanky. I didn't honestly notice

> the weight loss until he told me, but I guess a sudden 20 lb loss is

> a bad thing. When you tend toward dampness you tend to think of

> sudden weight loss a boon from the heavens. But the fact that he

> can't put the weight back on is distressing to him.

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How much does he weigh? If he's dropping down beneath 140 lbs he should

probably get this taken care of sooner than later. If he's still over say

180 pounds, perhaps it isn't the end of the world.

 

Unfortunately, he is uninsured right now. I wasn't going to press

> more about his health out of respect for his privacy, but I will go

> back to him with that.

>

 

 

 

 

It may be nothing but some stress-induced anorexia or food stagnation or

something somewhat benign. Sometimes these red-flag symptoms are nothing but

a transitory issue. Perhaps there's a " free clinic " in your area?

 

>

> Well, thank you Al! I will press on him seeing an MD. I never would

> have thought of cancer. I'll query him on diabetes II. Barring

> cancer and diabetes, he is going through a very stressful transition

> in his life.

>

> He could just be puffing away so much that the cigarettes are killing

> his appetite. Stress will worsen any Spleen Qi Deficiency I would

> imagine, and causes many folks to lose appetite.

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, very much so. You know, it is said (I just haven't really looked this

up, not sure if its true) that some American Indian tribes used tobacco as

an appetite suppressant. Not so much for dieting, but when there was no

food, tobacco was smoked in order to prevent hunger pains. In my own

personal history, I found that tobacco would lower the amount of food that I

ate, plus I tended to smoke more when there was some worry going on. Perhaps

the two issues are related.

 

>

>

> Maybe he can take some time off and rest and try to smoke less. By

> the time he gets an appointment at a county clinic maybe he could

> pick up some weight. Thanks again! sjb

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'll bet he likes chocolate. How about a big fat chocolate cake for the

guy? (better rule out diabetes first though.)

 

-al.

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.