Si Ni San/Nighttime Numbness in Hands

[Guest guest]

For the past year or more I've had a problem with my hands becoming numb

while I'm sleeping. I usually have to wake up several times a night and

rub them. My acupuncturist gave me Si Ni San and within a day or so the

problem subsided, but it returns if I stop taking the Si Ni San. What

does this symptom and the fact that Si Ni San relieves it indicate?

Liver Qi Stagnation? Will it eventually clear up permanently if I keep

taking Si Ni San? Or is there something more I can do? I can't afford

more acupuncture at the moment.

 

--

Nancy S+13

[Guest guest]

On Dec 9, 2007 7:51 AM, Nancy S+13 <nancy wrote:

 

> For the past year or more I've had a problem with my hands becoming numb

>

> while I'm sleeping. I usually have to wake up several times a night and

> rub them. My acupuncturist gave me Si Ni San and within a day or so the

> problem subsided, but it returns if I stop taking the Si Ni San. What

> does this symptom and the fact that Si Ni San relieves it indicate?

> Liver Qi Stagnation? Will it eventually clear up permanently if I keep

> taking Si Ni San? Or is there something more I can do? I can't afford

> more acupuncture at the moment.

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, si ni san's efficacy suggests that the cause for your numb hands is qi

stagnation.

 

The fact that it happens at night while sleeping kind of makes me think more

about blood stagnation personally, but what works is more important than

what makes sense.

 

If your qi stagnation is due to a dry bloodless Liver, then in time, the bai

shao in si ni san will address that to the point where you don't have to

take this formula all the time. A dry bloodless liver would likely look a

bit like anemia from the Western standpoint. Consider some good quality red

meat too, or anything else to generate more blood like an iron supplement,

green leafy veggies, or something like that.

 

If your qi stagnation is induced by stress, then lifestyle changes are going

to help more. Meditation, prayer, dancing naked when nobody's watching,

usual stuff that makes people feel free and happy. Sometimes addressing qi

stagnation includes changing jobs, careers, mates, etc. So if you're not

addressing your personal issues, you'll need to continue to take your si ni

san.

 

Because the problem is more evident at night, I have to at least consider

blood circulation as a component here. For this reason, you might find some

benefit in aerobic exercise too. Get out there and get some huffing and

puffing in and your heart will be happier and blood will circulate better.

 

-al.

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

http://beyondwellbeing.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Al, do you think it would be helpful to treat for liver qi stagnation

and blood stagnation? Is there a formula that would address both?

 

Al Stone wrote:

>

> On Dec 9, 2007 7:51 AM, Nancy S+13 <nancy

> <nancy%40schimelpfening.net>> wrote:

>

> > For the past year or more I've had a problem with my hands becoming numb

> >

> > while I'm sleeping. I usually have to wake up several times a night and

> > rub them. My acupuncturist gave me Si Ni San and within a day or so the

> > problem subsided, but it returns if I stop taking the Si Ni San. What

> > does this symptom and the fact that Si Ni San relieves it indicate?

> > Liver Qi Stagnation? Will it eventually clear up permanently if I keep

> > taking Si Ni San? Or is there something more I can do? I can't afford

> > more acupuncture at the moment.

> >

>

> Yes, si ni san's efficacy suggests that the cause for your numb hands

> is qi

> stagnation.

>

> The fact that it happens at night while sleeping kind of makes me

> think more

> about blood stagnation personally, but what works is more important than

> what makes sense.

>

> If your qi stagnation is due to a dry bloodless Liver, then in time,

> the bai

> shao in si ni san will address that to the point where you don't have to

> take this formula all the time. A dry bloodless liver would likely look a

> bit like anemia from the Western standpoint. Consider some good

> quality red

> meat too, or anything else to generate more blood like an iron supplement,

> green leafy veggies, or something like that.

>

> If your qi stagnation is induced by stress, then lifestyle changes are

> going

> to help more. Meditation, prayer, dancing naked when nobody's watching,

> usual stuff that makes people feel free and happy. Sometimes addressing qi

> stagnation includes changing jobs, careers, mates, etc. So if you're not

> addressing your personal issues, you'll need to continue to take your

> si ni

> san.

>

> Because the problem is more evident at night, I have to at least consider

> blood circulation as a component here. For this reason, you might find

> some

> benefit in aerobic exercise too. Get out there and get some huffing and

> puffing in and your heart will be happier and blood will circulate better.

>

> -al.

>

> --

> , DAOM

> Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

> http://beyondwellbeing.com <http://beyondwellbeing.com>

>

>

[Guest guest]

On Dec 9, 2007 12:18 PM, Nancy S+13 <nancy wrote:

 

> Al, do you think it would be helpful to treat for liver qi stagnation

> and blood stagnation? Is there a formula that would address both?

>

 

 

 

 

Yes, there are formulas that address both, plus many practitioners write

their own formulas to take a little bit from this formula and a little bit

from that one and end up with a formula written just for you and your cold

hands. However, if the si ni san is working, that matters. " Working " is good

and it is important to give that its proper weight in this discussion.

 

The important thing is to first decide if you do in fact have blood

stagnation. The reason I brought that up is because when you're sleeping,

the stress response (qi stagnation) can take a break and also because blood

circulation will be at least partially responsible for your hands " falling

asleep " as they can do when you're laying on an artery. Still, " qi is the

commander of blood " and so qi stagnation can cause blood stagnation.

 

If you are of child bearing age, bloating and distension, dull pain,

moodiness are all indications of qi stagnation as part of what we now call

PMS. However, blood stagnation will cause sharp pains that are fixed and

localized in the lower abdomen. Blood stagnation can also cause the menses

to be dark or purple, as well as really clotty. Most menses are someone

purple toward the end, so you have to kind of take these signs in context.

Are they VERY purple or VERY lumpy? That's where we get into blood

stagnation.

 

When being asked to point to your pain (if any), a qi stagnation patient

will place the palm over the area and say " around here " while a blood

stagnation patient will point to the location of the pain with one finger

and say " right here " .

 

Qi stagnation in the chest will cause frequent signing. Blood stagnation in

the chest will cause angina or sharp pains. Qi stagnation causes a sensation

of largeness which may or may not be evident to anybody else. Distension,

bloating, gas without a strong odor are all indications of qi stagnation.

Blood stagnation doesn't produce gas, and instead of causing bloating, can

cause lumps or as I mentioned in one of the doggy posts, can effect the

physical nature of an organ, while qi stagnation is more effecting the

function of an organ, not its physicality.

 

Qi stagnation (by itself) may not cause any change in the color of the

tongue, blood stagnation can make the tongue and/or lips look mauve to

purple. Other things can turn purple too, like the tissue beneath the

fingernails. It isn't uncommon to have a bit of a purple hue beneath the

fingernails, but to know for sure, compare the color of your fingers to

someone who is otherwise healthy.

 

So, the best way to really know if you have qi or blood stagnation is in

regards to menstrual stuff. Of course, you can have both too, but we don't

really know that yet.

 

-al.

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

http://beyondwellbeing.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Based upon what you are saying, I guess I'd say it's more qi

stagnation. One symptom I have is my belly swells up until I look

almost pregnant, but goes back to being flat if I use a diuretic. Is

this what you mean by bloating and distension? It's not just during my

period though. It's all month long.

 

Al Stone wrote:

>

> On Dec 9, 2007 12:18 PM, Nancy S+13 <nancy

> <nancy%40schimelpfening.net>> wrote:

>

> > Al, do you think it would be helpful to treat for liver qi stagnation

> > and blood stagnation? Is there a formula that would address both?

> >

>

> Yes, there are formulas that address both, plus many practitioners write

> their own formulas to take a little bit from this formula and a little bit

> from that one and end up with a formula written just for you and your cold

> hands. However, if the si ni san is working, that matters. " Working "

> is good

> and it is important to give that its proper weight in this discussion.

>

> The important thing is to first decide if you do in fact have blood

> stagnation. The reason I brought that up is because when you're sleeping,

> the stress response (qi stagnation) can take a break and also because

> blood

> circulation will be at least partially responsible for your hands " falling

> asleep " as they can do when you're laying on an artery. Still, " qi is the

> commander of blood " and so qi stagnation can cause blood stagnation.

>

> If you are of child bearing age, bloating and distension, dull pain,

> moodiness are all indications of qi stagnation as part of what we now call

> PMS. However, blood stagnation will cause sharp pains that are fixed and

> localized in the lower abdomen. Blood stagnation can also cause the menses

> to be dark or purple, as well as really clotty. Most menses are someone

> purple toward the end, so you have to kind of take these signs in context.

> Are they VERY purple or VERY lumpy? That's where we get into blood

> stagnation.

>

> When being asked to point to your pain (if any), a qi stagnation patient

> will place the palm over the area and say " around here " while a blood

> stagnation patient will point to the location of the pain with one finger

> and say " right here " .

>

> Qi stagnation in the chest will cause frequent signing. Blood

> stagnation in

> the chest will cause angina or sharp pains. Qi stagnation causes a

> sensation

> of largeness which may or may not be evident to anybody else. Distension,

> bloating, gas without a strong odor are all indications of qi stagnation.

> Blood stagnation doesn't produce gas, and instead of causing bloating, can

> cause lumps or as I mentioned in one of the doggy posts, can effect the

> physical nature of an organ, while qi stagnation is more effecting the

> function of an organ, not its physicality.

>

> Qi stagnation (by itself) may not cause any change in the color of the

> tongue, blood stagnation can make the tongue and/or lips look mauve to

> purple. Other things can turn purple too, like the tissue beneath the

> fingernails. It isn't uncommon to have a bit of a purple hue beneath the

> fingernails, but to know for sure, compare the color of your fingers to

> someone who is otherwise healthy.

>

> So, the best way to really know if you have qi or blood stagnation is in

> regards to menstrual stuff. Of course, you can have both too, but we don't

> really know that yet.

>

> -al.

>

> --

> , DAOM

> Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

> http://beyondwellbeing.com <http://beyondwellbeing.com>

>

>

[Guest guest]

On Dec 9, 2007 8:04 PM, Nancy S+13 <nancy wrote:

 

> Based upon what you are saying, I guess I'd say it's more qi

> stagnation. One symptom I have is my belly swells up until I look

> almost pregnant, but goes back to being flat if I use a diuretic. Is

> this what you mean by bloating and distension? It's not just during my

> period though. It's all month long.

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, this is a good example of the relationships that dampness and qi

stagnation have. Dampness would be addressed by a diuretic (makes you

urinate), and dampness can also cause qi stagnation and so the diuretic

helps with the bloating.

 

The all month long aspect of it doesn't really change my assessment. If it

were just before the period that would further confirm things, but being all

month long doesn't change my mind much.

 

You may want to consider a formula such as Xiao Yao San (that last word can

change depending on the format of the formula). This formula moves qi and

dries damp, not through diuresis, but by strengthening the Spleen. Dampness

often originates in the digestion organs (Spleen/Stomach).

 

You might also try the Si Ni San when you have that bloating. It really does

come down to six of one and a half dozen of the other. You can move qi to

dry damp, or dry damp to move qi. One will work better than the other, but

I'm not sure which is best for you. Try the Si Ni San when you're feeling

" pregnant " and perhaps you'll find that it works better than your diuretic.

 

The other option is to have a custom formula made for you. For instance, Si

Ni San plus chen pi (tangerine peel) and hou po (magnolia bark) would be a

good way to cover both bases at once.

 

-al.

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

http://beyondwellbeing.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Now that I think about it, I haven't felt quite so bloated since I've

been using the Si Ni San. I hadn't really connected the two before

though. I guess I was thinking of dampness and qi stagnation and two

separate things instead of seeing the relationship between them.

 

Question: Could liver qi stagnation eventually lead to spleen qi

deficiency? Since liver qi stagnation can create dampness and the

spleen doesn't like dampness? I'm trying to understand the root cause

of my problems (spleen qi deficiency and kidney yang and yin deficiency

are the main things my acupuncturist mentioned; western diagnoses of

PCOS, insulin resistance, high cholesterol). I ask about liver qi

stagnation being the root of it all because years ago I was a heavy

drinker and also used birth control pills. I was in a very stressful

relationship at the time too and had a lot of sadness and anger due to

that. I was wondering if all this could be the root cause of the health

issues I currently deal with? Maybe my liver got overwhelmed and never

had a chance to recover?

 

By the way, thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. I

really appreciate the info.

 

Al Stone wrote:

>

> On Dec 9, 2007 8:04 PM, Nancy S+13 <nancy

> <nancy%40schimelpfening.net>> wrote:

>

> > Based upon what you are saying, I guess I'd say it's more qi

> > stagnation. One symptom I have is my belly swells up until I look

> > almost pregnant, but goes back to being flat if I use a diuretic. Is

> > this what you mean by bloating and distension? It's not just during my

> > period though. It's all month long.

> >

>

> Yeah, this is a good example of the relationships that dampness and qi

> stagnation have. Dampness would be addressed by a diuretic (makes you

> urinate), and dampness can also cause qi stagnation and so the diuretic

> helps with the bloating.

>

> The all month long aspect of it doesn't really change my assessment. If it

> were just before the period that would further confirm things, but

> being all

> month long doesn't change my mind much.

>

> You may want to consider a formula such as Xiao Yao San (that last

> word can

> change depending on the format of the formula). This formula moves qi and

> dries damp, not through diuresis, but by strengthening the Spleen.

> Dampness

> often originates in the digestion organs (Spleen/Stomach).

>

> You might also try the Si Ni San when you have that bloating. It

> really does

> come down to six of one and a half dozen of the other. You can move qi to

> dry damp, or dry damp to move qi. One will work better than the other, but

> I'm not sure which is best for you. Try the Si Ni San when you're feeling

> " pregnant " and perhaps you'll find that it works better than your

> diuretic.

>

> The other option is to have a custom formula made for you. For

> instance, Si

> Ni San plus chen pi (tangerine peel) and hou po (magnolia bark) would be a

> good way to cover both bases at once.

>

> -al.

>

> --

> , DAOM

> Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

> http://beyondwellbeing.com <http://beyondwellbeing.com>

>

>

[Guest guest]

On Dec 10, 2007 11:19 AM, Nancy S+13 <nancy wrote:

 

> Now that I think about it, I haven't felt quite so bloated since I've

> been using the Si Ni San. I hadn't really connected the two before

> though. I guess I was thinking of dampness and qi stagnation and two

> separate things instead of seeing the relationship between them.

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

You know, in Chinese medicine, everything is connected.

 

Question: Could liver qi stagnation eventually lead to spleen qi

> deficiency?

>

 

 

 

 

Yes, kind of. It is actually a Liver problem that causes qi stagnation and

the same Liver problem can lead to Spleen qi deficiency. The qi stagnation

can prevent fluids from moving, and this can cause dampness to coagulate. Or

the Liver that gets angry takes it out on the Spleen which causes it to

become weak, and that produces dampness. So, the Spleen qi deficiency or the

stagnant qi can cause dampness, or both. So, the short answer is " yes " and

the longer answer is " sort of " . That formula I mentioned a few days ago,

(Xiao Yao San) is for this situation where the Liver and Spleen are out of

whack.

 

> Since liver qi stagnation can create dampness and the

> spleen doesn't like dampness?

>

 

 

 

 

Yes these are both true statements, but the logic would be better stated

that Liver in an excessive state can cause qi stagnation which prevents

fluids from circulating and that produces dampness, but ALSO the Liver in

state of excess can cause the Spleen to become deficient which produces

dampness. The hard part is recognizing which of these mechanisms is causing

the dampness in a particular patient.

 

I myself look to the pulse to unravel this situation. A wiry pulse

(associated with Liver energy) in the Spleen position suggest " wood

overacting on earth " or " Liver attacking Spleen " . However, when you see a

slippery pulse (associated with Spleen energy) in the Liver position, that

can suggest that the preexisting dampness is cause qi stagnation rather than

the opposite.

 

> I'm trying to understand the root cause

> of my problems (spleen qi deficiency and kidney yang and yin deficiency

> are the main things my acupuncturist mentioned; western diagnoses of

> PCOS, insulin resistance, high cholesterol). I ask about liver qi

> stagnation being the root of it all because years ago I was a heavy

> drinker and also used birth control pills. I was in a very stressful

> relationship at the time too and had a lot of sadness and anger due to

> that. I was wondering if all this could be the root cause of the health

> issues I currently deal with? Maybe my liver got overwhelmed and never

> had a chance to recover?

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A period of stress could be your problem, but it is even more likely that it

was the drinking, the drugs, your genetic pool, it could be a lot of things.

But of course there is always value in working out your emotional issues if

any.

 

There a theory used in criminology that can be applied to medicine. Whatever

one diagnosis can explain the greatest number of signs and symptoms, is

probably the right one. Just from a Western standpoint, your PCOS, insulin

resistance, and high cholesterol can all point back to the PCOS. Once your

hormones are imbalanced, many other internal systems can get whacky.

 

The same logic applies to TCM. Whatever one diagnosis can explain the most,

is likely the correct one to really focus on.

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Al, one problem I have is that I can't take any formulas with licorice

for very long without having problems. My blood pressure goes up. Any

advice aFrom al Tue Dec 11 09:00:52 2007

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I don't know why, but I never saw Kurvenal's post when it came through

originally.

 

--- kurvenal <kurvenal <kurvenal%40ameritech.net>> wrote:

 

> Since you've listed most of these as extracts, I'm

> assuming that you're not

> cooking raw herbs here. Any particular reason for

> not using all raw herbs

> and then decocting them?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No, no reason really, except that we're trying to get this formula into a

dog and have to consider how that's going to happen. If a dog will drink out

of a water dish full of this herb tea, then we're good. However I've always

found that stirring it into food or giving the dog capsules is easier to

work with, that's all.

 

> Is the Shan Ci Gu being

> > given raw vs. decocted?

>

 

 

 

 

This is raw in the formula that I use. Mostly because it isn't available as

an extract powder that I've located. Incidentally, this is a toxic herb that

is actually categorized as " for external use only " . I don't use this herb

too often internally. Gotta be very careful with this herb.

 

>

> > How are you dosing this? Once this formula is made,

> > how much is given per

> > day, (twice/day dosing?) Fortunately, I don't have

> > any need to use this, but

> > will keep in on file, just in case a dog might need

> > it in the future.

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I dose based on weight. The starting point for the herb extracts that I work

with is 5 capsules, three times daily, for a mammal that weighs 150 lbs. If

one weighs 75 lbs, then you start at half the dosage. If one weighs 300

pounds, then you'll double the dosage.

 

But that's only a starting point and probably all you need to know for

treating a dog (based on my limited experience, I am open to vets chiming in

with additional dosing insight). The reason I say that it is a starting

point only is because there are different kinds of pathologies. Some benefit

from say, 10 capsules every 2 hours. This would be things that are really

intense and short-lived ( " acute " ). However 3 capsules, 2 times daily would

be a good dosage for a low-grade long-term problem ( " chronic " ).

 

> BTW, just in case it's of interest, I do cook the

> > raw herbs for one of my

> > dogs, who has epilepsy.

>

 

 

 

 

 

Whatcha using? Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin?

 

> With the combination of gold

> > bead implants and the

> > herbs, he's only had one seizure. (He was still

> > seizuring after the gold

> > bead implants, but since adding in the herbs at the

> > end of July, he's just

> > had one seizure.) And, his very severe separation

> > anxiety is completely gone

> > with the addition of the

[Guest guest]

On Dec 11, 2007 8:56 AM, Nancy S+13 <nancy wrote:

 

> Al, one problem I have is that I can't take any formulas with licorice

> for very long without having problems. My blood pressure goes up. Any

> advice about how I can use them without the blood pressure problem?

>

 

 

 

 

 

There is a licorice extract available that has one component missing. I

think that the component is something like glycirizzac acid. Difficult to

spell, didn't even try. Anyway, this modified " gan cao " (licorice root)

doesn't have that one item in there that has some effect on potassium levels

in the body which lowers urinary output (and thus increasing body fluids and

blood pressure). Might have some of the particulars wrong here, but the

premise is correct. Gan cao can raise blood pressure because something in it

causes the body to withhold fluids. So, you can seek out your formula made

with the deglycirizzed gancao, or you can have it omitted from your formula.

Gan cao has a relaxing effect on the intestines and so it is helpful for

that stagnation in the abdomen as part of that Si Ni San syndrome. Still, if

your practitioner is making formulas his or herself, it can be made without

that one ingredient, no problem.

 

>

> I've used dandelion tea in the past to bring the blood pressure back

> down, but I've wondered if that was a good solution as far as TCM

> principles? Will the Xiao Yao San or Si Ni San still do it's job if I

> take dandelion tea along with it?

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think its okay. Ultimately you'll be the judge of that by following your

blood pressure and symptoms. However I don't see anything horrifyingly wrong

about this combination. Dandelion is somewhat cold in nature, while xiao yao

and si ni san are on the warm side, but overall, it doesn't seem like a big

issue either way.

 

Dandelion is one of those herbs that is seen differently from East and West.

In TCM it is a toxic-heat clearing herb. That mFrom al Tue Dec 11

09:38:31 2007

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