Energetic effects of western medicines

August 18, 2007

Does anybody know if there is an online guide for the energetic

effects, in TCM terms, of western medicines?

Not looking for an individual medicine - more interested in the groups

of medicines as presented in the subsections of the British National

Formulary (where you can find up to date details of individual medicines)

August 19, 2007

Hi Norman,

I believe Stephen Gascoigne's book 'The Prescribed Drug Guide' is the one

you are looking for, see

http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/product/137/211/the_prescribed_drug_guid

e___a_holistic_perspective

Kind regards,

Attilio D'Alberto

Doctor of (Beijing, China)

BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC

Editor

Times

+44 (0) 1189 612512

enquiries

www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Norman

Savigar

18 August 2007 19:04

Chinese Medicine

Energetic effects of western medicines

Does anybody know if there is an online guide for the energetic effects, in

TCM terms, of western medicines?

Not looking for an individual medicine - more interested in the groups of

medicines as presented in the subsections of the British National Formulary

(this provides up to date info about medicines)

Subscribe to the fee online journal for TCM at Times

http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and

acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia

and adjust

accordingly.

Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

necessary.

August 19, 2007

Hi Attilio

Just what I need - thanks.

Norman

Chinese Medicine , " Attilio

D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto wrote:

>

> Hi Norman,

>

> I believe Stephen Gascoigne's book 'The Prescribed Drug Guide' is

the one

> you are looking for, see

>

http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/product/137/211/the_prescribed_drug_guid

> e___a_holistic_perspective

>

> Kind regards,

>

> Attilio D'Alberto

> Doctor of (Beijing, China)

> BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC

> Editor

> Times

> +44 (0) 1189 612512

> enquiries

> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>

> Chinese Medicine

> Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of

Norman

> Savigar

> 18 August 2007 19:04

> Chinese Medicine

> Energetic effects of western medicines

>

> Does anybody know if there is an online guide for the energetic

effects, in

> TCM terms, of western medicines?

>

> Not looking for an individual medicine - more interested in the

groups of

> medicines as presented in the subsections of the British National

Formulary

> (this provides up to date info about medicines)

>

> Subscribe to the fee online journal for TCM at Times

> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>

> Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese

medicine and

> acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia

>

> and

adjust

> accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the

group

> requires prior permission from the author.

>

> Please consider the environment and only print this message if

absolutely

> necessary.

>

August 19, 2007

Hi Norman,

As a Western biochemist and physiologist, I have a slightly different suggestion

from some decades of being asked this question. It might be more useful to see

how TCM protocols for acu-moxa, herbal formulas, tai ji, qi gong and diet change

or regulate biochemical and physiological homeostasis. Once you've determined

in Western science terms how TCM might be affecting the body, then look up the

actions of the drugs of interest. Their actions are described in terms of how

they affect the biochemical and physiological homeostasis. Then you can make

correlations to TCM. It's three or four significant steps of work.

So many people ask the question you are asking in a variety of ways. Besides

asking your question of how WM drugs produce TCM effects, there's questions like

drug and herbal interactions. All of these questions overlook the mapping of

pathways in their context. Sometimes the connection is not just a straight

line. Sometimes you have to travel through a sequence of pathways to make the

connection. You may also have to pioneer some of those pathways yourself.

Respectfully,

Emmanuel Segmen

August 19, 2007

I know that Jeffrey Yuen offered a workshop on this topic, perhaps

there is a copy of the transcript or an audio available. I have tried

to locate this material as well, the pickings, as it were, are slim.

There is not a large population of pharmacologist/LAc's, with the

exception of Dr. Chen, though i haven't found his work to meet my

needs, especially as regards this topic.

Let me know if you find anything,

Tymothy

>

> Does anybody know if there is an online guide for the energetic

> effects, in TCM terms, of western medicines?

>

> Not looking for an individual medicine - more interested in the groups

> of medicines as presented in the subsections of the British National

> Formulary (this provides up to date info about medicines)

>

August 20, 2007

Hi Tymothy

I am going to try Stephen Gascoigne's book, as suggested by Attilio.

Regards

Norman

Chinese Medicine , " miracles28 "

<jellyphish wrote:

>

> I know that Jeffrey Yuen offered a workshop on this topic, perhaps

> there is a copy of the transcript or an audio available. I have tried

> to locate this material as well, the pickings, as it were, are slim.

> There is not a large population of pharmacologist/LAc's, with the

> exception of Dr. Chen, though i haven't found his work to meet my

> needs, especially as regards this topic.

> Let me know if you find anything,

> Tymothy

>

> >

> > Does anybody know if there is an online guide for the energetic

> > effects, in TCM terms, of western medicines?

> >

> > Not looking for an individual medicine - more interested in the groups

> > of medicines as presented in the subsections of the British National

> > Formulary (this provides up to date info about medicines)

> >

>

August 20, 2007

Hi Emmanual

Thanks for your input. I think that I understand what you are

proposing but can you provide an end-to-end example to illustrate your

suggestion?

Regards

Norman

Chinese Medicine , " Emmanuel Segmen "

<susegmen wrote:

>

> Hi Norman,

>

> As a Western biochemist and physiologist, I have a slightly

different suggestion from some decades of being asked this question.

It might be more useful to see how TCM protocols for acu-moxa, herbal

formulas, tai ji, qi gong and diet change or regulate biochemical and

physiological homeostasis. Once you've determined in Western science

terms how TCM might be affecting the body, then look up the actions of

the drugs of interest. Their actions are described in terms of how

they affect the biochemical and physiological homeostasis. Then you

can make correlations to TCM. It's three or four significant steps of

work.

>

> So many people ask the question you are asking in a variety of ways.

Besides asking your question of how WM drugs produce TCM effects,

there's questions like drug and herbal interactions. All of these

questions overlook the mapping of pathways in their context.

Sometimes the connection is not just a straight line. Sometimes you

have to travel through a sequence of pathways to make the connection.

You may also have to pioneer some of those pathways yourself.

>

> Respectfully,

> Emmanuel Segmen

>

August 20, 2007

Hi Norman,

Here's what I just wrote on this topic at another forum. You'll find

two examples. I hope you like them. Respectfully, Emmanuel Segmen

" Hi H.,

As an anatomy/physiology instructor for over two decades, I can assure

you that I use CM orientations to assist with my teaching. Often, but

not always, it has to do with embryological development among other

avenues of physiological reality.

You may have noted that the Kidney as a CM organ includes the sexual

organs and sexual function. In fact the human gonads were a part of

the adrenal cortex at just over a month of gestation. The gonads and

the adrenal cortex had the same cells, histology and the same steroid

hormone output ... they were the same tissue. Then the gonads

descended down through the tissue of the kidney toward the pelvis.

The fact is that the adrenal cortex and the kidney in Western science

terms were collectively the original tissue of the gonads.

Actually I see these references in every single chapter of my year

long (two semester) anatomy and physiology course. I had just

mentioned on another forum that these correlations can be found, but

you need to look with careful eyes and follow several pathways to see

how the connections are made.

Try this one. We just discovered that in all of our mammalian animal

models the stem cells for the pancreatic islet Beta-cells producing

insulin have their origin in the spleen. Think of the how insulin

works in the body. Think of the CM Spleen. Insulin literally

delivers glucose to the cells throughout the body and allows for

increased metabolic activity.

Western science is still young. It may yet develop the poetics of CM.

I have so many examples of correlation that it takes the full nine

months of my course to talk about them. Nine months is an interesting

period of time to help students with their gestation. "

Respectfully,

Emmanuel Segmen

Chinese Medicine , " Norman Savigar "

<n.savigar wrote:

>

> Hi Emmanual

>

> Thanks for your input. I think that I understand what you are

> proposing but can you provide an end-to-end example to illustrate your

> suggestion?

>

> Regards

> Norman

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Emmanuel Segmen "

> <susegmen@> wrote:

> >

> > Hi Norman,

> >

> > As a Western biochemist and physiologist, I have a slightly

> different suggestion from some decades of being asked this question.

> It might be more useful to see how TCM protocols for acu-moxa, herbal

> formulas, tai ji, qi gong and diet change or regulate biochemical and

> physiological homeostasis. Once you've determined in Western science

> terms how TCM might be affecting the body, then look up the actions of

> the drugs of interest. Their actions are described in terms of how

> they affect the biochemical and physiological homeostasis. Then you

> can make correlations to TCM. It's three or four significant steps of

> work.

> >

> > So many people ask the question you are asking in a variety of ways.

> Besides asking your question of how WM drugs produce TCM effects,

> there's questions like drug and herbal interactions. All of these

> questions overlook the mapping of pathways in their context.

> Sometimes the connection is not just a straight line. Sometimes you

> have to travel through a sequence of pathways to make the connection.

> You may also have to pioneer some of those pathways yourself.

> >

> > Respectfully,

> > Emmanuel Segmen

> >

August 20, 2007

Norman,

My example in the previous post was less about pharmaceuticals and

more about creating a bridge between first principles of Western

science and that of Chinese medicine. You can walk some

pharmaceuticals across those bridges yourself ... as few others are

likely to do so.

I think that Tymothy is on to something if I'm correct in assuming

that he is referencing John Chen of Lotus. I worked for an older but

similar man, Dr. Charles Chiang, president of Min Tong Herbs as his

biochemist/marketing person in the early 1990s. I found it enormously

fascinating to share an office with him for a few years. Dr. Chiang

has a doctorate of pharmacology from Univ. of Tokyo specializing in

the affects of Chinese herbs and herbal formulas on the digestive

physiology of dogs. Dr. Chiang and Dr. Chen have their minds residing

in both paradigms of CM and WM.

I think what you'll see, Norman, is that most of the research maps in

that direction ... from CM to WM, not the other way. That is, people

try to map Chinese herbal prescriptions onto the biochemical and

physiological principles of Western science. Why? Economics. They

want to sell Chinese herbal prescriptions to Western countries or to

gain currency in their own country with the powers that ask them to

meet Western scientific principles.

I have a remark that I've articulated now for a long time which is

similar or related to your question. A lot of purchasing agents and

governmental inspectors want to know what those esoteric Chinese herbs

are doing in Western scientific terms .. or what CM is doing in

scientific terms. In fact they demand that I test herbs for Western

scientific outcomes. I reply that I'm fine with that but I'd like

Merck and Pfizer to go first. I'd like them to test statins and other

popular pharmaceuticals for the manner in which they change the pulse

and tongue diagnosis in a large double-blinded sampling of patients.

This is your question in essence.

More to your point, Norman, is creating the bridges between the

paradigms. Then use your own complex problem solving processes to put

the pieces together. No one will do this research in our lifetimes.

But you can go " end to end " as you ask by walking a few items over the

paradigm bridges.

Respectfully,

Emmanuel Segmen

Chinese Medicine , " Norman Savigar "

<n.savigar wrote:

>

> Hi Tymothy

>

> I am going to try Stephen Gascoigne's book, as suggested by Attilio.

>

> Regards

> Norman

>

> Chinese Medicine , " miracles28 "

> <jellyphish@> wrote:

> >

> > I know that Jeffrey Yuen offered a workshop on this topic, perhaps

> > there is a copy of the transcript or an audio available. I have tried

> > to locate this material as well, the pickings, as it were, are slim.

> > There is not a large population of pharmacologist/LAc's, with the

> > exception of Dr. Chen, though i haven't found his work to meet my

> > needs, especially as regards this topic.

> > Let me know if you find anything,

> > Tymothy

> >

> > >

> > > Does anybody know if there is an online guide for the energetic

> > > effects, in TCM terms, of western medicines?

> > >

> > > Not looking for an individual medicine - more interested in the

groups

> > > of medicines as presented in the subsections of the British National

> > > Formulary (this provides up to date info about medicines)

> > >

> >

>

August 21, 2007

Hi Emmanuel,

Thanks for your interesting post. Specially the part about the pancreatic

beta-cells

originating in the spleen! I myself am very interested in bilding bridges

between CM and

WM, for the sake of my own western mind and to be able to speak about WM in

CM-terms

and vice versa. Could you provide me with some links and resources where i can

find more

information (studies, articles..) on subjects that combine,relate,research CM

and WM? For i

am not exactly a pro in searching the net i could need some help. Thanks!

Respectfully,

Rebekka Ettlin

Chinese Medicine , " Emmanuel Segmen "

<susegmen wrote:

>

> Hi Norman,

>

> Here's what I just wrote on this topic at another forum. You'll find

> two examples. I hope you like them. Respectfully, Emmanuel Segmen

>

> " Hi H.,

>

> As an anatomy/physiology instructor for over two decades, I can assure

> you that I use CM orientations to assist with my teaching. Often, but

> not always, it has to do with embryological development among other

> avenues of physiological reality.

>

> You may have noted that the Kidney as a CM organ includes the sexual

> organs and sexual function. In fact the human gonads were a part of

> the adrenal cortex at just over a month of gestation. The gonads and

> the adrenal cortex had the same cells, histology and the same steroid

> hormone output ... they were the same tissue. Then the gonads

> descended down through the tissue of the kidney toward the pelvis.

> The fact is that the adrenal cortex and the kidney in Western science

> terms were collectively the original tissue of the gonads.

>

> Actually I see these references in every single chapter of my year

> long (two semester) anatomy and physiology course. I had just

> mentioned on another forum that these correlations can be found, but

> you need to look with careful eyes and follow several pathways to see

> how the connections are made.

>

> Try this one. We just discovered that in all of our mammalian animal

> models the stem cells for the pancreatic islet Beta-cells producing

> insulin have their origin in the spleen. Think of the how insulin

> works in the body. Think of the CM Spleen. Insulin literally

> delivers glucose to the cells throughout the body and allows for

> increased metabolic activity.

>

> Western science is still young. It may yet develop the poetics of CM.

> I have so many examples of correlation that it takes the full nine

> months of my course to talk about them. Nine months is an interesting

> period of time to help students with their gestation. "

>

> Respectfully,

> Emmanuel Segmen

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Norman Savigar "

> <n.savigar@> wrote:

> >

> > Hi Emmanual

> >

> > Thanks for your input. I think that I understand what you are

> > proposing but can you provide an end-to-end example to illustrate your

> > suggestion?

> >

> > Regards

> > Norman

> >

> > Chinese Medicine , " Emmanuel Segmen "

> > <susegmen@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Hi Norman,

> > >

> > > As a Western biochemist and physiologist, I have a slightly

> > different suggestion from some decades of being asked this question.

> > It might be more useful to see how TCM protocols for acu-moxa, herbal

> > formulas, tai ji, qi gong and diet change or regulate biochemical and

> > physiological homeostasis. Once you've determined in Western science

> > terms how TCM might be affecting the body, then look up the actions of

> > the drugs of interest. Their actions are described in terms of how

> > they affect the biochemical and physiological homeostasis. Then you

> > can make correlations to TCM. It's three or four significant steps of

> > work.

> > >

> > > So many people ask the question you are asking in a variety of ways.

> > Besides asking your question of how WM drugs produce TCM effects,

> > there's questions like drug and herbal interactions. All of these

> > questions overlook the mapping of pathways in their context.

> > Sometimes the connection is not just a straight line. Sometimes you

> > have to travel through a sequence of pathways to make the connection.

> > You may also have to pioneer some of those pathways yourself.

> > >

> > > Respectfully,

> > > Emmanuel Segmen

> > >

August 21, 2007

Emmanuel,

How thoroughly interesting! I would have loved to have taken your course.

Could you elaborate on the beta cells origin? It this in utero

primarily? I have heard Chinese Doctors say that there is a structural

connection between the two organs, but never from an American

physician, it sounds that perhaps ancient anatomy may have had

something? I was taught that the difficulty with embalming made the

differentiation poor, but perhaps we should rethink this.

Regards, Tymothy