Guest guest Posted July 6, 2007 Report Share Posted July 6, 2007 Hi I am new to the group and I am new to TCM too. I am a 42 year old pathologist just starting to study a correspondence course in TCM. I've been watching the posts and reading the archives for some time and I've found the group friendly and the discussions quite useful. So I decided to bring some of my questions to the group, with the hope that you could help me understand some of the sometimes complicated and far fetched theories of TCM My question is about the concept of yin deficiency. As far as I have understood, yin and yang are two opposing aspect of everything. So when we talk of yin deficiency what it really means? Does is mean that since all the nutrients are yin in nature, yin deficiency is equivalent to blood and fluid deficiency? We know that all Zang organs are yin, so does yin deficiency mean a problem in one or more of a Zang organ? Or is it meant by yin deficiency a problem in one of the yin meridians? Or is it an energetics concept meaning that the vital energy (which like any other phenomenon is composed of a yin and a yang aspect) is imbalanced and does its cooling and calming part of job inefficiently? What is actually deficient in the body in yin deficiency conditions? Best regards Saba Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2007 Report Share Posted July 6, 2007 Hello Saba, and welcome to Chinese Traditional Medicine. The basic thing to remember is that Yin cools, calms, and moistens, and Yang heats, activates, and dries. What's deficient in Yin Deficiency is Yin. There is a subclass of Tonic Herbs which are Yin Tonic herbs. Some foods also are Yin Tonic. One of the best ways to understand Yin is to understand the difference between Deficiency Heat and Excess Heat. Excess Heat is due to the person taking or eating too many herbs and foods with a warming effect on the body or to the environment getting too hot or to things like Heat building up because of Qi Stagnation. Deficiency Heat is due to there not being enough Yin to cool the body. You may have noticed that the names of TCM Organs are capitalized. This is because TCM Organs are not equivalent to anatomical organs. TCM Organs are collections of functions. TCM pays far more attention to function (and things that occur together) than to form. The Chinese always have said that the Organ called the Triple Heater (or Burner) has no form). However, it plays an important role in Fluid metabolism and other things in the body. The Yin Organs (solid Organs) are the Kidneys, Liver, Heart, Pericardium (Heart Sack), Spleen, and Lungs. The Yang Organs (Hollow Organs or bowels) are the Bladder, Gall Bladder, Small Intestine, Triple Heater, Stomach, and Large Intestine. A Yin Organ can suffer from Yin Deficiency or Yang Deficiency (in most cases) and so can a Yang Organ. The division of Organs into Yin Organs or Yang Organs is not based on the Deficiencies they can develop but on solidity and function. For example, the Stomach, Lungs, and Heart can suffer from Yin Deficiency or Yang Deficiency. The Stomach can suffer from Yang or Yin Deficiency. The Kidneys are special in that they supply the Yin and Yang to the rest of the body. If a person is Kidney Yang Deficient, s/he is almost sure to be Kidney Yin Deficient though to a lesser degree. And vice versa. " Yin and Yang aspect " usually refers to 5 Elements Theory. For example, the Kidneys are Yin Water Organs, and the Bladder is the Yang Water Organ. The Liver is Yin Wood, and the Gall Bladder is Yang Wood. The Heart is Yin Fire, and the Small Intestine is Yang Fire. Etc. It often is very hard for people who know a great deal about anatomy and physiology to make the transition to TCM Organs and TCM physiology. There is a natural tendency to want to fit the TCM info into something that is familiar, and often it won't fit. I had a great deal of trouble really understand Blood Deficiency because what I know about blood kept getting in the way. In TCM one goes by the TCM definitions. TCM Blood is defined by its functions like nourishing and moistening the tissues. BTW, it is possible for a person's Western blood work to be well within the normal range, but the person suffers from Blood Deficiency. Blood Deficiency doesn't automatically translate to anemia (though sometimes both are present). Some (not all) cases of polycythemia vera have an underlying Root of Blood Deficiency. Something else that is difficult for many Westerners is that the same allopathic medical problem can have different underlying TCM imbalances. What gets analyzed and treated in TCM are TCM imbalances, not allopathic diagnoses. What helps one person with say breathing problems may do nothing for a second and could even make a third worse because the underlying imbalances are different in each of the three cases. Yet, all three may have been diagnosed by their MDs or DOs with the same allopathic diagnosis of " asthma " . (Modern China is moving toward dual diagnosis - listing both the TCM and the allopathic diagnoses. Hope this helps. It takes time to feel comfortable with TCM because it is so different from allopathic medicine. Chinese Traditional Medicine , " sabahoda " <sahomd wrote: > > Hi > I am new to the group and I am new to TCM too. I am a 42 year old > pathologist just starting to study a correspondence course in TCM. > I've been watching the posts and reading the archives for some time > and I've found the group friendly and the discussions quite useful. So > I decided to bring some of my questions to the group, with the hope > that you could help me understand some of the sometimes complicated > and far fetched theories of TCM > My question is about the concept of yin deficiency. As far as I have > understood, yin and yang are two opposing aspect of everything. So > when we talk of yin deficiency what it really means? Does is mean that > since all the nutrients are yin in nature, yin deficiency is > equivalent to blood and fluid deficiency? We know that all Zang organs > are yin, so does yin deficiency mean a problem in one or more of a > Zang organ? Or is it meant by yin deficiency a problem in one of the > yin meridians? Or is it an energetics concept meaning that the vital > energy (which like any other phenomenon is composed of a yin and a > yang aspect) is imbalanced and does its cooling and calming part of > job inefficiently? > What is actually deficient in the body in yin deficiency conditions? > Best regards > Saba > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2007 Report Share Posted July 6, 2007 Hi Thank you for your prompt reply. To answer my question as " What is actually deficient in the body in yin deficiency conditions? " you said: " What's deficient in Yin Deficiency is Yin " May be this is the point of my problem.From a philosophical standpoint,as far as I understand,yin is a concept, as opposed to yang.When we come to medicine and the body and we want to apply the yin-yang principle we say that some organs are yin, some meridians are yin,lower part is yin,ventral side is yin and ...These are the concepts of yin that are applied to human body.Non of these can be deficient of course.So when we talk of yin deficiency, we talk of the deficiency of a factor that calms and cools and moistens.What is this factor? Is it a substance? Is it a fluid? Is it a form of energy? Best regards Saba Chinese Traditional Medicine , " victoria_dragon " <victoria_dragon wrote: > > Hello Saba, and welcome to Chinese Traditional Medicine. > > The basic thing to remember is that Yin cools, calms, and moistens, > and Yang heats, activates, and dries. > > What's deficient in Yin Deficiency is Yin. There is a subclass of > Tonic Herbs which are Yin Tonic herbs. Some foods also are Yin Tonic. > > One of the best ways to understand Yin is to understand the > difference between Deficiency Heat and Excess Heat. Excess Heat is > due to the person taking or eating too many herbs and foods with a > warming effect on the body or to the environment getting too hot or > to things like Heat building up because of Qi Stagnation. Deficiency > Heat is due to there not being enough Yin to cool the body. > > You may have noticed that the names of TCM Organs are capitalized. > This is because TCM Organs are not equivalent to anatomical organs. > TCM Organs are collections of functions. TCM pays far more attention > to function (and things that occur together) than to form. The > Chinese always have said that the Organ called the Triple Heater (or > Burner) has no form). However, it plays an important role in Fluid > metabolism and other things in the body. > > The Yin Organs (solid Organs) are the Kidneys, Liver, Heart, > Pericardium (Heart Sack), Spleen, and Lungs. The Yang Organs (Hollow > Organs or bowels) are the Bladder, Gall Bladder, Small Intestine, > Triple Heater, Stomach, and Large Intestine. A Yin Organ can suffer > from Yin Deficiency or Yang Deficiency (in most cases) and so can a > Yang Organ. The division of Organs into Yin Organs or Yang Organs is > not based on the Deficiencies they can develop but on solidity and > function. For example, the Stomach, Lungs, and Heart can suffer from > Yin Deficiency or Yang Deficiency. The Stomach can suffer from Yang > or Yin Deficiency. > > The Kidneys are special in that they supply the Yin and Yang to the > rest of the body. If a person is Kidney Yang Deficient, s/he is > almost sure to be Kidney Yin Deficient though to a lesser degree. > And vice versa. > > " Yin and Yang aspect " usually refers to 5 Elements Theory. For > example, the Kidneys are Yin Water Organs, and the Bladder is the > Yang Water Organ. The Liver is Yin Wood, and the Gall Bladder is > Yang Wood. The Heart is Yin Fire, and the Small Intestine is Yang > Fire. Etc. > > It often is very hard for people who know a great deal about anatomy > and physiology to make the transition to TCM Organs and TCM > physiology. There is a natural tendency to want to fit the TCM info > into something that is familiar, and often it won't fit. I had a > great deal of trouble really understand Blood Deficiency because what > I know about blood kept getting in the way. In TCM one goes by the > TCM definitions. TCM Blood is defined by its functions like > nourishing and moistening the tissues. BTW, it is possible for a > person's Western blood work to be well within the normal range, but > the person suffers from Blood Deficiency. Blood Deficiency doesn't > automatically translate to anemia (though sometimes both are > present). Some (not all) cases of polycythemia vera have an > underlying Root of Blood Deficiency. > > Something else that is difficult for many Westerners is that the same > allopathic medical problem can have different underlying TCM > imbalances. What gets analyzed and treated in TCM are TCM imbalances, > not allopathic diagnoses. What helps one person with say breathing > problems may do nothing for a second and could even make a third > worse because the underlying imbalances are different in each of the > three cases. Yet, all three may have been diagnosed by their MDs or > DOs with the same allopathic diagnosis of " asthma " . (Modern China is > moving toward dual diagnosis - listing both the TCM and the > allopathic diagnoses. > > Hope this helps. It takes time to feel comfortable with TCM because > it is so different from allopathic medicine. > > Chinese Traditional Medicine , " sabahoda " <sahomd@> wrote: > > > > Hi > > I am new to the group and I am new to TCM too. I am a 42 year old > > pathologist just starting to study a correspondence course in TCM. > > I've been watching the posts and reading the archives for some time > > and I've found the group friendly and the discussions quite useful. > So > > I decided to bring some of my questions to the group, with the hope > > that you could help me understand some of the sometimes complicated > > and far fetched theories of TCM > > My question is about the concept of yin deficiency. As far as I have > > understood, yin and yang are two opposing aspect of everything. So > > when we talk of yin deficiency what it really means? Does is mean > that > > since all the nutrients are yin in nature, yin deficiency is > > equivalent to blood and fluid deficiency? We know that all Zang > organs > > are yin, so does yin deficiency mean a problem in one or more of a > > Zang organ? Or is it meant by yin deficiency a problem in one of the > > yin meridians? Or is it an energetics concept meaning that the vital > > energy (which like any other phenomenon is composed of a yin and a > > yang aspect) is imbalanced and does its cooling and calming part of > > job inefficiently? > > What is actually deficient in the body in yin deficiency conditions? > > Best regards > > Saba > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 2007 Report Share Posted July 7, 2007 To be more exact, it should be worded the top of the body is yang compared to the bottom which is yin when compared to the top. The front of the body is yin compared to the back which is yang compared to the front. " Inward " and downward are yin when compared to outward and upward which are yang when compared inward and downward. Qi is Yang compared to Blood which is Yin compared to Qi. Etc. This usually doesn't get pointed out in Western writings on TCM because looking at things in terms of their relativity to other things is such a fundamental part of Taoist thought and TCM. Yin and Yang can have different meanings - even within TCM. Some Organs are classified as Yin whereas others (the hollow Organs) are classified as Yang. I wouldn't worry about that for now. Later on when you study 5 Elements Theory it will start to make sense. For now just think of the terms Yin and Yang when applied to the classification of Organs as a classification scheme. Right now the important thing is understanding Yin and Yang as they relate to Deficiency. To a person not having enough Yang or enough Yin. Organs most definitely can suffer from Yin or Yang Deficiency or Excess. Some of this is not going to have an allopathic equivalent or even near-equivalent. As you stick with TCM you get more and more comfortable with TCM physiology as a separate system. But this can take some time. A good example of allopathic medicine and TCM not being equivalent is hypothyroidism and Kidney Yang Deficiency. Even though many of the symptoms of the two are the same, they are not the same thing. There have been a lot of cases in the West where the treatment for hypothyroidism appeared to be inadequate even though the blood level of hormones were brought up to the normal range. There was improvment but the fatigue, feelings of being cold, and some other things didn't completely vanish and were still causing problems. When Kidney Yang Deficiency was diagnosed and also treated, these problems disappeared. (The core treatment for Kidney Yang Deficiency are supplementing Yang and warming the Interior (Organs) of the body. Cold damages Yang and the Kidneys.) Even though they share many of the same symptoms and even signs, hypothyroidism and Kidney Yang Deficiency are not the same thing. So " Yang " can't be equated to thyroid hormone. " Yang " also can't be equated to a particular chemical. Over centuries of careful observation the Chinese discovered that certain herbs, animals, and foods would increase Yang in the body. These were classified as " Yang Tonic Herbs " . (Herbs That Warm the Interior is another class of herbs, and both are needed to treat Kidney Yang Deficiency. An example of an Herb That Warms the Interior is dried ginger.) Eventually more and more of TCM will fall into place for you the more you learn. It just takes some time to get the broad overview that allows things to fall into place. Chinese Traditional Medicine , " sabahoda " <sahomd wrote: > > Hi > Thank you for your prompt reply. > To answer my question as " What is actually deficient in the body in > yin deficiency conditions? " you said: " What's deficient in Yin > Deficiency is Yin " > May be this is the point of my problem.From a philosophical > standpoint,as far as I understand,yin is a concept, as opposed to > yang.When we come to medicine and the body and we want to apply the > yin-yang principle we say that some organs are yin, some meridians are > yin,lower part is yin,ventral side is yin and ...These are the > concepts of yin that are applied to human body.Non of these can be > deficient of course.So when we talk of yin deficiency, we talk of the > deficiency of a factor that calms and cools and moistens.What is this > factor? Is it a substance? Is it a fluid? Is it a form of energy? > Best regards > Saba Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 2007 Report Share Posted July 7, 2007 Hi Sabahoda Welcome. I am curious about your correspondence course in TCM. Could you kindly say where you are located and do you mind sharing who and where this course is being offered? Please forgive me, but I had not heard of this school or program and I am curious. th sabahoda <sahomd wrote: Hi I am new to the group and I am new to TCM too. I am a 42 year old pathologist just starting to study a correspondence course in TCM. I've been watching the posts and reading the archives for some time and I've found the group friendly and the discussions quite useful. So I decided to bring some of my questions to the group, with the hope that you could help me understand some of the sometimes complicated and far fetched theories of TCM My question is about the concept of yin deficiency. As far as I have understood, yin and yang are two opposing aspect of everything. So when we talk of yin deficiency what it really means? Does is mean that since all the nutrients are yin in nature, yin deficiency is equivalent to blood and fluid deficiency? We know that all Zang organs are yin, so does yin deficiency mean a problem in one or more of a Zang organ? Or is it meant by yin deficiency a problem in one of the yin meridians? Or is it an energetics concept meaning that the vital energy (which like any other phenomenon is composed of a yin and a yang aspect) is imbalanced and does its cooling and calming part of job inefficiently? What is actually deficient in the body in yin deficiency conditions? Best regards Saba " Thus the sage rules by stilling minds and opening hearts, by filling bellies and strengthening bones... " www.SpiritcareAcupuncture.org Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Autos new Car Finder tool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 2007 Report Share Posted July 7, 2007 In my earliest days of trying to understand the simple yet complex system of TCM a teacher said something to me that has helped along the way allot concerning yin and yang. Something yin is only so in relation to something else and same with the yang aspects. Nothing is always yin and nothing is always yang. Dark is yin and light is yang but if something else is yin it dose not mean that it isgoing to be dark and if something is yang it dose not mean it is going to be light. Yes there are organs that are more yin by nature and more yang by nature but only when you compare them to something else can you know if for the situation if it is in its yin or yang aspect. IF you find a good Yin and Yang theory book you can really dig into it and that might help it make more sense. I know I often hear teachers say yin deficiency in correlation to a yang organ but remember that each organ has both yin and yang qualities even if its over all energy in relation to the body is yin. You can have liver yin or liver yang deficiency or both at the same time. It also is talking about more then just the organ it is talking about the energy within the liver channel so looking at that channel helps to deliver the conclusion of it being the yin or yang aspect of that energy the organ is apart of. A good thing to look into that has also helped me have a greater understanding of yin and yang is the five element theory this adds a bit to the yin and yang theory but it helped me put it all into a more tangible perspective and when I finished the main chunk of learning the five element theory I had a much more solid understanding of the yin and yang theory. hope that helps and sorry if I have restated what others have said along the way of replies Blessings Sam Twyla <twylahoodah wrote: Hi Sabahoda Welcome. I am curious about your correspondence course in TCM. Could you kindly say where you are located and do you mind sharing who and where this course is being offered? Please forgive me, but I had not heard of this school or program and I am curious. th sabahoda <sahomd wrote: Hi I am new to the group and I am new to TCM too. I am a 42 year old pathologist just starting to study a correspondence course in TCM. I've been watching the posts and reading the archives for some time and I've found the group friendly and the discussions quite useful. So I decided to bring some of my questions to the group, with the hope that you could help me understand some of the sometimes complicated and far fetched theories of TCM My question is about the concept of yin deficiency. As far as I have understood, yin and yang are two opposing aspect of everything. So when we talk of yin deficiency what it really means? Does is mean that since all the nutrients are yin in nature, yin deficiency is equivalent to blood and fluid deficiency? We know that all Zang organs are yin, so does yin deficiency mean a problem in one or more of a Zang organ? Or is it meant by yin deficiency a problem in one of the yin meridians? Or is it an energetics concept meaning that the vital energy (which like any other phenomenon is composed of a yin and a yang aspect) is imbalanced and does its cooling and calming part of job inefficiently? What is actually deficient in the body in yin deficiency conditions? Best regards Saba " Thus the sage rules by stilling minds and opening hearts, by filling bellies and strengthening bones... " www.SpiritcareAcupuncture.org Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Autos new Car Finder tool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 2007 Report Share Posted July 7, 2007 Thank you Victoria. I am so sorry if I'm bothering you with my persistence on the question. As far as I get from what you mentioned when we say the body or an organ is yin deficient it means that somehow it is deficient in the " ability " to cool or to calm or to moisten.But what is the nature of this " ability " ? And for Twyla, I live in Iran.For the correspondence course please check www.ontcm.com. If you get the courses, I will be glad to hear your opinion about it. Saba On 7/7/07, Twyla <twylahoodah wrote: > > Hi Sabahoda > > Welcome. I am curious about your correspondence course in TCM. Could you > kindly say where you are located and do you mind sharing who and where this > course is being offered? Please forgive me, but I had not heard of this > school or program and I am curious. > th > > sabahoda <sahomd <sahomd%40gmail.com>> wrote: > Hi > I am new to the group and I am new to TCM too. I am a 42 year old > pathologist just starting to study a correspondence course in TCM. > I've been watching the posts and reading the archives for some time > and I've found the group friendly and the discussions quite useful. So > I decided to bring some of my questions to the group, with the hope > that you could help me understand some of the sometimes complicated > and far fetched theories of TCM > My question is about the concept of yin deficiency. As far as I have > understood, yin and yang are two opposing aspect of everything. So > when we talk of yin deficiency what it really means? Does is mean that > since all the nutrients are yin in nature, yin deficiency is > equivalent to blood and fluid deficiency? We know that all Zang organs > are yin, so does yin deficiency mean a problem in one or more of a > Zang organ? Or is it meant by yin deficiency a problem in one of the > yin meridians? Or is it an energetics concept meaning that the vital > energy (which like any other phenomenon is composed of a yin and a > yang aspect) is imbalanced and does its cooling and calming part of > job inefficiently? > What is actually deficient in the body in yin deficiency conditions? > Best regards > Saba > > " Thus the sage rules by stilling minds and opening hearts, by filling > bellies and strengthening bones... " > > www.SpiritcareAcupuncture.org > > > > Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Autos new Car > Finder tool. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 Chinese Traditional Medicine , " Saba Hoda " <sahomd wrote: > > Thank you Victoria. > I am so sorry if I'm bothering you with my persistence on the question. As > far as I get from what you mentioned when we say the body or an organ is > yin deficient it means that somehow it is deficient in the " ability " to cool > or to calm or to moisten.But what is the nature of this " ability " ? You're not bothering me. I, others, and the list are here to help people understand. When an Organ is Yin Deficient, it means that the Organ lacks enough Yin to sufficiently cool, calm, and/or moisten itself AND perform certain functions that can impact various parts of the body. For example, Liver Yin Deficiency can lead to Liver Yang Rising because there is not enough Yin to contain the Yang. One of the main functions of the Liver is the orderly and smooth flow of Qi throughout the body. When Liver Yang Rising develops, the Yang rushes upward to the head causing symptoms like headaches (not the only possible cause of headaches by any means), feelings of Heat in the head, etc. It's helpful to keep in mind that TCM Organs are not equivalent to anatomical organs but collections of functions. For example, the functions of the adrenal glands fall under the functions of the Kidneys in TCM. Many of the functions of the TCM Spleen are functions of the pancreas. Some Western TCM writers even refer to the Spleen as the Spleen-Pancreas (though this practice is declining). TCM is a way of organizing info about the body. It's an organization system that is very different from Western anatomy and physiology. The Kidneys are said " to open into the ears " . (Has to do with the way meridians run.) You will be surprised just how often problems with the ears and hearing will occur in people with some kind of Kidney imbalance. Also, the health of the bones and teeth will reflect the health of the Kidneys. Genetic disorders are Kidney Jing disorders. The Liver " opens into the eyes " . Again, a surprising correlation between the eyes and the Liver. Heat in the Liver often will manifest with red (and dry) eyes. Rule in or rule out problems with the Kidneys anytime there are problems with knees and/or back (especially the lower back). Knee and back problems are a general indication of the possibility of some kind of Kidney imbalance. Pain, soreness, and weakness in the knees and/or back won't tell you what the specific Kidney imbalance is, just that there may be one. (Knee and back problems can be caused by things other than Kidney imbalance, but you'll be surprised at how often the two occur together.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 Hi there, Please may I ask - when you say about ruling in or out a certain state - how does one do that - can you provide any further clues as to how this is done? I have seen this highlighted often in this forum but have not maanged to understand how it is really achieved. Any pointers will be greatly appreciated. Jinat p.s - I am not Iraninan - but I have been told of the strikingly common formality of Iranians to use the overly polite tone. It does not really mean that a person is actually sorry for the bother, it is just their way of being polite. But I stand to be corrected on this! Chinese Traditional Medicine , " victoria_dragon " <victoria_dragon wrote: > > Chinese Traditional Medicine , " Saba Hoda " <sahomd@> wrote: > > > > Thank you Victoria. > > I am so sorry if I'm bothering you with my persistence on the > question. As > > far as I get from what you mentioned when we say the body or an > organ is > > yin deficient it means that somehow it is deficient in > the " ability " to cool > > or to calm or to moisten.But what is the nature of this " ability " ? > > You're not bothering me. I, others, and the list are here to help > people understand. > > When an Organ is Yin Deficient, it means that the Organ lacks enough > Yin to sufficiently cool, calm, and/or moisten itself AND perform > certain functions that can impact various parts of the body. > > For example, Liver Yin Deficiency can lead to Liver Yang Rising > because there is not enough Yin to contain the Yang. One of the main > functions of the Liver is the orderly and smooth flow of Qi > throughout the body. When Liver Yang Rising develops, the Yang > rushes upward to the head causing symptoms like headaches (not the > only possible cause of headaches by any means), feelings of Heat in > the head, etc. > > It's helpful to keep in mind that TCM Organs are not equivalent to > anatomical organs but collections of functions. For example, the > functions of the adrenal glands fall under the functions of the > Kidneys in TCM. Many of the functions of the TCM Spleen are functions > of the pancreas. Some Western TCM writers even refer to the Spleen > as the Spleen-Pancreas (though this practice is declining). TCM is a > way of organizing info about the body. It's an organization system > that is very different from Western anatomy and physiology. > > The Kidneys are said " to open into the ears " . (Has to do with the way > meridians run.) You will be surprised just how often problems with > the ears and hearing will occur in people with some kind of Kidney > imbalance. Also, the health of the bones and teeth will reflect the > health of the Kidneys. Genetic disorders are Kidney Jing disorders. > > The Liver " opens into the eyes " . Again, a surprising correlation > between the eyes and the Liver. Heat in the Liver often will manifest > with red (and dry) eyes. > > Rule in or rule out problems with the Kidneys anytime there are > problems with knees and/or back (especially the lower back). Knee and > back problems are a general indication of the possibility of some > kind of Kidney imbalance. Pain, soreness, and weakness in the knees > and/or back won't tell you what the specific Kidney imbalance is, > just that there may be one. (Knee and back problems can be caused by > things other than Kidney imbalance, but you'll be surprised at how > often the two occur together.) > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 Hi Saba, I just finished 4 years of TCM training in California and I understand your questions. I remember toward the end of school I visited a graduated upperclassman at his newly opened clinic--a beautiful clinic, yet another expression of such an outstanding person/practitioner. I asked him whether, in his new found real world experience, TCM really worked on a daily basis? Happily he assured me yes. I asked if he could name the one or two most important secrets to successful treatment that he had discovered (eg. needle technique, loose herbs vs. granules vs. patents, diet, channel theory, psychology of healing, etc). He smiled and said, " just do what you've been taught; it's that simple and it works. " As I drove home and for the next few months I thought long and hard about what he said and a new understanding began to blossom. I began to realize that Chinese medicine is really just metaphor. Chinese medicine is a thousand-year-plus organization of experientially-based healing correlations. (Say that again...really.) Of course the correlations needed to be understandable (in the relatively uneducated times), so the ancient sages borrowed from the simple Taoist nature-based cosmology to organize them. I mean 8 Principles, Five Elements, Three Treasures; compare that with Modern Biomedicine. How complicated the latter! But here's the kicker, basic statistics reminds us that correlations do not imply causality. And I think that is where we confuse ourselves. We search for causality within TCM theory, when really the causality lies within the interactions of the body, needles and herbs. The TCM theory is a lot like the finger pointing at the moon. Just a finger, just words (although good words!). So my plan, as I embark in my new work, is to try to see through those words, and then do what the Ancients say. At least until I really begin to understand... Study hard! Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 TCM by the numbers! LOL skyheights wrote: > > Hi Saba, > > I just finished 4 years of TCM training in California and I understand > your questions. I remember toward the end of school I visited a > graduated upperclassman at his newly opened clinic--a beautiful > clinic, yet another expression of such an outstanding > person/practitioner. I asked him whether, in his new found real world > experience, TCM really worked on a daily basis? Happily he assured me > yes. I asked if he could name the one or two most important secrets to > successful treatment that he had discovered (eg. needle technique, > loose herbs vs. granules vs. patents, diet, channel theory, psychology > of healing, etc). He smiled and said, " just do what you've been > taught; it's that simple and it works. " As I drove home and for the > next few months I thought long and hard about what he said and a new > understanding began to blossom. > > I began to realize that Chinese medicine is really just metaphor. > Chinese medicine is a thousand-year-plus organization of > experientially-based healing correlations. (Say that again...really.) > Of course the correlations needed to be understandable (in the > relatively uneducated times), so the ancient sages borrowed from the > simple Taoist nature-based cosmology to organize them. I mean 8 > Principles, Five Elements, Three Treasures; compare that with Modern > Biomedicine. How complicated the latter! > > But here's the kicker, basic statistics reminds us that correlations > do not imply causality. And I think that is where we confuse > ourselves. We search for causality within TCM theory, when really the > causality lies within the interactions of the body, needles and herbs. > The TCM theory is a lot like the finger pointing at the moon. Just a > finger, just words (although good words!). So my plan, as I embark in > my new work, is to try to see through those words, and then do what > the Ancients say. At least until I really begin to understand... > > Study hard! > > Matt > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 Hello Jinat, and welcome to Chinese Traditional Medicine. One symptom or sign (pulse, tongue, things the healer can see or feel) rarely will be the basis of a diagnosis. Let's take the example of pain in the knees or lower back. Whenever many TCM healers hear that there is pain in the knees and/or lower back, it raises the possibility of Kidney imbalance because this symptom is so common to Kidney imbalance. BUT, it's not the only possible cause of knee or lower back pain. For example, the person may have been in an accident. If the person is a female, the back pain may be due to wearing very high heels. Or the person may have weak adominal muscles because of lack of exercise. Etc. There are any number of reasons why a person could have lower back pain besides Kidney imbalance. BUT if there are other signs and symptoms of Kidney imbalance present, this suggests that the problem is coming from Kidney imbalance (or made worse by Kidney imbalance). For example, the person complains of fatigue, of being cold a lot and having trouble warming up. The person also reports sometimes producing large amounts of colorless urine, and liquids tending to go straight through him or her. In addition the person says that s/he doesn't feel thirsty very often, and when s/he does drink, s/he prefers hot liquids like soup. There has been a loss of libido. The complexion is shiny (bright) pale. The tongue tissue is pale, swollen, and wet. The pulse is deep but weak. All these things point to the imbalance Kidney Yang Deficiency. All of the possible symptoms and signs of Kidney Yang Deficiency need not be present to indicate Kidney Yang Deficiency. But the more that are present, the more sure the healer is of the diagnosis. Also, the more symptoms and signs that are present, the longer the person probably has had the imbalance and the more severe it's gotten. Ruling something in or out refers to recognizing if other symptoms and signs support the specific TCM diagnosis. One symptom or sign rarely makes for a correct TCM diagnosis. You learn to recognize patterns of symptoms and signs. This can be difficult at first until you get more familiar with the various TCM imbalances. Chinese Traditional Medicine , " icosage " <icosage wrote: > > Hi there, > > Please may I ask - when you say about ruling in or out a certain > state - how does one do that - can you provide any further clues as > to how this is done? > > I have seen this highlighted often in this forum but have not maanged > to understand how it is really achieved. > > Any pointers will be greatly appreciated. > > > Jinat > > p.s - > I am not Iraninan - but I have been told of the strikingly common > formality of Iranians to use the overly polite tone. It does not > really mean that a person is actually sorry for the bother, it is > just their way of being polite. But I stand to be corrected on this! > > > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine , " victoria_dragon " > <victoria_dragon@> wrote: > > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine , " Saba Hoda " <sahomd@> wrote: > > > > > > Thank you Victoria. > > > I am so sorry if I'm bothering you with my persistence on the > > question. As > > > far as I get from what you mentioned when we say the body or an > > organ is > > > yin deficient it means that somehow it is deficient in > > the " ability " to cool > > > or to calm or to moisten.But what is the nature of this " ability " ? > > > > You're not bothering me. I, others, and the list are here to help > > people understand. > > > > When an Organ is Yin Deficient, it means that the Organ lacks > enough > > Yin to sufficiently cool, calm, and/or moisten itself AND perform > > certain functions that can impact various parts of the body. > > > > For example, Liver Yin Deficiency can lead to Liver Yang Rising > > because there is not enough Yin to contain the Yang. One of the > main > > functions of the Liver is the orderly and smooth flow of Qi > > throughout the body. When Liver Yang Rising develops, the Yang > > rushes upward to the head causing symptoms like headaches (not the > > only possible cause of headaches by any means), feelings of Heat in > > the head, etc. > > > > It's helpful to keep in mind that TCM Organs are not equivalent to > > anatomical organs but collections of functions. For example, the > > functions of the adrenal glands fall under the functions of the > > Kidneys in TCM. Many of the functions of the TCM Spleen are > functions > > of the pancreas. Some Western TCM writers even refer to the Spleen > > as the Spleen-Pancreas (though this practice is declining). TCM is > a > > way of organizing info about the body. It's an organization system > > that is very different from Western anatomy and physiology. > > > > The Kidneys are said " to open into the ears " . (Has to do with the > way > > meridians run.) You will be surprised just how often problems with > > the ears and hearing will occur in people with some kind of Kidney > > imbalance. Also, the health of the bones and teeth will reflect the > > health of the Kidneys. Genetic disorders are Kidney Jing disorders. > > > > The Liver " opens into the eyes " . Again, a surprising correlation > > between the eyes and the Liver. Heat in the Liver often will > manifest > > with red (and dry) eyes. > > > > Rule in or rule out problems with the Kidneys anytime there are > > problems with knees and/or back (especially the lower back). Knee > and > > back problems are a general indication of the possibility of some > > kind of Kidney imbalance. Pain, soreness, and weakness in the > knees > > and/or back won't tell you what the specific Kidney imbalance is, > > just that there may be one. (Knee and back problems can be caused > by > > things other than Kidney imbalance, but you'll be surprised at how > > often the two occur together.) > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2007 Report Share Posted July 10, 2007 Hello everybody and thank you for your comments.Things seem more clarified to me now Saba On 7/9/07, victoria_dragon <victoria_dragon wrote: > > Hello Jinat, and welcome to Chinese Traditional Medicine. > > One symptom or sign (pulse, tongue, things the healer can see or > feel) rarely will be the basis of a diagnosis. Let's take the example > of pain in the knees or lower back. > > Whenever many TCM healers hear that there is pain in the knees and/or > lower back, it raises the possibility of Kidney imbalance because > this symptom is so common to Kidney imbalance. BUT, it's not the > only possible cause of knee or lower back pain. For example, the > person may have been in an accident. If the person is a female, the > back pain may be due to wearing very high heels. Or the person may > have weak adominal muscles because of lack of exercise. Etc. There > are any number of reasons why a person could have lower back pain > besides Kidney imbalance. > > BUT if there are other signs and symptoms of Kidney imbalance > present, this suggests that the problem is coming from Kidney > imbalance (or made worse by Kidney imbalance). For example, the > person complains of fatigue, of being cold a lot and having trouble > warming up. The person also reports sometimes producing large amounts > of colorless urine, and liquids tending to go straight through him or > her. In addition the person says that s/he doesn't feel thirsty very > often, and when s/he does drink, s/he prefers hot liquids like soup. > There has been a loss of libido. The complexion is shiny (bright) > pale. The tongue tissue is pale, swollen, and wet. The pulse is > deep but weak. All these things point to the imbalance Kidney Yang > Deficiency. > > All of the possible symptoms and signs of Kidney Yang Deficiency need > not be present to indicate Kidney Yang Deficiency. But the more that > are present, the more sure the healer is of the diagnosis. Also, the > more symptoms and signs that are present, the longer the person > probably has had the imbalance and the more severe it's gotten. > > Ruling something in or out refers to recognizing if other symptoms > and signs support the specific TCM diagnosis. One symptom or sign > rarely makes for a correct TCM diagnosis. > > You learn to recognize patterns of symptoms and signs. This can be > difficult at first until you get more familiar with the various TCM > imbalances. > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40>, > " icosage " <icosage wrote: > > > > Hi there, > > > > Please may I ask - when you say about ruling in or out a certain > > state - how does one do that - can you provide any further clues as > > to how this is done? > > > > I have seen this highlighted often in this forum but have not > maanged > > to understand how it is really achieved. > > > > Any pointers will be greatly appreciated. > > > > > > Jinat > > > > p.s - > > I am not Iraninan - but I have been told of the strikingly common > > formality of Iranians to use the overly polite tone. It does not > > really mean that a person is actually sorry for the bother, it is > > just their way of being polite. But I stand to be corrected on this! > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40>, > " victoria_dragon " > > <victoria_dragon@> wrote: > > > > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40>, > " Saba Hoda " <sahomd@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > Thank you Victoria. > > > > I am so sorry if I'm bothering you with my persistence on the > > > question. As > > > > far as I get from what you mentioned when we say the body or > an > > > organ is > > > > yin deficient it means that somehow it is deficient in > > > the " ability " to cool > > > > or to calm or to moisten.But what is the nature of > this " ability " ? > > > > > > You're not bothering me. I, others, and the list are here to > help > > > people understand. > > > > > > When an Organ is Yin Deficient, it means that the Organ lacks > > enough > > > Yin to sufficiently cool, calm, and/or moisten itself AND perform > > > certain functions that can impact various parts of the body. > > > > > > For example, Liver Yin Deficiency can lead to Liver Yang Rising > > > because there is not enough Yin to contain the Yang. One of the > > main > > > functions of the Liver is the orderly and smooth flow of Qi > > > throughout the body. When Liver Yang Rising develops, the Yang > > > rushes upward to the head causing symptoms like headaches (not > the > > > only possible cause of headaches by any means), feelings of Heat > in > > > the head, etc. > > > > > > It's helpful to keep in mind that TCM Organs are not equivalent > to > > > anatomical organs but collections of functions. For example, the > > > functions of the adrenal glands fall under the functions of the > > > Kidneys in TCM. Many of the functions of the TCM Spleen are > > functions > > > of the pancreas. Some Western TCM writers even refer to the > Spleen > > > as the Spleen-Pancreas (though this practice is declining). TCM > is > > a > > > way of organizing info about the body. It's an organization > system > > > that is very different from Western anatomy and physiology. > > > > > > The Kidneys are said " to open into the ears " . (Has to do with the > > way > > > meridians run.) You will be surprised just how often problems > with > > > the ears and hearing will occur in people with some kind of > Kidney > > > imbalance. Also, the health of the bones and teeth will reflect > the > > > health of the Kidneys. Genetic disorders are Kidney Jing > disorders. > > > > > > The Liver " opens into the eyes " . Again, a surprising correlation > > > between the eyes and the Liver. Heat in the Liver often will > > manifest > > > with red (and dry) eyes. > > > > > > Rule in or rule out problems with the Kidneys anytime there are > > > problems with knees and/or back (especially the lower back). Knee > > and > > > back problems are a general indication of the possibility of some > > > kind of Kidney imbalance. Pain, soreness, and weakness in the > > knees > > > and/or back won't tell you what the specific Kidney imbalance is, > > > just that there may be one. (Knee and back problems can be > caused > > by > > > things other than Kidney imbalance, but you'll be surprised at > how > > > often the two occur together.) > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2007 Report Share Posted July 12, 2007 Hi there, Thankyou so much Victoria for your detailed response.I am so glad to be part of this community of people so willing to so easily share their wisdom. Yes it does make more sense now - so bascially one would need to see where the majority of the symptoms reside within and aswell check to see if there are other residing (exterior) factors. Just a few more questions - if you don't mind: If someone has symptoms of heat in their body - is is still appropriate to apply hot/cold tubbing procedures or packing on imbalanced parts of their body (i.e packing with a a hot water bottle)?? When a person is prescribed herbs/nutrition - is it ususally up to the individual to find out for how long they should continue taking them - until their symptoms disappear - or does teh parctitioner have a more definite guide? Would it be true to say that in the traditional sense when nutritional food/herbs are precribed - it means that the food essentailly covers the vitamins - that an allopathic doctor/nutritionist may have otherwise prescribed?? Thankyou very much Chinese Traditional Medicine , " victoria_dragon " <victoria_dragon wrote: > > Hello Jinat, and welcome to Chinese Traditional Medicine. > > One symptom or sign (pulse, tongue, things the healer can see or > feel) rarely will be the basis of a diagnosis. Let's take the example > of pain in the knees or lower back. > > Whenever many TCM healers hear that there is pain in the knees and/or > lower back, it raises the possibility of Kidney imbalance because > this symptom is so common to Kidney imbalance. BUT, it's not the > only possible cause of knee or lower back pain. For example, the > person may have been in an accident. If the person is a female, the > back pain may be due to wearing very high heels. Or the person may > have weak adominal muscles because of lack of exercise. Etc. There > are any number of reasons why a person could have lower back pain > besides Kidney imbalance. > > BUT if there are other signs and symptoms of Kidney imbalance > present, this suggests that the problem is coming from Kidney > imbalance (or made worse by Kidney imbalance). For example, the > person complains of fatigue, of being cold a lot and having trouble > warming up. The person also reports sometimes producing large amounts > of colorless urine, and liquids tending to go straight through him or > her. In addition the person says that s/he doesn't feel thirsty very > often, and when s/he does drink, s/he prefers hot liquids like soup. > There has been a loss of libido. The complexion is shiny (bright) > pale. The tongue tissue is pale, swollen, and wet. The pulse is > deep but weak. All these things point to the imbalance Kidney Yang > Deficiency. > > All of the possible symptoms and signs of Kidney Yang Deficiency need > not be present to indicate Kidney Yang Deficiency. But the more that > are present, the more sure the healer is of the diagnosis. Also, the > more symptoms and signs that are present, the longer the person > probably has had the imbalance and the more severe it's gotten. > > Ruling something in or out refers to recognizing if other symptoms > and signs support the specific TCM diagnosis. One symptom or sign > rarely makes for a correct TCM diagnosis. > > You learn to recognize patterns of symptoms and signs. This can be > difficult at first until you get more familiar with the various TCM > imbalances. > > Chinese Traditional Medicine , " icosage " <icosage@> wrote: > > > > Hi there, > > > > Please may I ask - when you say about ruling in or out a certain > > state - how does one do that - can you provide any further clues as > > to how this is done? > > > > I have seen this highlighted often in this forum but have not > maanged > > to understand how it is really achieved. > > > > Any pointers will be greatly appreciated. > > > > > > Jinat > > > > p.s - > > I am not Iraninan - but I have been told of the strikingly common > > formality of Iranians to use the overly polite tone. It does not > > really mean that a person is actually sorry for the bother, it is > > just their way of being polite. But I stand to be corrected on this! > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine , " victoria_dragon " > > <victoria_dragon@> wrote: > > > > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine , " Saba Hoda " <sahomd@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > Thank you Victoria. > > > > I am so sorry if I'm bothering you with my persistence on the > > > question. As > > > > far as I get from what you mentioned when we say the body or > an > > > organ is > > > > yin deficient it means that somehow it is deficient in > > > the " ability " to cool > > > > or to calm or to moisten.But what is the nature of > this " ability " ? > > > > > > You're not bothering me. I, others, and the list are here to > help > > > people understand. > > > > > > When an Organ is Yin Deficient, it means that the Organ lacks > > enough > > > Yin to sufficiently cool, calm, and/or moisten itself AND perform > > > certain functions that can impact various parts of the body. > > > > > > For example, Liver Yin Deficiency can lead to Liver Yang Rising > > > because there is not enough Yin to contain the Yang. One of the > > main > > > functions of the Liver is the orderly and smooth flow of Qi > > > throughout the body. When Liver Yang Rising develops, the Yang > > > rushes upward to the head causing symptoms like headaches (not > the > > > only possible cause of headaches by any means), feelings of Heat > in > > > the head, etc. > > > > > > It's helpful to keep in mind that TCM Organs are not equivalent > to > > > anatomical organs but collections of functions. For example, the > > > functions of the adrenal glands fall under the functions of the > > > Kidneys in TCM. Many of the functions of the TCM Spleen are > > functions > > > of the pancreas. Some Western TCM writers even refer to the > Spleen > > > as the Spleen-Pancreas (though this practice is declining). TCM > is > > a > > > way of organizing info about the body. It's an organization > system > > > that is very different from Western anatomy and physiology. > > > > > > The Kidneys are said " to open into the ears " . (Has to do with the > > way > > > meridians run.) You will be surprised just how often problems > with > > > the ears and hearing will occur in people with some kind of > Kidney > > > imbalance. Also, the health of the bones and teeth will reflect > the > > > health of the Kidneys. Genetic disorders are Kidney Jing > disorders. > > > > > > The Liver " opens into the eyes " . Again, a surprising correlation > > > between the eyes and the Liver. Heat in the Liver often will > > manifest > > > with red (and dry) eyes. > > > > > > Rule in or rule out problems with the Kidneys anytime there are > > > problems with knees and/or back (especially the lower back). Knee > > and > > > back problems are a general indication of the possibility of some > > > kind of Kidney imbalance. Pain, soreness, and weakness in the > > knees > > > and/or back won't tell you what the specific Kidney imbalance is, > > > just that there may be one. (Knee and back problems can be > caused > > by > > > things other than Kidney imbalance, but you'll be surprised at > how > > > often the two occur together.) > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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