Tony & Marc Graviola and Sutherlandia OPC

[Guest guest]

Wow I really don't know what to think about paw paw now.

I have researched it, and all articles including one written by our own

Tony Isaacs

called " Paw Paw Pulls the plug on cancer " indicates that it kills cancer

cells.

 

Yet your article below says it may kill it or cause it.

How am I to know if this will help or harm???

I need answers!

Currently taking Paw Paw cell-Reg, Not on OPC,

Rachel

 

 

 

Marc Swanepoel - PhD wrote:

>

>

> Hi Cheryl,

>

> Graviola and oleander work on two different and probably opposing

> principles. Graviola, Paw-paw extract, and plants containing

> acetogenins (as well as products like Cantron, Protocell and the

> chemo drug Tarceva), work on the principle that if an energy drop

> (reduced ATP) can be induced in cells, especially fast growing cells

> like tumor cells, then the process of 'apoptosis' or cell suicide will

> take place. Oleander and many other treatments, on the other hand,

> work on the opposing principle that it is easier to restore proper

> mitochondrial function by increasing cellular glutathione

> and improving other cellular functions. One can thus, for example, not

> use Graviola and NAC (which helps to synthesize glutathione) at the

> same time, neither is it advisable to use Graviola and oleander at the

> same time.

>

> I have written something on paw-paw and Graviola before, and I have

> included it again hereunder.

>

> Marc Swanepoel

>

> All cells require energy in the form of Adenosine Triphosphate (ATP).

> This substance cannot be stored in the cells and at any stage we have

> enough to last for about 3 to 5 seconds. It is thus a continuous

> process. A few billion years ago, before there was oxygen in the

> atmosphere, primitive cells (eukaryotes) evolved the process of

> producing ATP energy without the use of oxygen by a process of

> glycolysis. Later on in the evolutionary process, when oxygen became

> part of the atmosphere, certain types of bacteria evolved a much more

> efficient way of producing ATP by utilizing oxygen through a process

> known as oxidative phosphorylation (OXPHOS). This new process was

> roughly 20 times more efficient than the glycolysis process. Roughly

> two billion years ago, these bacteria and the original eukaryotes

> fused into a symbiotically functioning and more complex cell system.

> Researchers now acknowledge that the bacterial component of cells is

> the cellular mitochondria. All cells, with the exclusion of red blood

> cells, can have thousands of the mitochondria. These new " symbionts "

> can switch between the two systems of ATP production, depending on the

> demands of the cells. During the fetal stage and repair of cell

> damage, it switches to the ATP production from glucose in the

> cytoplasm. During the cell differentiation stage, it switches to the

> OXPHOS system of oxidative ATP production in the cell mitochondria.

> The switching system itself is controlled by an intricate signaling

> system that depends on the permeability of the mitochondrial membrane

> and its influence on the Ca 2+ cycle, the electrical charge across the

> mitochondrial membrane and other factors. All these factors, in turn,

> are modulated by the so-called thiol pool of which glutathione is the

> most important component.

>

> When body cells are under oxidative or nitrosative stresses caused by

> environmental factors and/or life style, the thiol pool normally gets

> depleted and, with it, the ability of the mitochondria to produce ATP

> through the OXPHOS system. As a defensive measure, the mitochondrial

> switch puts the cells into the more primitive way of survival by

> reverting to the much less efficient enzymatic production of ATP in

> the cytoplasm. If the aforementioned stresses are chronic, the switch

> remains in this position and we call the condition " cancer " -

> identified by the undifferentiated division of cells.

>

> If the cut-off of ATP production by the OXPHOS system is sudden, the

> cells will die and the process is known as 'necrosis' or sudden cell

> death. If it is more gradual, the affected cells can 'commit suicide',

> a process know as 'apoptosis'. Treatments like the acetogenins in

> Paw-Paw extract, Graviola and similar plants, (as well as Cantron and

> Protocel) have the effect of reducing the ATP in all cells and it is

> then hoped that the described 'apoptosis' of cancer cells will take

> place. Because of the fact that the ATP production of ALL cells is

> reduced, one can feel very tired when using these supplements.

>

> Another very important fact is that the apoptosis of cancer cells will

> only take place if the mitochondrial membrane is still permeable and

> the CA 2+ cycle is still working. In all advanced cancers, this

> permeability is blocked as part of the defense mechanism of cells and

> apoptosis CANNOT take place, however much Paw-Paw extract,

> Graviola, or any ATP reducing supplement one takes. One can thus see

> that the treatment will work in some cases where the cancer is at a

> stage where the mitochondrial switch is still fluctuating between the

> two methods of ATP production. This 'window of opportunity' is

> relatively short and when metastases have appeared, it is normally a

> sign that the mitochondrial membranes are blocked. The only

> alternative is then to reactivate the mitochondrial switch by getting

> rid of the oxidative and nitrosative stresses, and by topping up the

> depleted glutathione. Nothing else will work.

>

>

>

> The danger in using substances that will reduce ATP and/or glutathione

> is twofold. As the reduction of ATP and/or glutathione is not

> restricted to cancer cells it can (a) result in cells that are not yet

> cancerous becoming cancerous and (b) result in fungal and bacterial

> overgrowth that can be dangerous for weakened patients. If one looks

> up the known side-effects of Tarceva, one will see that they are

> all associated with a reduction in energy and the inability of cells

> to defend themselves against internal pathogens (fatigue, rash,

> infection, mouth sores, etc).

>

>

>

> -

> ** Cheryl <cheryl.s.campbell

> *To:* oleander soup

> <oleander soup >

> *Sent:* Friday, October 30, 2009 12:36 PM

> *Subject:* Cheryl Re: Is anyone here using Graviola?

>

>

>

> The scans weren't great. The brain tumors are shrinking or stable

> for now but the lung cancer in in my right lung is growing again

> and there is a spot on my left lung. I've been on Graviola since

> March but only started Oleander on Aug. 17th and my scans were on

> Oct. 3rd. Still hoping something kicks in and buys me a remission

> of sorts.

> thanks for asking Rachel.

> Cheryl

>

> oleander soup

> <oleander soup%40>, Lady Pilgrim

> <Ladypilgrim wrote:

> >

> > Hi Cheryl

> > Well how did it go?

> > I'm hoping you have some good news to share with us.

> >

> > Thanks,

> > Rachel

> >

> >

> > Cheryl wrote:

> > > I take 30 Graviola drops three times a day in a drink and seem

> to tolerate it very well. My next scans are on Oct. 7th so I have

> no idea if they are helping yet but I'll keep you posted.

> > > Cheryl

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

From my reading of the research, paw-paw, Graviola, Tarceva and many other substances can help with cancer in the beginning stages by promoting the process of apoptosis. They work because they reduce the production of ATP which results, so the theory goes, in the death of fast growing cells that require a lot of ATP - preferably cancer cells. However, the alternative theory of cancer, that it is a protection mechanism for cells that are under certain stresses, holds that this apoptosis period is relatively short and that the cancer cells have their own ways of overcoming it. Apoptosis requires that the mitochondrial membranes remain permeable to Calcium ions. In cancer cells, these membranes get locked very quickly, especially after the cancer has metastasized. Oleander and NAC, unlike paw-paw, Graviola, etc, act to normalize the levels of glutathione in the body. This, in turn, unlocks the mitochondrial membranes and reverts the mitochondria to normalcy. The assumption is, of course, that the stresses which caused the problems in the first place, are also addressed. Thus the reason for the protocols.

 

In summary, my personal take on paw-paw, Graviola, etc is that they are ok for cancer in the early stages but that they should then not be taken with NAC, whey protein, or anything that promotes the levels of glutathione or ATP production in the body. Once cancer has spread, or in the case of very advanced cancer, my opinion is that paw-paw, Graviola and other apoptosis promoting substances based on reduced ATP production, will simply not work.

 

Marc Swanepoel

 

 

-

Lady Pilgrim

oleander soup

Friday, October 30, 2009 7:05 PM

Re: Tony & Marc Graviola and Sutherlandia OPC

Wow I really don't know what to think about paw paw now.I have researched it, and all articles including one written by our own Tony Isaacscalled "Paw Paw Pulls the plug on cancer" indicates that it kills cancer cells.Yet your article below says it may kill it or cause it.How am I to know if this will help or harm???I need answers!Currently taking Paw Paw cell-Reg, Not on OPC,RachelMarc Swanepoel - PhD wrote:>>> Hi Cheryl,> > Graviola and oleander work on two different and probably opposing > principles. Graviola, Paw-paw extract, and plants containing > acetogenins (as well as products like Cantron, Protocell and the > chemo drug Tarceva), work on the principle that if an energy drop > (reduced ATP) can be induced in cells, especially fast growing cells > like tumor cells, then the process of 'apoptosis' or cell suicide will > take place. Oleander and many other treatments, on the other hand, > work on the opposing principle that it is easier to restore proper > mitochondrial function by increasing cellular glutathione > and improving other cellular functions. One can thus, for example, not > use Graviola and NAC (which helps to synthesize glutathione) at the > same time, neither is it advisable to use Graviola and oleander at the > same time.> > I have written something on paw-paw and Graviola before, and I have > included it again hereunder.> > Marc Swanepoel> > All cells require energy in the form of Adenosine Triphosphate (ATP). > This substance cannot be stored in the cells and at any stage we have > enough to last for about 3 to 5 seconds. It is thus a continuous > process. A few billion years ago, before there was oxygen in the > atmosphere, primitive cells (eukaryotes) evolved the process of > producing ATP energy without the use of oxygen by a process of > glycolysis. Later on in the evolutionary process, when oxygen became > part of the atmosphere, certain types of bacteria evolved a much more > efficient way of producing ATP by utilizing oxygen through a process > known as oxidative phosphorylation (OXPHOS). This new process was > roughly 20 times more efficient than the glycolysis process. Roughly > two billion years ago, these bacteria and the original eukaryotes > fused into a symbiotically functioning and more complex cell system. > Researchers now acknowledge that the bacterial component of cells is > the cellular mitochondria. All cells, with the exclusion of red blood > cells, can have thousands of the mitochondria. These new "symbionts" > can switch between the two systems of ATP production, depending on the > demands of the cells. During the fetal stage and repair of cell > damage, it switches to the ATP production from glucose in the > cytoplasm. During the cell differentiation stage, it switches to the > OXPHOS system of oxidative ATP production in the cell mitochondria. > The switching system itself is controlled by an intricate signaling > system that depends on the permeability of the mitochondrial membrane > and its influence on the Ca 2+ cycle, the electrical charge across the > mitochondrial membrane and other factors. All these factors, in turn, > are modulated by the so-called thiol pool of which glutathione is the > most important component.>> When body cells are under oxidative or nitrosative stresses caused by > environmental factors and/or life style, the thiol pool normally gets > depleted and, with it, the ability of the mitochondria to produce ATP > through the OXPHOS system. As a defensive measure, the mitochondrial > switch puts the cells into the more primitive way of survival by > reverting to the much less efficient enzymatic production of ATP in > the cytoplasm. If the aforementioned stresses are chronic, the switch > remains in this position and we call the condition "cancer" - > identified by the undifferentiated division of cells.>> If the cut-off of ATP production by the OXPHOS system is sudden, the > cells will die and the process is known as 'necrosis' or sudden cell > death. If it is more gradual, the affected cells can 'commit suicide', > a process know as 'apoptosis'. Treatments like the acetogenins in > Paw-Paw extract, Graviola and similar plants, (as well as Cantron and > Protocel) have the effect of reducing the ATP in all cells and it is > then hoped that the described 'apoptosis' of cancer cells will take > place. Because of the fact that the ATP production of ALL cells is > reduced, one can feel very tired when using these supplements.>> Another very important fact is that the apoptosis of cancer cells will > only take place if the mitochondrial membrane is still permeable and > the CA 2+ cycle is still working. In all advanced cancers, this > permeability is blocked as part of the defense mechanism of cells and > apoptosis CANNOT take place, however much Paw-Paw extract, > Graviola, or any ATP reducing supplement one takes. One can thus see > that the treatment will work in some cases where the cancer is at a > stage where the mitochondrial switch is still fluctuating between the > two methods of ATP production. This 'window of opportunity' is > relatively short and when metastases have appeared, it is normally a > sign that the mitochondrial membranes are blocked. The only > alternative is then to reactivate the mitochondrial switch by getting > rid of the oxidative and nitrosative stresses, and by topping up the > depleted glutathione. Nothing else will work.>> >> The danger in using substances that will reduce ATP and/or glutathione > is twofold. As the reduction of ATP and/or glutathione is not > restricted to cancer cells it can (a) result in cells that are not yet > cancerous becoming cancerous and (b) result in fungal and bacterial > overgrowth that can be dangerous for weakened patients. If one looks > up the known side-effects of Tarceva, one will see that they are > all associated with a reduction in energy and the inability of cells > to defend themselves against internal pathogens (fatigue, rash, > infection, mouth sores, etc).>> >> -> ** Cheryl <cheryl.s.campbell >> *To:* oleander soup > <oleander soup >> *Sent:* Friday, October 30, 2009 12:36 PM> *Subject:* Cheryl Re: Is anyone here using Graviola?>> >> The scans weren't great. The brain tumors are shrinking or stable> for now but the lung cancer in in my right lung is growing again> and there is a spot on my left lung. I've been on Graviola since> March but only started Oleander on Aug. 17th and my scans were on> Oct. 3rd. Still hoping something kicks in and buys me a remission> of sorts.> thanks for asking Rachel.> Cheryl>> oleander soup > <oleander soup%40>, Lady Pilgrim> <Ladypilgrim wrote:> >> > Hi Cheryl> > Well how did it go?> > I'm hoping you have some good news to share with us.> >> > Thanks,> > Rachel> >> >> > Cheryl wrote:> > > I take 30 Graviola drops three times a day in a drink and seem> to tolerate it very well. My next scans are on Oct. 7th so I have> no idea if they are helping yet but I'll keep you posted.> > > Cheryl> > >> > >> > >> >>>>> >

[Guest guest]

Okay, Thank you!

I have only been on it about 2 weeks now and am trying to determine if I

should

continue with it or not.

Please clarify for me just what you are calling early stages.

My cancer was in early stage 2, when diagnosed, and was surgically removed

2 years ago, (no advised radiation) but they did not get it all. So has

since reared

it's ugly head again, it has not metastasized.

 

Is there any other way to know if this product is helping me?

What do you think about swollen lymph nodes, relating to taking paw paw?

I'm suspecting it's because the cancer is being killed off and my lymph

system is

cleaning house. I'm taking lots of enzymes and also serrapeptase to help.

 

Rachel

 

 

 

 

 

 

Marc Swanepoel - PhD wrote:

>

>

> From my reading of the research, paw-paw, Graviola, Tarceva and many

> other substances can help with cancer in the beginning stages

> by promoting the process of apoptosis. They work because they reduce

> the production of ATP which results, so the theory goes, in the death

> of fast growing cells that require a lot of ATP - preferably cancer

> cells. However, the alternative theory of cancer, that it is a

> protection mechanism for cells that are under certain stresses, holds

> that this apoptosis period is relatively short and that the cancer

> cells have their own ways of overcoming it. Apoptosis requires that

> the mitochondrial membranes remain permeable to Calcium ions. In

> cancer cells, these membranes get locked very quickly, especially

> after the cancer has metastasized. Oleander and NAC, unlike paw-paw,

> Graviola, etc, act to normalize the levels of glutathione in the body.

> This, in turn, unlocks the mitochondrial membranes and reverts the

> mitochondria to normalcy. The assumption is, of course, that the

> stresses which caused the problems in the first place, are also

> addressed. Thus the reason for the protocols.

>

> In summary, my personal take on paw-paw, Graviola, etc is that they

> are ok for cancer in the early stages but that they should then not be

> taken with NAC, whey protein, or anything that promotes the levels of

> glutathione or ATP production in the body. Once cancer has spread, or

> in the case of very advanced cancer, my opinion is that paw-paw,

> Graviola and other apoptosis promoting substances based on reduced ATP

> production, will simply not work.

>

> Marc Swanepoel

>

>

> -

> ** Lady Pilgrim <Ladypilgrim

> *To:* oleander soup

> <oleander soup >

> *Sent:* Friday, October 30, 2009 7:05 PM

> *Subject:* Re: Tony & Marc Graviola and

> Sutherlandia OPC

>

>

>

> Wow I really don't know what to think about paw paw now.

> I have researched it, and all articles including one written by

> our own

> Tony Isaacs

> called " Paw Paw Pulls the plug on cancer " indicates that it kills

> cancer

> cells.

>

> Yet your article below says it may kill it or cause it.

> How am I to know if this will help or harm???

> I need answers!

> Currently taking Paw Paw cell-Reg, Not on OPC,

> Rachel

>

> Marc Swanepoel - PhD wrote:

> >

> >

> > Hi Cheryl,

> >

> > Graviola and oleander work on two different and probably opposing

> > principles. Graviola, Paw-paw extract, and plants containing

> > acetogenins (as well as products like Cantron, Protocell and the

> > chemo drug Tarceva), work on the principle that if an energy drop

> > (reduced ATP) can be induced in cells, especially fast growing

> cells

> > like tumor cells, then the process of 'apoptosis' or cell

> suicide will

> > take place. Oleander and many other treatments, on the other hand,

> > work on the opposing principle that it is easier to restore proper

> > mitochondrial function by increasing cellular glutathione

> > and improving other cellular functions. One can thus, for

> example, not

> > use Graviola and NAC (which helps to synthesize glutathione) at the

> > same time, neither is it advisable to use Graviola and oleander

> at the

> > same time.

> >

> > I have written something on paw-paw and Graviola before, and I have

> > included it again hereunder.

> >

> > Marc Swanepoel

> >

> > All cells require energy in the form of Adenosine Triphosphate

> (ATP).

> > This substance cannot be stored in the cells and at any stage we

> have

> > enough to last for about 3 to 5 seconds. It is thus a continuous

> > process. A few billion years ago, before there was oxygen in the

> > atmosphere, primitive cells (eukaryotes) evolved the process of

> > producing ATP energy without the use of oxygen by a process of

> > glycolysis. Later on in the evolutionary process, when oxygen

> became

> > part of the atmosphere, certain types of bacteria evolved a much

> more

> > efficient way of producing ATP by utilizing oxygen through a

> process

> > known as oxidative phosphorylation (OXPHOS). This new process was

> > roughly 20 times more efficient than the glycolysis process.

> Roughly

> > two billion years ago, these bacteria and the original eukaryotes

> > fused into a symbiotically functioning and more complex cell

> system.

> > Researchers now acknowledge that the bacterial component of

> cells is

> > the cellular mitochondria. All cells, with the exclusion of red

> blood

> > cells, can have thousands of the mitochondria. These new

> " symbionts "

> > can switch between the two systems of ATP production, depending

> on the

> > demands of the cells. During the fetal stage and repair of cell

> > damage, it switches to the ATP production from glucose in the

> > cytoplasm. During the cell differentiation stage, it switches to

> the

> > OXPHOS system of oxidative ATP production in the cell mitochondria.

> > The switching system itself is controlled by an intricate signaling

> > system that depends on the permeability of the mitochondrial

> membrane

> > and its influence on the Ca 2+ cycle, the electrical charge

> across the

> > mitochondrial membrane and other factors. All these factors, in

> turn,

> > are modulated by the so-called thiol pool of which glutathione

> is the

> > most important component.

> >

> > When body cells are under oxidative or nitrosative stresses

> caused by

> > environmental factors and/or life style, the thiol pool normally

> gets

> > depleted and, with it, the ability of the mitochondria to

> produce ATP

> > through the OXPHOS system. As a defensive measure, the

> mitochondrial

> > switch puts the cells into the more primitive way of survival by

> > reverting to the much less efficient enzymatic production of ATP in

> > the cytoplasm. If the aforementioned stresses are chronic, the

> switch

> > remains in this position and we call the condition " cancer " -

> > identified by the undifferentiated division of cells.

> >

> > If the cut-off of ATP production by the OXPHOS system is sudden,

> the

> > cells will die and the process is known as 'necrosis' or sudden

> cell

> > death. If it is more gradual, the affected cells can 'commit

> suicide',

> > a process know as 'apoptosis'. Treatments like the acetogenins in

> > Paw-Paw extract, Graviola and similar plants, (as well as

> Cantron and

> > Protocel) have the effect of reducing the ATP in all cells and

> it is

> > then hoped that the described 'apoptosis' of cancer cells will take

> > place. Because of the fact that the ATP production of ALL cells is

> > reduced, one can feel very tired when using these supplements.

> >

> > Another very important fact is that the apoptosis of cancer

> cells will

> > only take place if the mitochondrial membrane is still permeable

> and

> > the CA 2+ cycle is still working. In all advanced cancers, this

> > permeability is blocked as part of the defense mechanism of

> cells and

> > apoptosis CANNOT take place, however much Paw-Paw extract,

> > Graviola, or any ATP reducing supplement one takes. One can thus

> see

> > that the treatment will work in some cases where the cancer is at a

> > stage where the mitochondrial switch is still fluctuating

> between the

> > two methods of ATP production. This 'window of opportunity' is

> > relatively short and when metastases have appeared, it is

> normally a

> > sign that the mitochondrial membranes are blocked. The only

> > alternative is then to reactivate the mitochondrial switch by

> getting

> > rid of the oxidative and nitrosative stresses, and by topping up

> the

> > depleted glutathione. Nothing else will work.

> >

> >

> >

> > The danger in using substances that will reduce ATP and/or

> glutathione

> > is twofold. As the reduction of ATP and/or glutathione is not

> > restricted to cancer cells it can (a) result in cells that are

> not yet

> > cancerous becoming cancerous and (b) result in fungal and bacterial

> > overgrowth that can be dangerous for weakened patients. If one

> looks

> > up the known side-effects of Tarceva, one will see that they are

> > all associated with a reduction in energy and the inability of

> cells

> > to defend themselves against internal pathogens (fatigue, rash,

> > infection, mouth sores, etc).

> >

> >

> >

> > -

> > ** Cheryl <cheryl.s.campbell

> <cheryl.s.campbell%40gmail.com>>

> > *To:* oleander soup

> <oleander soup%40>

> > <oleander soup

> <oleander soup%40>>

> > *Sent:* Friday, October 30, 2009 12:36 PM

> > *Subject:* Cheryl Re: Is anyone here using Graviola?

> >

> >

> >

> > The scans weren't great. The brain tumors are shrinking or stable

> > for now but the lung cancer in in my right lung is growing again

> > and there is a spot on my left lung. I've been on Graviola since

> > March but only started Oleander on Aug. 17th and my scans were on

> > Oct. 3rd. Still hoping something kicks in and buys me a remission

> > of sorts.

> > thanks for asking Rachel.

> > Cheryl

> >

> > oleander soup

> <oleander soup%40>

> > <oleander soup%40>, Lady Pilgrim

> > <Ladypilgrim wrote:

> > >

> > > Hi Cheryl

> > > Well how did it go?

> > > I'm hoping you have some good news to share with us.

> > >

> > > Thanks,

> > > Rachel

> > >

> > >

> > > Cheryl wrote:

> > > > I take 30 Graviola drops three times a day in a drink and seem

> > to tolerate it very well. My next scans are on Oct. 7th so I have

> > no idea if they are helping yet but I'll keep you posted.

> > > > Cheryl

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>