Dosage

[Guest guest]

Todd and Steven....

 

The advantage of alcohol extracts is clear for Spleen Qi Xu patterns where the

increased absorption overides the issue of lower dosage. Dosing may be broken

into pharmacological, physiological, and energetic. The super large doses of

materials such as Hu Zhang with the desire for

quick resolution may be considered pharmacological. The average doses of

classical formulas are closer to physiological in nature. Very small doses may

be used for more " spiritual " purposes. Dr. Shen uses small doses for treatment

of the nervous system, and larger doses for Zang

Fu issues. I have had the experience of hypersensitive patients requiring half

gram doses of poweder -- two to three drops of tincture -- and even a slight

sniff of a poweder as sufficient to manage the case. I think the issue with

water vs. alcohol extract is more linked to the

different compounds that are liberated in those media.

 

Will

 

 

<< " these products (alcohol based extracts) are designed to last a

week or more, meaning the daily intake of herbs is less than 5 grams.

Compare that to the typical doses in any classical or modern herbal text

(more like 50-150g per day) and one detects a significant disparity that can

only be explained away by resorting to the argument that pharmacology has

nothing to do with herbology. "

 

shouldn't we consider how little it takes to stimulate metabolic,

energy transfer, or signal transfer pathways by influencing hormones and

neurotransmitters with well chosen and potent ingredients? Does the effect

of herbs have to reach some kind of action potential that can only be

reached with a 5 gram dose? Wouldn't it be reasonable to state that dose

response curves are different for each person and vary depending on the

condition and the particular herbs selected for treatment?>>

 

Attachment: vcard [not shown]

[Guest guest]

, Will <will@e...> wrote:

and Steven....

>

> The advantage of alcohol extracts is clear for Spleen Qi Xu patterns where the

increased absorption overides the issue of lower dosage. Dosing may be broken

into pharmacological, physiological, and energetic. The super large doses of

materials such as Hu Zhang with the desire for

> quick resolution may be considered pharmacological. The average doses of

classical formulas are closer to physiological in nature. Very small doses may

be used for more " spiritual " purposes. Dr. Shen uses small doses for treatment

of the nervous system, and larger doses for Zang

> Fu issues. I have had the experience of hypersensitive patients requiring half

gram doses of poweder -- two to three drops of tincture -- and even a slight

sniff of a poweder as sufficient to manage the case. I think the issue with

water vs. alcohol extract is more linked to the

> different compounds that are liberated in those media.

>

> Will

>

>

> << " these products (alcohol based extracts) are designed to last a

> week or more, meaning the daily intake of herbs is less than 5 grams.

> Compare that to the typical doses in any classical or modern herbal text

> (more like 50-150g per day) and one detects a significant disparity that can

> only be explained away by resorting to the argument that pharmacology has

> nothing to do with herbology. "

>

> shouldn't we consider how little it takes to stimulate metabolic,

> energy transfer, or signal transfer pathways by influencing hormones and

> neurotransmitters with well chosen and potent ingredients? Does the effect

> of herbs have to reach some kind of action potential that can only be

> reached with a 5 gram dose? Wouldn't it be reasonable to state that dose

> response curves are different for each person and vary depending on the

> condition and the particular herbs selected for treatment?>>

 

will and steven

 

very interesting points on both accounts. I only wish that we could

study this issue scientifically to sort it out. Will, What is the

difference between what you call pharmacological and physiological? I

would want to see outcomes based analysis of a large group of patients,

some taking large dose, some medium and some small to see what the

results are in these cases. In animal models, large doses are used to

stimulate measurable biochemical and physiological changes and these

changes are often unmeasurable or clinically insignificant when dosage

is reduced below a certain threshold. for example, ling zhi's much

touted effect on the immune system does not occur at low or even medium

doses, according to Subhuti Dharmananda. While some other changes may

take place at these lower dosages, it is unclear how or whether these

subtler changes have much longterm impact on serious illness.

 

On the other hand, my clinical experience suggests that illness that

are functional, rather than structural do seem to respond to low doses.

For example, PMS responds well to patent medicines, but endometriosis

and uterine fibroids do not. I have never seen fibroids significantly

shrink from subtle medicine alone, but I have seen this result

consistently with large dose formulae. A well tailored large dose

formula generally has no side effects and overall benefit to the

patient, as well. Subtle medicine is much less likely to cause side

effects, regardless of precision prescribing, but I do suspect in many

cases, self limited illnesses which appear to be cured with subtle

medicines actually just remitted on their own. And the main advantage

of using these noniatrogenic methods was that the medicine did not

makes things worse, allowing self-healing to occur unimpeded. I always

tell students that no medicine is always better than the wrong

medicine.

 

[Guest guest]

I would want to see outcomes based analysis of a large group of patients, some taking large dose, some medium and some small to see what the results are in these cases.

>>>I second that

alon

[Guest guest]

, <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

> I

> would want to see outcomes based analysis of a large group of patients,

> some taking large dose, some medium and some small to see what the

> results are in these cases.

> >>>I second that

> alon

 

as some of you may be aware, the CHA already has a mechanism to collect

preliminary outcomes data. I am sure many of you have treated

structural GYN conditions such as ovarian cyst, uterine fibroid and

endometriosis. If you could take five minutes and upload some details

into our database, we might be able to get a handle on the efficacy of

various forms of herbs in these conditions. Be sure to fill out all

sections, including herb form and additional therapies used, such as

acupuncture.

 

the database is at /database/

 

Also a thought on using low dose herbs to initiate changes in

biological control systems through subtle signalling. This is one

proposed theory for the action of acupuncture. Yet modern chinese

research has fairly unequivocally dismissed acupuncture by itself as

being sufficient to correct structural or organic complaints (as

opposed to functional). Perhaps when organic changes have occurred,

this signalling system is unable to overrride the profound changes

induced by the disease process. I suspect this would also hold true

for low dose herbs.

 

[Guest guest]

Todd......

 

Yes, studies are needed. Utilization of the full range of the dose response

curve requires tremendous experience, and there is little research available. My

experience is similar to what you indicate, functional disorders and 'sensitive'

patients especially those with environmental sensitivities frequently do well

with low doses. Masses, organic diseases, and infections all require

'pharmacological' dosing.

 

I have experience using small doses of Fang Feng and Jing Jie (3 grams of powder

extract out 100 grams), both agents that release the exterior and function as

peripheral vaso-dilators. Dr Shen uses these to 'relax the nervous system' and

target neuro-psychological phenomena.

 

Will

 

Attachment: vcard [not shown]

[Guest guest]

Todd....

 

I just realized I didn't answer your question. The classification of dosage is

dependant on the material used and especially the constitutional nature.

Physiological doses are typically given for extended periods of time and are

modest (lower end of the dose), pharmacological dosing will tend to use the

upper range of the dose for that agent.

 

Will

 

Attachment: vcard [not shown]

[Guest guest]

I have experience using small doses of Fang Feng and Jing Jie (3 grams of powder extract out 100 grams), both agents that release the exterior and function as peripheral vaso-dilators. Dr Shen uses these to 'relax the nervous system' and target neuro-psychological phenomena.>>>Very interesting. Can you elaborate on how he uses it

alon

[Guest guest]

Hi Charlie, Rich and Robert,

 

What about herbs that are from different parts of China. I heard

that herbs grown in their traditional areas with have higher potency

whereas others grown elsewhere have less. Also the use of pesticides

will affect herbal potency aswell as other seasonal variations such

as sunshine, water, soil nutrition, etc.

 

I also heard that herbs from other countries such as South Korea are

far more potent than those in China. This may be due to modern

agricultural growing methods amongst other things.

 

How can practitioners such as us, make allowances for all these

variables in our prescriptions? It just seems too much of a hit and

miss game.

 

Attilio

 

Charles Buck <chesterclinic> wrote:

> Hi attilio,

> i hesitate to say i can speak with authority on these

> questions. It has been said that the chinese need

> higher doses than westerners, supposedly beacuse they

> are somehow genetically more used to them. Some say we

> are more like the japanese and can get by with

> slightly lower doses. I'm not sure about this, I think

> the biggest differences are probably between

> individuals and not races.

>

> The biggest problem, in my view, about the use of

> concentrated powders is the fact that when a

> manufacturer says they are 5:1 ratio, etc they are

> talking about an average across their product range.

> I gather it may be 1:1 or 20:1 ratio in individual

> herbs. So if your conc shi gao is 1;1 (and I have just

> today written a script using 45 g shigao) then you may

> have to use 45g of conc shi gao for a single day!!

>

> This can make a nonsense of prescription dynamics, our

> carefully constructed prescriptions can be scambled by

> thes factors. Its not that i don't use powders, but it

> tends to be a last resort.

>

> I would welcome other people's views on the whole dose

> question. My article in the JCM was not intended to be

> in any way definative. This is a difficult but

> important area I feel.

>

> best wishes

> charlie buck

[Guest guest]

Hi Attilio,

>

> How can practitioners such as us, make allowances for all these

> variables in our prescriptions? It just seems too much of a hit and

> miss game.

>

> Attilio

>

 

I would agree that there are many variables to deal with and we found

these variables did, in practice, influence treatments. Probably in

ancient times there were far less variables because of the limited

number of herbs available in a local region. I think that the

herbalists that I have gone to tried to limit the variables by working

with a limited number of herbs from a limited number of suppliers.

 

However, one variable that was very difficult to control was the fact

that the terrain of the illness would modify itself significantly

during the interim between visits to the doctor. This would mean that

we might be continuing a treatment that was either no longer effective

or counterproductive. This was an issue that could be somewhat managed

if we, as patients, were very knowledgable ourselves of the herbs that

we were taking and the changes that were taking place in our bodies.

 

We used the herbal approach for over 15 years with mixed results as

did many of our friends. Currently, we use the tuina/qigong approach

because it appears to have less variables and is therefore more

predictable. Basically the approach is to locate areas of stagnation

in the body and remove them using qigong, hand, gua sha or cupping

techniques. The results so far have been excellent and seem to

positively effect all levels of the psycho-somatic terrain. Of course,

my views are bound to change over time. That is life. :-)

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

Really, unless you are a botany whiz you're at the mercy of the supplier, so

pick a

good one. It IS a hit and miss game... welcome to medicine.

 

rh

 

Chinese Medicine , " "

<attiliodalberto> wrote:

> Hi Charlie, Rich and Robert,

>

> What about herbs that are from different parts of China. I heard

> that herbs grown in their traditional areas with have higher potency

> whereas others grown elsewhere have less. Also the use of pesticides

> will affect herbal potency aswell as other seasonal variations such

> as sunshine, water, soil nutrition, etc.

>

> I also heard that herbs from other countries such as South Korea are

> far more potent than those in China. This may be due to modern

> agricultural growing methods amongst other things.

>

> How can practitioners such as us, make allowances for all these

> variables in our prescriptions? It just seems too much of a hit and

> miss game.

>

> Attilio

[Guest guest]

Great!

 

Why can't there be more standardisation in the growing, processing and

supplying of herbs? Is that too much too ask?

 

Kind regards

 

Attilio

 

<traditional_Chinese_medicine>

traditional_Chinese_medicine

 

 

kampo36 [kampo36]

20 May 2004 14:52

Chinese Medicine

Re: Dosage

 

 

Really, unless you are a botany whiz you're at the mercy of the supplier, so

pick a

good one. It IS a hit and miss game... welcome to medicine.

 

rh

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Attilio,

 

 

> Why can't there be more standardisation in the growing, processing and

> supplying of herbs? Is that too much too ask?

>

 

As any wine grower will attest to, vegetation is a product of the

environment - ground, air, and cultivator (as are humans) and it is

impossible to standardize these elements. Everything is always

changing - year to year, moment to moment. The nice thing about humans

(doctors and patients) are that they can instanteously self-modify and

harmonize themselves (during a treatment process) using Intent (Yi)

since they are alive with consciousness - unlike herbs. However, this

makes humans quite unpredictable. Maybe herbs are better? :-)

 

As much as we would like predictability, I guess it will always be

elusive. I think one of the significant differences between Eastern

thought and Western science is the recognition and the acceptance of

the inevitably of uniqueness and continuous change - the I Ching. I

guess one of the questions each practitioner must wrestle with is

which perspective of the world does one adopt? I don't think it is

possible to have it both ways - though it may be possible. :-)

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " Attilio D'Alberto "

<attiliodalberto> wrote:

> Great!

>

> Why can't there be more standardisation in the growing, processing and

> supplying of herbs? Is that too much too ask?

>

> Kind regards

>

> Attilio

 

ironically you probably will see more standardization in coming years as Big

Pharm

gets increasingly involved in the game; as i understand it several Pharm

companies

already have invested a lot of money in r & d in China.

 

rh

[Guest guest]

I have been on Sutherlandia OPC 4 caps., curcumin, 2 caps 3 times a day, black

seed oil (1 per meal), enzymes, and NAC for 2-3 months now with no change in

CLL. Should I begin to increase the amounts of each that I take? I seem to

have poor digestion and wonder how much of the good stuff is actually getting

through. Thanks.

[Guest guest]

You are still in the range where it might be too soon to see results. Yet, increase the Sutherlandia OPC to six caps a day. Make sure that you are taking around 3,000 mg of curcumin daily. With regard to the NAC, Marc's instructions are below:

Take 2 x 600mg Time Release capsules of N-Acetyl Cysteine (NAC) with fruit juice three times per day on an empty stomach (to help the body synthesize Glutathione). If wasting (weight loss) is already advanced, these amounts can be doubled. There are reports that high dosages of NAC can lead to the loss of Zinc, Copper and other trace minerals and it may be advisable to take a trace mineral supplement to prevent this possibility.oleander soup , "mdunsmoor" <mdunsmoor wrote:>> I have been on Sutherlandia OPC 4 caps., curcumin, 2 caps 3 times a day, black seed oil (1 per meal), enzymes, and NAC for 2-3 months now with no change in CLL. Should I begin to increase the amounts of each that I take? I seem to have poor digestion and wonder how much of the good stuff is actually getting through. Thanks.>

[Guest guest]

Yes, increasing would be a good idea - though you are still fairly early on in the protocol and no change could be viewed as a positive.

Try Garden of Life's Primal Defense and see if that does not help with digestion and absorption. Bromelain is also a good absorption booster, being both a digestive enzyme and a powerful binder.

All the best,

oleander soup , "mdunsmoor" <mdunsmoor wrote:>> I have been on Sutherlandia OPC 4 caps., curcumin, 2 caps 3 times a day, black seed oil (1 per meal), enzymes, and NAC for 2-3 months now with no change in CLL. Should I begin to increase the amounts of each that I take? I seem to have poor digestion and wonder how much of the good stuff is actually getting through. Thanks.>

[Guest guest]

I have been taking innerlight greens with ph, is this comparable to primal defense?I am pretty new to this new food, supplements, etc.way of life.

 

I had cancer in the small intestine, something rare as I never hear it mentioned anywhere.

I had surgery in 06 however, the tumor grew large before it was removed and therefore cancer cells were released in my body. I have been taking shots monthly (somotastatin or Octeride). The shots damaged my gall bladder and that was removed a year ago. I live in

Germany presently and probably will be here another year. I would like to discontinue my shots eventually, however I need to be in good shape first and would pefer to be back in the states where I feel more comfortable with getting scans. It is hard when you don't speak the language. While I have always eaten a lot of fruits and veggies I have also eaten meat and cooked foods, which is difficult to give up.

 

I have been reading book after book on alternative health, prevention etc and found the about clay list which is where this list was recomended to me. So I am following along and trying to learn all I can. My onclogist told me I will have to take the shots as long as I life.

However, he did tell me about tumeric to counter the affects of radiation. I did not have chemo or radiation.

 

Tony, your book is next, but I haven't figured out how to get to your website yet.

 

Ultimately it is the Grace of God that will determine my course in life, but He also gave us a brain and I beive he intended us to use it and do a little of the work ourselves.

 

Blessings,

Barbara E.

 

--- On Tue, 9/29/09, wrote:

TonyI Re: Dosageoleander soup Date: Tuesday, September 29, 2009, 9:44 PM

 

 

Yes, increasing would be a good idea - though you are still fairly early on in the protocol and no change could be viewed as a positive.

Try Garden of Life's Primal Defense and see if that does not help with digestion and absorption. Bromelain is also a good absorption booster, being both a digestive enzyme and a powerful binder.

All the best,

oleander soup , "mdunsmoor" <mdunsmoor wrote:>> I have been on Sutherlandia OPC 4 caps., curcumin, 2 caps 3 times a day, black seed oil (1 per meal), enzymes, and NAC for 2-3 months now with no change in CLL. Should I begin to increase the amounts of each that I take? I seem to have poor digestion and wonder how much of the good stuff is actually getting through. Thanks.>

[Guest guest]

Hi Barbara,This is the link to Tony's book, Cancer's Natural Enemy. http://www.rose-laurel.com/ It will give you a complete understanding of how Cancer invades our bodies, together with a "roadmap" through the way to natural healing.Although, I am not familiar with the shots mentioned, I have found that very rarely is any type of medication needed for the rest of one's life. I was told that a few years ago with regard to other conditions, and it just was not true. Today I am medication free. You will learn an awful lot by reading Cancer's Natural Enemy and we are here to answer questions and support you.My very best,