Some truths about liver flushing - Epsom salts questions

June 22, 2009

Its great that you respect Jeff Bland. Please look at his article: ACID-ALKALINE

BALANCE: ROLE IN CHRONIC

DISEASE AND DETOXIFICATION

this answers your previous opinion on how food plays no roll in acidity. As I

recall you said that the body neutralizes everything..

oleander soup , Mike Golden <goldenmike86 wrote:

>

> Since it is a fairly complex subject, I think you should look online (Google)

for articles by Jeff Bland, PhD.

> Jeff was the director of research at the Linus Pauling Institute and is a

decent, knowledgeable guy. He writes quite a bit about liver detoxification and

the biochemical pathways involved. Jef writes some articles for professionals

and some for lay people.

>

> Mike

>

> ________________________________

> daniel martin <danielnv.martin

> oleander soup

> Monday, June 22, 2009 12:22:58 PM

> Re: Some truths about liver flushing - Re: Epsom salts

questions

>

> I find this discussion very interesting, as I have been doing liver

> cleansing and have been considering the merits of doing a liver flush

> at some point.

>

> I have previously done tons of parasite cleansing and have passed a

> lot of liver flukes and juveniles. Of course I am but 1 person and

> have no idea how common these things are in others. I also don't

> exactly know whether they have been cleansed out of my liver, bile

> duct, intestines, etc.

>

> I would love it if you could elaborate on the phase 1 and phase 2

> liver detox. FYI my interest in liver cleansing is mostly due the the

> HIV meds I was on, and of course the environmental toxins.

>

> Thanks,

> Daniel

>

> On 6/22/09, Mike Golden <goldenmike86@ > wrote:

> > I've actually read both Gray's Anatomy and Guyton's Physiology from cover to

> > cover. Have you? The link you posted has nothing but someone's opinion.

> > They are not quoting Guyton or Gray.

> > Your 5 years on the " liver " list exposes you to an environment in which

> > people reinforce each other's opinions. Not entirely worthless, but not

> > scientific. Liver flukes exist, but very few Americans actually have them,

> > no matter what they believe. (Hopefully you won't quote H. Clark.) Liver

> > stones exist, but they are rare. People's belief that they have them is not

> > relevant. If the internet existed 150 years ago you could spend 5 years on

> > a list where patients and doctors alike discussed the merits of blood

> > letting.

> >

> > Purging philosophies caught on early in Western medicine. Many of them have

> > fallen by the wayside. Some of them have gathered steam with the advent of

> > the internet. Hopefully this will correct itself as people learn that there

> > is a big world of natural health care out there and that there are rational

> > explanations behind productive therapies. However, if you go back and look

> > at my original comments, you'll see that my point was that, even if these

> > flushes did purge the liver (and I believe they do not), there are better

> > ways to make the liver more functional that are not extreme and are based in

> > science.

> >

> > Mike

> >

> > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > unyquity <yrrocks (AT) pcsia (DOT) net>

> > oleander soup

> > Saturday, June 20, 2009 7:33:22 AM

> > Some truths about liver flushing - Re: Epsom salts

> > questions

> >

> > I respectfully disagree that intrahepatic stones are rare, and I also

> > disagree that pure oil goes directly into the liver.

> >

> > Yes the oil (like most food/nutrition) DOES go into the hepatic portal

> > artery/system directly to the liver, but not before it has been mixed with

> > bile, other digestive enzymes & gastric secretions and been

> > digested/partially digested. It's the stored bile in the liver released by

> > the ingested oil that causes the action of the flush you don't believe in,

> > not the oil running through the liver.

> >

> > The liver would not have to contract for intrahepatic stones to be expelled,

> > anymore than a garden hose would need to contract for a dirt clog to be

> > expelled (from water pressure behind it) - it's the bile coursing through

> > the biliary network that pushes out the debris, biliary sludge and

> > intrahepatic stones and gallstones.. .the contraction of the gallbladder is

> > an " assist " here, but not at ALL necessary.

> >

> > In fact, MANY people without gallbladders do liver flushes and get out

> > stones, liver flukes, and stones encrusted/embedded with liver flukes. These

> > certainly didn't come from the gallbladder, nor could they have possibly

> > been randomly formed in the digestive tract. When dissecting the older

> > stones, one can clearly see the layers, some with varying levels of

> > calcification.

> >

> > I have been reading the Liver Flush forum on Curezone daily for over 5

> > years, and I have seen FAR too many test/lab results that conclusively prove

> > what I am saying to argue further (not to mention the works of Dr. Kelley).

> > MANY people over the years have flushed the gallbladder free of stones in

> > the first few flushes, confirmed it with HIDA scans and ultra sounds (and

> > had the stones analyzed), yet continued on to get hundreds/thousands of

> > stones from their livers (red, black, liver fluke encrusted & calcified),

> > and seen consistent, positive improvements in their symptoms and

> > bloodwork... whether one chooses to believe it or not.

> >

> > Of course, cleansing debris from ANY organ isn't the only step required in

> > healing an organ - but it IS an integral step. It's not unscientific, it's a

> > simple as Gray's Anatomy & Guyton's Physiology:

> > http://www.docsutte r.com/articles. php?cmd=view & id=39

> >

> > Healthiest of blessings -

> >

> > Unyquity

> >

> > oleander soup, Mike Golden <goldenmike86@ ...>

> > wrote:

> >>

> >> Intrahepatic stones are rare. The people who report these green stones

> >> following a flush report these things out of all proportion to the

> >> frequency of intrahepatic stones. Also, these commonly reported stones

> >> have been examined and found to be acretions and not expressed from the

> >> liver.

> >> You are wrong about two other things. One...there is no mechanism for the

> >> liver to express stones like the gall bladder does. The gall bladder is

> >> contractile. The liver is not. Two....EVERYTHING we eat goes through the

> >> liver first via the portal vein. This is called the portal hepatic

> >> system. In fact, I will be talking about it next week in the college

> >> physiology course which I teach. Oils do pass through it directly from

> >> the organs of digestion. Those oil do not, though, benefit the liver in

> >> any way in its ability to function.

> >>

> >> If you want to improve liver function you have to decrease the work load

> >> on the liver temporarily and , at the same time provide dietary substrate

> >> that supports both Pase One and Phase Two detoxification pathways. This,

> >> correctly done, will improve liver function over the course of two weeks.

> >> This is verifiable by various clearence tests (caffeine clearence, for

> >> example). Following this there will often be a dramatic improvement in

> >> health and function.

> >>

> >> This approach is actually based on real science and not simplistic notions

> >> concerning liver function.

> >>

> >> There was a time when patients and doctors alike claimed subjective health

> >> benefits via a purging type approach. This went on for a long time and it

> >> seemed to be based on " common sense " . Unfortunately it was both

> >> simplistic and nonproductive. It was called bloodletting. Look it up.

> >>

> >> Mike

> >>

> >

>

June 22, 2009

Hey Mike,I am just wondering, do you actually believe that gall stones can be cleaned out with the liver flush?Rishi--- On Mon, 6/22/09, Mike Golden <goldenmike86 wrote:Mike Golden <goldenmike86Re: Some truths about liver flushing - Re: Epsom salts questionsoleander soup Date: Monday, June 22, 2009, 11:51 AM

Since it is a fairly complex subject, I think you should look online (Google) for articles by Jeff Bland, PhD.

Jeff was the director of research at the Linus Pauling Institute and is a decent, knowledgeable guy. He writes quite a bit about liver detoxification and the biochemical pathways involved. Jef writes some articles for professionals and some for lay people.

Mike

daniel martin <danielnv.martin@ gmail.com>oleander soupMonday, June 22, 2009 12:22:58 PMRe: Some truths about liver flushing - Re: Epsom salts questions

I find this discussion very interesting, as I have been doing livercleansing and have been considering the merits of doing a liver flushat some point.I have previously done tons of parasite cleansing and have passed alot of liver flukes and juveniles. Of course I am but 1 person andhave no idea how common these things are in others. I also don'texactly know whether they have been cleansed out of my liver, bileduct, intestines, etc.I would love it if you could elaborate on the phase 1 and phase 2liver detox. FYI my interest in liver cleansing is mostly due the theHIV meds I was on, and of course the environmental toxins.Thanks,DanielOn 6/22/09, Mike Golden <goldenmike86@ > wrote:> I've actually read both Gray's Anatomy and Guyton's

Physiology from

cover to> cover. Have you? The link you posted has nothing but someone's opinion.> They are not quoting Guyton or Gray.> Your 5 years on the "liver" list exposes you to an environment in which> people reinforce each other's opinions. Not entirely worthless, but not> scientific. Liver flukes exist, but very few Americans actually have them,> no matter what they believe. (Hopefully you won't quote H. Clark.) Liver> stones exist, but they are rare. People's belief that they have them is not> relevant. If the internet existed 150 years ago you could spend 5 years on> a list where patients and doctors alike discussed the merits of blood> letting.>> Purging philosophies caught on early in Western medicine. Many of them have> fallen by the wayside. Some of them have gathered steam with the advent of> the internet. Hopefully this will correct itself as people learn

that there> is a big world of natural health care out there and that there are rational> explanations behind productive therapies. However, if you go back and look> at my original comments, you'll see that my point was that, even if these> flushes did purge the liver (and I believe they do not), there are better> ways to make the liver more functional that are not extreme and are based in> science.>> Mike>>>> ____________ _________ _________ __> unyquity <yrrocks (AT) pcsia (DOT) net>> oleander soup> Saturday, June 20, 2009 7:33:22 AM> Some

truths about liver

flushing - Re: Epsom salts> questions>>>>>> I respectfully disagree that intrahepatic stones are rare, and I also> disagree that pure oil goes directly into the liver.>> Yes the oil (like most food/nutrition) DOES go into the hepatic portal> artery/system directly to the liver, but not before it has been mixed with> bile, other digestive enzymes & gastric secretions and been> digested/partially digested. It's the stored bile in the liver released by> the ingested oil that causes the action of the flush you don't believe in,> not the oil running through the liver.>> The liver would not have to contract for intrahepatic stones to be expelled,> anymore than a garden hose would need to contract for a dirt clog to be> expelled (from water pressure behind it) - it's the bile coursing through> the biliary network that

pushes out the debris, biliary sludge and> intrahepatic stones and gallstones.. .the contraction of the gallbladder is> an "assist" here, but not at ALL necessary.>> In fact, MANY people without gallbladders do liver flushes and get out> stones, liver flukes, and stones encrusted/embedded with liver flukes. These> certainly didn't come from the gallbladder, nor could they have possibly> been randomly formed in the digestive tract. When dissecting the older> stones, one can clearly see the layers, some with varying levels of> calcification.>> I have been reading the Liver Flush forum on Curezone daily for over 5> years, and I have seen FAR too many test/lab results that conclusively prove> what I am saying to argue further (not to mention the works of Dr. Kelley).> MANY people over the years have flushed the gallbladder free of stones in> the first

few flushes, confirmed it with HIDA scans and ultra sounds (and> had the stones analyzed), yet continued on to get hundreds/thousands of> stones from their livers (red, black, liver fluke encrusted & calcified),> and seen consistent, positive improvements in their symptoms and> bloodwork... whether one chooses to believe it or not.>> Of course, cleansing debris from ANY organ isn't the only step required in> healing an organ - but it IS an integral step. It's not unscientific, it's a> simple as Gray's Anatomy & Guyton's Physiology:> http://www.docsutte r.com/articles. php?cmd=view & id=39>> Healthiest of blessings ->> Unyquity>> oleander soup, Mike Golden <goldenmike86@ ...>> wrote:>>>> Intrahepatic stones are rare.

The people who

report these green stones>> following a flush report these things out of all proportion to the>> frequency of intrahepatic stones. Also, these commonly reported stones>> have been examined and found to be acretions and not expressed from the>> liver.>> You are wrong about two other things. One...there is no mechanism for the>> liver to express stones like the gall bladder does. The gall bladder is>> contractile. The liver is not. Two....EVERYTHING we eat goes through the>> liver first via the portal vein. This is called the portal hepatic>> system. In fact, I will be talking about it next week in the college>> physiology course which I teach. Oils do pass through it directly from>> the organs of digestion. Those oil do not, though, benefit the liver in>> any way in its ability to function.>>>> If you want to improve

liver function you have to decrease the work load>> on the liver temporarily and , at the same time provide dietary substrate>> that supports both Pase One and Phase Two detoxification pathways. This,>> correctly done, will improve liver function over the course of two weeks.>> This is verifiable by various clearence tests (caffeine clearence, for>> example). Following this there will often be a dramatic improvement in>> health and function.>>>> This approach is actually based on real science and not simplistic notions>> concerning liver function.>>>> There was a time when patients and doctors alike claimed subjective health>> benefits via a purging type approach. This went on for a long time and it>> seemed to be based on "common sense". Unfortunately it was both>> simplistic and nonproductive. It was called

bloodletting. Look it up.>>>> Mike>>>>>>>>>>

June 23, 2009

No, for gall stones the only way I know to do it that is at all reliable is the gall bladder flush (notice I don't call it a "liver " flush). I've done this with a number of willing patients over the years. When you get a real gall stone out it does not look like the green acretion globules.

Mike

gunter or/and eva <evaguntioleander soup Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 3:10:55 PMRe: Some truths about liver flushing - Re: Epsom salts questions

Hey Mike,I am just wondering, do you actually believe that gall stones can be cleaned out with the liver flush?Rishi--- On Mon, 6/22/09, Mike Golden <goldenmike86@ > wrote:

Mike Golden <goldenmike86@ >Re: Some truths about liver flushing - Re: Epsom salts questionsoleander soupMonday, June 22, 2009, 11:51 AM

Since it is a fairly complex subject, I think you should look online (Google) for articles by Jeff Bland, PhD.

Jeff was the director of research at the Linus Pauling Institute and is a decent, knowledgeable guy. He writes quite a bit about liver detoxification and the biochemical pathways involved. Jef writes some articles for professionals and some for lay people.

Mike

daniel martin <danielnv.martin@ gmail.com>oleander soupMonday, June 22, 2009 12:22:58 PMRe: Some truths about liver flushing - Re: Epsom salts questions

I find this discussion very interesting, as I have been doing livercleansing and have been considering the merits of doing a liver flushat some point.I have previously done tons of parasite cleansing and have passed alot of liver flukes and juveniles. Of course I am but 1 person andhave no idea how common these things are in others. I also don'texactly know whether they have been cleansed out of my liver, bileduct, intestines, etc.I would love it if you could elaborate on the phase 1 and phase 2liver detox. FYI my interest in liver cleansing is mostly due the theHIV meds I was on, and of course the environmental toxins.Thanks,DanielOn 6/22/09, Mike Golden <goldenmike86@ > wrote:> I've actually read both Gray's Anatomy and Guyton's Physiology from cover to> cover. Have you? The link you posted has nothing but someone's opinion.>

They are not quoting Guyton or Gray.> Your 5 years on the "liver" list exposes you to an environment in which> people reinforce each other's opinions. Not entirely worthless, but not> scientific. Liver flukes exist, but very few Americans actually have them,> no matter what they believe. (Hopefully you won't quote H. Clark.) Liver> stones exist, but they are rare. People's belief that they have them is not> relevant. If the internet existed 150 years ago you could spend 5 years on> a list where patients and doctors alike discussed the merits of blood> letting.>> Purging philosophies caught on early in Western medicine. Many of them have> fallen by the wayside. Some of them have gathered steam with the advent of> the internet. Hopefully this will correct itself as people learn that there> is a big world of natural health care out there and that there are

rational> explanations behind productive therapies. However, if you go back and look> at my original comments, you'll see that my point was that, even if these> flushes did purge the liver (and I believe they do not), there are better> ways to make the liver more functional that are not extreme and are based in> science.>> Mike>>>> ____________ _________ _________ __> unyquity <yrrocks (AT) pcsia (DOT) net>> oleander soup> Saturday, June 20, 2009 7:33:22 AM> Some truths about liver flushing - Re: Epsom salts> questions>>>>>> I respectfully disagree that intrahepatic stones are rare, and I also> disagree that pure oil goes directly into the liver.>> Yes the oil (like most food/nutrition)

DOES go into the hepatic portal> artery/system directly to the liver, but not before it has been mixed with> bile, other digestive enzymes & gastric secretions and been> digested/partially digested. It's the stored bile in the liver released by> the ingested oil that causes the action of the flush you don't believe in,> not the oil running through the liver.>> The liver would not have to contract for intrahepatic stones to be expelled,> anymore than a garden hose would need to contract for a dirt clog to be> expelled (from water pressure behind it) - it's the bile coursing through> the biliary network that pushes out the debris, biliary sludge and> intrahepatic stones and gallstones.. .the contraction of the gallbladder is> an "assist" here, but not at ALL necessary.>> In fact, MANY people without gallbladders do liver flushes and get out>

stones, liver flukes, and stones encrusted/embedded with liver flukes. These> certainly didn't come from the gallbladder, nor could they have possibly> been randomly formed in the digestive tract. When dissecting the older> stones, one can clearly see the layers, some with varying levels of> calcification.>> I have been reading the Liver Flush forum on Curezone daily for over 5> years, and I have seen FAR too many test/lab results that conclusively prove> what I am saying to argue further (not to mention the works of Dr. Kelley).> MANY people over the years have flushed the gallbladder free of stones in> the first few flushes, confirmed it with HIDA scans and ultra sounds (and> had the stones analyzed), yet continued on to get hundreds/thousands of> stones from their livers (red, black, liver fluke encrusted & calcified),> and seen consistent, positive

improvements in their symptoms and> bloodwork... whether one chooses to believe it or not.>> Of course, cleansing debris from ANY organ isn't the only step required in> healing an organ - but it IS an integral step. It's not unscientific, it's a> simple as Gray's Anatomy & Guyton's Physiology:> http://www.docsutte r.com/articles. php?cmd=view & id=39>> Healthiest of blessings ->> Unyquity>> oleander soup, Mike Golden <goldenmike86@ ...>> wrote:>>>> Intrahepatic stones are rare. The people who report these green stones>> following a flush report these things out of all proportion to the>> frequency of intrahepatic stones. Also, these commonly reported stones>> have been examined and found to be acretions and not

expressed from the>> liver.>> You are wrong about two other things. One...there is no mechanism for the>> liver to express stones like the gall bladder does. The gall bladder is>> contractile. The liver is not. Two....EVERYTHING we eat goes through the>> liver first via the portal vein. This is called the portal hepatic>> system. In fact, I will be talking about it next week in the college>> physiology course which I teach. Oils do pass through it directly from>> the organs of digestion. Those oil do not, though, benefit the liver in>> any way in its ability to function.>>>> If you want to improve liver function you have to decrease the work load>> on the liver temporarily and , at the same time provide dietary substrate>> that supports both Pase One and Phase Two detoxification pathways. This,>> correctly done,

will improve liver function over the course of two weeks.>> This is verifiable by various clearence tests (caffeine clearence, for>> example). Following this there will often be a dramatic improvement in>> health and function.>>>> This approach is actually based on real science and not simplistic notions>> concerning liver function.>>>> There was a time when patients and doctors alike claimed subjective health>> benefits via a purging type approach. This went on for a long time and it>> seemed to be based on "common sense". Unfortunately it was both>> simplistic and nonproductive. It was called bloodletting. Look it up.>>>>

Mike>>>>>>>>>>

June 23, 2009

How do you do a gallbladder flush?

Thanks,

Rose

714.349-1200 Cell

Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. ~Dr. Seuss

oleander soup From: goldenmike86Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 16:06:28 -0700Re: Some truths about liver flushing - Re: Epsom salts questions

No, for gall stones the only way I know to do it that is at all reliable is the gall bladder flush (notice I don't call it a "liver " flush). I've done this with a number of willing patients over the years. When you get a real gall stone out it does not look like the green acretion globules.

Mike

gunter or/and eva <evagunti >oleander soup Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 3:10:55 PMRe: Some truths about liver flushing - Re: Epsom salts questions

Hey Mike,I am just wondering, do you actually believe that gall stones can be cleaned out with the liver flush?Rishi--- On Mon, 6/22/09, Mike Golden <goldenmike86@ > wrote:

Mike Golden <goldenmike86@ >Re: Some truths about liver flushing - Re: Epsom salts questionsoleander soupMonday, June 22, 2009, 11:51 AM

Since it is a fairly complex subject, I think you should look online (Google) for articles by Jeff Bland, PhD.

Jeff was the director of research at the Linus Pauling Institute and is a decent, knowledgeable guy. He writes quite a bit about liver detoxification and the biochemical pathways involved. Jef writes some articles for professionals and some for lay people.

Mike

daniel martin <danielnv.martin@ gmail.com>oleander soupMonday, June 22, 2009 12:22:58 PMRe: Some truths about liver flushing - Re: Epsom salts questions

I find this discussion very interesting, as I have been doing livercleansing and have been considering the merits of doing a liver flushat some point.I have previously done tons of parasite cleansing and have passed alot of liver flukes and juveniles. Of course I am but 1 person andhave no idea how common these things are in others. I also don'texactly know whether they have been cleansed out of my liver, bileduct, intestines, etc.I would love it if you could elaborate on the phase 1 and phase 2liver detox. FYI my interest in liver cleansing is mostly due the theHIV meds I was on, and of course the environmental toxins.Thanks,DanielOn 6/22/09, Mike Golden <goldenmike86@ > wrote:> I've actually read both Gray's Anatomy and Guyton's Physiology from cover to> cover. Have you? The link you posted has nothing but someone's opinion.> They are not quoting Guyton or Gray.> Your 5 years on the "liver" list exposes you to an environment in which> people reinforce each other's opinions. Not entirely worthless, but not> scientific. Liver flukes exist, but very few Americans actually have them,> no matter what they believe. (Hopefully you won't quote H. Clark.) Liver> stones exist, but they are rare. People's belief that they have them is not> relevant. If the internet existed 150 years ago you could spend 5 years on> a list where patients and doctors alike discussed the merits of blood> letting.>> Purging philosophies caught on early in Western medicine. Many of them have> fallen by the wayside. Some of them have gathered steam with the advent of> the internet. Hopefully this will correct itself as people learn that there> is a big world of natural health care out there and that there are rational> explanations behind productive therapies. However, if you go back and look> at my original comments, you'll see that my point was that, even if these> flushes did purge the liver (and I believe they do not), there are better> ways to make the liver more functional that are not extreme and are based in> science.>> Mike>>>> ____________ _________ _________ __> unyquity <yrrocks (AT) pcsia (DOT) net>> oleander soup> Saturday, June 20, 2009 7:33:22 AM> Some truths about liver flushing - Re: Epsom salts> questions>>>>>> I respectfully disagree that intrahepatic stones are rare, and I also> disagree that pure oil goes directly into the liver.>> Yes the oil (like most food/nutrition) DOES go into the hepatic portal> artery/system directly to the liver, but not before it has been mixed with> bile, other digestive enzymes & gastric secretions and been> digested/partially digested. It's the stored bile in the liver released by> the ingested oil that causes the action of the flush you don't believe in,> not the oil running through the liver.>> The liver would not have to contract for intrahepatic stones to be expelled,> anymore than a garden hose would need to contract for a dirt clog to be> expelled (from water pressure behind it) - it's the bile coursing through> the biliary network that pushes out the debris, biliary sludge and> intrahepatic stones and gallstones.. .the contraction of the gallbladder is> an "assist" here, but not at ALL necessary.>> In fact, MANY people without gallbladders do liver flushes and get out> stones, liver flukes, and stones encrusted/embedded with liver flukes. These> certainly didn't come from the gallbladder, nor could they have possibly> been randomly formed in the digestive tract. When dissecting the older> stones, one can clearly see the layers, some with varying levels of> calcification.>> I have been reading the Liver Flush forum on Curezone daily for over 5> years, and I have seen FAR too many test/lab results that conclusively prove> what I am saying to argue further (not to mention the works of Dr. Kelley).> MANY people over the years have flushed the gallbladder free of stones in> the first few flushes, confirmed it with HIDA scans and ultra sounds (and> had the stones analyzed), yet continued on to get hundreds/thousands of> stones from their livers (red, black, liver fluke encrusted & calcified),> and seen consistent, positive improvements in their symptoms and> bloodwork... whether one chooses to believe it or not.>> Of course, cleansing debris from ANY organ isn't the only step required in> healing an organ - but it IS an integral step. It's not unscientific, it's a> simple as Gray's Anatomy & Guyton's Physiology:> http://www.docsutte r.com/articles. php?cmd=view & id=39>> Healthiest of blessings ->> Unyquity>> oleander soup, Mike Golden <goldenmike86@ ...>> wrote:>>>> Intrahepatic stones are rare. The people who report these green stones>> following a flush report these things out of all proportion to the>> frequency of intrahepatic stones. Also, these commonly reported stones>> have been examined and found to be acretions and not expressed from the>> liver.>> You are wrong about two other things. One...there is no mechanism for the>> liver to express stones like the gall bladder does. The gall bladder is>> contractile. The liver is not. Two....EVERYTHING we eat goes through the>> liver first via the portal vein. This is called the portal hepatic>> system. In fact, I will be talking about it next week in the college>> physiology course which I teach. Oils do pass through it directly from>> the organs of digestion. Those oil do not, though, benefit the liver in>> any way in its ability to function.>>>> If you want to improve liver function you have to decrease the work load>> on the liver temporarily and , at the same time provide dietary substrate>> that supports both Pase One and Phase Two detoxification pathways. This,>> correctly done, will improve liver function over the course of two weeks.>> This is verifiable by various clearence tests (caffeine clearence, for>> example). Following this there will often be a dramatic improvement in>> health and function.>>>> This approach is actually based on real science and not simplistic notions>> concerning liver function.>>>> There was a time when patients and doctors alike claimed subjective health>> benefits via a purging type approach. This went on for a long time and it>> seemed to be based on "common sense". Unfortunately it was both>> simplistic and nonproductive. It was called bloodletting. Look it up.>>>> Mike>>>>>>>>>>

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June 23, 2009

Well availdollars, when people do the liver fluch they also use the pot.

Hope this answers your question.

Hugs Mary

-

AVAILDOLLARS

oleander soup

Tuesday, June 23, 2009 1:05 AM

Re: Some truths about liver flushing - Re: Epsom salts questions

forgive me for this simplelton question, wheni go n sit on the pot to shit n i m unable to see anything that goes in the pot during the shit process so how do people detirmine that stones r flushed n some folks even give the coulour n count of the stones. pls educate me on this matter

Thank you

May JESUS bless u & family--- On Mon, 6/22/09, Mike Golden <goldenmike86 > wrote:

Mike Golden <goldenmike86 >Re: Some truths about liver flushing - Re: Epsom salts questionsoleander soup Date: Monday, June 22, 2009, 7:49 AM

Thank you for your comments.

Actually, as regards the American diet, the opposite of what you said is true. It is the fat content in a food bolus that triggers the gall bladder to empty. The America diet is loaded with fats. The gall bladder is kept working overtime. In fact, the most serious gall bladder disease often follows fad diets that are very low in fat. This was quite common with some of the well known meal replacement diets about 20 years ago. This phenomenon was particularly prevalent in middle aged woman. ("Fat, fecund, female, forty", in fact is the mnemonic device used in med school to help screen for possible gall bladder disease.)

In Americans who eat the mainstream American high fat diet, the most common cause of gall bladder disease seems to be food hypersensitivity reactions (at least that tends to bring on the actual attack). These same hypersensitivities also keep the liver detox pathways precoccupied.

When people do this oil purge, if there are no "stones" produced, they are encouraged to keep trying until they get some. When "stones" are produced they are encouraged to continue until there are no "stones". The "experts" on this always have a way to flip perception to accommodate the hypothesis.

The facts are that people can benefit, if they are unwell, from an improvement in the ability of the liver to detoxify the blood stream. This is not the same as claiming that the liver, itself, is toxic. An overworked liver can benefit from an upregulation of detoxification pathways. This purge will not do this, except by the short term flushing of the GI tract. Diarrhea exists for a reason. It helps clean the bowel in the short term. If you did this repetitively you would tend to give the liver a series of short "vacations" from having to deal with many of the bowel toxins, which are generally metabolites of bacteria. The downside is that the approach only has short term benefit and is too harsh to maintain. We are not set up to handle this amount of oil all at once. There will be a gradual toll taken on the body, with loss of fat soluble vitamins and a loss of electrolytes with the diarrhea.

Purging approaches have benefit in acute poisonings. They should not be used routinely. There are far better ways to improve liver function. (Now remember I do agree that this type of purge can save some people from gall bladder surgery...They have merit there.)

What I find unusual is that people , who otherwise promote natural therapies, also promote these very un-natural purges.

Mike

bonavena25 <maverick40 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com>oleander soupSaturday, June 20, 2009 8:28:13 AM Some truths about liver flushing - Re: Epsom salts questions

MikeI've been liver flushing for around four years and whilst there have been varying results from flush to flush, overall there has been a noticeable and steady decline in the the amount of green stones released over time. At the start of my flushing journey I released at least a couple of hundred of these stones in my first ten or so flushes, culminating in releasing about 250-300 on my thirteenth. Ever since then I have never gotten beyond thirty stones and more often than not I get nothing at all. How do you explain this? Even taking into account your belief that conditions are different every time(which I agree with) then surely I should still be getting the odd flush where I release around a hundred or so. But I don't.I think your wrong to dismiss it as a simple purging of the digestive tract. There is science and method behind the liver flush once you accept that these green clumps of bile are indeed blocking your bile ducts, and the reduction in my chronic fatigue symptoms confirms this, at least for me anyway.I do accept though that if you haven't experienced first hand relief from these flushes then it's hard to believe. I've watched autopsy programs and seen the size of the liver and I find it hard to believe such an amount of stones could reside in there, but the gradual reduction in my chronic symptoms, along with the consistent decline in stones released, can only lead to me the conclusion that they are real and genuine. If you consider the average Western diet, it makes sense that bile gets backed up at a consistent rate, as the gallbladder is rarely given the foods needed to expel its contents at a sufficient level to lessen stagnation.oleander soup, Mike Golden <goldenmike86@ ...> wrote:>> Intrahepatic stones are rare. The people who report these green stones following a flush report these things out of all proportion to the frequency of intrahepatic stones. Also, these commonly reported stones have been examined and found to be acretions and not expressed from the liver.> You are wrong about two other things. One...there is no mechanism for the liver to express stones like the gall bladder does. The gall bladder is contractile. The liver is not. Two....EVERYTHING we eat goes through the liver first via the portal vein. This is called the portal hepatic system. In fact, I will be talking about it next week in the college physiology course which I teach. Oils do pass through it directly from the organs of digestion. Those oil do not, though, benefit the liver in any way in its ability to function.> > If you want to improve liver function you have to decrease the work load on the liver temporarily and , at the same time provide dietary substrate that supports both Pase One and Phase Two detoxification pathways. This, correctly done, will improve liver function over the course of two weeks. This is verifiable by various clearence tests (caffeine clearence, for example). Following this there will often be a dramatic improvement in health and function.> > This approach is actually based on real science and not simplistic notions concerning liver function.> > There was a time when patients and doctors alike claimed subjective health benefits via a purging type approach. This went on for a long time and it seemed to be based on "common sense". Unfortunately it was both simplistic and nonproductive. It was called bloodletting. Look it up.> > Mike> > --- On Sat, 6/20/09, unyquity <yrrocks > wrote:> > > unyquity <yrrocks >> Some truths about liver flushing - Re: Epsom salts questions> oleander soup> Saturday, June 20, 2009, 2:15 AM> > > > > > > > > With all due respect, it appears (to me) your logic/research is flawed.> > --There IS such a thing as "liver stones" (as well as gallstones) - this is indisputable. ..and doing a 'liver flush' expels both (as well as biliary sludge and liver flukes, if one has them and has taken anti-parasite herbs to kill them).> > Here's a google search on "intrahepatic stones" + liver: http://tinyurl. com/n5mg5j> > And here's an image search of the same: http://tinyurl. com/ktgjv7> > Enough searching through the links above will clearly confirm that even allopathic medicine confirms the presence of intrahepatic stones (sometimes referred to as intrahepatic gallstones) and knows they degrade liver function/health. ..in fact, allopathic medicine frequently recommends :::sigh::: surgery/liver resection.> (Yes, the links above DO have information from CZ and other 'alternative' sites, too - but there's ample information from allopathic sites & surgeries for even the most die-hard 'non believer')> > -- This statement: >>> is more complicated than running some oil through it. <<<> ...is a common (but physiologically impossible) misconception. Nothing ingested by mouth runs directly through the liver! The mechanism of liver flushing has nothing to do with oil running through the liver - the oil/citrus potion causes the liver to release the bile that's been created/stored for the day (up to a quart and a half daily) - and it's the bile flooding through the biliary network that creates the "flush" process. > > --The contents of this blog: http://curezone. com/blogs/ f.asp?f=1196 completely, thoroughly AND scientifically detail & explain every aspect of the liver flush procedure. Below is the original "index", but the blog & information has expanded substantially since it's beginnings:> > Detailed, Blow-by-Blow account of Telman's liver cleaning experiences over 38 flushes. Also other articles about liver flushing, the biliary system and gallstones.> > Index:> Telman's Maintenance Programme> Hiatal Hernia, Ileocecal Valve and Gallstones> Magnesium Citrate or Sulphate> Involvement of Magnesium Sulphate in the Liver Flush - Updated> Enterohepatic Recirculation> Oil and Citric Acid Flush Potion> Explanation of the Liver Flush> Biliary Sludge> Quality of Olive Oils> Egg Lime Oil [ELO] Flush Details> Flushes 1 to 10> Flushes 11 to 20> Flushes 21 to 30> Flushes 31 to End> > --a great lil' thread about how some intrahepatic stones are formed:> http://curezone. com/forums/ am.asp?i= 1026067> > --The assertion that intrahepatic stones are formed in the digestive tract during a flush is a VERY common misperception (although understandable) . For decades people have been doing liver flushes and getting out stones that have been analyzed at laboratories, and found to be of 'hepatic origin'). Of course, in the lab results some do contain small amounts of oil/citrus, as most of the stones are not completely calcified, and travel through the digestive tract with the oil/citrus potion.> > --Dr. Kelley took his liver flush protocol from the archives of the prestigious Lahey Clinic in Boston (from the 1920's if I'm not mistaken). My mother-in-law was cured of Stage IV terminal liver cancer at Dr. Kelley's underground clinics and each patient was required to bring the 'flush results' to him for laboratory & microscopic analysis. She was required to do one liver flush weekly, as well as daily coffee enemas on her regime. (While this doesn't "prove" liver flushes are effective, most do consider Dr. Kelley's clinical experience to be worthy of consideration) .> > Knowledge is THE key to vibrant health!> > Blessings -> > Unyquity> > oleander soup, Mike Golden <goldenmike86@ ...> wrote:> >> > > > As I've already pointed out, conditions in the intestines and their contents are not the same every time you do a "flush". Sometimes you'll get accretion and sometimes you won't. If you feel better doing these it is because they temporarily and partially purge the bowel. (As in "Grannie's" dose of "salts". Good for what ails you.) The reduction in bacterial metabolites that the liver must deal with is temporarily reduced. This is basically how a high colonic works also. People are incorrectly attributing this to a direct effect on the liver itself.> > Magnesium sulphate has been used historically as a bowel purge. That is what you are experiencing. Upregulation of the liver's ability to function is more complicated than running some oil through it. It is not an inert pipe that needs flushing.> > > > Mike> > > > --- On Thu, 6/18/09, Mike V <mds9513@ > wrote:> > > > > > Mike V <mds9513@ >> > Re: Epsom salts questions> > oleander soup> > Thursday, June 18, 2009, 4:03 AM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have done a few of these flushes and if what you are saying is true, I should get stones every time. That's not the case however. Stones finished by the 5th flush. Flushes are definitely helpful. Just read the book written by Andreas Morris and understand what is all about. > > > > oleander soup, Mike Golden <goldenmike86@ ...> wrote:> > >> > > Those are not stones from the liver. They are accretions formed by mixing bile, mag sulphate and oil at body temperature. > > > > > > Mike> > > > > > --- On Tue, 6/16/09, Maracuja <howdurdago@ ...> wrote:> > > > > > > > > Maracuja <howdurdago@ ...>> > > Re: Re: Epsom salts questions> > > oleander soup> > > Tuesday, June 16, 2009, 10:45 AM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Very interesting. I have read of people who have had cholecystectomy, yet have still flushed and passed stones, presumably from the liver. I'm sorry I don't have a reference. I wish I had kept a note of the article! > > > Mara> > > > > > --- On Mon, 6/15/09, lillisilly wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I just wanted to say, I understand what you are saying here. My actual purpose in wanting to do the flush *was* to flush gall stones out of my gall bladder, even if it *is* called a liver flush. > > > Thanks for clarifying, though. It just underlines it for me. > > > Blessings, Jill~> > >> >>

June 23, 2009

I know very well what Bland has to say about pH. I was around when he was formulating UltraClear pH. His views are not different than mine. The body does regulate pH. It uses excretion as well as bicarbonate and other mineral buffers to do this. The pH does not change, the buffer ratios do. This is the reason dairy products are harmful to bone status. Constant exposure to high protein foods triggers the active dumping of calcium from the bones to buffer the physiology. Long term this can lead to osteoporosis. This is different than claiming you can "alkalize" the body to fight cancer. The body, until just before death, will do what it needs to to hold homeostasis around pH in variuos compartments. Go back and look. What I am

critical about is the constant measuring of salivary and urine pH as though you are getting some sort of useable data from that. You are not (with a few medical exceptions). Knowing that the urine is "acidic" tells you nothing. The urine reflects the pH of recently eaten foods, not the pH of the system. In fact, if you wanted to manipulate, temporarily albeit, the body pH the fastest route is fast panting like breathing versus long slow breaths. Continue with this and the body will render you unconscious so it can fix things again. mIt is smarter than you are with regard to regulation.

Mike

Mike V <mds9513oleander soup Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 2:17:15 PM Some truths about liver flushing - Re: Epsom salts questions

Its great that you respect Jeff Bland. Please look at his article: ACID-ALKALINE BALANCE: ROLE IN CHRONICDISEASE AND DETOXIFICATIONthis answers your previous opinion on how food plays no roll in acidity. As I recall you said that the body neutralizes everything.. oleander soup, Mike Golden <goldenmike86@ ...> wrote:>> Since it is a fairly complex subject, I think you should look online (Google) for articles by Jeff Bland, PhD.> Jeff was the director of research at the Linus Pauling Institute and is a decent, knowledgeable guy. He writes quite a bit about liver detoxification and the biochemical pathways involved. Jef writes some articles for professionals and some for lay people.> > Mike> > > > >

____________ _________ _________ __> daniel martin <danielnv.martin@ ...>> oleander soup> Monday, June 22, 2009 12:22:58 PM> Re: Some truths about liver flushing - Re: Epsom salts questions> > > > > > I find this discussion very interesting, as I have been doing liver> cleansing and have been considering the merits of doing a liver flush> at some point.> > I have previously done tons of parasite cleansing and have passed a> lot of liver flukes and juveniles. Of course I am but 1 person and> have no idea how common these things are in others. I also don't> exactly know whether they have been cleansed out of my liver, bile> duct, intestines,

etc.> > I would love it if you could elaborate on the phase 1 and phase 2> liver detox. FYI my interest in liver cleansing is mostly due the the> HIV meds I was on, and of course the environmental toxins.> > Thanks,> Daniel> > On 6/22/09, Mike Golden <goldenmike86@ > wrote:> > I've actually read both Gray's Anatomy and Guyton's Physiology from cover to> > cover. Have you? The link you posted has nothing but someone's opinion.> > They are not quoting Guyton or Gray.> > Your 5 years on the "liver" list exposes you to an environment in which> > people reinforce each other's opinions. Not entirely worthless, but not> > scientific. Liver flukes exist, but very few Americans actually have them,> > no matter what they believe. (Hopefully you won't quote H. Clark.)

Liver> > stones exist, but they are rare. People's belief that they have them is not> > relevant. If the internet existed 150 years ago you could spend 5 years on> > a list where patients and doctors alike discussed the merits of blood> > letting.> >> > Purging philosophies caught on early in Western medicine. Many of them have> > fallen by the wayside. Some of them have gathered steam with the advent of> > the internet. Hopefully this will correct itself as people learn that there> > is a big world of natural health care out there and that there are rational> > explanations behind productive therapies. However, if you go back and look> > at my original comments, you'll see that my point was that, even if these> > flushes did purge the liver (and I believe they do not), there are better> > ways to make the liver more

functional that are not extreme and are based in> > science.> >> > Mike> >> >> >> > ____________ _________ _________ __> > unyquity <yrrocks (AT) pcsia (DOT) net>> > oleander soup> > Saturday, June 20, 2009 7:33:22 AM> > Some truths about liver flushing - Re: Epsom salts> > questions> >> >> >> >> >> > I respectfully disagree that intrahepatic stones are rare, and I also> > disagree that pure oil goes directly into the liver.> >> > Yes the oil (like most food/nutrition) DOES go into the hepatic portal> > artery/system directly to the liver, but not before it has been mixed with> > bile, other digestive enzymes & gastric secretions and been> > digested/partially

digested. It's the stored bile in the liver released by> > the ingested oil that causes the action of the flush you don't believe in,> > not the oil running through the liver.> >> > The liver would not have to contract for intrahepatic stones to be expelled,> > anymore than a garden hose would need to contract for a dirt clog to be> > expelled (from water pressure behind it) - it's the bile coursing through> > the biliary network that pushes out the debris, biliary sludge and> > intrahepatic stones and gallstones.. .the contraction of the gallbladder is> > an "assist" here, but not at ALL necessary.> >> > In fact, MANY people without gallbladders do liver flushes and get out> > stones, liver flukes, and stones encrusted/embedded with liver flukes. These> > certainly didn't come from the gallbladder, nor could they have

possibly> > been randomly formed in the digestive tract. When dissecting the older> > stones, one can clearly see the layers, some with varying levels of> > calcification.> >> > I have been reading the Liver Flush forum on Curezone daily for over 5> > years, and I have seen FAR too many test/lab results that conclusively prove> > what I am saying to argue further (not to mention the works of Dr. Kelley).> > MANY people over the years have flushed the gallbladder free of stones in> > the first few flushes, confirmed it with HIDA scans and ultra sounds (and> > had the stones analyzed), yet continued on to get hundreds/thousands of> > stones from their livers (red, black, liver fluke encrusted & calcified),> > and seen consistent, positive improvements in their symptoms and> > bloodwork... whether one chooses to believe it

or not.> >> > Of course, cleansing debris from ANY organ isn't the only step required in> > healing an organ - but it IS an integral step. It's not unscientific, it's a> > simple as Gray's Anatomy & Guyton's Physiology:> > http://www.docsutte r.com/articles. php?cmd=view & id=39> >> > Healthiest of blessings -> >> > Unyquity> >> > oleander soup, Mike Golden <goldenmike86@ ...>> > wrote:> >>> >> Intrahepatic stones are rare. The people who report these green stones> >> following a flush report these things out of all proportion to the> >> frequency of intrahepatic stones. Also, these commonly reported stones> >> have been examined and found to be acretions and not expressed from

the> >> liver.> >> You are wrong about two other things. One...there is no mechanism for the> >> liver to express stones like the gall bladder does. The gall bladder is> >> contractile. The liver is not. Two....EVERYTHING we eat goes through the> >> liver first via the portal vein. This is called the portal hepatic> >> system. In fact, I will be talking about it next week in the college> >> physiology course which I teach. Oils do pass through it directly from> >> the organs of digestion. Those oil do not, though, benefit the liver in> >> any way in its ability to function.> >>> >> If you want to improve liver function you have to decrease the work load> >> on the liver temporarily and , at the same time provide dietary substrate> >> that supports both Pase One and Phase Two

detoxification pathways. This,> >> correctly done, will improve liver function over the course of two weeks.> >> This is verifiable by various clearence tests (caffeine clearence, for> >> example). Following this there will often be a dramatic improvement in> >> health and function.> >>> >> This approach is actually based on real science and not simplistic notions> >> concerning liver function.> >>> >> There was a time when patients and doctors alike claimed subjective health> >> benefits via a purging type approach. This went on for a long time and it> >> seemed to be based on "common sense". Unfortunately it was both> >> simplistic and nonproductive. It was called bloodletting. Look it up.> >>> >> Mike> >>> >>> >> >>

>> >> >> >>

June 23, 2009

Gunter,

I just wanted to reply to this once more. I think when I read it earlier I halucinated a "not" in your question. So...to clarify....the flush works for the gall bladder, but not for the liver.