Re : Doomed Carnivoire

May 18, 2009

As an encouragement to go vegetarian think about the urgent need for less meat to be produced. It is something like 80% of the grain grown in USA goes for animal feed I believe. Land is in short supply especially now that bio-fuels are being produced. More forest cut , more CO2 load and so forth. For our own health and economy we should bypass the animal stage and get protein more from veg sources. Eventually meat must become too expensive for most people and we will then be healthier! --- En date de : Lun 18.5.09, cherylcampbell55 <cheryl.s.campbell a écrit :

De: cherylcampbell55 <cheryl.s.campbellObjet: Doomed CarnivoireÀ: oleander soup Date: Lundi 18 Mai 2009, 7h01

I'm just wondering if any of you struggle as much as I do with avoiding animal protein? In going over my menu/diet sheet with my Naturopathic doc this week I pointed out to her that I generally have 4 oz. or less of organic/hormone- free chicken or fish at each evening meal and that I worry about it. She suggested that the ratio of 70% raw/vegan/alkaline to 30% acid/animal/ needs to be viewed over a 24 hour period and in that regard my menu looked fine. She was much more concerned about 'my worrying' about it and said feeling guilty about it had the potential to do far more harm. Any thoughts, comments, suggestions?Cheryl

May 19, 2009

We are in mid 60's and decided to just not eat meat---first we went Kosher but

still an animal had to be killed,for this reason I stopped.We just studied Lev.

in our Torah reading last month or so[no we are not Jewish] and now my husband

has stopped.My parents always owned a gro. store while growing up and lots of

meat and husband was a west-Texas steak person. It has been so easy --oh that

all in life was so!Don and Sandy

May 19, 2009

Hi Cheryl:

This is an issue that my husband and I have been confused by ever since he was

diagnosed w/ lymphoma 2 1/2 yrs ago. The issue for us is not whether we WANT to

eat meat, (we can take it or leave it)...but whether eating meat is detrimental

to everyone who has cancer. I am aware that the concensus of 99% of the experts

is that cancer patients should avoid animal products completely. One of the

best explanations for not eating meat is found in Andreas Moritz' book " Timeless

Secrets of Health and Rejuvenation " , a wonderful addition to your library.

So, the question is: is this exclusion of meat an across the board thing that

applies to everybody w/ cancer? There are those who are proponents of

individualizing our diets depending on " metabolic type " or blood type or

sympathetic/parasympathetic type. I have read that some w/ lymphoma had no

response until they switched to a high protein diet, esp meat and have been

cured because their body needed it and was built up by it.

So, I would like to throw this out there.

1- Has anyone been helped (or not) by eating according to metabolic type

(Mercola) or blood type or any other " type " !!

2- If animal proteins feed cancer, does this apply to ALL people, even though

they may be a " protein " type?

Marcia

oleander soup , Rupert Jameson <rupert.jameson wrote:

>

> As an encouragement to go vegetarian think about the urgent need for less meat

to be produced. It is something like 80% of the grain grown in USA goes for

animal feed I believe. Land is in short supply especially now that bio-fuels are

being produced. More forest cut , more CO2 load and so forth. For our own health

and economy we should bypass the animal stage and get protein more from veg

sources. Eventually meat must become too expensive for most people and we will

then be healthier!

>

> --- En date de : Lun 18.5.09, cherylcampbell55 <cheryl.s.campbell a

écrit :

>

> De: cherylcampbell55 <cheryl.s.campbell

> Objet: Doomed Carnivoire

> À: oleander soup

> Lundi 18 Mai 2009, 7h01

>

I'm just wondering if any of you struggle as much as I do with avoiding animal

protein? In going over my menu/diet sheet with my Naturopathic doc this week I

pointed out to her that I generally have 4 oz. or less of organic/hormone- free

chicken or fish at each evening meal and that I worry about it. She suggested

that the ratio of 70% raw/vegan/alkaline to 30% acid/animal/ needs to be viewed

over a 24 hour period and in that regard my menu looked fine. She was much more

concerned about 'my worrying' about it and said feeling guilty about it had the

potential to do far more harm. Any thoughts, comments, suggestions?

> Cheryl

>

May 19, 2009

Marcia, You asked, so I am going to offer up another opinion. ** I want to first preface that I wholehearted believe that each person has the right to choose what is right for them. I am in no way saying that this is thee correct way and unless you do this, then too bad, so sad. It is merely another option for people.- Dr. Weston Price (a dentist who devoted his adult life to studying traditional diets of indigenous peoples) found 14 societies of people where NO disease and no dental issues existed within their communities. They consisted of the Masai in Africa, the Gaels of the Outer Hebrides islands off of Scotland, the Swiss of the Loetschental Valley, the Eskimos of Alaska & Canada, and numerous places in Polynesia. The one

common denominator of all the various people was the fact that they all consumed animal foods that were particularly high in minerals and healthy animal fats - the fat soluble vitamins (that the animals obtained by eating grass or plankton). These foods were quite simple; butter, cream, and whole milk products, organ meats, lard from pigs raised outside, eggs from fowl raised outside, shellfish, fish eggs, wild oily fish, fish liver oils, and insects. He felt that the 2 biggest evils in the diet were refined sugar and white flour. He found that within one generation of a people incorporating refined sugar and white flour into their diet, they produced offspring that had changes in the shape of their dental arches, head, and face. Also infertility, miscarriages, difficult labor & births. Susceptibility to acute diseases - with a prevalence of tuberculosis, arthritis, cancer, and other chronic diseases. As long as

people stayed true to their traditional diet - there was no disease or dental issues. An entire community of people have been formed based on the principals of Dr. Price and offer education and support to help people return back to a diet of traditional foods. That is the Weston Price Organization. There are many statitics, studies, and testimonies from people who have proven that this in another viable option. A follow up study was done in the 1980's and published in The New England Journal of Medicine titled, "Paleolithic Nutrition". The study confirmed that even in the remaining hunter-gatherer societies today; that heart disease, high blood pressure,chronic intestinal disease, diabetes, and most types of cancers are virtually unknown. - There is a growing community of M.D.'s that are embracing traditional diets. Dr. Mercola, Dr. Thomas Cowan, Dr. Ron Schmid, and many, many

more. - Many of these doctors are also seeing many diseases relating back to the issues of grains. It is a known fact that lymphoma has an association with gluten/gliaden sensitivity. "Going Against the Grain" which was written by an M.D. shows that there are more that 80 diseases with a strong association to gluten/gliaden intolerance. Things such as depression, infertility, thyroid disease, heart disease, cancers, osteoporosis, obesity, etc ....... On average, it takes more than 10 years for a person in the U.S. to be properly diagnosis with gluten/gliaden intolerance. Think of all of the damage that can occur over that time period. So you see, it isn't quite as simple as animal protein causes cancer. That is an inaccurate statement. Do I think that conventionally raised meat, dairy, and eggs that have been raised in inhumane conditions, very mal-nourished themselves

(cows were meant to eat grass - not corn, stale bakery goods, or other animals) contribute to disease? You bet I do. As well as processed vegetable oils, so called "foods" that come out of boxes and cans, and other foods that have become quite removed from how they originally occured in nature. Lynesunlovernv <Marcia_Groganoleander soup Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 10:18:08 PMRe: Re :

Doomed Carnivoire

Hi Cheryl:

This is an issue that my husband and I have been confused by ever since he was diagnosed w/ lymphoma 2 1/2 yrs ago. The issue for us is not whether we WANT to eat meat, (we can take it or leave it)...but whether eating meat is detrimental to everyone who has cancer. I am aware that the concensus of 99% of the experts is that cancer patients should avoid animal products completely. One of the best explanations for not eating meat is found in Andreas Moritz' book "Timeless Secrets of Health and Rejuvenation" , a wonderful addition to your library.

So, the question is: is this exclusion of meat an across the board thing that applies to everybody w/ cancer? There are those who are proponents of individualizing our diets depending on "metabolic type" or blood type or sympathetic/ parasympathetic type. I have read that some w/ lymphoma had no response until they switched to a high protein diet, esp meat and have been cured because their body needed it and was built up by it.

So, I would like to throw this out there.

1- Has anyone been helped (or not) by eating according to metabolic type (Mercola) or blood type or any other "type"!!

2- If animal proteins feed cancer, does this apply to ALL people, even though they may be a "protein" type?

Marcia

oleander soup, Rupert Jameson <rupert.jameson@ ...> wrote:

>

> As an encouragement to go vegetarian think about the urgent need for less meat to be produced. It is something like 80% of the grain grown in USA goes for animal feed I believe. Land is in short supply especially now that bio-fuels are being produced. More forest cut , more CO2 load and so forth. For our own health and economy we should bypass the animal stage and get protein more from veg sources. Eventually meat must become too expensive for most people and we will then be healthier!

>

> --- En date de : Lun 18.5.09, cherylcampbell55 <cheryl.s.campbell@ ...> a écrit :

>

> De: cherylcampbell55 <cheryl.s.campbell@ ...>

> Objet: Doomed Carnivoire

> À: oleander soup

> Lundi 18 Mai 2009, 7h01

>

> I'm just wondering if any of you struggle as much as I do with avoiding animal protein? In going over my menu/diet sheet with my Naturopathic doc this week I pointed out to her that I generally have 4 oz. or less of organic/hormone- free chicken or fish at each evening meal and that I worry about it. She suggested that the ratio of 70% raw/vegan/alkaline to 30% acid/animal/ needs to be viewed over a 24 hour period and in that regard my menu looked fine. She was much more concerned about 'my worrying' about it and said feeling guilty about it had the potential to do far more harm. Any thoughts, comments, suggestions?

> Cheryl

>

May 19, 2009

Sunlovernv asks a good question, " is this exclusion of meat an across the board

thing that applies to everybody w/ cancer? " The answer is NO! There is no

ABSOLUTE exclusion to eating meat. I have suggested squab meat (baby pigeons)

for one patient (who raised pigeons) as the protein is easily digested and,

being a rare commodity, free from chemicals and hormones.

I wholeheartedly appreciate Tammatha (and others) passion about vegetarianism.

In an ideal world, with everything being equal, there would be no need to eat

animal products. I abhor the commercialization of our food supply today. It's a

real travesty on many fronts. Nevertheless, meat and other animal products are

viable and useful things for us to eat – when needed. (Yes, I agree. We as a

civilized people eat WAY TOO MUCH meat and animal products.)

I once lived on a ranch where we grew many of our own vegetables; I have cut the

heads off chickens; I've been up to my armpits in blood butchering animals (that

I raised and grew fond of). This was not done in a sadistic manner, but with

thanksgiving and prayer. This allowed my family to survive some very harsh

winters. However, we are no longer an agriculture society. We now get our foods

from `the store.' Very few people live on farms anymore.

Our `modern society' fosters cancers. MOST people would do well to eliminate

meat in their diet. However, some persons, for a number of reasons, may still

need animal protein and fats in their diet. As they heal and repair there will

come a time when they can safely transition to a more vegetarian diet.

Therefore, there is no one absolute diet for everyone. It's all a process.

My personal philosophy in eating meat is to use it sparingly, when needed. There

are times I crave a good steak or barbecued hamburger on the grill (way

carcinogenic BTW!) I can get away with it because I eat healthily and have no

immediate health concerns. I just try to keep things in perspective and

balanced. I would say I'm 80% vegetarian, more so in the summer, less in the

winter. We are stewards of our earth and everything on it. We are responsible to

protect our air, water, and food supplies. How unfortunate that profit and

ease-of-use comes first for most people. I cannot control `the world', but I can

control what I eat and where I get it. If you have specific dietary needs, then

by all means adjust to those needs. Strive to be vegetarian, but don't obsess

over it. Just keep a healthy respect for yourself and others.

Best always,

Dr. Michael L.

oleander soup , " sunlovernv " <Marcia_Grogan wrote:

>

> Hi Cheryl:

>

> This is an issue that my husband and I have been confused by ever since he was

diagnosed w/ lymphoma 2 1/2 yrs ago. The issue for us is not whether we WANT to

eat meat, (we can take it or leave it)...but whether eating meat is detrimental

to everyone who has cancer. I am aware that the concensus of 99% of the experts

is that cancer patients should avoid animal products completely. One of the

best explanations for not eating meat is found in Andreas Moritz' book " Timeless

Secrets of Health and Rejuvenation " , a wonderful addition to your library.

>

> So, the question is: is this exclusion of meat an across the board thing that

applies to everybody w/ cancer? There are those who are proponents of

individualizing our diets depending on " metabolic type " or blood type or

sympathetic/parasympathetic type. I have read that some w/ lymphoma had no

response until they switched to a high protein diet, esp meat and have been

cured because their body needed it and was built up by it.

>

> So, I would like to throw this out there.

>

> 1- Has anyone been helped (or not) by eating according to metabolic type

(Mercola) or blood type or any other " type " !!

>

> 2- If animal proteins feed cancer, does this apply to ALL people, even though

they may be a " protein " type?

>

> Marcia

>

> oleander soup , Rupert Jameson <rupert.jameson@> wrote:

> >

> > As an encouragement to go vegetarian think about the urgent need for less

meat to be produced. It is something like 80% of the grain grown in USA goes for

animal feed I believe. Land is in short supply especially now that bio-fuels are

being produced. More forest cut , more CO2 load and so forth. For our own health

and economy we should bypass the animal stage and get protein more from veg

sources. Eventually meat must become too expensive for most people and we will

then be healthier!

> >

> > --- En date de : Lun 18.5.09, cherylcampbell55 <cheryl.s.campbell@> a

écrit :

> >

> > De: cherylcampbell55 <cheryl.s.campbell@>

> > Objet: Doomed Carnivoire

> > À: oleander soup

> > Lundi 18 Mai 2009, 7h01

> >

> > I'm just wondering if any of you struggle as much as I do with avoiding

animal protein? In going over my menu/diet sheet with my Naturopathic doc this

week I pointed out to her that I generally have 4 oz. or less of

organic/hormone- free chicken or fish at each evening meal and that I worry

about it. She suggested that the ratio of 70% raw/vegan/alkaline to 30%

acid/animal/ needs to be viewed over a 24 hour period and in that regard my menu

looked fine. She was much more concerned about 'my worrying' about it and said

feeling guilty about it had the potential to do far more harm. Any thoughts,

comments, suggestions?

> > Cheryl

> >

>

May 19, 2009

Congratulations! We discovered that the reason for my daily migranes was

connected to eating flesh (Meat of any kind). It is so nice, since 1998, to be

well every day. I do not miss the migranes. My husband quit with me. He has

also found many health benefits. However, we have had our greatest eating

adventures sampling all the delicious foods available.

Bless you,

Karen

oleander soup , Sandy eubank <sandyeubank wrote:

>

> We are in mid 60's and decided to just not eat meat---first we went Kosher but

still an animal had to be killed,for this reason I stopped.We just studied Lev.

in our Torah reading last month or so[no we are not Jewish] and now my husband

has stopped.My parents always owned a gro. store while growing up and lots of

meat and husband was a west-Texas steak person. It has been so easy --oh that

all in life was so!Don and Sandy

>

May 20, 2009

Hello, I'm new to the group and have been reading the carnivore debate with some

interest. I've been vegetarian (not vegan) in the past (mid 70's - early 90's)

and have spent the remaining years eating what I could afford to pay for. That

would be the avg processed and prepackaged, convenience-food diet. Let's just

say that life was overwhelming. Then I got cancer. And that was *after* I

chose to clear away what was overwhelming and move back towards the lifestyle I

used to have!

In reference to this post about Dr Price:

For what it's worth, my grandfather was a patient of Dr Melvin Page, a

contemporary of Dr Price. Dr Page opened a clinic in Lake Wales, FL in the

'30s, and my grandfather was treated there after his MD's had failed to

successfully treat his life-threatening RA. Moving to FL was the only thing

they had left to suggest; he was dying.

Dr Price eliminated foods for which my grandfather had an intolerance, which

included seafood, white flour and sugar, dairy products, and most grains.

That's all I can think of right now. Anyway, some foods I never saw him eat,

some he was allowed very limited amounts within certain lengths of time, and

some foods were unrestricted. Unrestricted were lean meats, fresh fruits and

vegetables. When I knew him he was already more than a decade past that

treatment, healthy as a horse, strong as an ox and working on the railroad. He

retired to a 'hobby' farm. His decline and death came *after* he began breaking

dietary restrictions (in his 70's) and his RA flared up. Instead of getting

back on his diet, he took Prednisone. He died within a couple of years, after

that.

Dr Page also prescribed regular, naked sunbathing and vitamin supplementation.

Unknown to me at the time, my grandfather used homeopathic remedies, too. I

realized this when I tried to find a retail source for 'rhus tox', which he took

every year. And when I was taken, in my early teens, to a 'head doctor' (aka

'ear, nose and throat doc') for chronic, debilitating sinus infections, he

pronounced me allergic to refined sugars and prescribed hot tea, 1500mg of Vit C

(very controversial at that time) and removing those items from my diet. No

more Valentine or Easter candy for me! I have, in just the past two years,

actually had a physician tell me there is no such thing as an allergy to sugar.

heh I found another doc.

My grandparents never talked to me about what they knew regarding nutrition, but

I remember how careful they were to raise *grass-fed* black angus and that we

didn't have much packaged food in our house, though some consessions were made

for the kids in the house to have after-school snacks. Most of which I couldn't

eat!

Years later, as a young adult in the mid-70's, I became a vegetarian because I

couldn't afford to buy much besides oatmeal, beans, nuts, and fresh vegies. I

couldn't afford much of that either, and I stayed hungry for a couple of years!

LOL

As I developed a passion for how much healthier I felt, my grandparents just

listened. They didn't argue, except to caution that I be sure I got enough

protein. (I bought Gary Null's book, therafter.) Only after my grandmother

died, about 5 years ago, did I recieve the materials she had saved from Dr

Page's treatment of my grandfather. I was stunned at how much in tune with

today's 'leading edge' nutritional discoveries his philosophies and guidelines

were!

The truth is, that we are not carnivores; we are omnivores, with the genetic

code to grow teeth suitable for eating plants and animals and a digestive system

that goes with it. The question, for me, is not either/or but what is the

correct balance. And in my mind, how and what we eat is as much of a journey as

all of the other choices we make in life. Some of us make that choice once and

never need to make it again, except to 'tweak' as our bodies change...which they

continually do. For some of us - like me - the jouney contains many twists and

turns and a lot of re-evaluation.

I remember the years I was discovering that there was this different way to eat,

and I remember my passion was something I couldn't contain. I can still

prosyletize with the best of them, when I've discovered something new to me and

I want to share the benefits with everyone. But, now as a much more mellow

person even when passionate, I've chosen to see how precious it is to be able to

make my own choices for me, and respect that others must surely cherish the

ability to choose, too. I no longer invest myself so deeply in another person's

path, recognizing how many tangents and sidetrips I took to get to the path I'm

on today. I treasure my discoveries, and wouldn't deny anyone else the

opportunity to make their own discoveries. Ok, I admit it: I do get a little

pushy when it's a member of my immediate family. *g*

To my mind, we are all constrained by our individual circumstances and

resources. And those constraints and resources continually change. That

includes body chemistry and financial means, and everything between. I love the

idea of sharing my experience, and do sometimes come off as just a little *too*

sure that I *know* something, but my genuine intention is always that some part

of what I have to offer will help another. And that I might gain the same

benefit from another's experience.

Agreement is not required, consensus is not required. When it happens, it's

like 'icing on the cake'!

I don't know about whether I'll be able to try the oleander protocol, but I'm

interested in learning about it. And I'm pleased to see the discussion here

encompasses such a wide range of factors that affect health. It's been

fascinating, so far!

D'Ann

oleander soup , Lyne Seppala <pinkmartini62 wrote:

>

> Marcia,

> You asked, so I am going to offer up another opinion. ** I want to first

preface that I wholehearted believe that each person has the right to choose

what is right for them. I am in no way saying that this is thee correct way and

unless you do this, then too bad, so sad. It is merely another option for

people.

>

> - Dr. Weston Price (a dentist who devoted his adult life to studying

traditional diets of indigenous peoples) found 14 societies of people where NO

disease and no dental issues existed within their communities. They consisted

of the Masai in Africa, the Gaels of the Outer Hebrides islands off of Scotland,

the Swiss of the Loetschental Valley, the Eskimos of Alaska & Canada, and

numerous places in Polynesia. The one common denominator of all the various

people was the fact that they all consumed animal foods that were particularly

high in minerals and healthy animal fats - the fat soluble vitamins (that the

animals obtained by eating grass or plankton). These foods were quite simple;

butter, cream, and whole milk products, organ meats, lard from pigs raised

outside, eggs from fowl raised outside, shellfish, fish eggs, wild oily fish,

fish liver oils, and insects. He felt that the 2 biggest evils in the diet were

refined sugar and white flour. He found that within one generation of a people

incorporating refined sugar and white flour into their diet, they produced

offspring that had changes in the shape of their dental arches, head, and face.

Also infertility, miscarriages, difficult labor & births. Susceptibility to

acute diseases - with a prevalence of tuberculosis, arthritis, cancer, and other

chronic diseases. As long as people stayed true to their traditional diet -

there was no disease or dental issues.

>

> An entire community of people have been formed based on the principals of Dr.

Price and offer education and support to help people return back to a diet of

traditional foods. That is the Weston Price Organization. There are many

statitics, studies, and testimonies from people who have proven that this in

another viable option.

>

> A follow up study was done in the 1980's and published in The New England

Journal of Medicine titled, " Paleolithic Nutrition " . The study confirmed that

even in the remaining hunter-gatherer societies today; that heart disease, high

blood pressure,chronic intestinal disease, diabetes, and most types of cancers

are virtually unknown.

>

> - There is a growing community of M.D.'s that are embracing traditional diets.

Dr. Mercola, Dr. Thomas Cowan, Dr. Ron Schmid, and many, many more.

>

> - Many of these doctors are also seeing many diseases relating back to the

issues of grains. It is a known fact that lymphoma has an association with

gluten/gliaden sensitivity. " Going Against the Grain " which was written by an

M.D. shows that there are more that 80 diseases with a strong association to

gluten/gliaden intolerance. Things such as depression, infertility, thyroid

disease, heart disease, cancers, osteoporosis, obesity, etc ....... On

average, it takes more than 10 years for a person in the U.S. to be properly

diagnosis with gluten/gliaden intolerance. Think of all of the damage that can

occur over that time period.

>

> So you see, it isn't quite as simple as animal protein causes cancer. That

is an inaccurate statement. Do I think that conventionally raised meat, dairy,

and eggs that have been raised in inhumane conditions, very mal-nourished

themselves (cows were meant to eat grass - not corn, stale bakery goods, or

other animals) contribute to disease? You bet I do. As well as processed

vegetable oils, so called " foods " that come out of boxes and cans, and other

foods that have become quite removed from how they originally occured in nature.

>

> Lyne

May 20, 2009

Lyne: Thank you so much for your reply. As I said, this subject has been a

cause of much confusion since we began our " cancer " journey. I wholeheartedly

agree that " commercially " raised animals will absolutely cause cancer and it

makes me thoroughly sick to see the horrific way they are raised and treated.

When we were lst diagnosed, we eliminated all meat. Then I read a book called

" The Hidden Story of Cancer " by Brian Peskin. His long scientific book is based

on the research and studies of Dr. Otto Warburg on the causes of cancer. The

result, documented in his book, Peskin are similar to what you mentioned

regarding the meat eating societies. Then I became even more confused.

There is so much more to this subject than meets the eye. I am not making a

stand one way or the other. I am just trying to make sense of the many

conflicting opinions.

Mercola says " The China Study " is flawed:

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2006/02/23/why-the-china-stud\

y-is-flawed.aspx

This whole thing is making me crazy!!

oleander soup , Lyne Seppala <pinkmartini62 wrote:

>

> Marcia,

> You asked, so I am going to offer up another opinion. ** I want to first

preface that I wholehearted believe that each person has the right to choose

what is right for them. I am in no way s

aying that this is thee correct way and unless you do this, then too bad, so

sad. It is merely another option for people.