Guest guest Posted January 2, 2007 Report Share Posted January 2, 2007 I'm new to TCM, but have noticed as I've read through lots of messages here that it seems no mention is made of vegetarianism or veganism. I've been vegetarian for about 4 years, recently switching to veganism just a few months ago. I'm not strictly vegan yet as I'm sure I get a dose of eggs and dairy through things like bread, etc. I became vegetarian and eventually vegan due to personal ethics, not health reasons. The only reference I've found is the message I pasted below that came up in a search. Is there a book(s) that is available on TCM and implementing veganism that one can recommend? In TCM, is it not possible to become balanced and healthy being vegan? I realize that to get proper calcium, I must take pills, which I do (a calcium/magnesium mix). I do drink soy milk, but more on things like oatmeal and not every day. I also eat tofu regularly, and lots of beans and frequently nuts for protein sources. I'm careful to get enough protein, or I will get headaches, though I'm sure that in itself is a form of imbalance. However, that was occurring even when I ate animal products. Thanks, Tamara Vinod Kumar posted, nbr 6985 as below: Since I have recently been commenting on Yin defeciency I would like to make a comment that many might find controversial. In my experience many people who are vegetarians have difficulty rebuilding and supporting the Yin without some animal products. This subject has been discussed by many modern TCM practioners. One very common experience for vegetarians is that they get weaker and weaker on their diet. In fact many people who took up vegetarianism later in life never adapt well to it. Many of these people took up vegetarianism as a potential therapy for some health crisis they were suffering - which means they were possibly already facing many health challenges which had stressed the Yin. The vegetarian diet they are now following is not appropriate for their personal present needs. Please note that I am not making any criticism against vegetarian diet. I actually advocate vegetarianism for most people - but for ill people the needs may be for more Yin building substances. One issue is that perhaps the body needs more protein and or fat if it has been depleted - at least temporarily. Animal products eaten by ill people should be organic and unprocessed. If the digestion is very weak then meat and herbs can be cooked for long time (crock pot is good for this)and the broth made into soup or as a base for other dishes - in this case discard the meat and only take the broth. One of the most important things for hypometabolic people to remember is that they must not eat cold foods!!! This means cold in temperature or in energetics. This means that those suffering from weak digestion - low body temps - chronic water retention -reduced metabolism - phlegm disorders - etc. should not eat salads or raw foods in general. They must reduce the amount of fruit in general and be sure to only eat cooked fruit. Dr. Lu's and Paul Pitchfords books give the enegetics of common foods that have cold energetics (celery, cucumber and such)- there is some controversy on certain foods and on those one has to experiment to see how one does with that particular food. Raw food diet is contraindicated in hypometabolic people. Vegan diet often is too cool and draining for hypometabolic people. These cooling diets of course are further cooling to an already cold person - but most importantly these diets do not have suffecient 'substance' for weak and unstable people. There was a famous Yogi in India who gave only one instruction to those ill people of all catagories who consulted him 'Drink only warm water and only eat hot food' - for many this may sound simplistic - but for one who undestands the issues this advice is pure genius. Mild - warm - nourishing - substantial - easy to digest foods are the best way to stabalize an otherwise stressed body and nervous system. Metabolic typing is a very big subject but one that should be understood as it explains many difficult to understand issues. Examples are those vegetarians who are not thriving on their diet or meat eaters that also are not doing well no matter how 'good' they eat - metabolic typing often gives the answer to this. Some bodies need much more protein and purines than others - this is a genetic issue and can not be overcome. Some people are easily poisoned by fats some need more fats (including hydrogenated fats). Yet although we might have different needs from others still it will be possible for those with conflicting metabolisms to set down to a meal together. I mentioned Bob Flaw's book 'Arisal of the Clear' - this book gives guidelines for a diet that is almost universaly helpful for ill people. A meal prepared according to these guidelines can be eaten by most people. My wife is a great cook and has developed her own personal style of 'gourmet' mild diet. Many Chinese, Indian, and Japanese health conscious people have made 'healthy' diet into an art form. I recently returned from India, Thailand, and Japan where I ate sublime meals prepared by master cooks and chefs. I have a friend who is a Buddhist monk and eating in his monestary in Kyoto is a revelation in eating healthily and esthetically. Many think that mild healthy diet means boring diet - nothing could be further from the truth. My wife says that well prepared healthy food is the proper foundation for a happy and healthy life - I agree 100%. But will remind that diet is a 'science' and an 'art'. For those who do not have huge energy to prepare 'gourmet' meals then simple rice based diet with simple easily digested vegetables and small amounts of animal proteins. Beans and tofu are too gassy and cold - respectively - for hypometabolic people. Tofu prepared with garlic and ginger are OK unless one is too cold (under 97 degrees F). Do not forget small quantaties of good quality fats. Also large percentage of severely hypometabolic people have exhausted adrenals and should NOT!!! severly restrict salt. If one craves salt one should take some. So diet for severly hypometabolic people should be simple, warm, with no excessive tastes (spicy, sweet, bitter, etc.) with small amounts of good quality fats and some salt. Tamara In memory of Buck, Simien, Jaycee, JC kitten, & Rikki 5 new angels at The Rainbow Bridge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 3, 2007 Report Share Posted January 3, 2007 Tamara: I don't know of any books for you, but Vinod is not alone among professionals who believe that veganism leads to imbalances and thus poor health. From my experience, many professionals of Chinese medicine feel the same. Perhaps the lack of posts on the subject in the archives reflects general agreement with Vinod's post. A few years ago I believed as you do, but after some time decided to return to a diet that includes fish and meat. On the other hand, my Tui Na instructor advised students not to eat a lot of fish or meat, saying that too much can also cause problems. The key really is balance. Kind regards, Jack --- Tamara <savepawsfurever wrote: > I'm new to TCM, but have noticed as I've read > through lots of messages here that it seems no > mention is made of vegetarianism or veganism. I've > been vegetarian for about 4 years, recently > switching to veganism just a few months ago. I'm > not strictly vegan yet as I'm sure I get a dose of > eggs and dairy through things like bread, etc. I > became vegetarian and eventually vegan due to > personal ethics, not health reasons. > The only reference I've found is the message I > pasted below that came up in a search. Is there a > book(s) that is available on TCM and implementing > veganism that one can recommend? In TCM, is it not > possible to become balanced and healthy being vegan? > I realize that to get proper calcium, I must take > pills, which I do (a calcium/magnesium mix). I do > drink soy milk, but more on things like oatmeal and > not every day. I also eat tofu regularly, and lots > of beans and frequently nuts for protein sources. > I'm careful to get enough protein, or I will get > headaches, though I'm sure that in itself is a form > of imbalance. However, that was occurring even when > I ate animal products. > > Thanks, > > Tamara > > > Vinod Kumar posted, nbr 6985 as below: > > Since I have recently been commenting on Yin > defeciency I would like > to make a comment that many might find > controversial. In my > experience many people who are vegetarians have > difficulty rebuilding > and supporting the Yin without some animal products. > This subject has > been discussed by many modern TCM practioners. > > One very common experience for vegetarians is that > they get weaker > and weaker on their diet. In fact many people who > took up > vegetarianism later in life never adapt well to it. > Many of these > people took up vegetarianism as a potential therapy > for some health > crisis they were suffering - which means they were > possibly already > facing many health challenges which had stressed the > Yin. The > vegetarian diet they are now following is not > appropriate for their > personal present needs. Please note that I am not > making any > criticism against vegetarian diet. I actually > advocate vegetarianism > for most people - but for ill people the needs may > be for more Yin > building substances. One issue is that perhaps the > body needs more > protein and or fat if it has been depleted - at > least temporarily. > Animal products eaten by ill people should be > organic and > unprocessed. If the digestion is very weak then meat > and herbs can be > cooked for long time (crock pot is good for this)and > the broth made > into soup or as a base for other dishes - in this > case discard the > meat and only take the broth. > > One of the most important things for hypometabolic > people to remember > is that they must not eat cold foods!!! This means > cold in > temperature or in energetics. This means that those > suffering from > weak digestion - low body temps - chronic water > retention -reduced > metabolism - phlegm disorders - etc. should not eat > salads or raw > foods in general. They must reduce the amount of > fruit in general and > be sure to only eat cooked fruit. Dr. Lu's and Paul > Pitchfords books > give the enegetics of common foods that have cold > energetics (celery, > cucumber and such)- there is some controversy on > certain foods and on > those one has to experiment to see how one does with > that particular > food. Raw food diet is contraindicated in > hypometabolic people. Vegan > diet often is too cool and draining for > hypometabolic people. These > cooling diets of course are further cooling to an > already cold > person - but most importantly these diets do not > have > suffecient 'substance' for weak and unstable people. > There was a > famous Yogi in India who gave only one instruction > to those ill > people of all catagories who consulted him 'Drink > only warm water and > only eat hot food' - for many this may sound > simplistic - but for one > who undestands the issues this advice is pure > genius. > > Mild - warm - nourishing - substantial - easy to > digest foods are the > best way to stabalize an otherwise stressed body and > nervous system. > > Metabolic typing is a very big subject but one that > should be > understood as it explains many difficult to > understand issues. > Examples are those vegetarians who are not thriving > on their diet or > meat eaters that also are not doing well no matter > how 'good' they > eat - metabolic typing often gives the answer to > this. Some bodies > need much more protein and purines than others - > this is a genetic > issue and can not be overcome. Some people are > easily poisoned by > fats some need more fats (including hydrogenated > fats). Yet although > we might have different needs from others still it > will be possible > for those with conflicting metabolisms to set down > to a meal > together. I mentioned Bob Flaw's book 'Arisal of the > Clear' - this > book gives guidelines for a diet that is almost > universaly helpful > for ill people. A meal prepared according to these > guidelines can be > eaten by most people. > > My wife is a great cook and has developed her own > personal style > of 'gourmet' mild diet. Many Chinese, Indian, and > Japanese health > conscious people have made 'healthy' diet into an > art form. I > recently returned from India, Thailand, and Japan > where I ate sublime > meals prepared by master cooks and chefs. I have a > friend who is a > Buddhist monk and eating in his monestary in Kyoto > is a revelation in > eating healthily and esthetically. Many think that > mild healthy diet > means boring diet - nothing could be further from > the truth. My wife > says that well prepared healthy food is the proper > foundation for a > happy and healthy life - I agree 100%. But will > remind that diet is > a 'science' and an 'art'. For those who do not have > huge energy to > prepare 'gourmet' meals then simple rice based diet > with simple > easily digested vegetables and small amounts of > animal proteins. > Beans and tofu are too gassy and cold - respectively > - for > hypometabolic people. Tofu prepared with garlic and > ginger are OK > unless one is too cold (under 97 degrees F). Do not > forget small > quantaties of good quality fats. Also large > percentage of severely > hypometabolic people have exhausted adrenals and > should NOT!!! > severly restrict salt. If one craves salt one should > take some. > > So diet for severly hypometabolic people should be > simple, warm, with > no excessive tastes (spicy, sweet, bitter, etc.) > with small amounts > of good quality fats and some salt. > > > > Tamara > > In memory of Buck, Simien, Jaycee, JC kitten, & > Rikki > > 5 new angels at The Rainbow Bridge > > === message truncated === Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 3, 2007 Report Share Posted January 3, 2007 Jack, Thanks for the response. I'm thinking there must be a way to balance, or at least looking at the list of foods I've seen in the different categories (warm, cool, neutral, etc.) but I could be wrong in relation to TCM. If I were doing it for health reasons, that would be different, but it is because I believe in kindness for all creatures, so it is a belief system really. Are there any other diets, such as macrobiotic that is easy to balance by using TCM? I've seen some reference to diet therapies using TCM; I've seen reference to books by Bob Flaws that give info on diet. Is there a good TCM book that focuses on foods/diets that you can recommend? I realize that vegetarianism/veganism would not be the thrust, but I could certainly learn more about TCM and foods. Thanks again, Jack Sweeney <mojavecowboy wrote: Tamara: I don't know of any books for you, but Vinod is not alone among professionals who believe that veganism leads to imbalances and thus poor health. From my experience, many professionals of Chinese medicine feel the same. Perhaps the lack of posts on the subject in the archives reflects general agreement with Vinod's post. A few years ago I believed as you do, but after some time decided to return to a diet that includes fish and meat. On the other hand, my Tui Na instructor advised students not to eat a lot of fish or meat, saying that too much can also cause problems. The key really is balance. Kind regards, Jack --- Tamara <savepawsfurever wrote: > I'm new to TCM, but have noticed as I've read > through lots of messages here that it seems no > mention is made of vegetarianism or veganism. I've > been vegetarian for about 4 years, recently > switching to veganism just a few months ago. I'm > not strictly vegan yet as I'm sure I get a dose of > eggs and dairy through things like bread, etc. I > became vegetarian and eventually vegan due to > personal ethics, not health reasons. > The only reference I've found is the message I > pasted below that came up in a search. Is there a > book(s) that is available on TCM and implementing > veganism that one can recommend? In TCM, is it not > possible to become balanced and healthy being vegan? > I realize that to get proper calcium, I must take > pills, which I do (a calcium/magnesium mix). I do > drink soy milk, but more on things like oatmeal and > not every day. I also eat tofu regularly, and lots > of beans and frequently nuts for protein sources. > I'm careful to get enough protein, or I will get > headaches, though I'm sure that in itself is a form > of imbalance. However, that was occurring even when > I ate animal products. > > Thanks, > > Tamara > > > Vinod Kumar posted, nbr 6985 as below: > > Since I have recently been commenting on Yin > defeciency I would like > to make a comment that many might find > controversial. In my > experience many people who are vegetarians have > difficulty rebuilding > and supporting the Yin without some animal products. > This subject has > been discussed by many modern TCM practioners. > > One very common experience for vegetarians is that > they get weaker > and weaker on their diet. In fact many people who > took up > vegetarianism later in life never adapt well to it. > Many of these > people took up vegetarianism as a potential therapy > for some health > crisis they were suffering - which means they were > possibly already > facing many health challenges which had stressed the > Yin. The > vegetarian diet they are now following is not > appropriate for their > personal present needs. Please note that I am not > making any > criticism against vegetarian diet. I actually > advocate vegetarianism > for most people - but for ill people the needs may > be for more Yin > building substances. One issue is that perhaps the > body needs more > protein and or fat if it has been depleted - at > least temporarily. > Animal products eaten by ill people should be > organic and > unprocessed. If the digestion is very weak then meat > and herbs can be > cooked for long time (crock pot is good for this)and > the broth made > into soup or as a base for other dishes - in this > case discard the > meat and only take the broth. > > One of the most important things for hypometabolic > people to remember > is that they must not eat cold foods!!! This means > cold in > temperature or in energetics. This means that those > suffering from > weak digestion - low body temps - chronic water > retention -reduced > metabolism - phlegm disorders - etc. should not eat > salads or raw > foods in general. They must reduce the amount of > fruit in general and > be sure to only eat cooked fruit. Dr. Lu's and Paul > Pitchfords books > give the enegetics of common foods that have cold > energetics (celery, > cucumber and such)- there is some controversy on > certain foods and on > those one has to experiment to see how one does with > that particular > food. Raw food diet is contraindicated in > hypometabolic people. Vegan > diet often is too cool and draining for > hypometabolic people. These > cooling diets of course are further cooling to an > already cold > person - but most importantly these diets do not > have > suffecient 'substance' for weak and unstable people. > There was a > famous Yogi in India who gave only one instruction > to those ill > people of all catagories who consulted him 'Drink > only warm water and > only eat hot food' - for many this may sound > simplistic - but for one > who undestands the issues this advice is pure > genius. > > Mild - warm - nourishing - substantial - easy to > digest foods are the > best way to stabalize an otherwise stressed body and > nervous system. > > Metabolic typing is a very big subject but one that > should be > understood as it explains many difficult to > understand issues. > Examples are those vegetarians who are not thriving > on their diet or > meat eaters that also are not doing well no matter > how 'good' they > eat - metabolic typing often gives the answer to > this. Some bodies > need much more protein and purines than others - > this is a genetic > issue and can not be overcome. Some people are > easily poisoned by > fats some need more fats (including hydrogenated > fats). Yet although > we might have different needs from others still it > will be possible > for those with conflicting metabolisms to set down > to a meal > together. I mentioned Bob Flaw's book 'Arisal of the > Clear' - this > book gives guidelines for a diet that is almost > universaly helpful > for ill people. A meal prepared according to these > guidelines can be > eaten by most people. > > My wife is a great cook and has developed her own > personal style > of 'gourmet' mild diet. Many Chinese, Indian, and > Japanese health > conscious people have made 'healthy' diet into an > art form. I > recently returned from India, Thailand, and Japan > where I ate sublime > meals prepared by master cooks and chefs. I have a > friend who is a > Buddhist monk and eating in his monestary in Kyoto > is a revelation in > eating healthily and esthetically. Many think that > mild healthy diet > means boring diet - nothing could be further from > the truth. My wife > says that well prepared healthy food is the proper > foundation for a > happy and healthy life - I agree 100%. But will > remind that diet is > a 'science' and an 'art'. For those who do not have > huge energy to > prepare 'gourmet' meals then simple rice based diet > with simple > easily digested vegetables and small amounts of > animal proteins. > Beans and tofu are too gassy and cold - respectively > - for > hypometabolic people. Tofu prepared with garlic and > ginger are OK > unless one is too cold (under 97 degrees F). Do not > forget small > quantaties of good quality fats. Also large > percentage of severely > hypometabolic people have exhausted adrenals and > should NOT!!! > severly restrict salt. If one craves salt one should > take some. > > So diet for severly hypometabolic people should be > simple, warm, with > no excessive tastes (spicy, sweet, bitter, etc.) > with small amounts > of good quality fats and some salt. > > > > Tamara > > In memory of Buck, Simien, Jaycee, JC kitten, & > Rikki > > 5 new angels at The Rainbow Bridge > > === message truncated === Tamara " You, yourself, as much as anybody in the universe, deserve your love and affection. " -- Buddha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 Tamara: I don't really have any books in mind, but you can pretty much go with Bob Flaws. He does say, however, that he is just the translator, and he doesn't necessarily agree with the work in question, unless he explicitly states that he agrees or disagrees. Diet is an important part of Chinese medicine, there is the old saw that food is medicine and medine is regarded as food. I live in China and have eaten a Chinese diet for four years, and that automatically eliminates dairy, most wheat and other no-no's. In general, though, see what Bob Flaws has to say, and perhaps others on the list have suggestions? Kind regards, Jack --- Tamara <savepawsfurever wrote: > Jack, > Thanks for the response. I'm thinking there must > be a way to balance, or at least looking at the list > of foods I've seen in the different categories > (warm, cool, neutral, etc.) but I could be wrong in > relation to TCM. If I were doing it for health > reasons, that would be different, but it is because > I believe in kindness for all creatures, so it is a > belief system really. > Are there any other diets, such as macrobiotic > that is easy to balance by using TCM? I've seen > some reference to diet therapies using TCM; I've > seen reference to books by Bob Flaws that give info > on diet. Is there a good TCM book that focuses on > foods/diets that you can recommend? I realize that > vegetarianism/veganism would not be the thrust, but > I could certainly learn more about TCM and foods. > > Thanks again, > > > Jack Sweeney <mojavecowboy wrote: > Tamara: > > I don't know of any books for you, but Vinod is not > alone among professionals who believe that veganism > leads to imbalances and thus poor health. From my > experience, many professionals of Chinese medicine > feel the same. > > Perhaps the lack of posts on the subject in the > archives reflects general agreement with Vinod's > post. > > A few years ago I believed as you do, but after some > time decided to return to a diet that includes fish > and meat. > > On the other hand, my Tui Na instructor advised > students not to eat a lot of fish or meat, saying > that > too much can also cause problems. The key really is > balance. > > Kind regards, Jack > > --- Tamara <savepawsfurever wrote: > > > I'm new to TCM, but have noticed as I've read > > through lots of messages here that it seems no > > mention is made of vegetarianism or veganism. I've > > been vegetarian for about 4 years, recently > > switching to veganism just a few months ago. I'm > > not strictly vegan yet as I'm sure I get a dose of > > eggs and dairy through things like bread, etc. I > > became vegetarian and eventually vegan due to > > personal ethics, not health reasons. > > The only reference I've found is the message I > > pasted below that came up in a search. Is there a > > book(s) that is available on TCM and implementing > > veganism that one can recommend? In TCM, is it not > > possible to become balanced and healthy being > vegan? > > I realize that to get proper calcium, I must take > > pills, which I do (a calcium/magnesium mix). I do > > drink soy milk, but more on things like oatmeal > and > > not every day. I also eat tofu regularly, and lots > > of beans and frequently nuts for protein sources. > > I'm careful to get enough protein, or I will get > > headaches, though I'm sure that in itself is a > form > > of imbalance. However, that was occurring even > when > > I ate animal products. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Tamara > > > > > > Vinod Kumar posted, nbr 6985 as below: > > > > Since I have recently been commenting on Yin > > defeciency I would like > > to make a comment that many might find > > controversial. In my > > experience many people who are vegetarians have > > difficulty rebuilding > > and supporting the Yin without some animal > products. > > This subject has > > been discussed by many modern TCM practioners. > > > > One very common experience for vegetarians is that > > they get weaker > > and weaker on their diet. In fact many people who > > took up > > vegetarianism later in life never adapt well to > it. > > Many of these > > people took up vegetarianism as a potential > therapy > > for some health > > crisis they were suffering - which means they were > > possibly already > > facing many health challenges which had stressed > the > > Yin. The > > vegetarian diet they are now following is not > > appropriate for their > > personal present needs. Please note that I am not > > making any > > criticism against vegetarian diet. I actually > > advocate vegetarianism > > for most people - but for ill people the needs may > > be for more Yin > > building substances. One issue is that perhaps the > > body needs more > > protein and or fat if it has been depleted - at > > least temporarily. > > Animal products eaten by ill people should be > > organic and > > unprocessed. If the digestion is very weak then > meat > > and herbs can be > > cooked for long time (crock pot is good for > this)and > > the broth made > > into soup or as a base for other dishes - in this > > case discard the > > meat and only take the broth. > > > > One of the most important things for hypometabolic > > people to remember > > is that they must not eat cold foods!!! This means > > cold in > > temperature or in energetics. This means that > those > > suffering from > > weak digestion - low body temps - chronic water > > retention -reduced > > metabolism - phlegm disorders - etc. should not > eat > > salads or raw > > foods in general. They must reduce the amount of > > fruit in general and > > be sure to only eat cooked fruit. Dr. Lu's and > Paul > > Pitchfords books > > give the enegetics of common foods that have cold > > energetics (celery, > > cucumber and such)- there is some controversy on > > certain foods and on > > those one has to experiment to see how one does > with > > that particular > > food. Raw food diet is contraindicated in > > hypometabolic people. Vegan > > diet often is too cool and draining for > > hypometabolic people. These > > cooling diets of course are further cooling to an > > already cold > > person - but most importantly these diets do not > > have > > suffecient 'substance' for weak and unstable > people. > > There was a > > famous Yogi in India who gave only one instruction > > to those ill > > people of all catagories who consulted him 'Drink > > only warm water and > > only eat hot food' - for many this may sound > > simplistic - but for one > > who undestands the issues this advice is pure > > genius. > > > > Mild - warm - nourishing - substantial - easy to > > digest foods are the > > best way to stabalize an otherwise stressed body > and > > nervous system. > > > > Metabolic typing is a very big subject but one > that > > should be > > understood as it explains many difficult to > > understand issues. > > Examples are those vegetarians who are not > thriving > > on their diet or > > meat eaters that also are not doing well no matter > > how 'good' they > > eat - metabolic typing often gives the answer to > > this. Some bodies > > need much more protein and purines than others - > > this is a genetic > > issue and can not be overcome. Some people are > > easily poisoned by > > fats some need more fats (including hydrogenated > > fats). Yet although > === message truncated === Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 Hi Tamara. (minor rant warning, be advised) In any profession there is a problem with something caled the " status quo " . This problem exists because of the human mind, which we are all blessed and cursed with. The " status quo " is a good way for people to rest on their laurels. A status quo in is to say that a little meat is good, and no meat leads to imbalance (weakness is what they mean). We do not find such clear statements about too much meat, likely because there is a bias (perhaps for good reason) against deficiency diseases. (Eating too much meat and developing an excess type imbalance /can/ be easier to treat than eating no meat and developing a deficiency type imbalance). It is true that given certain factors, vegetarianism can be hard on the body. It is also true that humans are more violent the more meat they eat. It is true that the CM profession states that meat is necessary to avoid qi and blood depletion. It is also true that the Daoist sages taught to eat life-prolonging herbs, vegetables, and, once in a while, a /little/ bit of fish. Many people disparage the sages saying that their regimen is unrealistic or impractical. Yet, as we all know, eating meat, developing coarse energy, burning the rainforests for cattle space, stressing about everything and eating much more than we need is very practical, and, in fact, realistic. It " works " . It really does. The fact of the matter is that you can eat a vegetarian diet (which, please, means eating plant matter. " Veganism " is an excuse for " vegetarians " who want to eat meat or animal products.) and be healthy. The fact is also that you will have a smaller buffer with which to deal with disease. In other words, eating a vegetarian diet means you will have to be more responsive, more aware, and more disciplined about your life. All good things. And of course, those are all bad things if you're not going to do them. Because then you'll be like the " vegetarians " who, bless their hearts, out of goodness for others and lack of love for themselves, eat kraft dinner every night. As a vegetarian, i.e. someone on a low energy diet, you will have to strike a balance between the following very important things: 1. Climate. A cold climate is going to deplete your yang like crazy. Meat is Yang, Plants are not. 2. Activity level. High activity will deplete your energy. Meat gives you lots of energy, Plants do not. 3. Stress level. Stress will burn you out faster than anything. Again, Meat provides large amounts of Qi and Blood forming substances, plants do not. 4. Discipline. Lack of said discipline will lead to inefficient body functions, depletion of energy etc. Good Discipline, on the other hand, will make you efficient, conserve your energy and teach you how to avoid abusing yourself. 5. Proper understanding. Know the wrong things and you'll do the wrong things. Know the right things and, supposedly, you'll do the right things. What I am trying to get at is that a vegetarian lifestyle is very possible, if you know what you are doing. Do not damage yourself in the learning process and give up in the end because " it didn't work " . There are many many many successful vegetarians in every climate (except the arctic regions). And, yes, it is easier to do in warm climates. It's also easier to do if you're a stocky person to begin with. So, last caveat: if you are skinny (not slim), have been fatigued for a long time, and stress out or get anxious easily: Take some help from your furry friends and eat them. You can go back to your Heart diet when you have gained enough strength. Be careful to not buy into one of the " West's " products: inflexibility. You must adapt and flow with what your life is giving you. Your life, for example, may be saying, " a little bit of meat now, so that you can abstain from meat later " . Be flexible with your mind. Hope that helps. Hugo --- Tamara <savepawsfurever wrote: > Jack, > Thanks for the response. I'm thinking there must > be a way to balance, or at least looking at the list > of foods I've seen in the different categories > (warm, cool, neutral, etc.) but I could be wrong in > relation to TCM. If I were doing it for health > reasons, that would be different, but it is because > I believe in kindness for all creatures, so it is a > belief system really. > Are there any other diets, such as macrobiotic > that is easy to balance by using TCM? I've seen > some reference to diet therapies using TCM; I've > seen reference to books by Bob Flaws that give info > on diet. Is there a good TCM book that focuses on > foods/diets that you can recommend? I realize that > vegetarianism/veganism would not be the thrust, but > I could certainly learn more about TCM and foods. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 Thanks again, Jack. I'll check him out. So, does the Chinese standard diet make one balanced, or are they having the same problems as the Americas (fast food, sugar, junk)? Just curious what the majority eats there and if it's a good, balanced diet. And I do agree that food is the most important " medicine " we can put in our bodies. Jack Sweeney <mojavecowboy wrote: Tamara: I don't really have any books in mind, but you can pretty much go with Bob Flaws. He does say, however, that he is just the translator, and he doesn't necessarily agree with the work in question, unless he explicitly states that he agrees or disagrees. Diet is an important part of Chinese medicine, there is the old saw that food is medicine and medine is regarded as food. I live in China and have eaten a Chinese diet for four years, and that automatically eliminates dairy, most wheat and other no-no's. In general, though, see what Bob Flaws has to say, and perhaps others on the list have suggestions? Kind regards, Jack --- Tamara <savepawsfurever wrote: > Jack, > Thanks for the response. I'm thinking there must > be a way to balance, or at least looking at the list > of foods I've seen in the different categories > (warm, cool, neutral, etc.) but I could be wrong in > relation to TCM. If I were doing it for health > reasons, that would be different, but it is because > I believe in kindness for all creatures, so it is a > belief system really. > Are there any other diets, such as macrobiotic > that is easy to balance by using TCM? I've seen > some reference to diet therapies using TCM; I've > seen reference to books by Bob Flaws that give info > on diet. Is there a good TCM book that focuses on > foods/diets that you can recommend? I realize that > vegetarianism/veganism would not be the thrust, but > I could certainly learn more about TCM and foods. > > Thanks again, > > > Jack Sweeney <mojavecowboy wrote: > Tamara: > > I don't know of any books for you, but Vinod is not > alone among professionals who believe that veganism > leads to imbalances and thus poor health. From my > experience, many professionals of Chinese medicine > feel the same. > > Perhaps the lack of posts on the subject in the > archives reflects general agreement with Vinod's > post. > > A few years ago I believed as you do, but after some > time decided to return to a diet that includes fish > and meat. > > On the other hand, my Tui Na instructor advised > students not to eat a lot of fish or meat, saying > that > too much can also cause problems. The key really is > balance. > > Kind regards, Jack > > --- Tamara <savepawsfurever wrote: > > > I'm new to TCM, but have noticed as I've read > > through lots of messages here that it seems no > > mention is made of vegetarianism or veganism. I've > > been vegetarian for about 4 years, recently > > switching to veganism just a few months ago. I'm > > not strictly vegan yet as I'm sure I get a dose of > > eggs and dairy through things like bread, etc. I > > became vegetarian and eventually vegan due to > > personal ethics, not health reasons. > > The only reference I've found is the message I > > pasted below that came up in a search. Is there a > > book(s) that is available on TCM and implementing > > veganism that one can recommend? In TCM, is it not > > possible to become balanced and healthy being > vegan? > > I realize that to get proper calcium, I must take > > pills, which I do (a calcium/magnesium mix). I do > > drink soy milk, but more on things like oatmeal > and > > not every day. I also eat tofu regularly, and lots > > of beans and frequently nuts for protein sources. > > I'm careful to get enough protein, or I will get > > headaches, though I'm sure that in itself is a > form > > of imbalance. However, that was occurring even > when > > I ate animal products. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Tamara > > > > > > Vinod Kumar posted, nbr 6985 as below: > > > > Since I have recently been commenting on Yin > > defeciency I would like > > to make a comment that many might find > > controversial. In my > > experience many people who are vegetarians have > > difficulty rebuilding > > and supporting the Yin without some animal > products. > > This subject has > > been discussed by many modern TCM practioners. > > > > One very common experience for vegetarians is that > > they get weaker > > and weaker on their diet. In fact many people who > > took up > > vegetarianism later in life never adapt well to > it. > > Many of these > > people took up vegetarianism as a potential > therapy > > for some health > > crisis they were suffering - which means they were > > possibly already > > facing many health challenges which had stressed > the > > Yin. The > > vegetarian diet they are now following is not > > appropriate for their > > personal present needs. Please note that I am not > > making any > > criticism against vegetarian diet. I actually > > advocate vegetarianism > > for most people - but for ill people the needs may > > be for more Yin > > building substances. One issue is that perhaps the > > body needs more > > protein and or fat if it has been depleted - at > > least temporarily. > > Animal products eaten by ill people should be > > organic and > > unprocessed. If the digestion is very weak then > meat > > and herbs can be > > cooked for long time (crock pot is good for > this)and > > the broth made > > into soup or as a base for other dishes - in this > > case discard the > > meat and only take the broth. > > > > One of the most important things for hypometabolic > > people to remember > > is that they must not eat cold foods!!! This means > > cold in > > temperature or in energetics. This means that > those > > suffering from > > weak digestion - low body temps - chronic water > > retention -reduced > > metabolism - phlegm disorders - etc. should not > eat > > salads or raw > > foods in general. They must reduce the amount of > > fruit in general and > > be sure to only eat cooked fruit. Dr. Lu's and > Paul > > Pitchfords books > > give the enegetics of common foods that have cold > > energetics (celery, > > cucumber and such)- there is some controversy on > > certain foods and on > > those one has to experiment to see how one does > with > > that particular > > food. Raw food diet is contraindicated in > > hypometabolic people. Vegan > > diet often is too cool and draining for > > hypometabolic people. These > > cooling diets of course are further cooling to an > > already cold > > person - but most importantly these diets do not > > have > > suffecient 'substance' for weak and unstable > people. > > There was a > > famous Yogi in India who gave only one instruction > > to those ill > > people of all catagories who consulted him 'Drink > > only warm water and > > only eat hot food' - for many this may sound > > simplistic - but for one > > who undestands the issues this advice is pure > > genius. > > > > Mild - warm - nourishing - substantial - easy to > > digest foods are the > > best way to stabalize an otherwise stressed body > and > > nervous system. > > > > Metabolic typing is a very big subject but one > that > > should be > > understood as it explains many difficult to > > understand issues. > > Examples are those vegetarians who are not > thriving > > on their diet or > > meat eaters that also are not doing well no matter > > how 'good' they > > eat - metabolic typing often gives the answer to > > this. Some bodies > > need much more protein and purines than others - > > this is a genetic > > issue and can not be overcome. Some people are > > easily poisoned by > > fats some need more fats (including hydrogenated > > fats). Yet although > === message truncated === Tamara " You, yourself, as much as anybody in the universe, deserve your love and affection. " -- Buddha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 Hugo, I love rants--if it weren't for my own soapboxes, I'd have no place to stand, LOL. I agree with what you say, except that vegetarians eat animal products because they still consume dairy. Vegans eat NO animal products, which means no dairy, and no other " hidden " animal products in anything that is not a whole food (i.e. processed, restaurant, etc.). Being a vegan means you have to be a detective of sorts, reading every single ingredient and knowing what it really is. One of the 1st realizations that we are mislead often by the food industry (at least here in the U.S.) is I was switching from the half & half creamers when I drank coffee from a restaurant (at home I used soy milk) and was going to switch to those horrible " non dairy creamers " or whiteners as they're often now called. When reading the ingredients, one said it was a milk derivative--how is that non- dairy?! So I guess in that way I'm inflexible, but I'm very open to trying non-animal foods. As far as my own health, I'm in the process of searching out a TCM practitioner, as I'm overweight, stressed, and suffer from adult acne, clinical depression, and have some disc injuries. Having had Hepatitis when I was 16 (type A) my liver is most likely the problem here, but with chronic illness, I would never dare treat myself. I am prepared for the TCM doctor to scoff at my veganism. However, if we all thought the same how boring would that be? Thanks for the post--it contains lots of illuminating thoughts. Chinese Traditional Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > Hi Tamara. > > (minor rant warning, be advised) > > In any profession there is a problem with something > caled the " status quo " . This problem exists because of > the human mind, which we are all blessed and cursed > with. The " status quo " is a good way for people to > rest on their laurels. > > A status quo in is to say that a > little meat is good, and no meat leads to imbalance > (weakness is what they mean). We do not find such > clear statements about too much meat, likely because > there is a bias (perhaps for good reason) against > deficiency diseases. (Eating too much meat and > developing an excess type imbalance /can/ be easier to > treat than eating no meat and developing a deficiency > type imbalance). > > It is true that given certain factors, vegetarianism > can be hard on the body. It is also true that humans > are more violent the more meat they eat. It is true > that the CM profession states that meat is necessary > to avoid qi and blood depletion. It is also true that > the Daoist sages taught to eat life-prolonging herbs, > vegetables, and, once in a while, a /little/ bit of > fish. Many people disparage the sages saying that > their regimen is unrealistic or impractical. Yet, as > we all know, eating meat, developing coarse energy, > burning the rainforests for cattle space, stressing > about everything and eating much more than we need is > very practical, and, in fact, realistic. It " works " . > It really does. > > The fact of the matter is that you can eat a > vegetarian diet (which, please, means eating plant > matter. " Veganism " is an excuse for " vegetarians " who > want to eat meat or animal products.) and be healthy. > The fact is also that you will have a smaller buffer > with which to deal with disease. In other words, > eating a vegetarian diet means you will have to be > more responsive, more aware, and more disciplined > about your life. All good things. And of course, those > are all bad things if you're not going to do them. > Because then you'll be like the " vegetarians " who, > bless their hearts, out of goodness for others and > lack of love for themselves, eat kraft dinner every > night. > > As a vegetarian, i.e. someone on a low energy diet, > you will have to strike a balance between the > following very important things: > 1. Climate. A cold climate is going to deplete your > yang like crazy. Meat is Yang, Plants are not. > 2. Activity level. High activity will deplete your > energy. Meat gives you lots of energy, Plants do not. > 3. Stress level. Stress will burn you out faster than > anything. Again, Meat provides large amounts of Qi and > Blood forming substances, plants do not. > 4. Discipline. Lack of said discipline will lead to > inefficient body functions, depletion of energy etc. > Good Discipline, on the other hand, will make you > efficient, conserve your energy and teach you how to > avoid abusing yourself. > 5. Proper understanding. Know the wrong things and > you'll do the wrong things. Know the right things and, > supposedly, you'll do the right things. > > What I am trying to get at is that a vegetarian > lifestyle is very possible, if you know what you are > doing. Do not damage yourself in the learning process > and give up in the end because " it didn't work " . There > are many many many successful vegetarians in every > climate (except the arctic regions). And, yes, it is > easier to do in warm climates. It's also easier to do > if you're a stocky person to begin with. > > So, last caveat: if you are skinny (not slim), have > been fatigued for a long time, and stress out or get > anxious easily: Take some help from your furry friends > and eat them. You can go back to your Heart diet when > you have gained enough strength. Be careful to not buy > into one of the " West's " products: inflexibility. You > must adapt and flow with what your life is giving you. > Your life, for example, may be saying, " a little bit > of meat now, so that you can abstain from meat later " . > Be flexible with your mind. > > Hope that helps. > Hugo > > > > --- Tamara <savepawsfurever wrote: > > > Jack, > > Thanks for the response. I'm thinking there must > > be a way to balance, or at least looking at the list > > of foods I've seen in the different categories > > (warm, cool, neutral, etc.) but I could be wrong in > > relation to TCM. If I were doing it for health > > reasons, that would be different, but it is because > > I believe in kindness for all creatures, so it is a > > belief system really. > > Are there any other diets, such as macrobiotic > > that is easy to balance by using TCM? I've seen > > some reference to diet therapies using TCM; I've > > seen reference to books by Bob Flaws that give info > > on diet. Is there a good TCM book that focuses on > > foods/diets that you can recommend? I realize that > > vegetarianism/veganism would not be the thrust, but > > I could certainly learn more about TCM and foods. > > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 Tamara: In general most Chinese still go to the market almost daily and buy fresh vegetables, etc. Spoiled or rotten or aged food just doesn't sell. Cuisine varies according to the province. Even so, SUV's, Coke, Pepsi, supermarkets, McDonald's and KFC are making their inroads, along with microwaves and even Starbucks. The general idea among Chinese, especially the younger generations, is that consumption of such foods will make them more Western and hence modern. Western fast food cost 2-3 times that of Chinese, but the fast food stores are always jammed. Most Chinese expect China to become the dominant world power sometime within the next twenty to fifty years, so they are trying to become more American than Americans. If current westernization trends continue, Chinese will be just as obese and have similar health problems as Americans now have, in a decade or so. They've already got a generation of " Little Emperors, " and its possible to see fat little kids here and there. Beyond that, though, 66% of the men smoke, and there is little to discourage them from doing so. At least Americans have quit smoking. Kind regards, Jack --- Tamara <savepawsfurever wrote: > Thanks again, Jack. I'll check him out. > So, does the Chinese standard diet make one > balanced, or are they having the same problems as > the Americas (fast food, sugar, junk)? Just curious > what the majority eats there and if it's a good, > balanced diet. > And I do agree that food is the most important > " medicine " we can put in our bodies. > > Jack Sweeney <mojavecowboy wrote: > Tamara: > > I don't really have any books in mind, but you can > pretty much go with Bob Flaws. He does say, however, > that he is just the translator, and he doesn't > necessarily agree with the work in question, unless > he > explicitly states that he agrees or disagrees. > > Diet is an important part of Chinese medicine, there > is the old saw that food is medicine and medine is > regarded as food. > > I live in China and have eaten a Chinese diet for > four > years, and that automatically eliminates dairy, most > wheat and other no-no's. > > In general, though, see what Bob Flaws has to say, > and > perhaps others on the list have suggestions? > > Kind regards, Jack > > --- Tamara <savepawsfurever wrote: > > > Jack, > > Thanks for the response. I'm thinking there must > > be a way to balance, or at least looking at the > list > > of foods I've seen in the different categories > > (warm, cool, neutral, etc.) but I could be wrong > in > > relation to TCM. If I were doing it for health > > reasons, that would be different, but it is > because > > I believe in kindness for all creatures, so it is > a > > belief system really. > > Are there any other diets, such as macrobiotic > > that is easy to balance by using TCM? I've seen > > some reference to diet therapies using TCM; I've > > seen reference to books by Bob Flaws that give > info > > on diet. Is there a good TCM book that focuses on > > foods/diets that you can recommend? I realize that > > vegetarianism/veganism would not be the thrust, > but > > I could certainly learn more about TCM and foods. > > > > Thanks again, > > > > > > Jack Sweeney <mojavecowboy wrote: > > Tamara: > > > > I don't know of any books for you, but Vinod is > not > > alone among professionals who believe that > veganism > > leads to imbalances and thus poor health. From my > > experience, many professionals of Chinese medicine > > feel the same. > > > > Perhaps the lack of posts on the subject in the > > archives reflects general agreement with Vinod's > > post. > > > > A few years ago I believed as you do, but after > some > > time decided to return to a diet that includes > fish > > and meat. > > > > On the other hand, my Tui Na instructor advised > > students not to eat a lot of fish or meat, saying > > that > > too much can also cause problems. The key really > is > > balance. > > > > Kind regards, Jack > > > > --- Tamara <savepawsfurever wrote: > > > > > I'm new to TCM, but have noticed as I've read > > > through lots of messages here that it seems no > > > mention is made of vegetarianism or veganism. > I've > > > been vegetarian for about 4 years, recently > > > switching to veganism just a few months ago. I'm > > > not strictly vegan yet as I'm sure I get a dose > of > > > eggs and dairy through things like bread, etc. I > > > became vegetarian and eventually vegan due to > > > personal ethics, not health reasons. > > > The only reference I've found is the message I > > > pasted below that came up in a search. Is there > a > > > book(s) that is available on TCM and > implementing > > > veganism that one can recommend? In TCM, is it > not > > > possible to become balanced and healthy being > > vegan? > > > I realize that to get proper calcium, I must > take > > > pills, which I do (a calcium/magnesium mix). I > do > > > drink soy milk, but more on things like oatmeal > > and > > > not every day. I also eat tofu regularly, and > lots > > > of beans and frequently nuts for protein > sources. > > > I'm careful to get enough protein, or I will get > > > headaches, though I'm sure that in itself is a > > form > > > of imbalance. However, that was occurring even > > when > > > I ate animal products. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Tamara > > > > > > > > > Vinod Kumar posted, nbr 6985 as below: > > > > > > Since I have recently been commenting on Yin > > > defeciency I would like > > > to make a comment that many might find > > > controversial. In my > > > experience many people who are vegetarians have > > > difficulty rebuilding > > > and supporting the Yin without some animal > > products. > > > This subject has > > > been discussed by many modern TCM practioners. > > > > > > One very common experience for vegetarians is > that > > > they get weaker > > > and weaker on their diet. In fact many people > who > > > took up > > > vegetarianism later in life never adapt well to > > it. > > > Many of these > > > people took up vegetarianism as a potential > > therapy > > > for some health > > > crisis they were suffering - which means they > were > > > possibly already > > > facing many health challenges which had stressed > > the > > > Yin. The > > > vegetarian diet they are now following is not > > > appropriate for their > > > personal present needs. Please note that I am > not > > > making any > > > criticism against vegetarian diet. I actually > > > advocate vegetarianism > > > for most people - but for ill people the needs > may > > > be for more Yin > > > building substances. One issue is that perhaps > the > > > body needs more > > > protein and or fat if it has been depleted - at > > > least temporarily. > > > Animal products eaten by ill people should be > > > organic and > > > unprocessed. If the digestion is very weak then > > meat > > > and herbs can be > > > cooked for long time (crock pot is good for > > this)and > > > the broth made > > > into soup or as a base for other dishes - in > this > > > case discard the > > > meat and only take the broth. > > > > > > One of the most important things for > hypometabolic > > > people to remember > > > is that they must not eat cold foods!!! This > means > === message truncated === Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 Just one little note: Americans haven't quit smoking. It was a trend for a while, but unfortunately due to hip movies and cute camels, a whole new up and coming generation is hooked. Michelle - Jack Sweeney Chinese Traditional Medicine Thursday, January 04, 2007 5:39 PM Re: [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Veganism and TCM Tamara: In general most Chinese still go to the market almost daily and buy fresh vegetables, etc. Spoiled or rotten or aged food just doesn't sell. Cuisine varies according to the province. Even so, SUV's, Coke, Pepsi, supermarkets, McDonald's and KFC are making their inroads, along with microwaves and even Starbucks. The general idea among Chinese, especially the younger generations, is that consumption of such foods will make them more Western and hence modern. Western fast food cost 2-3 times that of Chinese, but the fast food stores are always jammed. Most Chinese expect China to become the dominant world power sometime within the next twenty to fifty years, so they are trying to become more American than Americans. If current westernization trends continue, Chinese will be just as obese and have similar health problems as Americans now have, in a decade or so. They've already got a generation of " Little Emperors, " and its possible to see fat little kids here and there. Beyond that, though, 66% of the men smoke, and there is little to discourage them from doing so. At least Americans have quit smoking. Kind regards, Jack --- Tamara <savepawsfurever wrote: > Thanks again, Jack. I'll check him out. > So, does the Chinese standard diet make one > balanced, or are they having the same problems as > the Americas (fast food, sugar, junk)? Just curious > what the majority eats there and if it's a good, > balanced diet. > And I do agree that food is the most important > " medicine " we can put in our bodies. > > Jack Sweeney <mojavecowboy wrote: > Tamara: > > I don't really have any books in mind, but you can > pretty much go with Bob Flaws. He does say, however, > that he is just the translator, and he doesn't > necessarily agree with the work in question, unless > he > explicitly states that he agrees or disagrees. > > Diet is an important part of Chinese medicine, there > is the old saw that food is medicine and medine is > regarded as food. > > I live in China and have eaten a Chinese diet for > four > years, and that automatically eliminates dairy, most > wheat and other no-no's. > > In general, though, see what Bob Flaws has to say, > and > perhaps others on the list have suggestions? > > Kind regards, Jack > > --- Tamara <savepawsfurever wrote: > > > Jack, > > Thanks for the response. I'm thinking there must > > be a way to balance, or at least looking at the > list > > of foods I've seen in the different categories > > (warm, cool, neutral, etc.) but I could be wrong > in > > relation to TCM. If I were doing it for health > > reasons, that would be different, but it is > because > > I believe in kindness for all creatures, so it is > a > > belief system really. > > Are there any other diets, such as macrobiotic > > that is easy to balance by using TCM? I've seen > > some reference to diet therapies using TCM; I've > > seen reference to books by Bob Flaws that give > info > > on diet. Is there a good TCM book that focuses on > > foods/diets that you can recommend? I realize that > > vegetarianism/veganism would not be the thrust, > but > > I could certainly learn more about TCM and foods. > > > > Thanks again, > > > > > > Jack Sweeney <mojavecowboy wrote: > > Tamara: > > > > I don't know of any books for you, but Vinod is > not > > alone among professionals who believe that > veganism > > leads to imbalances and thus poor health. From my > > experience, many professionals of Chinese medicine > > feel the same. > > > > Perhaps the lack of posts on the subject in the > > archives reflects general agreement with Vinod's > > post. > > > > A few years ago I believed as you do, but after > some > > time decided to return to a diet that includes > fish > > and meat. > > > > On the other hand, my Tui Na instructor advised > > students not to eat a lot of fish or meat, saying > > that > > too much can also cause problems. The key really > is > > balance. > > > > Kind regards, Jack > > > > --- Tamara <savepawsfurever wrote: > > > > > I'm new to TCM, but have noticed as I've read > > > through lots of messages here that it seems no > > > mention is made of vegetarianism or veganism. > I've > > > been vegetarian for about 4 years, recently > > > switching to veganism just a few months ago. I'm > > > not strictly vegan yet as I'm sure I get a dose > of > > > eggs and dairy through things like bread, etc. I > > > became vegetarian and eventually vegan due to > > > personal ethics, not health reasons. > > > The only reference I've found is the message I > > > pasted below that came up in a search. Is there > a > > > book(s) that is available on TCM and > implementing > > > veganism that one can recommend? In TCM, is it > not > > > possible to become balanced and healthy being > > vegan? > > > I realize that to get proper calcium, I must > take > > > pills, which I do (a calcium/magnesium mix). I > do > > > drink soy milk, but more on things like oatmeal > > and > > > not every day. I also eat tofu regularly, and > lots > > > of beans and frequently nuts for protein > sources. > > > I'm careful to get enough protein, or I will get > > > headaches, though I'm sure that in itself is a > > form > > > of imbalance. However, that was occurring even > > when > > > I ate animal products. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Tamara > > > > > > > > > Vinod Kumar posted, nbr 6985 as below: > > > > > > Since I have recently been commenting on Yin > > > defeciency I would like > > > to make a comment that many might find > > > controversial. In my > > > experience many people who are vegetarians have > > > difficulty rebuilding > > > and supporting the Yin without some animal > > products. > > > This subject has > > > been discussed by many modern TCM practioners. > > > > > > One very common experience for vegetarians is > that > > > they get weaker > > > and weaker on their diet. In fact many people > who > > > took up > > > vegetarianism later in life never adapt well to > > it. > > > Many of these > > > people took up vegetarianism as a potential > > therapy > > > for some health > > > crisis they were suffering - which means they > were > > > possibly already > > > facing many health challenges which had stressed > > the > > > Yin. The > > > vegetarian diet they are now following is not > > > appropriate for their > > > personal present needs. Please note that I am > not > > > making any > > > criticism against vegetarian diet. I actually > > > advocate vegetarianism > > > for most people - but for ill people the needs > may > > > be for more Yin > > > building substances. One issue is that perhaps > the > > > body needs more > > > protein and or fat if it has been depleted - at > > > least temporarily. > > > Animal products eaten by ill people should be > > > organic and > > > unprocessed. If the digestion is very weak then > > meat > > > and herbs can be > > > cooked for long time (crock pot is good for > > this)and > > > the broth made > > > into soup or as a base for other dishes - in > this > > > case discard the > > > meat and only take the broth. > > > > > > One of the most important things for > hypometabolic > > > people to remember > > > is that they must not eat cold foods!!! This > means > === message truncated === Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.16.5/616 - Release 1/4/2007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 Michelle: I've been away for too long, that's terrible to hear. But you can't find a European movie on DVD here that doesn't have half the cast chain-smoking. Jack --- Michelle Clark <michellec wrote: > Just one little note: Americans haven't quit > smoking. It was a trend for a while, but > unfortunately due to hip movies and cute camels, a > whole new up and coming generation is hooked. > Michelle > - > Jack Sweeney > Chinese Traditional Medicine > Thursday, January 04, 2007 5:39 PM > Re: [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Veganism and TCM > > > Tamara: > > In general most Chinese still go to the market > almost > daily and buy fresh vegetables, etc. Spoiled or > rotten > or aged food just doesn't sell. Cuisine varies > according to the province. > > Even so, SUV's, Coke, Pepsi, supermarkets, > McDonald's > and KFC are making their inroads, along with > microwaves and even Starbucks. The general idea > among > Chinese, especially the younger generations, is > that > consumption of such foods will make them more > Western > and hence modern. > > Western fast food cost 2-3 times that of Chinese, > but > the fast food stores are always jammed. > > Most Chinese expect China to become the dominant > world > power sometime within the next twenty to fifty > years, > so they are trying to become more American than > Americans. > > If current westernization trends continue, Chinese > will be just as obese and have similar health > problems > as Americans now have, in a decade or so. They've > already got a generation of " Little Emperors, " and > its > possible to see fat little kids here and there. > > Beyond that, though, 66% of the men smoke, and > there > is little to discourage them from doing so. At > least > Americans have quit smoking. > > Kind regards, > > Jack > > --- Tamara <savepawsfurever wrote: > > > Thanks again, Jack. I'll check him out. > > So, does the Chinese standard diet make one > > balanced, or are they having the same problems > as > > the Americas (fast food, sugar, junk)? Just > curious > > what the majority eats there and if it's a good, > > balanced diet. > > And I do agree that food is the most important > > " medicine " we can put in our bodies. > > > > Jack Sweeney <mojavecowboy wrote: > > Tamara: > > > > I don't really have any books in mind, but you > can > > pretty much go with Bob Flaws. He does say, > however, > > that he is just the translator, and he doesn't > > necessarily agree with the work in question, > unless > > he > > explicitly states that he agrees or disagrees. > > > > Diet is an important part of Chinese medicine, > there > > is the old saw that food is medicine and medine > is > > regarded as food. > > > > I live in China and have eaten a Chinese diet > for > > four > > years, and that automatically eliminates dairy, > most > > wheat and other no-no's. > > > > In general, though, see what Bob Flaws has to > say, > > and > > perhaps others on the list have suggestions? > > > > Kind regards, Jack > > > > --- Tamara <savepawsfurever wrote: > > > > > Jack, > > > Thanks for the response. I'm thinking there > must > > > be a way to balance, or at least looking at > the > > list > > > of foods I've seen in the different categories > > > (warm, cool, neutral, etc.) but I could be > wrong > > in > > > relation to TCM. If I were doing it for health > > > reasons, that would be different, but it is > > because > > > I believe in kindness for all creatures, so it > is > > a > > > belief system really. > > > Are there any other diets, such as macrobiotic > > > that is easy to balance by using TCM? I've > seen > > > some reference to diet therapies using TCM; > I've > > > seen reference to books by Bob Flaws that give > > info > > > on diet. Is there a good TCM book that focuses > on > > > foods/diets that you can recommend? I realize > that > > > vegetarianism/veganism would not be the > thrust, > > but > > > I could certainly learn more about TCM and > foods. > > > > > > Thanks again, > > > > > > > > > Jack Sweeney <mojavecowboy wrote: > > > Tamara: > > > > > > I don't know of any books for you, but Vinod > is > > not > > > alone among professionals who believe that > > veganism > > > leads to imbalances and thus poor health. From > my > > > experience, many professionals of Chinese > medicine > > > feel the same. > > > > > > Perhaps the lack of posts on the subject in > the > > > archives reflects general agreement with > Vinod's > > > post. > > > > > > A few years ago I believed as you do, but > after > > some > > > time decided to return to a diet that includes > > fish > > > and meat. > > > > > > On the other hand, my Tui Na instructor > advised > > > students not to eat a lot of fish or meat, > saying > > > that > > > too much can also cause problems. The key > really > > is > > > balance. > > > > > > Kind regards, Jack > > > > > > --- Tamara <savepawsfurever wrote: > > > > > > > I'm new to TCM, but have noticed as I've > read > > > > through lots of messages here that it seems > no > > > > mention is made of vegetarianism or > veganism. > > I've > > > > been vegetarian for about 4 years, recently > > > > switching to veganism just a few months ago. > I'm > > > > not strictly vegan yet as I'm sure I get a > dose > > of > > > > eggs and dairy through things like bread, > etc. === message truncated === Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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