Question on mid back tension with pain

[Guest guest]

I have a question about some really tight muscles in the areas of

the shoulder and back. I'll try to describe where they are the best

that I can, and I have an anatomy book, so I'll try to reference it

for a hopefully better understanding (I've never really taken an

anatomy class, so I am just going off the pictures, let me know if

what I'm saying doesn't really make sense and I'll scan in the

picture and draw on it or something). One area of pain starts

underneath the shoulder blade and goes to the spine, probably about

1/2 inch deep (so pretty deep, almost to the bone), and goes from

about mid-thoracic (from what I can tell, about T8 or so) to lower

neck (probably about C4), with the pain concentrated between T3 and

C7, and also more so on the left side (left side meaning the side

with my left hand on it), and also one point right around T8 or the

bottom of the shoulder blade on the left of the spinal column about

1 inch out from the bone, also about 1/2 inch deep. As far as I can

tell from these pictures, the muscles that are locked up are:

superior posterior serratus, spinal muscle of the thorax,

longissimus dorsalis, and more superficially the rhomboideus major

and minor. The other region that is bothering me is deep on the top

of the shoulder, the supraspinatus and more superficial regions of

the trapezoid muscle. As best as I can tell from the Foundations of

2nd edition, the areas that are bothering me seem

to run along the Bladder Main channel (in my book it shows 2 lines

going down the spine, and the muscles on and between those two lines

are the sore ones, page 972), and for the shoulders the tight muscle

areas seem to follow the Gall Bladder channel where it goes over the

shoulder and onto the upper back just above the shoulder blade (page

1042). These muscles are very tight, and almost any amount of

massage doesn't help (although if someone takes their elbow and can

put a good amount of weight on it in the right spot, after about 10-

15 min of pressure I can start to feel them release a little). The

muscle hardness doesn't really go up the neck; it just stays about

shoulder level and below. Most of the time when someone gives me a

back massage or acupressure they ask me if what they are pushing on

is really a muscle because it feels like bone. If you have ever

gotten something like frozen chicken thighs out of the freezer and

put them in a bowl of warm water and then felt them, that is a lot

what my muscles feel like. The surface is quite loose, but starting

1/4 to 1/2 inch down the muscles feel just like the frozen chicken.

It feels like there is some blockage in this area that could

possibly be causing the energy to flow out of the channels, but I

don't really know.

 

Having the pain and the tension from this area makes it so I don't

have the ability to reason through things or take things into

consideration; it's more just a reaction, and a hypersensitivity to

too many things going on, or too much noise.

 

So I am wondering is what does it mean when this area is really

hard, like what kind of imbalance? And what can I do to get these

muscles to loosen up a bit?

 

Thanks in advance =)

[Guest guest]

Hi mrasmm,

How long has it been this way, and how did it begin, do you

remember?

Anyway, I would use some Gua Sha and after that cupping to start

to clean the area of stagnated blood. Another useful approach

could be moxa, to relax the muscles, and some points of the

Bladder, like kunlun(BL60), yanglingquan(GB34), sayangluo(TA8),

and moxa along the spine from jianjing(GB21) down. Afterwards

some massage. If you have access to an acupuncturist he can use

some needles with moxa on some of these points after the cupping.

This is for branch, the root has to be seen, and treated also.

Marcos

 

--- mrasmm <mrasmm escreveu:

 

> I have a question about some really tight muscles in the areas

> of

> the shoulder and back. I'll try to describe where they are the

> best

> that I can, and I have an anatomy book, so I'll try to

> reference it

> for a hopefully better understanding (I've never really taken

> an

> anatomy class, so I am just going off the pictures, let me know

> if

> what I'm saying doesn't really make sense and I'll scan in the

> picture and draw on it or something). One area of pain starts

> underneath the shoulder blade and goes to the spine, probably

> about

> 1/2 inch deep (so pretty deep, almost to the bone), and goes

> from

> about mid-thoracic (from what I can tell, about T8 or so) to

> lower

> neck (probably about C4), with the pain concentrated between T3

> and

> C7, and also more so on the left side (left side meaning the

> side

> with my left hand on it), and also one point right around T8 or

> the

> bottom of the shoulder blade on the left of the spinal column

> about

> 1 inch out from the bone, also about 1/2 inch deep. As far as

> I can

> tell from these pictures, the muscles that are locked up are:

> superior posterior serratus, spinal muscle of the thorax,

> longissimus dorsalis, and more superficially the rhomboideus

> major

> and minor. The other region that is bothering me is deep on

> the top

> of the shoulder, the supraspinatus and more superficial regions

> of

> the trapezoid muscle. As best as I can tell from the

> Foundations of

> 2nd edition, the areas that are bothering me

> seem

> to run along the Bladder Main channel (in my book it shows 2

> lines

> going down the spine, and the muscles on and between those two

> lines

> are the sore ones, page 972), and for the shoulders the tight

> muscle

> areas seem to follow the Gall Bladder channel where it goes

> over the

> shoulder and onto the upper back just above the shoulder blade

> (page

> 1042). These muscles are very tight, and almost any amount of

> massage doesn't help (although if someone takes their elbow and

> can

> put a good amount of weight on it in the right spot, after

> about 10-

> 15 min of pressure I can start to feel them release a little).

> The

> muscle hardness doesn't really go up the neck; it just stays

> about

> shoulder level and below. Most of the time when someone gives

> me a

> back massage or acupressure they ask me if what they are

> pushing on

> is really a muscle because it feels like bone. If you have

> ever

> gotten something like frozen chicken thighs out of the freezer

> and

> put them in a bowl of warm water and then felt them, that is a

> lot

> what my muscles feel like. The surface is quite loose, but

> starting

> 1/4 to 1/2 inch down the muscles feel just like the frozen

> chicken.

> It feels like there is some blockage in this area that could

> possibly be causing the energy to flow out of the channels, but

> I

> don't really know.

>

> Having the pain and the tension from this area makes it so I

> don't

> have the ability to reason through things or take things into

> consideration; it's more just a reaction, and a

> hypersensitivity to

> too many things going on, or too much noise.

>

> So I am wondering is what does it mean when this area is really

>

> hard, like what kind of imbalance? And what can I do to get

> these

> muscles to loosen up a bit?

>

> Thanks in advance =)

>

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine , marcos <ishk18 wrote:

>

> Hi mrasmm,

> How long has it been this way, and how did it begin, do you

> remember?

> Anyway, I would use some Gua Sha and after that cupping to start

> to clean the area of stagnated blood. Another useful approach

> could be moxa, to relax the muscles, and some points of the

> Bladder, like kunlun(BL60), yanglingquan(GB34), sayangluo(TA8),

> and moxa along the spine from jianjing(GB21) down. Afterwards

> some massage. If you have access to an acupuncturist he can use

> some needles with moxa on some of these points after the cupping.

> This is for branch, the root has to be seen, and treated also.

> Marcos

 

 

Thank you for the reply. As for how long it has been, it's been

quite a long time, probably over 5 years since it first happened and

after I started going to a TCM Dr for treatment, it went away for

quite some time. For some reason the last two months it has been

coming back (I am still being treated), but it's really gotten bad

the last 2 to 3 weeks. I believe the TCM Dr is treating the root,

and I think that is working quite well. Mostly I am just looking

for some things that I can do in the mean time to help the process

along, and maybe put some special emphasis on resolving the

symptoms, which might also help along the healing of the root

(atleast I hope so).

 

I didn't know what Gua Sha was so I looked it up, and from what I

read it seems to be where you lay down and someone puts some oil on

your back and then scrapes a spoon or a coin or something down the

back to create a vacuum of sorts where the stagnant blood can draw

some toxins (heat) out. If that is right, it sounds like I would

have to find someone who could do that for me? Also I've never seen

the Dr that I go to do anything like this, and I've also never seen

him moxa, so I don't know if he does it, or if I would have to find

someone else to do this or just what would be the best idea. He has

tried acupuncture on me a couple of times, and it is quite painful

especially when he inserts the needles, and has not yielded many

results for me. I think that this pain is because there is too much

energy in the channels that makes them hyper sensitive. I do trust

in his abilities because family and friends have received

acupuncture from him with very promising results. One time he did

acupuncture down the top of my shoulder from the neck to the end of

the shoulder, and that really helped relax the muscles for 2 or 3

days to a week.

 

When you explain what to do about things, what do you think is going

on? Blood stasis in the Main Bladder channel maybe with heat? Also

where are some good acupuncture diagrams online that I could look up

and see where these points are?

 

Thanks =)

[Guest guest]

As need as you can tell, is Bladder 36 one of the sore points?

 

http://www.acupressure.com/articles/immunesys.htm

 

" There is a particular acupressure point, Bearing Support (B 36),

that governs resistance, especially resistance to colds and flu. It

is located near the spine, off the tips of the shoulder blades. The

Chinese book The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Internal Medicine says,

wind and cold enter the pores of the skin " at this point.1 It, as

well as other points in this area, helps to strengthen the immune

system. Conversely, these points around the tips of the shoulder

blades are the first to get blocked up just before an illness,

especially a cold or flu, takes hold. "

 

(You can above, scroll down, and see a picture of

where B36 is.)

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine , " mrasmm " <mrasmm wrote:

 

> and a hypersensitivity to

> too many things going on, or too much noise.

 

This is a description of possible manifestations of Yin Deficiency

and/or magnesium deficiency.

 

Two of the main reasons why muscles can become rock hard are Cold

invasion and/or magnesium deficiency. Until the Cold problem and/or

the Mg deficiency are addressed, chiropractic and DO treatments are

not going to last.

 

Have you tried heat on the area, and did it help or make it worse?

 

I want to call your attention to something called the Back

Transporting Points. These are some special points on the Bladder

meridian which are diagnostic. If there is imbalance in a

corresponding Organ, the BTP point for that Organ will be sore. In

the case of chronic imbalances, the appropriate point(s) will need

to be worked to bring the Organ(s) back into balance. The BTP

section is in the chapter on " The Function of Specific Points " .

That's pp. 349 - 350 for readers who have the 1st edition of

Maciocia's Foundations.

[Guest guest]

--- mrasmm <mrasmm escreveu:

 

> Chinese Traditional Medicine , marcos <ishk18

> wrote:

> >

> > Hi mrasmm,

> > How long has it been this way, and how did it begin, do you

> > remember?

> > Anyway, I would use some Gua Sha and after that cupping to

> start

> > to clean the area of stagnated blood. Another useful approach

> > could be moxa, to relax the muscles, and some points of the

> > Bladder, like kunlun(BL60), yanglingquan(GB34),

> sayangluo(TA8),

> > and moxa along the spine from jianjing(GB21) down. Afterwards

> > some massage. If you have access to an acupuncturist he can

> use

> > some needles with moxa on some of these points after the

> cupping.

> > This is for branch, the root has to be seen, and treated

> also.

> > Marcos

>

>

> Thank you for the reply. As for how long it has been, it's

> been

> quite a long time, probably over 5 years since it first

> happened and

> after I started going to a TCM Dr for treatment, it went away

> for

> quite some time. For some reason the last two months it has

> been

> coming back (I am still being treated), but it's really gotten

> bad

> the last 2 to 3 weeks. I believe the TCM Dr is treating the

> root,

> and I think that is working quite well. Mostly I am just

> looking

> for some things that I can do in the mean time to help the

> process

> along, and maybe put some special emphasis on resolving the

> symptoms, which might also help along the healing of the root

> (atleast I hope so).

>

> I didn't know what Gua Sha was so I looked it up, and from what

> I

> read it seems to be where you lay down and someone puts some

> oil on

> your back and then scrapes a spoon or a coin or something down

> the

> back to create a vacuum of sorts where the stagnant blood can

> draw

> some toxins (heat) out. If that is right, it sounds like I

> would

> have to find someone who could do that for me? Also I've never

> seen

> the Dr that I go to do anything like this, and I've also never

> seen

> him moxa, so I don't know if he does it, or if I would have to

> find

> someone else to do this or just what would be the best idea.

> He has

> tried acupuncture on me a couple of times, and it is quite

> painful

> especially when he inserts the needles, and has not yielded

> many

> results for me. I think that this pain is because there is too

> much

> energy in the channels that makes them hyper sensitive.

 

 

Well, that is a good definition of excess, stagnation, etc.

 

 

> I do trust

> in his abilities because family and friends have received

> acupuncture from him with very promising results. One time he

> did

> acupuncture down the top of my shoulder from the neck to the

> end of

> the shoulder, and that really helped relax the muscles for 2 or

> 3

> days to a week.

 

Hi mrasmm, he probably is good enough, but not all TCM doctors

use all the techniques, some only use acupuncture, some only

herbs, some only massage(tui-na or shiatsu or amma)with moxa,

some add cupping...it varies, and the right technique sometimes

makes all the difference.

 

 

 

> When you explain what to do about things, what do you think is

> going

> on? Blood stasis in the Main Bladder channel maybe with heat?

> Also

> where are some good acupuncture diagrams online that I could

> look up

> and see where these points are?

>

> Thanks =)

>

My guess is stagnation, of course it's a guess, i didn't even see

you. but it seems to fit.

The points you can find in; http://www.acuxo.com/index.asp

You may use acupressure on them. Did you try heat on the back?

Marcos

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine , " victoria_dragon "

<victoria_dragon wrote:

>

> As need as you can tell, is Bladder 36 one of the sore points?

 

Yeah, this area is one of the areas that I was talking about. The

point B 36 is very sore; the sore area is also bigger than just the

one point.

 

 

> This is a description of possible manifestations of Yin Deficiency

> and/or magnesium deficiency.

>

> Two of the main reasons why muscles can become rock hard are Cold

> invasion and/or magnesium deficiency. Until the Cold problem

and/or

> the Mg deficiency are addressed, chiropractic and DO treatments

are

> not going to last.

>

> Have you tried heat on the area, and did it help or make it worse?

 

I have tried heat on the area with a heating pad, and sometimes it

really helps, and other times it doesn't really have much effect.

If I haven't used a heating pad for a while and then I use it,

that's when it seems to have the most effect, but if I have used a

heating pad several times in the last few weeks it doesn't really

help. It also really helps if the room I am in when I am lying on

the heating pad is quite cold, otherwise I feel overheated.

 

The other day I did an acupressure type exercise for a good hour or

so, and then I laid down on the heating pad in a cold room. My

muscle around that B 36 point started twitching, but not just a

twitch. If you have ever used an electrical muscle stimulator (like

a TENS unit, or the other ones that they have out there for muscles

including abs), it felt like that. It felt like it was glooping out

some energy and/or stuff that was blocking the channel. After that

momentarily (a few hours) I felt like the passage was open and

working again.

 

I am wondering what it is that flows through the channels in this

area, and what I can do to help things keep moving along. Normally

with things like this I just let things flow their course, but for

some reason this time it feels like there is something stuck there

and somehow I need to figure out what I need to do that would help

it get flowing again.

 

> I want to call your attention to something called the Back

> Transporting Points. These are some special points on the Bladder

> meridian which are diagnostic. If there is imbalance in a

> corresponding Organ, the BTP point for that Organ will be sore. In

> the case of chronic imbalances, the appropriate point(s) will need

> to be worked to bring the Organ(s) back into balance. The BTP

> section is in the chapter on " The Function of Specific Points " .

> That's pp. 349 - 350 for readers who have the 1st edition of

> Maciocia's Foundations.

 

 

Thank you for this info. If anyone out there is interested in

reading this and has the second edition, it is on pages 807 through

810 (this is weird because the index says it is on pages 811-814)

and 982 through 993.

 

Is there any place that they have pictures of where these BTP's are

and what organs they correspond to? That would be interesting to

see if any of these sore spots line up with any of this info.

[Guest guest]

Hi mrasmm;

 

--- mrasmm <mrasmm escreveu:

> for

> some reason this time it feels like there is something stuck

> there

> and somehow I need to figure out what I need to do that would

> help

> it get flowing again.

 

I mentioned GuaSha on the other post, you(or someone else, as it

is on the back) can do it, you may use a coin, a spoon, it must

have a rounded edge, you dipit in lubricant; an oil, and scrape

the stiff area, it should be done gently, it should not hurt, if

the area is stagnated, because of cold-wind, the cold blocks qi

and blood(xue) and jin-ye. it will get red, light red, if it is

recent, dark if it is old stagnation, depends on the stagnation.

on the upper back, scrape down from the sholder along the bladder

channels in a straight line. You scrape 9 to 27 times, if it does

not become reddish, probably the patogenic factor has gone

deeper, or the location wasn't right. It is a good technique to

use in conjunction with acupuncture, moxa, herbs,

cupping(BaGuan-cupping goes deeper than Guasha in 'fishing out'

patogenic factor), massage.

The area will stay reddish for a few days, the body will

gradually cleanse the skin, meanwhile the channels will be freed

of cold blockage.

 

> > I want to call your attention to something called the Back

> > Transporting Points. These are some special points on the

> Bladder

> > meridian which are diagnostic. If there is imbalance in a

> > corresponding Organ, the BTP point for that Organ will be

> sore. In

> > the case of chronic imbalances, the appropriate point(s) will

> need

> > to be worked to bring the Organ(s) back into balance. The BTP

>

> > section is in the chapter on " The Function of Specific

> Points " .

> > That's pp. 349 - 350 for readers who have the 1st edition of

> > Maciocia's Foundations.

> >

> Is there any place that they have pictures of where these BTP's

> are

> and what organs they correspond to? That would be interesting

> to

> see if any of these sore spots line up with any of this info.

>

Go to; http://www.acuxo.com/meridians.asp?meridian=Bladder

and see the points calld Shu(the BTP's), and see the organ

involved, according to location.

 

 

 

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