Some people do not want help.

[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine , " victoria_dragon "

<victoria_dragon wrote:

 

>

> There are so many CFIDS support groups on the Internet and in local

> communities. Is she checking any of these out, and if so, why not.

>

This is a very relevant question? Since this relates to a recent

thread about the helplesness of healers and other recent threads - let

me give some more info about this person - because the issues of her

life have broad relevance.

 

She had depression disease for many years and never even thought of

seeing a physician of any kind - why(?) - she does not believe in it.

She does not believe in taking the medicines of the western system as

sees them as poisons that should be avoided at all costs - the

medicines from the eastern systems she feels will dampen her awareness

- and keep her from learning the lesson that her disease is trying to

teach her. She feels that her disease is a karmic lesson a kind of

puzzle that the Universe has presented her with - and to take

medicines for it would cut her off from the realization of her true

self - she does not define herself as having CFS (that is my

designation) she sees herself as being something like a recluse - she

calls herself an urban mystic - she is like a smoker who is always

saying I could stop anytime I want to - it is just that I don't want

to - she can not recognize that it is her disease itself and the lack

of energy and the mental fog that has kept her from finding a solution

- she is trapped and has very few resources to help her come out of

this trap. She has become very compulsive and performs many rituals

around food and other daily activities - yet not one thing she has

ever done or thought has helped - she is getting less functional

yearly - her hypometabolism is overwhelming her and I can see in her

eyes that she is afraid of what is happening - but she seems almost

proud that she has been 'chosen' - my great fear for her is that she

is developing heart disease as a result of this lethargy, fear, and

isolation. _The idea of joining a CFS support group would be insulting

to her - she does not see herslf as having a physical disease she

belives that God (or whatever) has chosen her to go to a higher level

than others - she thinks she is special and has gifts (which in some

ways she does)- she is a poet and writes lovely poignant poems about

the 'gift' of suffering - it is a classic martyrs vision - I read

these poems with great sadness. She spends her life writing these

poems and reading - she reads several books a week - but never books

on health or recovery - she reads the works of the great mystics and

renunciates - because this is who she identifys with - she told me

once that she believes that the poems of the great mystic poets have

more healing in them than all of the medicine in the world - she has

the same view about music - she believes that music is more healing

than medicines. Perhaps this is true in some way - but these things

have not saved her.

 

She like many others are marching to the drum of a different drummer -

her vision is not the consensual vision - for her the body is an

illusion. The thing I have to say about all of this is she is sick -

not because of these ideas alone many have such ideas - it is because

her life is so desperately nonfunctional - she is in anguish - living

the dark night of the soul - but she has no way out of all this

suffering - and to me this is clear cut pathology. Since I do not

believe that CFS is a 'psychological' disorder I see only her

overwhelming physical exhaustion which is the reason why she can not

do anything to help herself - she does not have the energy to learn a

new way of living - so she keeps looking for some higher force to give

her 'union' - then all will be saved. Disease causes mental anomalies

but these anomalies are not the cause - they are common symptoms of

this type of disease. Desperate people may come to various conclusions

about themselves and the extraordinary expereinces they might have but

most of these ideas will not help them at all - they keep getting sicker.

[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine , " Vinod Kumar " <vinod3x3

wrote:

> This is a very relevant question? Since this relates to a recent

> thread about the helplesness of healers and other recent threads -

let

> me give some more info about this person - because the issues of

her

> life have broad relevance.

 

I think this case is a good example of what Vinod was talking about

earlier. When a healer encounters an individual such as the one he

has described in this post, the ways of figuring out and working

through the trouble get really limited. Like he said, she thinks

that western medicines are poisons, so irregardless if they would

help her or not, those are out. The list goes on and on of these

kinds of limitations, and every healer reaches their own limit-how

much they know how to work around these kinds of things and at the

same time be effective in their treatment, and at the same time

balance their own personal life (sometimes a Dr can pour so much

energy into helping a patient that it really drains them and

dramatically affects their personal life) and what they feel best

serves the patient. Some have a better ability to utilize these

work arounds, and sometimes this can be what defines a great Dr.

There is also an inherent weakness in this idea in that if it gets

carried to far there will be no treatment options, there will only

be energy spent on work arounds. So this kind of goes back to

Vinod's point, is the healer to blame, or the individual? Well the

real answer is neither; it just is the way it is. If someone where

to want something different, then there is a possibility for

treatment depending on how open they are and how dedicated they

are.

 

Is this individual that Vinod has mentioned a bad person or

incurable? I would say not! I would say that her life does sound

rough, and when I think of her it gives me sadness and compassion

for her to be in a place that sounds like is a lot of pain for her,

and from the sounds of it she has cut off a lot of her treatment

options. What I do know of people is that they are their own

creator, their own agent for their own lives, both very divine

qualities, and people create what is perfect for them. Obviously

this woman feels that she has been given a puzzle that she feels she

needs to solve on her own power. I feel this diseased state could

have a lesson to teach her, and I feel that the core of her being

could be telling her this could be it, this could be the way for me

to learn the lesson. It may end up taking her life in the long run,

but if it does, it will be the right thing for her because she did

it. For some of us it just feels unfortunate when this " perfection "

is a painful diseased state, but really what is " perfection " ? It is

indeed an interesting answer.

 

All in all I feel that there is a peace from God's (or whatever you

want to call him/it) point of view, he knows what is happening, he

knows what is to be, and what has been, and there is perfection in

absolutely everything. From my experience there is a piece of this

in every one that allows us to tune in to the bigger picture if we

choose to do so. I really feel this is the real piece that guides

us on our day to day " chance " encounters, and the overall picture.

By my definition what " disease " is is anything that separates from

this connectivity; The bigger the separation, the bigger the

disease.

 

I have read a lot of debate on the mind/body subject. I would like

to add my two cents in for what it is worth. I, like Vinod, feel

that psychotherapy in most cases is not necessarily needed for a

full recovery. I feel that as the disease is usurped out of the

body, the individual will become more aware of things and how to

handle them naturally, and almost instinctively know something they

can start to do to resolve the issue. I do however feel that there

are cases this can be greatly facilitated by " counseling " . I also

do agree that counseling, for some, can be one of these " self-

medicating " cycles and keep the individual comfortable enough with

where they are that they don't have enough desire to get better, as

I have seen this before. And yet for some others a counselor is a

good place to vent things. Sometimes, in this way, a counselor is

what is required, because if you were to vent these types of things

with others, personal relationships and factors would be present,

and could create very undesirable effects. I do not have enough

information personally to comment on very traumatic situations, but

I do think that in these cases it is a very good idea to look at the

possibility of counseling. The horrors of modern warfare are

definitely very traumatic, and could be candidate for benefiting

from counseling (there are many many more examples, but maybe are

best not listed). Again, these aren't really your typical

situation, but are rather possibilities. I feel that the point

Vinod might be trying to make is that in most day to day cases that

a general health provider sees, they do not require talk therapy ,

and might just be extra money that could be better spent on

something else, if the individual has it. What I feel it comes down

to is a benefit/cost ratio, just like any situation with

healthcare. As the benefits go down and the cost goes up it becomes

not worth it eventually. In other words it is up to each individual

to decide if there are benefits to counseling, and if indeed there

are is it worth the cost, or is there something else that could

better fill the requirement.

 

I do feel there is one very important difference between Southeast

Asia and the West. From my experience people from Asia speak their

mind, if they don't like you, they tell it to your face, and that is

that. Then the people would generally avoid each other (but still

work together if they had to), and still have a sense of self worth

about them, even though they know that someone does not like them.

People feel comfortable just speaking their mind, so true boundaries

are better realized. Here in the West it is entirely different. If

I were to say to someone that I didn't like them-that would be

really offensive (and therefore most likely working together would

be disastrous). Things over here are kept more on the down low;

it's a social stigma thing. Often times you will get two people

that really don't like each other doing nice things for the other

person because it is expected or something. I don't know how it is

in Asia, but here in the US people will do or keep doing things

because they feel the group wants it, but sometimes in reality the

whole group feels the same way, and they all end up doing something

they really don't want to do because they think the group wants it,

when all along the group didn't really want it at all. In my mind

this is deviating from the reality that the core (natural knowing,

sprit, Shen?, or whatever you want to call it) experiences, and any

time there is a deviation from this energy some disease forms, and

of course the bigger the deviation, the bigger the disease. With

this background, counseling might be useful for people in the West

who want learn how to better align their actions (what they say, do,

or how they interact with the world) with this core energy (this

could also be integrated with TCM treatment very nicely).

[Guest guest]

The example you gave is very illuminating and one of the types of

situations that I was referring to in an earlier post.

 

For the benefit of readers who are new to the list, I have CFIDS

(aka CFS) and FMS (Fibromyalgia Syndrome). I came down with CFIDS

in the spring of 1974, 6 months following gall bladder surgery. I

came down with the condition 10 years before the outbreak in Incline

Village, Nevada would start to bring what became known as CFIDS to

the attention of the medical establishment and the general public.

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine , " Vinod Kumar " <vinod3x3

wrote:

 

> She does not believe in taking the medicines of the western system

as

> sees them as poisons that should be avoided at all costs - the

> medicines from the eastern systems she feels will dampen her

awareness

> - and keep her from learning the lesson that her disease is trying

to

> teach her.

 

I suspect - from what you've described - that there are lessons

galore under this woman's nose. Lessons that she steadfastly

refuses to learn.

 

> She feels that her disease is a karmic lesson a kind of

> puzzle that the Universe has presented her with - and to take

> medicines for it would cut her off from the realization of her true

> self

 

What realization of one's true self? One of the worst things about

chronic illness is that it can cut one off from a realization of

much of anything. Let me give you a very recent example.

 

Yesterday, my husband and I did our once-a-month big shopping trip

into town. Even though we started early in the morning, the day

turned out to be hotter and more humid than I had expected. I

sweated a lot, sweating out minerals that I couldn't afford to lose.

The trip also involved a lot of walking. By the time I got home, I

was in misery.

 

I laid down and took a much needed nap. But I only slept for a

couple of hours before painful cramps woke me up. I took magnesium

that stopped the cramps, but I still ached all over. I couldn't get

back to sleep because of the constant low-level pain, but I felt too

bad to be able to do something that would distract me from the pain.

Even though the pain was low-level, it was constant enough and

severe enough that it was holding my attention hostage. Every other

consideration and realization was driven from my mind and from my

attention.

 

I finally took an over-the-counter pain reliever that consisted of

aspirin, caffeine, and salicylamide. After a few minutes, I felt a

lot better. I still couldn't move around much because of the

weakness and because it triggered more pain, but at least I was able

to sit up and notice other things besides how bad I felt. I went

into the family room to watch TV with my husband. As I was sitting

there, I looked over at my husband and felt a very strong sense of

love for him. If I had still been in pain, that kind of realization

and awareness would not have occured because my consciousness would

have been held captive by the pain.

 

How many times does a kid have to touch his hand to a hot stove and

get burned before the kid finally learns the lessons that hot stoves

burn and not to touch them?

 

Personally, I don't see anything ennobling or enlightening about

just experiencing pain and suffering. It's how people respond to the

pain and suffering and escape from it and what they learn from it

that ennobles and enlightens, not just experiencing it over and over

and over. When a kid keeps touching a hot stove over and over

without learning the lessons, what the kid is seeking is not

understanding and learning but sensation and personal indulgence.

 

I know that last statement will sound harsh and hard to some

readers, but it's the truth. One of the lessons that many learn from

a chronic illness is that they come to hate the way it isolates them

from others and how it diverts their attention from anything but

their own pain and suffering.

 

I recognize that some people need to learn to be more concerned with

themselves, and personal suffering is one way to accomplish this,

but this is not what is happening in some cases.

 

I learned a long time ago to be very, very leary of people who

define themselves strictly by their suffering. Especially if they

come across as making it into some sort of contest as to who has

suffered the most. When people really do learn the lessons that

suffering can teach, the last thing they do is try to make it into

some kind of Olympics with them being contenders for the gold.

Considerations of who has suffered the most is the farthest thing

from their minds. The fact that someone is suffering is what is

uppermost in their minds and hearts, not any kind of ranking of

suffering.

 

Sometimes - and I'm not saying this is what is happening in the

example Vinod gives - some people regard their participation in a

suffering Olympics as justification and an excuse to make others

suffer. BTW, recoiling from people like this is a normal, healthy

response.

 

As for what I have learned from being sick, I sometimes quip that I

got a med school education the hard way. And it has crossed my mind

to wonder if I had gone to medical school (as I had thought

seriously about when I was 15-years-old), could I have avoided being

sick myself. But then I realize that many of the things I've

learned weren't and aren't being taught in medical schools. At

least not the ones I would have had access to back then.

 

I have to admit that being so sick for so long is probably what

primed me to be able to learn TCM so quickly and so easily. I hadn't

been sick 10 years before it began to dawn on me that there were

some serious limitations to the " zap it with a pill or cut it out "

model of healing.

 

Maybe there is some grand and cosmic reason for having CFIDS, or

maybe it's nothing more than a matter of " shit happens " . Forgive me

for using a vulgar American expression, but I couldn't think of a

better way to express it. In either event, the concerns for me are

what am I going to do about it and how do I get out of this? Also,

how can people who want to avoid this avoid this? I see some of the

prime lessons of CFIDS as having to do with the mundane. Like being

more careful about what anesthesias are used in surgery. Like being

aware of what toxins in the environment can do to people and

cleaning up the envrionment. Like recognizing the importance of

people getting enough rest and relaxation. Etc.

[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine , " mrasmm " <mrasmm wrote:

 

>

> Is this individual that Vinod has mentioned a bad person or

> incurable? I would say not! I would say that her life does sound

> rough, and when I think of her it gives me sadness and compassion

> for her to be in a place that sounds like is a lot of pain for her,

> and from the sounds of it she has cut off a lot of her treatment

> options.

 

I want to be clear that I am not blaming this patient for her illness.

She is trapped. She is a friend of mine - not a good friend - but one

who I often go to meet for conversation. I tell her she reminds me of

a mix of Emily Dickinson, Sylvia Plath, and Saint Teresa of Avila -

Emily Dickinson because she lives a life of isolated contemplative art

- Sylvia Plath because she writes poems of existental angst -

Saint Teresa of Avila because she will suffer anything to be worthy of

God's love. I have such people in my family - religious aesthetics who

live lives of meditation and prayer - or scholarship - one uncle is a

reknown Sanskrit scholar who has spent the great part of his life in

his room studying. In my opinion these are all cases of depression

disease - not necessarily mental depression but hypometabolism - a

life of lathargy is caused by lack of physicsal energy (many have good

mental energy but can not do much physically)- and the life styles

that these people have developed are common methods that they have to

deal with their lack of energy or interest in the consensual world -

these things are adaptive mechanisms for dealing with low energy

conditions. Defeciency diseases did not begin in the modern times -

one can see individuals suffering these diseases in the jungle

villages of Kerala. Great genius and nobilty or even saintliness can

be found in those who have been forced into isolated low energy

lives. I often think that some of the greatest people have suffered

from diseases like CFS - and their genius and clarity have come from

the fact of having their disease and the long years of coming to terms

with it. In my friends case her trap comes from a deep insight that

her disease is a symbol of her lack of accord with Spirit - I agree

with this but she thinks this means an abstract concept which she

calls God - I think it means she has lost Qi and balance in her Shen -

which in traditional understanding is primarly or essentially the

Heart function in human physiology - she agrees with this but feels

that this means being out of sync with God's will - I do not disagree

but I say getting in sync with God means balancing your body which God

gave you to help you realise - she says - yes so you want to give me

medicines to help me balance my physical heart function - I want to

perfect my devotion so that my love of God will automaticly heal my

heart.

 

'mrasmm' has understood many of my points on psychological counseling

- I have the reservations I have first because I do not believe in the

theories of much of psychotherapy - but there are many more practical

reasons for objecting to these techniques - I have not seen much

success in most of these techniques - and of the little benefit I have

seen it took a long time and was very expensive - plus I have another

explanation for why these techniques do work to some extent in a

minority - usually when i see someone who perhaps others would

reccomend they do psychological counseling i recomend Five element

Massage or Chi Kung or Tai Chi or Yoga or breathing exercises - or

meditation - in my mind such techniques are much more effective than

psychological training and some of them cost nothing and can be done

in the privacy of ones own home for those who are house bound.

[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine , " Vinod Kumar " <vinod3x3

wrote:

> I want to be clear that I am not blaming this patient for her

illness.

> She is trapped. She is a friend of mine - not a good friend - but

one

> who I often go to meet for conversation.

 

Hey there, and good day =)

I also want to be clear that I do not think you are blaming anyone,

but rather explaining a situation and circumstance to help others

see this point of view, and it's a great example at that.

 

> In my friends case her trap comes from a deep insight that

> her disease is a symbol of her lack of accord with Spirit - I agree

> with this but she thinks this means an abstract concept which she

> calls God - I think it means she has lost Qi and balance in her

Shen -

> which in traditional understanding is primarily or essentially the

> Heart function in human physiology - she agrees with this but feels

> that this means being out of sync with God's will - I do not

disagree

> but I say getting in sync with God means balancing your body which

God

> gave you to help you realize - she says - yes so you want to give

me

> medicines to help me balance my physical heart function - I want to

> perfect my devotion so that my love of God will automatically heal

my

> heart.

 

I also agree with this in that it seems she realizes she is out of

tune, but feels like if she can perfect her devotion then she will

be healed. To me I see a lot of people feel this way, and I think

it is natural to feel this way to a point. I, like you, have not

seen many results with this approach. To me it just seems to

abstract. Personally I feel that in all blunt honesty, God has

given us a brain to use. If we want to do better or feel better and

there is something more that we know how to do that we can do,

that's where you start (just like you said, help the body balance

out so the individual can be more in-tune with God). My feelings

are that perfecting devotion is good, but too abstract to be able to

heal in such ways. Let me give an example here. There is a good

lesson where you have many people that you are teaching to, and you

are talking about faith, or in this case perfecting devotion. You

ask the people if they believe in faith, and most say yes. Then I

would say to them ok, if you have faith move this paper, as I set

down a piece of paper in the middle of the group on the floor. In

most instances people will just sit there and watch the paper, some

will even try to will it to levitate, when this happens I would just

go over and pick the piece of paper up and move it and say look I

moved it. Then usually the people will say yeah you moved it, but

not with faith. Then I reply to them I had faith that I could move

the paper, so I walked over and moved it. It is faith that I had

that I could move it as I had not moved the paper in that instance

before. Lesson of the story, faith without works is dead. It's

like nutrition, bad nutrition can cause disease, but good nutrition

can't reverse it (this is where herbal and acupuncture treatments

come in, as well as others), it can only sustain it. Also it is

very difficult to impossible to cure disease without good

nutrition. So likewise, without devotion, ridding disease would

be difficult at best, but at the same time solely pure devotion very

rarely (if ever) cures disease. The cure happens mostly when the

two are coupled together (works and faith, or whatever terminology

you use).

 

So all in all, I agree with what you have said, and what you have

shared has been very good insights, in my opinion. I also agree that

in a decently size proportion of patients that other things could be

more effective in some ways, including cost. From my experience I

have seen very little results for the time and money spent in the

long run with counseling as the sole investment. I do think for

some it is good for the day to day handling of experiences, and

helping them deal with the short term more productively.

 

I also thought I would let you know that I have been responding more

generally speaking more for the benefit of others who are reading.

So many of the comments haven't been directed towards you

personally, but rather more generally speaking for the benefit of

others reading =)

[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine , " mrasmm " <mrasmm wrote:

>

> I also agree with this in that it seems she realizes she is out of

> tune, but feels like if she can perfect her devotion then she will

> be healed. To me I see a lot of people feel this way, and I think

> it is natural to feel this way to a point.

 

In some cases there is a fear of disappointment and a fear of

hopelessness. Say for a moment that the person tries the Eastern

herbs or the Western drugs, and they don't work. They're no longer

possible help. As long as the person doesn't try them, there is the

thought at the back of the mind that there is a way out if things

get too bad. Yes, I know this sounds odd, but sometimes one

encounters this.

 

For some people a part of their total healing will be to face and

really feel feelings of hopelessness and helplessness and to learn

to transmute them. Personally, I'm a big believer in the power of

prayer. Especially in cases like this. In that moment of finally

feeling hopelessness and helplessness, the person makes a decision

to go for the healing. Because energy and focus are no longer going

into keeping from feeling the hopelessness and helplessness, they

are freed up for the prayer and for healing. It's a transcending

experience.

 

> I, like you, have not

> seen many results with this approach. To me it just seems to

> abstract. Personally I feel that in all blunt honesty, God has

> given us a brain to use. If we want to do better or feel better

and

> there is something more that we know how to do that we can do,

> that's where you start (just like you said, help the body balance

> out so the individual can be more in-tune with God). My feelings

> are that perfecting devotion is good, but too abstract to be able

to

> heal in such ways.

 

Several years ago there was a made-for-TV movie based on a tragic,

real-life situation. The parents of a diabetic boy did not believe

in doctors. They felt that taking him to a doctor would show a lack

of faith in God, and they would be sinning. They wanted and expected

a miracle, and the boy died.

 

One of the tragic aspects of this is that they already had a miracle

that they didn't avail themselves of. The miracle of insulin. It

wasn't easy to extract insulin from a pancreas. Doctors, scientists,

and researchers puzzled for years over how to do this. It wasn't as

simple as taking an extract of the pancreas. The insulin was

destroyed in the process. Finally, someone had the idea that certain

areas of the pancreas had to be " tied " off if one was going to be

able to get the insulin without it being destroyed. To me, the

discovery of insulin and being able to extract it was miraculous.

Once this problem was overcome, it opened doors for a lot of other

discoveries that helped diabetics. Diabetes was no longer a death

sentence in the West.

 

I feel the same way about the discovery of B12 and instrinsic factor

in regards to pernicious anemia. Once upon a time the only treatment

for pernicious anemia was for the person to eat I believe a pound of

raw liver per day. I imagine there have been and are a lot of people

with pernicious anemia who feel a great deal of heartfelt

thankfulness to God, medical research, and the universe in general

for the discovery of B12 injections. I know if I had a choice

between taking an injection and eating a pound of raw liver every

day, I'd be down on my knees thanking everyone and everything that I

had a choice besides raw liver or death. I don't even like the

stuff cooked.

 

I think there's miracles all around us if we would but realize it. I

still refer to magnesium as a miracle drug. It didn't cure me, but

it sure made a very big difference in what I can do and how I feel

now compared to before.

 

I think the refusal to see the miraculous and spiritual in the

mundane is a part of that viewing the physical and spirit as being

separate instead of unified.

[Guest guest]

<very big snip>

> - usually when i see someone who perhaps

> others would reccomend they do psychological

> counseling i recomend Five element Massage or

> Chi Kung or Tai Chi or Yoga or breathing exercises

> - or meditation - in my mind such techniques are

> much more effective than psychological training

> and some of them cost nothing and can be done

> in the privacy of ones own home for those who

> are house bound.

>

 

Well, there you have it.

Have you tried introducing your friend to a practioner of an Asian bodywork

therapy such

as Jin Shin Do or Masunaga's Zen Shiatsu?

[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine , " hyldemoer " <hyldemoer wrote:

 

>

> Well, there you have it.

> Have you tried introducing your friend to a practioner of an Asian

bodywork therapy such

> as Jin Shin Do or Masunaga's Zen Shiatsu?

>

 

Many people do not believe in the physical concepts of disease and

healing - my friend does not consider that she suffers from any kind

of 'physical' disease - in her mind suffering is all spiritual and

needs not medicines or exercises or therapies - it needs getting right

with God. This kind of mentality is similar to the Christian

Scientists - in fact my friend thinks very much like Mary Baker Eddy.

There are large numbers of people that have similar concepts. We have

many such people in India. My father does not believe in the standard

medical theory of healing disease he believes everyone must solve all

of their health issues themselves - 'naturally' - meaning food, Yoga,

and natural life style - never ever any 'medicines'. There are many

different views of how to cope with this life - medical theory is just

one.