Body/mind which is most important?

[Guest guest]

Do we need to go through psychotherapy to regain our health? Many

modern people have the mistaken idea that we have to solve our

`psychological' dilemmas before we can solve our `physiological'

dilemmas. This is getting the cart before the horse. The mind and body

are in no way separate entities the mind does not `lead' the body and

the body does not `lead' the mind. Solving our cultural problems or

our family problems or our relationship with creation problems will

only come as a result of solving our body and mind problems as a unit.

We are a self not two selves.

 

Since ancient times people have been healing themselves from disease

without any interest in the `psychological'. In fact in many

traditional societies it is considered egocentric to pay too much

attention to oneself. Constant self-preoccupation is considered

pathology and it needs treating. Anyone who is always watching their

mind and analyzing it's contents – is wasting their life in pathology

and need to come out of themselves and take a broader view. My

father's teacher says of this – the contents of the mind are waste

matter – it is the reflection of the toxic conditions of the moment or

of the clear healthy conditions of the moment – like urine or feces –

pay it no mind – let it go – it is always rising and going – as long

as we live the mind will be flowing – nothing but it's own continuity

is recurring – the nature of the mind is – it changes – it has

endlessly changed – if the mind has negative qualities then this

reflects disease – if the mind has good qualities this reflects health

– the mind reflects the qualities of the blood – and the blood

reflects the status of the organs – heal the organs and the mind will

naturally be healed.

 

This is such a big subject – many modern people have written

extensively on this – Like Lonny Jarrett and Leon Hammer – who give a

clear exposition in TCM terms of what is the mind and why do we have

the particular qualities of mind that we have.- but the works of these

people are a little heavy going (very technical) and are probably not

of interest to everyone – I like the work of Harriett Bienfield

because she has a modern western orientation on TCM and makes it clear

what is the relationship between the organs and the mental phenomenon

and her way of expressing this is something most people can understand..

[Guest guest]

Hi, my name is Matt Polly and I am a TCM student entering my final semester. I

enjoy very much just about every post from Vinod, and respect his perspectives

and approaches very much. As an acupuncturist and herbalist very much drawn to

the mind/body/spirit triumvirate in human experience, I feel compelled to

encourage this analysis further.

 

Before I comment on the topic, I must admit puzzlement at the absence of Spirit

in Vinod's post. I wonder whether conceptually it is included in his reference

to mind, or whether he was simply comparing mind and body (leaving Spirit out of

it). However that may be, I should like to propose the inclusion of Spirit when

discussing the human being (and recovery of health) in totality. I will

certainly shy away from the slippery task of delineating mind from Spirit for

fear of semantic and metaphysical backlash. But let me at least offer up that in

TCM school we are taught to look into our patient's eyes to see if their Shen

(Spirit) is bright. If it is, we conclude that there is indeed hope for a

positive outcome.

 

But my interest in the contribution of Spirit to human manifestation goes well

beyond that. I have an as of yet unfounded suspicion that most serious disease

(perhaps with exception of the most virulent external pathogens) stem from a

Spiritual disharmony far upstream. I choose the word 'upstream' quite

purposefully as I am inexplicably attracted to the metaphor of a 'stream of

manifestation', flowing from some type of Source through Spirit, then Mind and

finally manifesting physically in Body. Some amazing successes with (my elective

minor in) Five Element acupuncture seem to support this at least.

 

Two more things. First, as Vinod referenced, Lonny Jarrett has written quite

profoundly on these questions (he is a Five Element acupuncturist). Lonny would

chime in here and correctly point out that each of the Zang (solid) organs, the

Lungs, Heart, Liver, Spleen and Kidney, have their own corresponding Spirit. So

this makes any analysis even more complex. Finally I should point out that in

TCM school we are taught that there are two main categories for disease

causation, the first external and the second internal (the third includes

miscellaneous causes such as trauma and work exhaustion, etc). There are the six

external evils (that attack the body from the exterior ) and seven internal

emotions (that attack the body from the interior). Numerically (and therefore

symbolically) it seems that the Ancients may have given an edge to the mind. I

would be interested in the thoughts of other practitioners, especially with

regard to the role of Spirit in disease manifestation and the recovery of

health.

 

Sincerely,

 

Matt

 

--

_

Play 100s of games for FREE! http://games.mail.com/

[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine , " Matthew Polly " <mattpolly

wrote:

 

> Before I comment on the topic, I must admit puzzlement at the

absence of Spirit in Vinod's post. I wonder whether conceptually it is

included in his reference to mind, or whether he was simply comparing

mind and body (leaving Spirit out of it). However that may be, I

should like to propose the inclusion of Spirit when discussing the

human being (and recovery of health) in totality.

 

There is no consensus on the meaning of this term -therefore many

become confused by it. The western understanding of spirit is often

very different from the Oriental understanding. Since the TCM

understanding of spirit is included in the concept of body/mind it is

not necessary to use this term. The TCM concept of the Shen is not a

popular understanding in the west and is not equivilant to the western

word Spirit as it is commonly used.

[Guest guest]

Hi Vinod,

I agree with you that on the way to healing we need to treat illness

on both the psychological level and physical level. But I would think

that there are many cases in which a psychotherapy would be more

helpful than an acupuncture or herbal therapy. For instance, someone

who has on going resentment towards his environment mainly because he

was abused in his early childhood.. He may be suffer from severe

emotional problems (Liver Qi stagnation) but the root cause of the

problem is mainly mental. By focusing on the mental problem, I would

think, there is more chance of healing the liver Qi stagnation than

by giving him Xiao Yao San or acupuncture Tai Chong (Liv -3)

Of course there are times when a woman is blood deficient, and all the

psycho-therapy in the world would not solve here mental problems , as

long as she doesn't change her diet and supplement her blood.

So I would sum up, that the emphasis on the therapy is dependent on

the root cause the illness , and of course the best way is to use

different modalities (TCM, Talk - therapy, Taichi , Yoga and etc)

together.

Just my 2-cents.

Guy Sedan

TCM Practitioner

 

 

 

2006/8/6, Vinod Kumar <vinod3x3:

>

>

> Do we need to go through psychotherapy to regain our health? Many

> modern people have the mistaken idea that we have to solve our

> `psychological' dilemmas before we can solve our `physiological'

> dilemmas. This is getting the cart before the horse. The mind and body

> are in no way separate entities the mind does not `lead' the body and

> the body does not `lead' the mind. Solving our cultural problems or

> our family problems or our relationship with creation problems will

> only come as a result of solving our body and mind problems as a unit.

> We are a self not two selves.

>

[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine , " Guy Sedan " <guysedan wrote:

>

 

> who has on going resentment towards his environment mainly because he

> was abused in his early childhood.. He may be suffer from severe

> emotional problems (Liver Qi stagnation) but the root cause of the

> problem is mainly mental. By focusing on the mental problem, I would

> think, there is more chance of healing the liver Qi stagnation than

> by giving him Xiao Yao San or acupuncture Tai Chong (Liv -3)

> Of course there are times when a woman is blood deficient, and all the

> psycho-therapy in the world would not solve here mental problems , as

> long as she doesn't change her diet and supplement her blood.

 

The answer to your question is found in the last statement in your

paragraph. Many have the mistaken idea that emotions are the cause of

disease - they are not - they are cofactors - just as a woman might

have emotional issues when suffering from PMS these emotions are not

the cause they are the result - and after we have these emotions the

organs will be further damaged. One can do as much 'talk therapy' as

one wants but my original point is that this is not needed. All over

the world people are being healed of serious disease processes without

any 'talk therapy'. Emotions are symptoms of disease they are not the

cause of disease - although they can exasperate the problem. the

relationship we have with our pareants is not the cause of disease -

it is an emotinal tag which gets revealed when we are under stress.

 

Example - anger harms the liver - but if the Liver was not already

stressed then it would be impossible to have anger. Anger is a symptom

of liver stagnation with heat which is causing the upward moving evil

wind. But the evil wind does not move up as a reaction unless there is

liver stagnation. So the correct way to solve issues of anger is to

drain the Liver. This method has been used for hundreds of years with

great success without any reference to 'talking therapy'.

 

My point is simple - if you want to analyze the contents of your mind

then by all means do so but do not think this will cure your disease

any more effectively or effeciently than the traditional ways of

healing disease. In TCM there is no such organ as 'the mind' - the

mind is considered to be an artifact of the organs - and in TCM the

healing of disease is done on the level of the organs and the blood -

it has always been considered that healing the organs and blood will

heal the mind - since the mind has no existance outside of the body.

 

I would like to answer some of Matt's points later where I will try to

define the differnce between many of the different terms being used.

Mind - Shen - Spirit - ego - conscious - unconscious - superego - etc.

are words that are often confused in popular usage. Example often when

people are refering to mind they actually mean Shen and reverse - Shen

and mind are not the same - although mind is included in Shen - it is

only an aspect of Shen - it in no way defines the depth of Shen. We

can live without mind (in this sense mind is ego) - but we can not

live without Shen which is our true self. That which changes is the

false self - the ego - it can go from one state to another many times

in the day - indeed the 'mind' changes hundreds of times a minute -

but the underlying truth that does not change is the Shen - the

Spirit. If we can clearly understand the difference between these

various aspects of self then we will understand who we are.

 

Just keep in mind that throughout history disease has been studied and

therapies have been developed and millions have been healed yet

'talking therapies' have never been common concepts in the healing

process - because they are not necessary.

[Guest guest]

Quote from Vinod...

" Just keep in mind that throughout history disease

has been studied and therapies have been developed and

millions have been healed yet 'talking therapies'

have never been common concepts in the healing process

- because they are not necessary. "

 

Our lifestyle/s is different than in the past. Just

because something might not have been necessary in the

past, doesn't mean it isn't necessary now or in the

future.

 

Besides that, I'd argue that shamanic healing (which

is the basis of all medical systems) is a form of

" talk therapy " or spiritual therapy (...trying to

avoid a boring discussion about semantics).

 

Some psychological problems are caused by external

factors (e.g. experiences or circumstances) which are

serious enough to be the sole cause of disease without

an underlying (anatomical) organ weakness.

 

The classics and their interpretations are a framework

to build upon. The beauty of this medicine is that it

is malleable, adaptable, *holistic*, and constantly

evolving.

 

-s

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dr. Vinod, I would like to know more about your classification of Shen

as being an umbrella concept for mind/ego/soul/sprit! Is there a book

or philosophical school that explains all this? What is your

cosmological understanding of how the Universe Works?

I know that this is off topic and it may not get through the gate

keeper... but I thought I would give it a try... I don't have your email

address so I could not send this directly to you, but mine is

dpichardo3!

 

Thanks,

Domingo

 

igneous_bear wrote:

>

> Quote from Vinod...

> " Just keep in mind that throughout history disease

> has been studied and therapies have been developed and

> millions have been healed yet 'talking therapies'

> have never been common concepts in the healing process

> - because they are not necessary. "

>

> Our lifestyle/s is different than in the past. Just

> because something might not have been necessary in the

> past, doesn't mean it isn't necessary now or in the

> future.

>

> Besides that, I'd argue that shamanic healing (which

> is the basis of all medical systems) is a form of

> " talk therapy " or spiritual therapy (...trying to

> avoid a boring discussion about semantics).

>

> Some psychological problems are caused by external

> factors (e.g. experiences or circumstances) which are

> serious enough to be the sole cause of disease without

> an underlying (anatomical) organ weakness.

>

> The classics and their interpretations are a framework

> to build upon. The beauty of this medicine is that it

> is malleable, adaptable, *holistic*, and constantly

> evolving.

>

> -s

>

> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __

>

>

> http://mail. <>

>

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

2006/8/7, igneous_bear <igneous_bear:

>

>

>

>

>

> Quote from Vinod...

> " Just keep in mind that throughout history disease

> has been studied and therapies have been developed and

> millions have been healed yet 'talking therapies'

> have never been common concepts in the healing process

> - because they are not necessary. "

 

I would be careful stating that " talk therapy " is not necessary. My

teacher, a doctor from China, once told me an ancient

story how a doctor was once called to treat a king who suffered from a

disease that nobody else managed to cure. The doctor took hils pulse ,

examined his tongue, and then told him something very insulting. The

king was furious and starting shouting and order to execute the

doctor. But before he request was done, the king suddenly noticed that

he was cured. By letting out his anger and acknowledging it, he was

cured from the disease. So talk therapy was actually used in ancient

time too.

>

>

>

> Our lifestyle/s is different than in the past. Just

> because something might not have been necessary in the

> past, doesn't mean it isn't necessary now or in the

> future.

 

I totally agree. TCM is evolving to be something which is greater

than what is practiced in China. I know that in China , people tend to

not express their emotions like in the west, so I think that talk

therapy can naturally be part of TCM in the west.

>

>

>

> Besides that, I'd argue that shamanic healing (which

> is the basis of all medical systems) is a form of

> " talk therapy " or spiritual therapy (...trying to

> avoid a boring discussion about semantics).

>

 

Exactly !

 

> Some psychological problems are caused by external

> factors (e.g. experiences or circumstances) which are

> serious enough to be the sole cause of disease without

> an underlying (anatomical) organ weakness.

>

 

Of course. If you open Giovanni Macicoa book " The Practice of Chinese

Medicine " for example, you will notice that almost every disease has

" Emotions " as one of its etiologies.

 

> The classics and their interpretations are a framework

> to build upon. The beauty of this medicine is that it

> is malleable, adaptable, *holistic*, and constantly

> evolving.

>

> -s

>

>

[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine , igneous_bear <igneous_bear

wrote:

>

 

 

> Besides that, I'd argue that shamanic healing (which

> is the basis of all medical systems) is a form of

> " talk therapy " or spiritual therapy (...trying to

> avoid a boring discussion about semantics).

 

How is talk therapy (dealing with the subconscious mind)and spiritual

therapy (dealing with the spirit)the same?

>

> Some psychological problems are caused by external

> factors (e.g. experiences or circumstances) which are

> serious enough to be the sole cause of disease without

> an underlying (anatomical) organ weakness.

 

If there is no underlying organ weakness then what is the disease and

where is it - healthy organs by definition means healthy affect and

reaction. Healthy people are not made ill by the ordinary challenges

of life - only ill people breakdown under stress. One person might be

overwhelmed by experience but others will simply get busy trying to

solve the problems. The differnce is in the organs one person has

healthy organs the other diseased organs.

 

> The classics and their interpretations are a framework

> to build upon. The beauty of this medicine is that it

> is malleable, adaptable, *holistic*, and constantly

> evolving.

 

Absolutely - this is why we do not need new concepts. The old model is

all that is needed to interpret every phenomenon. I am afraid that

perhaps some of these posters are trying to reinvent it is not

needed. Classic 5 element theory is complete in it's self and will be

suffecient to every time and circumstance.

 

Let us use the example of Leon Hammer - he is a very modern

psychologist who gave up the idea of talking therapy and took up the

work of Alaxander Lowen the developer of Bioenergetics and combined

this with TCM and is attempting to develop a new form of energetic

therapy. This is totally consistant with traditional TCM theory - TCM

is it self an energetic system. The old concepts of Fraud are no

longer popular in the psychological movement - the main reason why is

because in theory it sounds good but in fact it does not heal disease.

The list of great psychologists who have abandoned Fraud and developed

new, faster, and more advanced concepts than Fraud - all of these new

theories are energetic theories. The practice of systems like Chi Kung

will give much more effective results in 6 months of dedicated

practice than 20 years of 'talking therapy'. Even then the problems

will still be there. How many people going through classic

psychotherapy end up with diabetes, cancer, arthritis, heart disease,

etc? Classic psychotherapy does not heal disease. One acquaintance has

been in psychotherapy for ten years and in the meantime has been

diagnosed with CFS and has been sliding further into isolation and

depression. She says it helps to have someone to talk to (even she

does not believe anymore that psychotherapy is going to heal her).

Well my answer to that is find a friend and stop wasting time and money.

 

In traditional society the practice of meditation is highly valued -

yet the goal of meditation is the annihalation of the 'mind'. As I

said before the contents of the subconscious mind are not valued. The

empty mind - the clear mind - is what is valued. My meditation teacher

says when asked about things like difficult life - life is difficult

for all do not look for someone to blame like your father - who does

he get to blame - this is not a blame game - we are trying to clear

our minds of all of the past patterns - these are obsticles - so pay

them no mind and get on with practice - the less emphasis you put on

them the faster you will come out of them.

 

This is a difference in culture - modern western culture highly values

the ego and it's development - in the east we do not - we see the ego

as pathology and try to heal it. The understanding of the Buddhists,

Hindus, and Taoists on these issues is very different from the modern

western understandings. If one could understand the teachings of TCM

on these concepts then TCM as a science would become clearer. TCM is

not trying to heal the mind - it is trying to heal the organs - then

the mind will naturally get healed since it is nothing more than a

reflection of the status of the organs. Everyone who has gone through

the healing process knows this because the experience of healing of

the organs gives energy, balance, and integration - and when this

happens all parameters of the self improve - including fear, hate,

resentment, mental lethergy, depression, etc. etc.

 

It really is not useful to challenge each others cultural assumptions

- this tends toward racism or cultural chauvinism - which is not my

point. I am simply saying that it is not necessary for people (living

modern or traditional lifestyles) to do 'talking therapies' to regain

their health.

[Guest guest]

> How is talk therapy (dealing with the subconscious

> mind)and spiritual therapy (dealing with the

spirit)the same?

 

There's no amount of explaining that I could do that

could communicate how this has been part of shamanic

healing and how they are (or might be) connected. This

is something that you have to feel or know for

yourself. If you feel they are separate, they probably

are separate for you.

 

When I was in grad school (for another subject) we

grouped researchers into two basic

categories... " splitters " or " lumpers " ...I'd be a

lumper and you are probably a splitter.

 

> Healthy people are not made ill by the

> ordinary challenges

> of life - only ill people breakdown under stress.

 

Some challenges are extra-ordinary.

 

I don't think anybody is trying to reinvent chinese

medicine either. It's always been a very flexible tool

(or set of guidelines) to help people. Chinese

medicine has changed a lot, therapies have been added

to it, *and* it has a core that remains unchanged.

Like I said, that's the beauty of it.

 

And if you really want to get down to it, the

standardization of chinese medicine (aka TCM) by the

PRC, is a very modern invention. So chinese medicine

has been reinvented.

 

-s

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine , " Guy Sedan " <guysedan wrote:

 

>

> I would be careful stating that " talk therapy " is not necessary. My

> teacher, a doctor from China, once told me an ancient

> story how a doctor was once called to treat a king who suffered from a

> disease that nobody else managed to cure. The doctor took hils pulse ,

> examined his tongue, and then told him something very insulting. The

> king was furious and starting shouting and order to execute the

> doctor.

 

This modality of healing is not a common practice in in my 30

years of studing TCM I have never heard of such approachs to healing -

sounds more like a myth to me than reality. Anger is not a treatment

for any disease I have ever heard of - in fact anger itself is a

pathological symptom - why would any doctor try to stimulate his

patient to pathology. Neverthless when I am refering to talk therapy I

am not refering to this kind of thing. " Talk therapy' as we are

discussing here is a very specific modern theraputic concept developed

by the psychoanalyists. In regard to that concept I repeat 'talk

therapy' is not necessary and I will not be careful in expressing it -

I think it is a very important point - if anyone does not agree they

do not agree.

[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine , igneous_bear <igneous_bear

wrote:

 

> When I was in grad school (for another subject) we

> grouped researchers into two basic

> categories... " splitters " or " lumpers " ...I'd be a

> lumper and you are probably a splitter.

 

What does this mean?

[Guest guest]

" Lumpers " connect concepts together - seeing them as

one thing - they lump them together.

 

" Splitters " work to dissect concepts into smaller

parts - they split them apart.

 

-s

 

--- Vinod Kumar <vinod3x3 wrote:

 

> Chinese Traditional Medicine , igneous_bear

> <igneous_bear

> wrote:

>

> > When I was in grad school (for another subject) we

> > grouped researchers into two basic

> > categories... " splitters " or " lumpers " ...I'd be a

> > lumper and you are probably a splitter.

>

> What does this mean?

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine , igneous_bear <igneous_bear

wrote:

>

> " Lumpers " connect concepts together - seeing them as

> one thing - they lump them together.

>

> " Splitters " work to dissect concepts into smaller

> parts - they split them apart.

>

> -s

 

I thought this was what you meant - the problem is that you have got

it backwards. My whole life i have been trying to create a synthasis

which will link all concepts - this is because many - like some here -

think mind, body, and spirit are seperate and or that one is the

'cause' of the other. There is only the Tao and everything else is an

aspect of that - nothing is seperate from the Tao.

[Guest guest]

I want to stress that it's not so much emotions that can trigger

imbalances as the mishandling of emotions. The big exception to this

is if it's an unusually strong emotion that overwhelms coping

mechanisms or it gets blocked at some point.

 

The main ways that emotions are mishandled are suppression/denial,

over-indulgence, and substitution/ scapegoating.

 

I won't go into suppression/ denial here because a lot has been

written about it. I want to talk about over-indulgence and

substitution/ scapegoating. The two often are linked.

 

For some people, feelings of emotional pain, fear, vulnerability,

etc. are far more threatening than feelings of anger. Especially in

some cultures. So what they do is substitute anger as a way of not

having to feel what are to them far more threatening emotions. They

look for excuses to be angry in order to keep the other emotions at

bay. They over-indulge anger.

 

One technique that some TCM healers in China use is to deliberately

invoke certain emotions in a client in order to break the cycle of

another emotion. What some of the people who are over-indulging

anger and substituting it are doing is a form of self-medication.

It's one of the most self-defeating forms of self-medication, but

that's what they're doing. In other cases a person does this not so

much as substitution to keep from feeling more threatening emotions

but because this is the way things are done in the person's family

or community. In both these cases the person could benefit from

talk therapy to help break habits if nothing else. TCM treatment

would be particularly beneficially to the former.

 

Scapegoating can be particularly devasting not only to the person

being scapegoated but to the scapegoater. Again, this too can become

a habit.

 

There are times when spontaneous ahamanistic-like, archetypical

healing experiences occur. Having a shaman or a counselor to talk

with can be very helpful. Sometimes emotions can be particularly

threatening. Like when rage surfaces. Even though the person does

not act on the rage, the person has had to face that s/he's not

perfect and is capable of doing some very bad things. Again, a

therapist or preacher/ priest can be very helpful.

 

I want to stress as you did that there is no artificial separation

of body, mind, emotions, and spirit in Eastern medicine or thought.

A holistic unity is taken for granted. However it's easier for many

Westerners to reach this understanding through first talking about

these different aspects.

 

My grandfather and the relatives of his generation and before tended

to be extremely healthy. They also were very open with their

emotions. The complete range of emotions. They weren't suppressing/

denying, over-indulging, or substituting/ scapegoating.

 

I also want to stress that when an ill person receives counseling

what open happens is that the person copes a lot better with being

sick and some energy does get freed up. But the person is still

sick. It can be very cruel to present healing as just being a matter

of talk out the psychological problem (or take psychactive drugs)

and voila! one is cured. It's usually not the professional

therapists who believe this but the general public and sometimes

other medical professionals. Very often these people desperately

want to believe that if they should become sick they have this power

to make it go away. Also, the belief that a moment of catharsis can

cure is a lot less daunting than making diet and other life-style

changes, learning and doing the Qi Gong exercises, learning all they

can about the illness, etc. Also, it's very doubtful that the people

who believe this have ever experienced much of a catharsis about

anything in their lives. If they had, they'd know that what leads

up to a cartharsis and the actually going through it are far from

being a picnic. It's only afterwards that the person realizes the

benefits.

 

In a sick person the idea that talking something out and having a

catharsis can be a defense against facing up to how seriously ill

one is. It couldn't really be too serious if talking it out could

cure it. It also can be a defense against facing that one is

dependent on others in many respects. Dependent on their training,

their proficiency,and their concern.

 

Something else that needs to be considered when it comes to emotions

being handled and used properly is does the emotion transmute? What

I mean by this is for example the person admits to being very angry,

admits to him/ herself how angry s/he is toward someone else, and

then the anger goes away. The person is in a good mood. Ther anger

doesn't last. It transmutes.

 

Any time emotions don't transmute, that's a sign that something is

wrong. The person is holding onto anger, bitterness, etc. Many of

these people will benefit from a combination of talk therapy and

TCM. When a person who also needs talk therapy gets proper TCM

treatment, what oftens happens is that the person is stronger and

better able to benefit from the talk therapy.

[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine , igneous_bear

<igneous_bear wrote:

>

> Some psychological problems are caused by external

> factors (e.g. experiences or circumstances) which are

> serious enough to be the sole cause of disease without

> an underlying (anatomical) organ weakness.

 

A reminder that the TCM and in general the Eastern viewpoint is that

there is no division between body, mind, emotions, spirit. It's

taken for granted that there are going to be various manifestations.

 

Poorly handled or very strong emotions can trigger an Organ

imbalances, BUT it's also recognized that once Organ imbalance

occurs from any cause, the person is going to be more prone to

feeling the emotions associated with that Organ. It snowballs.

 

I've presented this as a two-way street, cause and effect happening

for the Westerns on the list. It would be more correct to say that

these things are occuring together. It's what Vinod was talking

about when he talked about there already was some kind of imbalance.

 

I know that sounds like a contradiction in terms. How could emotions

trigger imbalance of an Organ but imbalance already had to exist for

the emotions to trigger this both be true? It can't be from a

strictly Western, either/or viewpoint, but it is from a very

holistic Eastern viewpoint. If the emotions had just passed through

the person, chances are no imbalance would have occured. But the

fact that they didn't points to some kind of imbalance already

existing. Most Westerners will tend to think in terms of a physical

imbalance. However, TCM doesn't make that distinction. The imbalance

is in the spiritual, emotional, and mental aspect as well as the

physical. My use of the term " aspect " is strictly for the Westerners

on the list. Remember, TCM Organs are collections of functions.

There are physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual aspects to

those Organs.

 

Personally, I think talk therapy in some cases can be a great

adjunct to TCM as TCM can be to talk therapy. It won't be necessary

in all cases, but in some cases it can provide that little extra

something that can increase the chances of healing.

[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine , " Vinod Kumar " <vinod3x3

wrote:

>

> Absolutely - this is why we do not need new concepts. The old

model is

> all that is needed to interpret every phenomenon. I am afraid that

> perhaps some of these posters are trying to reinvent it is

not

> needed. Classic 5 element theory is complete in it's self and will

be

> suffecient to every time and circumstance.

 

Actually, TCM has evolved over the centuries. A good example being

The 4 Levels of Virulent Heat Evils being added to the 6-Stages of

Cold Induced Illnesses. The Chinese didn't throw out the 6-Stage

model (it still worked), they added the 4-Levels model for the cases

that didn't fit the 6-Stages model. I suspect that the reason TCM

lasted over the centuries in China is that when the Chinese kept

encountering things that didn't fit the existing medical paradigm,

they expanded it to include the other cases. They didn't replace

the original paradigm, they expanded it.

 

> etc? Classic psychotherapy does not heal disease. One acquaintance

has

> been in psychotherapy for ten years and in the meantime has been

> diagnosed with CFS and has been sliding further into isolation and

> depression. She says it helps to have someone to talk to (even she

> does not believe anymore that psychotherapy is going to heal her).

> Well my answer to that is find a friend and stop wasting time and

money.

 

There are so many CFIDS support groups on the Internet and in local

communities. Is she checking any of these out, and if so, why not.

 

The term " talk therapy " isn't limited to Freud's psychoanalysis.

 

> - this tends toward racism or cultural chauvinism - which is not my

> point. I am simply saying that it is not necessary for people

(living

> modern or traditional lifestyles) to do 'talking therapies' to

regain

> their health.

 

There are some cases where talk therapy (including group therapy)

can be very helpful. I'll be glad to elaborate on this if you wish.

 

BTW, sometimes the benefit of talk therapy comes not from help in

facing up to something that was/is wrong but in learning that one

actually is very normal. Yes, I know that the latter shouldn't be

necessary, but sometimes it is. (I'm not talking about people not

feeling appropriately guilty about certain things - which is a

misuse to which psychology sometimes is put - but situations like

those that sometimes happen in highly dysfunctional families. It

often turns out the the family member having the most problems

actually is the healhiest person in the family. This person's

impulses toward the healthy are regarded as abnormal by most of the

rest of the family, and they've given this person a constant message

that there is something wrong with him/ her when the reality is

there's something wrong with them. For example, in a family of

liars, a person who is disturbed by the lack of honesty and the

lying is regarded as abnormal within the family.)

 

I also want to point out that in the past and even today in other

cultures, there are people who perform many of the functions of

psychologists and counselors. For example, when one woman (or man)

in the community was having a problem, the other women (or men)

would get together and intervene. A type of group therapy but yet

going beyond what is meant by group therapy in the modern world.

[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine , " Vinod Kumar " <vinod3x3

wrote:

 

> This modality of healing is not a common practice in in my 30

> years of studing TCM I have never heard of such approachs to

healing -

> sounds more like a myth to me than reality. Anger is not a

treatment

> for any disease I have ever heard of - in fact anger itself is a

> pathological symptom - why would any doctor try to stimulate his

> patient to pathology.

 

Actually, this is a fairly common treatment. And it's not limited

to TCM. See a previous post of mine for comments on this sometimes

being a self-medicating thing.

 

> Neverthless when I am refering to talk therapy I

> am not refering to this kind of thing. " Talk therapy' as we are

> discussing here is a very specific modern theraputic concept

developed

> by the psychoanalyists.

 

Actually the term " talk therapy " is applied to more systems than

psychoanalysis. It refers to treatment which is not drug treatment.

[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine , igneous_bear

<igneous_bear wrote:

>

> " Lumpers " connect concepts together - seeing them as

> one thing - they lump them together.

>

> " Splitters " work to dissect concepts into smaller

> parts - they split them apart.

 

Please do not make generalizations like this about other members on

this list. It polarizes instead of enlightens.

 

I think what a lot of people are going to discover is that there

actually is more agreement than is apparent at first. I also want

to remind readers that this is an international list. There are

multiple tranlations going on. The only way people are going to see

the common ground and gain a more complete understanding than before

is to keep talking.

 

It would be helpful to many readers to provide some example of

shamanistic and/or archetypical healing situations and the results.

This is a very valid aspect of healing. The primary focus of this

list is TCM, but readers are interested in all aspects of healing.

Which is pretty much what the modern Chinese are doing too.

[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine , " victoria_dragon "

<victoria_dragon wrote:

 

> I want to stress as you did that there is no artificial separation

> of body, mind, emotions, and spirit in Eastern medicine or thought.

> A holistic unity is taken for granted. However it's easier for many

> Westerners to reach this understanding through first talking about

> these different aspects.

 

Thanks for this post - we from eastern traditional cultures simply

have a different model of reality. So we beg forbearance if we do not

have much interest in 'psychology'. Our orientation is very different

when it comes to the 'mind'. In my posts on this subject I have only

one real point - in answer to the question is it necessary to have

psychological counseling to recover health(?) my answer is no it is

not necessary - if it is a part of your model of health and disease

then do it but just know it is not necessary - you can recover your

health without such things.

 

So much of this is cultural. Just as in the other thread about Shen it

is a matter of cultural and personal view of reality. On such things

there can be no consensus. These are core concepts for all of us and

no one can influence us - so best agree to disagree. Last year I

mentioned that I wanted to post on the subject of Shen but my wife

disagreed - she said - the study of Shen is something like religion

don't get involved in religion - it is frought with danger - everyone

will want to argue the subject.

[Guest guest]

I want to emphasize again that some of the functions performed by

psychologists and counselors in the West are performed by others in

other cultures. In the West some of the things that these healers do

used to be handled by priests and preachers. Some priets and preachers

still handle some of these things.

[Guest guest]

> Please do not make generalizations like this about

> other members on this list. It polarizes instead of

enlightens.

 

My comment was meant to illustrate why we were coming

at this subject from such different points of view. I

consider spiritual and " talk " therapy to be the same

thing whereas he considers them to be very different

things. I lump them together and he splits them apart.

 

 

Vinod asked me a question so I answered it.

 

-s

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine , " victoria_dragon "

<victoria_dragon wrote:

>

 

>

> Actually, TCM has evolved over the centuries. A good example being

> The 4 Levels of Virulent Heat Evils being added to the 6-Stages of

> Cold Induced Illnesses. The Chinese didn't throw out the 6-Stage

> model (it still worked), they added the 4-Levels model for the cases

> that didn't fit the 6-Stages model. I suspect that the reason TCM

> lasted over the centuries in China is that when the Chinese kept

> encountering things that didn't fit the existing medical paradigm,

> they expanded it to include the other cases. They didn't replace

> the original paradigm, they expanded it.

 

I have posted here many times about the fact that TCM is not one

system of thought it is many and always has been - but the theory of

the five elements remains the same no matter how it is interpreted.

Many great things can come through the Chinese system but much

nonsense as well. This is true of all systems of knowledge everything

has it's good and bad sides.

 

> I also want to point out that in the past and even today in other

> cultures, there are people who perform many of the functions of

> psychologists and counselors. For example, when one woman (or man)

> in the community was having a problem, the other women (or men)

> would get together and intervene. A type of group therapy but yet

> going beyond what is meant by group therapy in the modern world.

>

I think this is one of the issues where we get into conflict when

discussing these subjects - when I am refering to psycholgy and talk

therapy I am talking about the new 'science' of psychology and

psychotherapy - a science which has it's own theories of consciouness

and theories of how to heal disease - most of these theories (not

all)in my opinion are false and in the same catagory as many ideas of

healing in the west. On the other hand I strongly believe that the

family and the society should gather around and support people in

their disease and healing process - but this does not heal the disease

it is only a support.

[Guest guest]

Vinod Kumar wrote:

> Last year I

> mentioned that I wanted to post on the subject of Shen but my wife

> disagreed - she said - the study of Shen is something like religion

> don't get involved in religion - it is frought with danger - everyone

> will want to argue the subject.

 

I, for one, would be happy just to hear what you have to say on that

subject without having to argue about it!

 

Just one question about your statement that that disease organs are the

root cause of psychological pathology... isn't the nervous system

(including the Brain) consider as some sort of organ or part of an organ

system in TCM? I am implying, of course, that what we in the Western

World call " mind " is a function of our nervous system , including all

our feedback sensory systems, like visual, olfactory, auditory, etc! If

this is true, than there is a physical component(an organ system) to

what we call " mind " that would be readily assessable to all the various

models of treatments used for say the liver system. It seems to me that

this will end this argument of Mind being separate from Body!

 

Dom

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine , Domingo Pichardo

<dpichardo3 wrote:

>

 

> I, for one, would be happy just to hear what you have to say on that

> subject without having to argue about it!

>

> Just one question about your statement that that disease organs are the

> root cause of psychological pathology... isn't the nervous system

> (including the Brain) consider as some sort of organ or part of an

organ

> system in TCM? I am implying, of course, that what we in the Western

> World call " mind " is a function of our nervous system , including all

> our feedback sensory systems, like visual, olfactory, auditory, etc!

If

> this is true, than there is a physical component(an organ system) to

> what we call " mind " that would be readily assessable to all the various

> models of treatments used for say the liver system. It seems to me that

> this will end this argument of Mind being separate from Body!

>

> Dom

>

Dom - most of this is a matter of defining terms. We must understnad

what is being refered to when we use the word 'mind' - in TCM the mind

is a function of the Heart - the Shen - all organs have Shen but the

essence of Shen is the heart function. The mind in this sense are the

cognitive and analytical functions - the sense of self and other - the

Ego - etc. The nervous system belongs to the Kidney functions. There

is some controversy about where the mind comes from since some say the

Shen - some say it comes as a result of the relationship between the

Kidneys and the Heart - some say it comes through the

Kidney/Liver/Heart generation cycle - this last is the one I

to - this is too complicated to go into here - you can read about

these issues in Lonny Jarrett and Leon Hammer.

 

We humans have a mind other creatures do not - but they do have

nervous systems - organs - endocrine glands - brains - consciouness -

perception - etc. Mind is an artifact of the evolutional process in

human beings in the the systems I follow - it is an aspect of ego or

of the sense of self - it is a synthasizing process - it brings

evloutional advantage over those who do not see or understand the

difference between self and other - like a tiger who has no awarness

of an antelope other than as an object of their hunger.It also is

important in the development of intelligence since it uses analysis to

solve problems - in fact this analytical function is a primary aspect

of mind.

 

But some human beings since ancient times have said that we have a

higher function of perception which is clearer and more effecient than

mind - it is more effecient because it is direct perception as opposed

to being filtered through the ego - this function is inherant in the

human condition since anyone can develop it - we actually are very

familar with it since we pass in and out of it all of the time - this

is called things like being in the flow - meaning pure experience -

direct experience without any ideas or viewpoints or analysis is one

form of it - this can happen as peak experiences or as ordinary things

like making love where it is possible to lose a sense of self and just

be in the present moment. Those who have mastered this type of

consciouness have developed many techniques for achieving it - Chi

Kung - Kung Fu (meaning in this sense the achievment of higher goals)

- meditation - TCM in it's higher manifestations has as it's objective

not just health in the ordinary sense but what they think is a higher

state of consciouness and perception - in traditional Chinese culture

this was called the development of the Qi and Shen - the highest level

of this is pure Shen (anshen)- my teacher (a Japanese Zen Master) says

of this - do not worry about the Qi worry about the Shen (the Spirit)

because in the end all of us will be abanonded by the Qi - but Shen

will sustain you to the last breath.

 

Hundreds of books from many traditions have been wriiten on the

achievment of higher consciouness and higher physical realization.

None of these teachings believe that higher consciouness is seperate

from the body they believe it is a simple undeveloped aspect of body -

coming from defecient states. Each system has a slightly different

emphasis but the core of all is annihalation of the mind (ego

functions)and the realization of the highest consciouness - anshen

consciounesss - some call the quality of this consciouness as love -

or compassion - or universal awareness - many things. there are many

staqes of this realization and there are highly developed scientific

concepts on how to achieve the no mind state. So this is why many

people coming from Eastern cultures do not hold the mind in the

highest regard we hold the develoment of Shen consciouness as being

the goal of life.

 

 

 

 

 

 

In TCM the nervous system is an aspect of the Kindney function.