western pulse diagnosis

[Guest guest]

I've always known that TCM has used pulse diagnosis as one of the

main forms of diagnosis, but I never really thought of how extensively

western medicine uses pulse diagnosis. I would like to open a post up

for people to share the ways that they know of that western medicine

uses the pulse to diagnose. I found some interesting information on

wikipedia, but I would like to know more if anyone has anything to

share.

 

 

 

The page I found on wikipedia was:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse_diagnosis

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse_diagnosis>

 

 

 

With this quote:

 

" Similar concepts appear in modern Western medicine. For example,

certain kinds of heart attacks, such as ventricular fibrillation, may be

identified by feeling the pulse and characterizing its speed, strength,

and rhythm. A fast, weak, thready pulse might indicate certain kinds of

heart failure or shock from blood loss. A pulse present in the upper

arm, but not at the wrist, is indicative of unusually low blood

pressure. Certain kinds of cardiac dysrhythmias (irregular rhythms),

such as ventricular tachycardia or atrial fibrillation, may be diagnosed

by overt patient symptoms and feeling of the pulse, and characterizing

its speed, strength, and rhythm.

 

 

 

Also, ventricular defibrillation is a procedure done emergently with an

AED or defibrillator paddles or patches in a Code Blue situation when a

patient is in ventricular fibrillation. Heart attacks, or myocardial

infarctions, are diagnosed with ECG readings, cardiac enzymes from blood

draws, the history and presentation of the patient's symptoms, and

physical exam findings. Cardiogenic shock presenting from an acute MI

could include the physical findings of a weak or thready pulse. "

 

Thanks in advance!

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the info.

 

I know that cardiologists recognize more things about the pulse than

other doctors do.

 

Also that in the days before machines for tests became common in

medicine, doctors learned to tell more from the pulse than they do

today. They were very attuned to variations. There are still a few of

these doctors alive, but they're very, very old.

[Guest guest]

<victoria_dragon wrote:

Also that in the days before machines for tests became common in

medicine, doctors learned to tell more from the pulse than they do

today. They were very attuned to variations. There are still a few of

these doctors alive, but they're very, very old.

 

Yeah, that is exactly what I am talking about! It is kind of an old

thing and they definately don't use it much anymore. Do you know any

of these kinds of examples?

[Guest guest]

> Yeah, that is exactly what I am talking about! It is kind of an old

> thing and they definately don't use it much anymore. Do you know

any

> of these kinds of examples?

>

Only in a general way.

 

Machines can do some things that people can't do. BUT people can do

some things that machines can't do. Also, machines are only as good

as the people who develop or program them. If the person designing or

programming the machine doesn't know about something, it's not going

to get included or programmed into the machine.

 

Machines can never be anything but aides. They can't take the place

of humans. IMO a big factor in the decline of Western medicine is the

over-reliance on machines. Doctors were given the message that the

machine is superior to doctors for diagnosis instead of just something

that could do some very limited things to help the doctors.

Consequently doctors stopped paying attention to things like pulse and

what certain things mean. They also began to doubt their diagnostic

abilities when compared to machines and tests. Healing suffered

because if doctors don't realize what they can do that machines can't

and if they have no faith in their abilities, this works against them

realizing what tests need to be ordered and correctly interpreting the

ones they do. Medicine often isn't as clearcut as a machine's maker

presents it as being.

 

As bad as the situation is with doctors being trained to have little

or zero confidence in their observation and abilities if not backed up

by a machine, it pales beside the way patients all too often are

regarded in modern allopathic medicine. As total idiots who don't have

sense enough to get in out of the rain, who are incapable of correctly

observing anything that is happening to the bodies they dwell in 24/7,

and who are prone to depression and anxiety because they can't handle

stress.

 

MDs and DOs used to listen to patients a lot more than they do today.

They knew there are limitations on what machines can do and without

the patients' input they were operating in the dark. They also

accepting that there are limitations to what medical science

understands. They not only were prepared for an expanding paradigm as

they learned more, they expected it. Not so today. All too often

today there is an arrogant attitude that everything that needs to be

known and understood is known and understood. This simply is not so.

 

Take the example of patients who report feeling feverish in the

afternoon and evening. If the thermometer says the patient's

temperature is normal or even below normal, the doctor all too often

conclues that there is something wrong with the patient's perceptions

and the patient possibly has psychological problems. The reality is

that there's nothing wrong with the patient's perceptions. The patient

is suffering from something which is very common that TCM learned to

recognize centuries ago: Kidney Yin Deficiency.

[Guest guest]

G'day All,

-Dr.Stan K., a cardiologist echoes Dr. Dragon's

observations of M[edical D[ieties]s:

cheers,

dar

 

 

Dr. Stan's

'CODE OF ETHICAL BEHAVIOR FOR PATIENTS'

 

1. DO NOT EXPECT YOUR DOCTOR TO SHARE YOUR DISCOMFORT.

Involvement with the patient's suffering

might cause him to lose valuable

scientific objectivity.

 

2. BE CHEERFUL AT ALL TIMES.

Your doctor leads a busy and trying life

and requires all the gentleness

and reassurance he can get.

 

3. TRY TO SUFFER FROM THE DISEASE

FOR WHICH YOU ARE BEING TREATED.

Remember that your doctor has a professional

reputation to uphold.

 

4. DO NOT COMPLAIN IF THE TREATMENT

FAILS TO BRING RELIEF.

You must believe that your doctor has achieved a deep

insight into the true nature of your illness,

which transcends any mere permanent

disability you may have experienced.

 

5. NEVER ASK YOUR DOCTOR TO EXPLAIN WHAT HE IS DOING

OR WHY HE IS DOING IT.

It is presumptuous to assume that

such profound matters

could be explained in terms that you would understand.

 

6. SUBMIT TO NOVEL EXPERIMENTAL TREATMENT READILY.

Though the surgery

may not benefit you directly, the resulting research

paper will surely be of widespread interest.

 

7. PAY YOUR MEDICAL BILLS PROMPTLY AND WILLINGLY. You

should consider it a privilege to contribute, however

modestly, to the well-being of

physicians and other humanitarians.

 

8. DO NOT SUFFER FROM AILMENTS THAT YOU CANNOT AFFORD.

It is sheer arrogance to contract illnesses that are

beyond your means.

 

9. NEVER REVEAL ANY OF THE SHORTCOMINGS THAT HAVE COME

TO LIGHT IN

THE COURSE OF TREATMENT BY YOUR DOCTOR. The

patient-doctor

relationship is a privileged one,

and you have a sacred duty to

protect him from exposure.

 

10. NEVER DIE WHILE IN YOUR DOCTOR'S PRESENCE OR UNDER

HIS DIRECT

CARE.

This will only cause him needless inconvenience and

embarrassment.

 

 

Re: western pulse diagnosis

victoria_dragon wrote:

> Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:54 am (PDT)

>

> > Yeah, that is exactly what I am talking about! It

> is kind of an old

> > thing and they definately don't use it much

> anymore. Do you know

> any

> > of these kinds of examples?

> >

> Only in a general way.

>

> Machines can do some things that people can't do.

> BUT people can do

> some things that machines can't do. Also, machines

> are only as good

> as the people who develop or program them. If the

> person designing or

> programming the machine doesn't know about

> something, it's not going

> to get included or programmed into the machine.

>

> Machines can never be anything but aides. They

> can't take the place

> of humans. IMO a big factor in the decline of

> Western medicine is the

> over-reliance on machines. Doctors were given the

> message that the

> machine is superior to doctors for diagnosis instead

> of just something

> that could do some very limited things to help the

> doctors.

> Consequently doctors stopped paying attention to

> things like pulse and

> what certain things mean. They also began to doubt

> their diagnostic

> abilities when compared to machines and tests.

> Healing suffered

> because if doctors don't realize what they can do

> that machines can't

> and if they have no faith in their abilities, this

> works against them

> realizing what tests need to be ordered and

> correctly interpreting the

> ones they do. Medicine often isn't as clearcut as a

> machine's maker

> presents it as being.

>

> As bad as the situation is with doctors being

> trained to have little

> or zero confidence in their observation and

> abilities if not backed up

> by a machine, it pales beside the way patients all

> too often are

> regarded in modern allopathic medicine. As total

> idiots who don't have

> sense enough to get in out of the rain, who are

> incapable of correctly

> observing anything that is happening to the bodies

> they dwell in 24/7,

> and who are prone to depression and anxiety because

> they can't handle

> stress.

>

> MDs and DOs used to listen to patients a lot more

> than they do today.

> They knew there are limitations on what machines can

> do and without

> the patients' input they were operating in the dark.

> They also

> accepting that there are limitations to what medical

> science

> understands. They not only were prepared for an

> expanding paradigm as

> they learned more, they expected it. Not so today.

> All too often

> today there is an arrogant attitude that everything

> that needs to be

> known and understood is known and understood. This

> simply is not so.

>

> Take the example of patients who report feeling

> feverish in the

> afternoon and evening. If the thermometer says the

> patient's

> temperature is normal or even below normal, the

> doctor all too often

> conclues that there is something wrong with the

> patient's perceptions

> and the patient possibly has psychological problems.

> The reality is

> that there's nothing wrong with the patient's

> perceptions. The patient

> is suffering from something which is very common

> that TCM learned to

> recognize centuries ago: Kidney Yin Deficiency.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I need to clear something up. I'm not a doctor, just someone who got

a lot of help from TCM.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/27/2006 9:13:26 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

mrasmm writes:

 

There are still a few of

these doctors alive, but they're very, very old.

 

 

 

What is very very old? I have a western medical book, it has pulse

information and it was printed in the 1970's.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine , KarateStan wrote:

>

> What is very very old? I have a western medical book, it has

pulse

> information and it was printed in the 1970's.

 

80s and 90s for the most part.

 

Does the western medical book go into the kind of detail on the

pulse that TCM does? Is it a general medical book or for

cardiologists? Cardiologists are taught even today to recognize

some things about the pulse that other doctors aren't taught.

 

I want to go into some detail here for the list members who are new

to TCM. When a Western doctor (or usually a nurse) takes the pulse,

s/he usually only checks one site on one wrist. In a TCM pulse

diagnosis a minimum of 12 pulses are taken, 6 at a time. The TCM

healer uses 3 fingers on each hand to check the pulse at 3 sites on

each wrist/ arm at the same time. At first the pressure is light.

That's 6 pulses. Then the pressure is increased. That's 6 more.

 

Why vary the pressure? For one thing, if the pulse is not felt

regardless of the amount of pressure, that's diagnostic.

A " floating " pulse is one that can be felt with very light or no

pressure. The healer barely rests his/her fingers on the artery. A

floating pulse usually points to a problem in the Exterior (i.e.,

head, neck, arms, legs, skin, muscles, meridians, and bones).

However sometimes anemia or cancer will cause the pulse to

float " because Qi is very deficient and 'floats' to the surface of

the body. " (Giovanni Maciocia, The Foundations of ,

p. 167.

 

The opposite of a floating pulse is a deep pulse. This is one that

can only be felt with heavy pressure applied. A deep pulse points to

the problem being Interior (i.c., affecting the Organs of the body).

 

In general, a slower than normal pulse points to Cold being

present. (Cold slows things down.) The exception to this is if the

person is a well-conditioned athelete. Their pulses will be slower

than normal. In general, a rapid pulse points to Heat. Heat speeds

things up. An exception sometimes will be a person who is

overweight.

 

A hollow pulse is one that can be felt with no pressure but as

pressure is added, it disappears and then reappears with even

stronger pressure. " In other words, it is empty in the middle. " (p.

169.) This is one that doctors and nurses would benefit from

learning to recognize. This pulse is felt after a person has lost

blood. BUT - and here's where learning to recognize a hollow pulse

could really help - " If the pulse is rapid and slightly Hollow it

may indicate a forthcoming loss of blood. " (p. 170.) In other words,

it can be predictive. The doctor knows to monitor the patient more

closely, knows to order some tests, and is prepared for a possible

emergency. The doctor may even be able to prevent the loss of blood.

If the patient is hospitalized and about to be released, the doctor

may choose to keep the patient in the hospital for another 24 hours

for observation. I can see how being able to recognize a hollow

pulse could come in very handy for patients who have a history of

bleeding ulcers.

 

I have barely scratched the surface of pulse diagnosis. Maciocia

lists 28 in The Foundations of (pp. 167-171.)

The " width " of the pulse also is considered - how broad or narrow?

How strong or weak? Does it stop at regular or irregular intervals?

What is its " shape " . Does it feel like pearls gliding beneath one's

fingers or like a bean? Is it tight or wiry? Etc. All these things

tell the experienced TCM pulse taker something about what imbalances

the client may be suffering from.

 

BTW, TCM healers often will wait to do the pulse diagnosis until

after doing the tongue diagnosis and talking for a while with the

client. This is done because people usually are nervous about seeing

a healer, and that will affect the pulse. By waiting, the client has

a chance to feel more comfortable with the healer and relax.

[Guest guest]

I already posted this once and it didn't show up, so I am going to

try again... sorry if it's a duplicate =)

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine , KarateStan wrote:

> What is very very old? I have a western medical book, it has

pulse

> information and it was printed in the 1970's.

 

 

If you get some time and feel up to it could you post some of these

examples? I would really appreciate it.

 

The reason why I ask is because I think it is very useful to explain

to people who have never seen TCM pulse diagnosis that traditional

western medicine also uses the pulse to tell a myriad of things. If

you can relate western medicine to TCM it really helps because it

shows how both medicines have found the same things, which gives it

more creditability/believability with people who are new to TCM.

After all the body is the body, so even if two forms of medicine and

thought study it, some things should be the same. It's not a widely

known thing that western medicine uses these kinds of tricks, and it

seems like if you can share something that people relate to and

already know (ie western medicine), they have a better time looking

at something openly and taking a hold of it.

 

Maybe I should also open up the question to include other

similarities between TCM and western medicine that could also help

people personally relate to it in a familiar way.