Raw vegetables?

[Guest guest]

>

> I am fairly new to the issue of healthy eating. Reading Pitchford and

> learning a bit of Macrobiotics , showed me two different approaches

> regarding the value of raw vegtables. Pitchford shares the Chinese

thinking

> that consumption of raw vegtebales can harm the digestive system

(injure the

> Spleen) while the Macrobiotics hold that raw vegetables are

healthier than

> cooked. Am I correct?

>

 

Those with defeciency diseases should not eat raw foods. Those with

excesses without cold or sluggish conditions can benefit from raw

foods. In general in TCM raw food is rarely recomended for ill people.

The best diet books for TCM are Bob Flaw's books on diet (The Tao of

Healthy Eating, etc.) - Bob helps us to understand the various Organ

patterns and eat according to the needs of the Organ systems that are

under stress. Those with defeciency syndromes should avoid raw and or

cold food as it makes the Stomach/Spleen stagnations worse.

 

In Japan there is a new concept of eating that is a blend of some of

the western ideas about diet and the traditional ideas. This style of

eating is called various things but one term I like is 'Tsukemono' -

Tsukemono means pickles. This is the preperation of vegetables mainly -

although fruits and meats are also prepared this way - by lightly

pickeling them for a few hours - this gives a food that is mildly

fermented and wilted - making the vegetables more digestable without

cooking them (some vegetables are briefly blanched before pickleing)-

if one has eaten in a Japanese restuarant you have probably had

Tsukemono as they are a traditional side-dish with rice and meat -

they are the crunchy wilted vegetables served in small dishes on the

side - commonly used vegetables are cabbage and daikon. This style of

eating is a compromise between eating raw food and cooked food.

 

This style of eating consists of cooked rice as the basis of diet with

several side-dishes of Tsukemono and or raw fish (sashimi). My wife

and I eat this way in the summer time in California for supper. This

style is a very light easy to digest way of eating. It is suited as a

primary way of eating for those who do not have the most severe forms

of stomach stagnations and defeciency - it can be too cold for those

with severe hypometabolic conditions - who should eat warm soupy foods.

 

There is a very good book on making 'quick' Tsukemono - Tsukemono can

be pickles that are preserved for months or even years - but the type

we are reffering to are the quick Tsukemono that are prepared in a few

hours or overnight at the most - the name of the book is 'Easy

Japanese Pickling' by Seiko Ogawa - we have enjoyed every recipe we

have made from this book.

[Guest guest]

I have always had a lot of trouble eating raw vegetables, raw fruit

and all nuts. I would have lots of gas and bloating. Recently,

someone introduced me to the work of Joel Fuhrman, a nutrition

oriented physician who advocates something called blended salads. Raw

fruits, veggies, nuts and/or seeds are put into a high powered blender

and essentially pureed into a soup like consistency. I've been

pleasantly surprised at how my body has had no ill effects from eating

raw food in this manner.

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine , " Vinod Kumar " <vinod3x3 wrote:

>

> >

> > I am fairly new to the issue of healthy eating. Reading Pitchford and

> > learning a bit of Macrobiotics , showed me two different approaches

> > regarding the value of raw vegtables. Pitchford shares the Chinese

> thinking

> > that consumption of raw vegtebales can harm the digestive system

> (injure the

> > Spleen) while the Macrobiotics hold that raw vegetables are

> healthier than

> > cooked. Am I correct?

> >

>

> Those with defeciency diseases should not eat raw foods. Those with

> excesses without cold or sluggish conditions can benefit from raw

> foods. In general in TCM raw food is rarely recomended for ill people.

> The best diet books for TCM are Bob Flaw's books on diet (The Tao of

> Healthy Eating, etc.) - Bob helps us to understand the various Organ

> patterns and eat according to the needs of the Organ systems that are

> under stress. Those with defeciency syndromes should avoid raw and or

> cold food as it makes the Stomach/Spleen stagnations worse.

>

> In Japan there is a new concept of eating that is a blend of some of

> the western ideas about diet and the traditional ideas. This style of

> eating is called various things but one term I like is 'Tsukemono' -

> Tsukemono means pickles. This is the preperation of vegetables mainly -

> although fruits and meats are also prepared this way - by lightly

> pickeling them for a few hours - this gives a food that is mildly

> fermented and wilted - making the vegetables more digestable without

> cooking them (some vegetables are briefly blanched before pickleing)-

> if one has eaten in a Japanese restuarant you have probably had

> Tsukemono as they are a traditional side-dish with rice and meat -

> they are the crunchy wilted vegetables served in small dishes on the

> side - commonly used vegetables are cabbage and daikon. This style of

> eating is a compromise between eating raw food and cooked food.

>

> This style of eating consists of cooked rice as the basis of diet with

> several side-dishes of Tsukemono and or raw fish (sashimi). My wife

> and I eat this way in the summer time in California for supper. This

> style is a very light easy to digest way of eating. It is suited as a

> primary way of eating for those who do not have the most severe forms

> of stomach stagnations and defeciency - it can be too cold for those

> with severe hypometabolic conditions - who should eat warm soupy foods.

>

> There is a very good book on making 'quick' Tsukemono - Tsukemono can

> be pickles that are preserved for months or even years - but the type

> we are reffering to are the quick Tsukemono that are prepared in a few

> hours or overnight at the most - the name of the book is 'Easy

> Japanese Pickling' by Seiko Ogawa - we have enjoyed every recipe we

> have made from this book.

>

[Guest guest]

Even though I had very marked Deficiency and Cold, I benefited from

some raw foods. I felt better the day after having a side salad. I

observed this repeatedly.

 

I want to stress that I was not eating raw food at every meal. Or

even every day for that matter. And the salad usually consisted of

just lettuce and tomatoes. (I also tended to crave tomatoes during

the period. Not just raw tomatoes but any cooked dishes made with

tomatoes.)

 

Two other raw foods I benefited from were cherries and strawberries.

They were and are like medicine to me. I always feel better for

several days after consuming them. The strawberries in particular

help my muscles.

 

I didn't and don't feel worse if I don't get strawberries or

cherries. But I feel better if I do eat them.

 

I'd like to see more study into the raw food issue because I've

known too many people who reported feeling better after consuming

them. Is there a genetic difference, a difference in the way the

crops are grown (in particular the use of untreated sewage as

fertilizer and feces-borne bacteria gets on the crops), a difference

in what other foods the person is eating, etc.?

 

There are general diet guidelines, and there are even guidelines for

specific imbalances and medical conditions. But ultimately

individuals need to be aware of the effect of what they eat on their

health. There is no substitute for paying attention. Just because a

certain diet is great for one's next door neighbor or even 90% of

the population, that doesn't mean the diet is correct for a specific

individual.

 

If one feels worse if one doesn't get a certain food, feels

temporarily better after eating it, but then quickly feels worse if

more is not eaten, that points to it being a problem food for the

individual. If one craves a certain food but doesn't feel worse if

one doesn't get it but feels better if one does, that points to the

person needing something in the food. one also looks at overall

improvement for a period of time vs. overall decline over a period

of time.

 

There is no diet that isn't harmful to someone - regardless of how

healthy it may be to other people. For example, people with adrenal

insufficiency and certain other problems should not be cutting way

down on salt. They often need a little bit more salt than other

people do. People whose cholesterol is below normal or even very low

normal should not be limiting their intake of cholesterol-containing

foods. Some things that the body needs very much are made from

cholesterol.

 

There is no way around the fact that some individuals are going to

need to severely curtail or even completely eliminate some foods at

least for a while. The 4 main examples I can think of offhand are

sugar, salt, dairy, and wheat. As far as all people eliminating all

sugar forever, that could be very unhealthy. For example, in TCM

there are times when sugar is added to some formulas for some

individuals. Just like some formulas call for their being taken with

a pinch of salt. There are no one-size-fits-all diets, only

individuals with different needs.

 

The Chinese idea of a balanced meal is one that contains all 5

flavors - sweet, salty, sour, bitter, and spicy. TCM also teaches

that a person runs into problems when there is too much OR too

little of a particular flavor in the diet. The Chinese also

consider food to be the first line of defense in maintaining good

health. However the ratio of the flavors needed by particular

individuals is going to differ.

 

TCM also consider the season of the year when planning meals.

 

Personally, I favor a lot of variety. As much as a person can

handle. Obviously if the person is so weak that a lot of foods

bother the person, this will be hard or impossible to do until the

Spleen is improved. But it's a goal to work for.

 

Our ancestors in the US ate a far greater variety of food than the

majority of their descendents do today. They had to eat what was in

season and available. There were no supermarkets or even

refrigeration until the last century. Supermarkets and the ability

to transport food from one region or even country to another have

been major factors in the decline of variety in the American diet.

There is a tendency to pick up just one's favorite foods week after

week when grocery shopping. For the first time in history they're

available like this year round or nearly year round. In the past,

people ate what was available when it was available. A lot of

greens in the spring because these are among the first foods

available as the weather began to warm slowly, strawberries followed

by blackberries and blueberries as they ripened, other vegetables

and fruits as they ripened, various nuts as they matured and fell

from trees, etc. Our ancestors also ate a far greater variety of

grains than are eaten today. For example, how many US readers on

here have even heard of millet, not less actually eaten some? How

often do people in the US eat barley? For that matter, how often do

people in the US eat oatmeal or oat bread? Not very often. There is

a tendency to stick with one's favorites because they are available

year round or nearly so. When one eats a lot of different foods,

one's chances of getting everything the body needs are increased.

[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine , " sethwai " <sethwai wrote:

>

> I have always had a lot of trouble eating raw vegetables, raw fruit

> and all nuts. I would have lots of gas and bloating. Recently,

> someone introduced me to the work of Joel Fuhrman, a nutrition

> oriented physician who advocates something called blended salads.

Raw

> fruits, veggies, nuts and/or seeds are put into a high powered

blender

> and essentially pureed into a soup like consistency. I've been

> pleasantly surprised at how my body has had no ill effects from

eating

> raw food in this manner.

 

Has there been an improvement in the way you feel and your overall

health since you started doing this?

 

This also illustrates the importance of various factors. The first

steps in digestion are the teeth tearing and grinding the food into

very tiny pieces and the particles mixing with saliva. (BTW, saliva

is considered very important in TCM.)

 

For various reasons, an individual may not be chewing his or her

food long enough or lacks the ability to grind the food into small

enough pieces to ease later digestion. Or the person has a need for

food ground smaller than the teeth can grind it. Everything works

together, so one thing for healers to consider is the health of the

mouth. Does the person have problems with the teeth or problems

with sore gums or any other problems like a lack of saliva that work

against those very important first steps in digestion?

 

I want to caution readers that the mouth benefits from chewing so

the way to good health is not to puree everything and allow the

mouth muscles to atrophy. BUT, this is something that can be very

helpful to someone with a weak Spleen and/or Stomach and/or various

problems like bad teeth, sore gums, not enough saliva, etc. until

the person improves to the point of being able to get enough

nutrition by chewing well.

 

I want to point out something else that can work against a person

chewing food long enough. If the person's sense of taste is

deficient, there is a tendency to swallow quickly just to lessen

hunger pangs. If the person can fully taste food, there is a

tendency to chew it longer.

 

Spleen Deficiency can result in a lessened sense of taste. So can

zinc defiiency. If there is any sense of taste left at all, most

people do not realize that their sense of taste is very deficient.

It's only when their sense of taste improves that they realize that

it was off.

 

This is one of those snowballing situations. If the first two steps

of good digestion are not being adequately performed, the Spleen is

not getting all that it needs to be strong, and chances are the body

is not getting enough zinc and other things it needs (like the raw

materials to make digestive enzymes). As time goes by, the sense of

taste gets more and more deficient and the person tends to swallow

sooner and sooner which results in less and less being available and

so on.

 

BTW, a poor sense of taste will tend to manifest in one of two

ways. Either the person will tend to eat less than needed or the

person will tend to eat a lot - depending on the total picture or

the body's health. For example, if there is Heat in the Stomach,

the person will tend to overeat just to stop the hunger pangs.

 

Contrary to most of the usual introductory TCM textbooks, Spleen

Deficiency does not always result in poor appetite. The appetite

can be very strong in some cases of Spleen Deficiency. Deficient

appetite is what usually happens, but the opposite can occur if

certain other factors are present. However the person with excessive

appetite and weak Spleen isn't savoring the food any more than the

person with deficient appetite and weak Spleen. In both cases,

strengthening the Spleen (and supplying zinc if it's needed) and

improving the sense of taste will work to balance the appetite to

normal.

 

I also want to stress again that if there is any sense of taste at

all, the person with a diminished sense of taste usually will not

realize it until the sense of taste starts to improve.

[Guest guest]

--- A most interesting essay. You asked a rhetorical question about

millet. I am only in my 50s, but we ate millet at home. We were poor

(not by today's sissy standards, either) and so grain (I know it's

supposed to be acid forming and unhealthy by today's thinking) was a

good sized part of our family's diet. I believe that my parents

obtained the millet from my grandparents, who got it from neighbour

farmers who had emigrated from the middle east (Syria, possibly).

 

We boiled it up and consumed it with hot milk from our cows. Boy, that

is tasty. So, I and my children still have it.

[Guest guest]

It's too early to say whether my overall health has been improved. I

have a lifetime of digestive diffulties that has recently culminated

in reflux esophagitis. I have tried mestern herbal remedies,

acupuncture and more recently chinese herbal medicine from a local

well regarded herbalist. I haven't had much success. Even the

western meds don't work all that well. Dr Fuhrman has suggested the

blended salads and juices from cruciferous vegetables. To date (I've

been doing the blended salads for about 2 weeks now, I'm waiting for

my juicer to arrive in the mail) I notice that I can eat raw foods

whereas in the past I couldn't tolerate them well. Also, my bouts

with disorientation/dizziness have diminished. To be fair the

herbalist has also started me on a new herbal combination (thid is

combo number 8 or so) which might be having an effect as well.

 

To your point on chewing well, I do have a tendency to eat too fast.

Even when I try to be conscious and eat slowly eventually my mind

starts to wander and my eating speed increases.

 

It's interesting to read your point on Spleen Deficiency manifesting

as excessive hunger. I have always had a problem with a big appetite.

I'm very skinny, always have been, yet in the past I could out eat

some very overweight people and still not gain weight. It helped that

I was a vegetarian.

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine , " victoria_dragon "

<victoria_dragon wrote:

 

> Has there been an improvement in the way you feel and your overall

> health since you started doing this?

>

> This also illustrates the importance of various factors. The first

> steps in digestion are the teeth tearing and grinding the food into

> very tiny pieces and the particles mixing with saliva. (BTW, saliva

> is considered very important in TCM.)

>

> For various reasons, an individual may not be chewing his or her

> food long enough or lacks the ability to grind the food into small

> enough pieces to ease later digestion. Or the person has a need for

> food ground smaller than the teeth can grind it. Everything works

> together, so one thing for healers to consider is the health of the

> mouth. Does the person have problems with the teeth or problems

> with sore gums or any other problems like a lack of saliva that work

> against those very important first steps in digestion?

>

> I want to caution readers that the mouth benefits from chewing so

> the way to good health is not to puree everything and allow the

> mouth muscles to atrophy. BUT, this is something that can be very

> helpful to someone with a weak Spleen and/or Stomach and/or various

> problems like bad teeth, sore gums, not enough saliva, etc. until

> the person improves to the point of being able to get enough

> nutrition by chewing well.

>

> I want to point out something else that can work against a person

> chewing food long enough. If the person's sense of taste is

> deficient, there is a tendency to swallow quickly just to lessen

> hunger pangs. If the person can fully taste food, there is a

> tendency to chew it longer.

>

> Spleen Deficiency can result in a lessened sense of taste. So can

> zinc defiiency. If there is any sense of taste left at all, most

> people do not realize that their sense of taste is very deficient.

> It's only when their sense of taste improves that they realize that

> it was off.

>

> This is one of those snowballing situations. If the first two steps

> of good digestion are not being adequately performed, the Spleen is

> not getting all that it needs to be strong, and chances are the body

> is not getting enough zinc and other things it needs (like the raw

> materials to make digestive enzymes). As time goes by, the sense of

> taste gets more and more deficient and the person tends to swallow

> sooner and sooner which results in less and less being available and

> so on.

>

> BTW, a poor sense of taste will tend to manifest in one of two

> ways. Either the person will tend to eat less than needed or the

> person will tend to eat a lot - depending on the total picture or

> the body's health. For example, if there is Heat in the Stomach,

> the person will tend to overeat just to stop the hunger pangs.

>

> Contrary to most of the usual introductory TCM textbooks, Spleen

> Deficiency does not always result in poor appetite. The appetite

> can be very strong in some cases of Spleen Deficiency. Deficient

> appetite is what usually happens, but the opposite can occur if

> certain other factors are present. However the person with excessive

> appetite and weak Spleen isn't savoring the food any more than the

> person with deficient appetite and weak Spleen. In both cases,

> strengthening the Spleen (and supplying zinc if it's needed) and

> improving the sense of taste will work to balance the appetite to

> normal.

>

> I also want to stress again that if there is any sense of taste at

> all, the person with a diminished sense of taste usually will not

> realize it until the sense of taste starts to improve.

>

[Guest guest]

> Even though I had very marked Deficiency and Cold, I benefited

from

> some raw foods. I felt better the day after having a side salad. I

> observed this repeatedly.

 

There are several factors involved in whether we can eat 'raw' foods

or not. As Bob Flaws points out two factors are temperature of a

food the other is it's energetics. Many common foods - cucumber,

celery, watermelon, etc. - are cold or cool in their energetics and

chemically 'cool' the body - they do this in various ways but in

most cases it has to do with alkaline mineral content. Beyond those

foods - lists of which can be found in books like Dr. Henry Lu's or

Bob Flaws' - the issue is mainly a matter of temperature. Foods of a

gneral Yin nature like fruit will not cause stagnation processes if

they are taken at room temperature or greater and if their energetic

is not cool or cold. Many people with cold symptoms can easily eat

foods of a neutral or cool nature with no problems if the food is

body temperature or warmer.

 

In Japan and certain circles in Europe and America 'cooked salads'

are becoming popular - even some macrobiotic people eat this new

style (not really very new) of food preperation - this is an attempt

to eat 'raw' foods without the side-effects. Many wondeful dishes

can be made by lightly sauteing vegetables and fruits - tossing them

in dressing and eating like a salad. Other dishes can be made by

very lightly blanching vegetables and or fruit and serving with oil

or butter and soy sauce - these foods can also be dressed like a

salad - one good dressing for cooked salads is Tahini dressing with

garlic - this is another way to 'warm' the cool energetics of raw

foods - a good Tahini dressing made with maple syrup or honey is

delicious on a cooked Waldorf salad (apples, raisins, celery)- if

one is very cold add some cinnamon and or ginger. These dishes must

of course be eaten warm. Yesterday i wrote about Tsukemono - these

should ALWAYS be eaten at room temperature.

 

In the long run cold temperature is more harmful to the

Stomach/Spleen than cool energetics. So those with real

hypometabolism should avoid refrigerated foods. The energetics of

foods can of course be balanced by other energetics - so cold

vegetables can be warmed with oil, salt, garlic, warm spices, etc. -

fruits with warming spices.

 

Many times 'cold' on the surface is not equavilant to 'cold'at the

core. Many times the issues of cold are not true hypometabolism they

are symptoms of poor circulation. Poor circulation can manifest as

generalized cold or surface cold or inner cold (perhaps with

shivering or trembeling) or there can be cold in some organs and

tissues and not others. In energetics foods have relative energetics

this is the meaning of hot, warm, neutral, cool, cold - relative

energetic effects - so many can eat the foods in the warm, neutral,

cool range with minimum problems - for another large minority warm,

and cool foods can easily be eaten if they are eaten with balancing

energetics (warm and cool together - or slightly warmer energetics

taken to balance a cool energy. In the case of very cold energetics

in food one must simple try it and see if it causes stomach problems

or other symptoms of cold - example watermelon - some can eat

watermelon with no problems if they only take it once in a while but

taking it daily for several days will start making cold symptoms -

some can not take watermelon or watermelon juice by itself but can

take it with a little salt or spice.

 

All of these factors must be discovered on one's own it will never

be the same for everyone - there are so many variables. when

discussing general rules of health pleases remember that these rules

will apply in an individual way for everyone - this does not negate

the rules - the rules are a framework for discovering individuality -

what works best for oneself? A person with a normal temperature of

98.6 will have a completely different relationship to the energetics

in foods than someone with a normal temperature of 97.5 and an even

different relationship when the temperatures drop to 95.5. The same

works for other variables like PH a person with a PH of 7 has a very

different relationship to the energetics in foods than does someone

with a PH of 5.5. One can go on and on - another important varibale

is the individual balance of the endocrine glands - another is

preheaven (genetic)strength or weakness of the Organs. We really are

indiviuals and are not just variations on a theme. General rules

like hot and cold will be applied in different ways depending on our

individuality - it is the same law appied personally instead of

generally - this is essential to achievment of health. Several here

including me have warned that there is no size fits all in any rule

of natural law - we are individuals and manifset the laws of nature

in perso

 

This becomes even more of a tight wire walk when we take into

consideration the fact that most of us are a combination of both hot

and cold - real elevated heat and real reduced heat but also we have

in this mix - false heat and false cold. Sorting these many

variables is what the study of medical science in ourselves and

others is all about. Simply learning a lot of rules about physiology

does not in any way make us a healer - this comes from learning to

see the rules and the variables in a persons life. When meeting

others please do not try to fit the person into the rule book - try

to discover the rule book in the person - or let the person reveal

their own version of the rule book - then medical science becomes a

living method with power to effect change - not just an intellectual

exercise or a list of rules that do not really apply to anyone in

the abstract.