question on signs of improvement in TCM treatments

[Guest guest]

I'm no expert in psychological treatment in TCM. I'm not even a

clinical practitioner. I'm just someone who got a lot of help from

TCM.

 

It seems to me that after 8 months, there should have been some

improvement in the things you consulted the TCM healer about. I mean

stronger nails are nice and you're obviously getting something you

need, but the main problems aren't responding. In healing, problems

are ranked according to seriousness and need. Suffering from

depression, anxiety, fears, and feelings of hopelessness obviously

are a lot more important and critical than weak nails. There should

have been some significant improvement in the most important things

that you consulted the healer about in the first place.

 

I would consult another TCM healer. One not associated with that

clinic. There is a phenomenom in healing where a healer can get

stuck in the wrong groove. He or she can't see beyond what s/he's

already seen. This also can extend to healers in practice with a

healer doing this. They are reluctant to see that he's in the wrong

groove. They are reluctant to disagree with a collegue. This is a

phenomenom which can happen in all schools of healing, allopathic

medicine included.

 

> I've also been taking calcium for my

> bones, and my nails are certainly better, but that external sign

has

> no bearing on my emotional state, and I don't take calcium as a

> way

> to feel better psychologically.

 

Actually, calcium and magnesium sometimes are taken for their

calming effects. Does the Ca supplement you're taking also contain

Mg? It's best if it does. Or, you may be one of those people who

need more Mg than Ca.

 

One of the things Mg does in the body is it's a GABA-enhancer. GABA

is an inhibitory neurotransmitter. NMDA is an exitetatory

neurotransmitter. When there is too much GABA relative to NMDA,

coma can result. When there is too much NMDA relative to GABA,

seizures can result. But long before the person gets to the seizure

stage, there can be problems. Problems like nervousness, insomnia,

tics, muscles spasms, fatigue, and feeling overwhelmed by sensory

input (the nerves are " firing " too much). A part of nerves " firing "

too much (not enough inhibition), a touch can feel painful. There

is a lowered pain theshold. The patterns in a rug and the smells in

a supermarket can seem overwhelming.

 

Muscles need Mg in order to be able to relax. Besides causing one to

be too tense, muscles that can't relax can be very fatiguing.

 

Too much Mg just like too little can be lethal, so this most

definitely is NOT as case of " if a little is good, more is better " .

You may want to Google for the work of Mildred Seelig, MD. She's an

expert on Mg and medical conditions associated with Mg-deficiency.

It's a long list.

 

Edema can cause some people to feel anxious. (BTW, one of the roles

of the Spleen Qi in TCM physiology is to transport and transform

liquids in the body.)

 

Mild, undiagnosed asthma can cause anxiety. And fatigue.

 

Hypothyroidism can cause anxiety and depression as well as fatigue.

 

I hope you're also consulting a MD or DO to rule these things in or

out. They need to be ruled in or out, and a TCM healer can't do

this. (Not unless the person also is a MD or DO.)

 

Weak nails can point to Liver and/or Gall Bladder problems. GB

Deficiency can result in a person being too timid and lacking

resolve.

 

Fear can be a symptom of Kidney imbalance. Fear also can damage the

Kidneys. Sadness - especially unresolved grief and " letting-go "

issues are associated with the Lungs. Anger and frustration are

associated with the Liver.

 

Actually, anger in your case may be a sign that you have improved.

It's not emotions per se that are always damaging to various Organs

and the body. It's the mishandling of those emotions. The main ways

an emotion can be mishandled is suppression/ denial, over-

expression/ inappropriate expression, and substituting one emotion

as a way of not feeling a more threatening emotion.

 

There's nothing healthy about suppressing an emotion. It's best to

simply acknowledge it and use it appropriately. For example, there

has never been a social change for the better that hasn't been

fueled at least in part by people getting fed-up and demanding

sumething better.

 

This brings us to step 2. The appropriate expression of an emotion,

neither too much or too little and in an appropriate way. Expressing

your anger to someone who has kept you waiting is appropriate. " I

don't like that. You showed no consideration for me. " Taking the

person's head off with a 2X4 is not.

 

Sometimes people will substitute one emotion for another which is

more threatening to the person. Some people get depressed instead

of acknowledging their anger because depression is less threatening

to them than anger is. Other people hold onto and over-express

anger as a way of not having to feel what is to them more

threatening emotions like tenderness and caring and feelings of

vulnerability.

 

Some untreated viral infections can cause extreme and rapidly

changing emotions that have nothing to do with anything that is

happening in the person's life or anything in the psyche. It's

strictly a bio-chemical effect of some viral infections.

Mononucleosis is notorious for this. Both the Epstein Barr Virus

(EBV) and Cytomaegalovirus (CMV) - the two leading causes of mono

(glandular fever) - are especially bad for this. When you see a MD

or DO, it's a good idea to raise this possibility with the doctor

and ask for a monospot test to rule in or out. The test used in the

US is a cheap test. I believe around $5 or $10 dollars. If I had my

way, a monospot test would be routine every time someone saw a

doctor and complained of fatigue, depression, pain in the sides,

feeling overwhelmed by emotions, lymph nodes swelling, constant low

grade fever or a lower than normal body temperature, and some of the

other symptoms and signs of mono. A lot of people in the US -

including doctors - don't realize how serious mono can be and how

widespread. They also don't realize that there are such things as

recurring and chronic mononucleosis (glandular fever). The test that

can reveal chronic or recurring mono is a fairly expensive test, and

it only checks for EBV cases of mono.

 

I hope something in here helps. Please keep talking with us.

Someone else may come up with something that will help.

 

Victoria

[Guest guest]

Linda - I have been following your messages and really feel for you. Although I

am only iin my 3rd year of TCM studies, and definitely not an expert, I have

been a patient, on and off, for some time, trying different practitioners, at

different times. I understand your confusion. I also would be wanting to feel

better already, after all the treatment and herbs, and asking questions as you

are. I also think that part of the treatment process is to get you involved in

your own healing, whatever that means - making dietary changes, exercise or

resolving emotional issues that may be there. I have been to practitioners who

would only see me once a month, and required me to take charge of my health, by

eating differently, exercising and whatever. There are a lot of different ways

that acupucture/herbs can help with depression and emotional issues, and perhaps

you haven't found the type of practitioner who understands your basic

constitution and energetic makeup.

 

If you have any specific questions, or would like to tell me more, perhaps I can

provide you with some information and help.

 

Good luck,

Joyce S.

email: joyces

-

keats65

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Monday, February 07, 2005 8:42 AM

[Chinese Traditional Medicine] question on signs of improvement in TCM treatments

 

 

 

 

I'd like to ask a question regarding TCM when used for emotional

problems like depression, sadness, anxiety, and hopelessness.

I've

been in treatment for eight months, and wrote in a while back asking

if you thought it was time for me to change doctors, as I hadn't

experienced improvement after six months. My diagnosis was spleen

and kidney qi deficiency with phlegm.

 

Right after Christmas, a substitute doctor I saw once didn't even

want to renew the powdered herb formula I was on, as after examining

me, she didn't feel it was strong enough. When my regular doctor

came back he changed the formula, and tells me it now includes

three " heavily sedating herbs, " as well as something for

" energy, "

(although you can't prove either by me) and something for phlegm.

 

 

I'm feeling as bad as ever, but he's saying he sees

" subtle

improvement, " and tells me how " terrible " I looked when I

first

started treatment, and what " a mouse " I was when I first

walked in,

and am now, apparently looking less mouse-like to his eye. I think

I was just feeling uncomfortable and nervous in a very strange

environment, which obviously isn't so strange after eight months.

 

He also said he can tell by my eyes and skin (which he says has

" a

sheen " ) that I have more qi. None of this matters much to me as

I

still feel terrible.

 

I have stressed over and over (with tears pouring down my face) that

I am there for emotional help with depression, fears, and

hopelessness, and I have been trusting that he is giving me

appropriate treatments for those symptoms. Even if there are

external improvements, (and I'm not convinced of it) I'm

heartbroken

to think they may not even have been giving me the right treatment

for my specific complaints. I've also been taking calcium for my

bones, and my nails are certainly better, but that external sign has

no bearing on my emotional state, and I don't take calcium as a

way

to feel better psychologically. The external sign of my nails

getting stronger is irrelevant, and has no bearing on an improvement

in my emotional state, but externally there is a change.

 

Is this even a relevant comparison? I'm just wondering if

he's

grasping at straws, trying to convince me to stay in treatment even

though it hasn't helped, by pointing out external, (and my mind

irrelevant) " signs, " stressing that they are so

" subtle " I may not

even notice them myself. After eight months of herbs taken three

times a day, accompanied by acupuncture treatments at first weekly,

now every other week, I would expect more than " subtle "

external

signs, that are supposed to be encouraging, when my emotional

suffering remains unchanged.

 

So that's my question. Are those signs irrelevant? Do external

signs turn up before there's any internal (read emotional)

improvement? For eight months of treatment, is a sheen in our skin,

and more qi in your eyes all that someone suffering emotionally can

realistically expect, or am I total idiot to have continued this

long? It seems more instinctive to expect internal changes to happen

first, finally working their way out, and manifesting in changes in

your appearance. Have you heard of physical changes occurring first,

followed later by the desired emotional improvement?

 

I'm very upset and disappointed in my treatment, and need to know

from experts when to throw in the towel with TCM, and when to hang

on for a little longer. I may be one of those people who can't

be

helped by TCM, and I'm not looking to blame anyone. I can't

trust

the doctors at the clinic (I've seen four over eight months), as

despite the high sounding talk in their brochure on " Taoist

ethics, "

they obviously are in a money making business, and make more money

the longer they encourage you to keep coming, and it's doubtful

they

would ever tell anyone the truth about when to say when, as long as

you continue to pay their bills. I'm sorry to sound so cynical,

but

I'm devastated, and any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thank you so much in advance,

Linda

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Hi Linda,

I agree with you that it may be high time that you looked for a

'second opinion', on your diagnosis and treatment, maybe they are

honestly trying to treat you to the best of their ability, but

you may need someone more experienced in TCM to really make a

difference. For thew run-of-the-mill complaints, a regular TCM

doctor can do the trick, but in more involved cases, one needs to

be very discerning and sensitive, besides much knowledge and

experience.

And they may be treating your state as a physical imbalance only,

and not being attentive to the emotional, psychic side of the

treatment.

Now, there is another thing, sometimes one may be passing through

a period in life of loss and much stress, if the situation that

opresses us continues to act on one during the treatment, then it

is difficult to 'be well'. So we must try to do something to

change our situation too.

 

Marcos

 

--- keats65 <keats65 escreveu:

>

 

> I'd like to ask a question regarding TCM when used for

> emotional

> problems like depression, sadness, anxiety, and hopelessness.

> I've

> been in treatment for eight months, and wrote in a while back

> asking

> if you thought it was time for me to change doctors, as I

> hadn't

> experienced improvement after six months. My diagnosis was

> spleen

> and kidney qi deficiency with phlegm.

>

> Right after Christmas, a substitute doctor I saw once didn't

> even

> want to renew the powdered herb formula I was on, as after

> examining

> me, she didn't feel it was strong enough. When my regular

> doctor

> came back he changed the formula, and tells me it now includes

> three " heavily sedating herbs, " as well as something for

> " energy, "

> (although you can't prove either by me) and something for

> phlegm.

>

>

> I'm feeling as bad as ever, but he's saying he sees

> " subtle

> improvement, " and tells me how " terrible " I looked when I

> first

> started treatment, and what " a mouse " I was when I first

> walked in,

> and am now, apparently looking less mouse-like to his eye. I

> think

> I was just feeling uncomfortable and nervous in a very strange

> environment, which obviously isn't so strange after eight

> months.

>

> He also said he can tell by my eyes and skin (which he says has

> " a

> sheen " ) that I have more qi. None of this matters much to me

> as

> I

> still feel terrible.

>

> I have stressed over and over (with tears pouring down my face)

> that

> I am there for emotional help with depression, fears, and

> hopelessness, and I have been trusting that he is giving me

> appropriate treatments for those symptoms. Even if there are

> external improvements, (and I'm not convinced of it) I'm

> heartbroken

> to think they may not even have been giving me the right

> treatment

> for my specific complaints. I've also been taking calcium for

> my

> bones, and my nails are certainly better, but that external

> sign has

> no bearing on my emotional state, and I don't take calcium as a

> way

> to feel better psychologically. The external sign of my nails

> getting stronger is irrelevant, and has no bearing on an

> improvement

> in my emotional state, but externally there is a change.

>

> Is this even a relevant comparison? I'm just wondering if

> he's

> grasping at straws, trying to convince me to stay in treatment

> even

> though it hasn't helped, by pointing out external, (and my mind

>

> irrelevant) " signs, " stressing that they are so

> " subtle " I may not

> even notice them myself. After eight months of herbs taken

> three

> times a day, accompanied by acupuncture treatments at first

> weekly,

> now every other week, I would expect more than " subtle "

> external

> signs, that are supposed to be encouraging, when my emotional

> suffering remains unchanged.

>

> So that's my question. Are those signs irrelevant? Do

> external

> signs turn up before there's any internal (read emotional)

> improvement? For eight months of treatment, is a sheen in our

> skin,

> and more qi in your eyes all that someone suffering emotionally

> can

> realistically expect, or am I total idiot to have continued

> this

> long? It seems more instinctive to expect internal changes to

> happen

> first, finally working their way out, and manifesting in

> changes in

> your appearance. Have you heard of physical changes occurring

> first,

> followed later by the desired emotional improvement?

>

> I'm very upset and disappointed in my treatment, and need to

> know

> from experts when to throw in the towel with TCM, and when to

> hang

> on for a little longer. I may be one of those people who can't

> be

> helped by TCM, and I'm not looking to blame anyone. I can't

> trust

> the doctors at the clinic (I've seen four over eight months),

> as

> despite the high sounding talk in their brochure on " Taoist

> ethics, "

> they obviously are in a money making business, and make more

> money

> the longer they encourage you to keep coming, and it's doubtful

> they

> would ever tell anyone the truth about when to say when, as

> long as

> you continue to pay their bills. I'm sorry to sound so cynical,

> but

> I'm devastated, and any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

>

> Thank you so much in advance,

> Linda

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

_____

Acesso Grátis - Instale o discador do agora.

http://br.acesso./ - Internet rápida e grátis

[Guest guest]

Hi Linda,

I'm sorry to hear of your experience. I think you have every right

to be frustrated. If you are not feeling well, only you can know

that, no one else. How can someone sit there and tell you how you

are feeling? It's absurd. Don't buy into that bull.

I'm just curious, where is this place you get treatment? I don't

think you base your judgement of Chinese medicine on one healing

center.

I am studying Chinese medicine in China, and my mentor actually helps

people. I mean, these people are getting better, not just in the

doctor's eyes. They literally see improvement week after week, and

this is with Chinese herbal medicine only.

I suggest you continue to look for the right doctor, and do not give

up. Your problem can be helped by TCM.

 

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine , " keats65 " <keats65> wrote:

>

>

> I'd like to ask a question regarding TCM when used for emotional

> problems like depression, sadness, anxiety, and hopelessness.

> I've

> been in treatment for eight months, and wrote in a while back

asking

> if you thought it was time for me to change doctors, as I hadn't

> experienced improvement after six months. My diagnosis was spleen

> and kidney qi deficiency with phlegm.

>

> Right after Christmas, a substitute doctor I saw once didn't even

> want to renew the powdered herb formula I was on, as after

examining

> me, she didn't feel it was strong enough. When my regular doctor

> came back he changed the formula, and tells me it now includes

> three " heavily sedating herbs, " as well as something for

> " energy, "

> (although you can't prove either by me) and something for phlegm.

>

>

> I'm feeling as bad as ever, but he's saying he sees

> " subtle

> improvement, " and tells me how " terrible " I looked when I

> first

> started treatment, and what " a mouse " I was when I first

> walked in,

> and am now, apparently looking less mouse-like to his eye. I think

> I was just feeling uncomfortable and nervous in a very strange

> environment, which obviously isn't so strange after eight months.

>

> He also said he can tell by my eyes and skin (which he says has

> " a

> sheen " ) that I have more qi. None of this matters much to me as

> I

> still feel terrible.

>

> I have stressed over and over (with tears pouring down my face)

that

> I am there for emotional help with depression, fears, and

> hopelessness, and I have been trusting that he is giving me

> appropriate treatments for those symptoms. Even if there are

> external improvements, (and I'm not convinced of it) I'm

> heartbroken

> to think they may not even have been giving me the right treatment

> for my specific complaints. I've also been taking calcium for my

> bones, and my nails are certainly better, but that external sign

has

> no bearing on my emotional state, and I don't take calcium as a

> way

> to feel better psychologically. The external sign of my nails

> getting stronger is irrelevant, and has no bearing on an

improvement

> in my emotional state, but externally there is a change.

>

> Is this even a relevant comparison? I'm just wondering if

> he's

> grasping at straws, trying to convince me to stay in treatment even

> though it hasn't helped, by pointing out external, (and my mind

> irrelevant) " signs, " stressing that they are so

> " subtle " I may not

> even notice them myself. After eight months of herbs taken three

> times a day, accompanied by acupuncture treatments at first weekly,

> now every other week, I would expect more than " subtle "

> external

> signs, that are supposed to be encouraging, when my emotional

> suffering remains unchanged.

>

> So that's my question. Are those signs irrelevant? Do external

> signs turn up before there's any internal (read emotional)

> improvement? For eight months of treatment, is a sheen in our

skin,

> and more qi in your eyes all that someone suffering emotionally can

> realistically expect, or am I total idiot to have continued this

> long? It seems more instinctive to expect internal changes to

happen

> first, finally working their way out, and manifesting in changes in

> your appearance. Have you heard of physical changes occurring

first,

> followed later by the desired emotional improvement?

>

> I'm very upset and disappointed in my treatment, and need to know

> from experts when to throw in the towel with TCM, and when to hang

> on for a little longer. I may be one of those people who can't

> be

> helped by TCM, and I'm not looking to blame anyone. I can't

> trust

> the doctors at the clinic (I've seen four over eight months), as

> despite the high sounding talk in their brochure on " Taoist

> ethics, "

> they obviously are in a money making business, and make more money

> the longer they encourage you to keep coming, and it's doubtful

> they

> would ever tell anyone the truth about when to say when, as long as

> you continue to pay their bills. I'm sorry to sound so cynical,

> but

> I'm devastated, and any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

>

> Thank you so much in advance,

> Linda