kidney and spleen qi deficiency with phelgm

[Guest guest]

May I please ask a question regarding the diagnosis and treatment of

kidney and spleen qi deficiency with phlegm?

 

I've been receiving treatment for seven months, both acupuncture and

herbs. I was going weekly for the first three months, and taking

paten medicine. Wen Dan Tang helped a bit over the summer.). Now

I'm

going every other week, and taking powdered herbs that are supposed

to be more specific to my condition. The problem is I'm feeling

MUCH worse, much more depressed and hopeless. I even cry in front

of the doctor when he takes my pulse. I thought at first this might

be part of the process in which you feel worse before you feel

better, maybe things inside breaking up or moving around. He's

never

heard of this being the case, and that frightens me. I know you

have to be patient with long-term problems especially dampness and

phlegm, but I would think more patience is called for when you

aren't improving. I'm very upset to be chided for lack of

patience

when I'm getting so much worse that other people are commenting

on

it.

 

In the meantime, he gets paid the same amount whether I improve or

continue suffering, so it's in his best financial interest to

keep

me coming back for more. What do you think? Is more patience still

the case, or is there something wrong with the treatment I'm

receiving? When I start describing things and a doctor who's

supposed to specialize in TCM and psychiatry has never heard of it,

I get very worried. Is getting worse before you get better a part

of the process seven months into treatment, or is TCM just not for

me? Any input would be appreciated.

 

Thanks so much!

 

Linda

[Guest guest]

Linda, it's time for a consultation with a new TCM healer. You

should not be feeling this way.

 

What was your original reason for seeing the acupuncturist?

 

Had you had a viral infection prior to seeing the TCM healer.

Specifically, have you had mononucleosis (glandular fever), and if

so, when?

 

Is there any history of thyroid problems.

 

What is your appetite like? Do you consume foods high in omega-3

essential fatty acids (cold water fish, flax products, etc.) or take

omega-3 summplements?

 

Which bothers you more, heat or cold or equal or neither? Is there

a season of the year when you tend to do better healthwise, and one

when you tend to do worse? Are you in the northern or the southern

hemisphere? (What season of the year is it where you are? I would

assume it's cold where you live since you made mention of " over the

summer " , but TCM healers need to make sure. There are list members

from all over the world.) What is the weather like where you are

living?

 

Phlegm can be tricky to treat. Not every TCM healer is an expert on

Phlegm, and there can be some finer points to treating it.

 

What are the powdered herbs you're on?

 

What physical symptoms were you experiencing before you went to see

him, and have any of those been helped?

 

Other readers probably will have other questions.

 

Looking forward to hearing from you.

 

Victoria

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine , " keats65 " <keats65>

wrote:

>

>

> May I please ask a question regarding the diagnosis and treatment

of

> kidney and spleen qi deficiency with phlegm?

>

> I've been receiving treatment for seven months, both acupuncture

and

> herbs. I was going weekly for the first three months, and taking

> paten medicine. Wen Dan Tang helped a bit over the summer.). Now

> I'm

> going every other week, and taking powdered herbs that are

supposed

> to be more specific to my condition. The problem is I'm feeling

> MUCH worse, much more depressed and hopeless. I even cry in front

> of the doctor when he takes my pulse. I thought at first this

might

> be part of the process in which you feel worse before you feel

> better, maybe things inside breaking up or moving around. He's

> never

> heard of this being the case, and that frightens me. I know you

> have to be patient with long-term problems especially dampness and

> phlegm, but I would think more patience is called for when you

> aren't improving. I'm very upset to be chided for lack of

> patience

> when I'm getting so much worse that other people are commenting

> on

> it.

>

> In the meantime, he gets paid the same amount whether I improve or

> continue suffering, so it's in his best financial interest to

> keep

> me coming back for more. What do you think? Is more patience

still

> the case, or is there something wrong with the treatment I'm

> receiving? When I start describing things and a doctor who's

> supposed to specialize in TCM and psychiatry has never heard of

it,

> I get very worried. Is getting worse before you get better a part

> of the process seven months into treatment, or is TCM just not for

> me? Any input would be appreciated.

>

> Thanks so much!

>

> Linda

[Guest guest]

Dear Victoria,

 

Thanks so much for your very kind interest. I hope it's not

inappropriate to post personal questions like this in this forum,

but I see the TCM doctor this week, and am desperate for a second

opinion, or at least some input before deciding to continue.

 

I live in Los Angeles, so we're in winter, but with warmer

temperatures between 65-75. I have about the same sensitivity to

heat and cold, but reactive extremely to light, sunlight, artificial

light, anything bright. I pull the drapes, close the blinds, and to

me, sunbathing would be the height of torture. I have real

sensitivity, almost pain to bright light. It seems like that should

be an important symptom, but his doctor hasn't made much of it.

You

asked about mono which is interesting because he also has never

questioned that, and yes, I had mono 2 or 3 times as a teenager, but

that was 25 years ago. Does this sound somehow related to past

viral problems? I do take an omega-3 (fish oil) supplement, and

have no known thyroid problems.

 

I began treatment in May for depression and anxiety, and feel so

much worse, right now I don't think I can continue. I'm not

sure

what herbs are in the powder, but last month he said he would add

something to the mix for energy, and I could barely crawl. A month

ago he said he would add something to raise my spirit, and as I

mentioned, I don't think I can go much lower. I know the powder

is

a mixture of herbs to treat the dampness and phlegm, and the related

emotional components, as are the acupuncture treatments.

 

I've learned a lot from this wonderful list, but right now I feel

completely hopeless that treatment of this nature can work. He said

he could tell form my pulse that I have a weak will to live and a

lot of stress, so maybe he does know and is doing his best. May I

ask how long before someone with long-term chronic conditions

(especially involving dampness) should expect some improvement, and

is it ever part of the process to get worse first. Also, if I

decide to discontinue treatment, is there any withdrawal from herbs

that I should be wary might occur?

 

Thanks again so much for your questions and help!

 

Linda

[Guest guest]

> I hope it's not

> inappropriate to post personal questions like this in this forum,

> but I see the TCM doctor this week, and am desperate for a second

> opinion, or at least some input before deciding to continue.

 

Part of what we do on here is to offer different perspectives on

real life situations. No one can diagnose via email, but different

people can spot different things for the person to consider and

research further.

>

> I live in Los Angeles, so we're in winter, but with warmer

> temperatures between 65-75. I have about the same sensitivity to

> heat and cold, but reactive extremely to light, sunlight,

artificial

> light, anything bright. I pull the drapes, close the blinds, and

to

> me, sunbathing would be the height of torture. I have real

> sensitivity, almost pain to bright light.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but LA gets a lot of sun. So does southern

Arizona - which is the next state over from California. (I'm

mentioning this for the people in other parts of the world who

aren't familiar with the southwest section of the US.) I know a

woman who used to live in southern AZ. Light bothered her. She hated

to go out for anything, and kept the blinds and drapes closed. For

some reason she tended to get depressed in the winter. Eventually

she moved to the eastern part of the US to a more northern latitude.

It's an area of the country that gets considerably more cloud cover

and rain than southern AZ gets. Instead of staying inside all the

time with blinds and curtains drawn, she's out and about a lot of

time, having a fine time. As far as I know, she has had no problems

with depression since moving.

 

> It seems like that should

> be an important symptom, but his doctor hasn't made much of it.

 

It is a key symptom. He may not realize what it means from either a

TCM or a Western allopathic standpoint.

 

I believe (doing this from memory), it's the ultra violet spectrum

of light which can cause capillaries in susceptible people to spasm

and narrow, thus interfering with circulation. From a TCM

standpoint, this can be Blood Stasis.

 

> You

> asked about mono which is interesting because he also has never

> questioned that, and yes, I had mono 2 or 3 times as a teenager,

but

> that was 25 years ago. Does this sound somehow related to past

> viral problems? I do take an omega-3 (fish oil) supplement, and

> have no known thyroid problems.

 

You may want to read up on the symptoms of both mononucleosis and

hypothyroidism. If either sound like a possibility, check with your

MD or DO. I don't know about a thyroid test, but a monospot test is

very cheap. A few dollars. (Other countries use other tests, and I'm

not sure how much they run.) Personally, I think that any time a

person complains of fatigue, the person should be tested for mono.

It's possible to have mono at any age, and to have it more than one

time.

 

Why did I ask about mono? It's not just the lack of energy but the

depression. One of the symptoms of mono - especially when it has

gone on for some time and is severe is depression. The depression is

coming from increased cytokline production to fight the infection.

The viral-caused depression can come from several severe viral

infections (which result in increased cytokline production), but

Epstein Barr Virus (leading cause of mono) and cytomegalovirus (CMV -

second leading cause of mono) - are especially known for this

depression.

 

This viral-caused depression is protective in nature. It's meant to

get the person off her or his feet and resting. Which is one of the

most important things one can do to fight mono. A viral-infection

will not respond to antidepressants or to talk therapy. The way to

get rid of it is to treat the infection.

 

This is a little known fact about some cases of mono - especially

chronic or recurring mono - but the lower the person's body

temperature goes, the sicker the person becomes. TCM students on the

list may want to read up on the 6 Stages of Cold Induced Illnesses.

The first 3 stages - the Yang stages - are characterized by fever or

mixed chills and fever. The last three stages - the Yin stages - are

more serious than the first three and are characterized by being too

cold. The Yin stages can be reached because the person receives no

proper treatment. It's a natural progression. Or, the Yin stages

can be reached because treatment of the Yang stages was too vigorous

and cooled the person too much. (Herbs and foods have thermal

energy. Some will cool the body (Cold or Cool energy), some are

heating (Hot or Warm thermal energy), and some are neutral.

Prescription drugs also have thermal energy. For example,

antibiotics are Cold. BTW, the Chinese will only prescribe

antibiotics when there is Excess Heat present because of this Cold

thermal energy property of antibiotics.

 

Another reason I asked about viral infections and mono in particular

is because of the formula that you were on last summer which you

said helped some. Wen Dan Tang is Warm the Gall Bladder Tea. It's

listed in the section of the Chinese Materia Medica on " Formulas

That Clear Heat and Transform Phlegm " . There are a lot of reasons

why a healer would prescribe Wen Dan Tang. (Tang means decoction or

tea.) One of the most common ones is when certain symptoms

(insomnia, sputum, a bitter taste in the mouth, irritability,

depression, and loss of appetite after a prolonged and serious

illness. (But if there is Heat in the Stomach, the appetite may be

excessive.)

 

Determining if a person is too Hot or too Cold is not always an easy

thing to do. Sometimes it will be very obvious - a standout. But

sometimes it's not very clear-cut. There is a condition called False

Heat- True Cold, and one called False Cold - True Heat.

 

Some of my questions were geared to identifying some of the more

common causes of depression. Virus, hypothyroid, omega-3

deficiency, and SAD (Seasonal Affective Disorder - a depression

caused by lack of light - which was the reason for the season

question). Note: In some rare cases too much omega-3 can cause

depression, but omega-3 deficiency is more likely to cause

depression than too much. Still it does happen sometimes.

 

> mentioned, I don't think I can go much lower. I know the powder

> is

> a mixture of herbs to treat the dampness and phlegm, and the

related

> emotional components, as are the acupuncture treatments.

 

Phlegm can result in certain psychological and emotional symptoms.

Phlegm doesn't always manifest this way, but it can. And it's not

the only imbalance that can manifest as depression and other

psychological problems.

 

Also, treating Phlegm can be tricky. Phlegm loves to team up with

various " Pernicious Evils " (Heat, Cold, Dampness, Wind, and

Dryness). Different types of Phlegm require different treatments.

For example, the usual herbs to attack Phlegm can be useless or even

harmful in the case of Cold Phlegm. The emphasis has to be on

clearing up the Cold problems.

 

> I've learned a lot from this wonderful list, but right now I feel

> completely hopeless that treatment of this nature can work. He

said

> he could tell form my pulse that I have a weak will to live and a

> lot of stress, so maybe he does know and is doing his best.

 

Anyone who comes on a public message group and asks for help HAS a

will to live. As far as I know, a will to live cannot be told from a

pulse. What can be told is information about the will in general.

This is will in connection with decision making and sticking to a

decision.

 

Gall Bladder Deficiency can result in difficulty making decisions

and sticking to them. Sometimes the Gall Bladder pulse will be weak

or cannot be felt in people who have had their gall bladders removed.

 

> May I

> ask how long before someone with long-term chronic conditions

> (especially involving dampness) should expect some improvement,

and

> is it ever part of the process to get worse first.

 

You should have already improved. What should have happened is

continous improvement, dramatic at times, slow but steady at others.

 

As far as I know, this is not one of those cases where one feels

worse before feeling better. Like occurs in yeast die off in yeast

infections. Yeast infections can have an underlying Dampness

imbalance, but as long as you've been treated, if you had a yeast

infection, the die-off should have happened some time ago and be

complete by now. Also, depression can be a symptom of yeast

infection.

 

> Also, if I

> decide to discontinue treatment, is there any withdrawal from

herbs

> that I should be wary might occur?

 

It would help if you knew which herbs you're on. Right off hand I

can't think of any, but that doesn't mean there aren't. Hopefully

some of the other list members know more about this.

 

I do recommend a second opionion. I strongly recommend it.

[Guest guest]

I would suspect the herbs are not doing positive things for you.

Sometimes many kinds of herbs boost estrogen which can push you into

an emotional state. Do you think it is related to that? Are you estrogen

dominant? I was on a ginseng formula which seemed to make my gut

more constipated. And my acupuncture treatment was to aid in my gut

function as well. When I mentioned this the doctor shook his head and

said he didn't feel it was the herbs. Actually this was a herbal formula

of three herbs.

 

So I don't think these doctors know all. It is up to you to get an

understanding

on what might be upsetting things for you now. Do some research on the

herbs you are taking, and also look to see if any of the interfere with your

hormone levels.

 

This is just my guess, I don't practice any kind of health care.

Liz D.

 

 

-

keats65

Chinese Traditional Medicine

12/13/2004 11:22:17 AM

[Chinese Traditional Medicine] kidney and spleen qi deficiency with phelgm

 

 

 

 

May I please ask a question regarding the diagnosis and treatment of

kidney and spleen qi deficiency with phlegm?

 

I've been receiving treatment for seven months, both acupuncture and

herbs. I was going weekly for the first three months, and taking

paten medicine. Wen Dan Tang helped a bit over the summer.). Now

I'm

going every other week, and taking powdered herbs that are supposed

to be more specific to my condition. The problem is I'm feeling

MUCH worse, much more depressed and hopeless. I even cry in front

of the doctor when he takes my pulse. I thought at first this might

be part of the process in which you feel worse before you feel

better, maybe things inside breaking up or moving around. He's

never

 

Linda

 

 

[Guest guest]

I concur with Victoria that it might be time to change practioners.

 

Linda has described her symptoms very well and it is clear that this

case needs an experienced person to manage it. The practtioner she

has is not only not helping to releave the symptoms they are making

the picture worse. There are many levels of healing progression and

some of these stages are not necessarily comfortable - but these

stages as they appear should each and every one be treated and the

patient should get relief from sideeffects as rapidly as possible.

The manner that this practioner seems to be using in managing this

case is the opposite of good medical practice - a practioner can not

lock into theraputic protocals and deny the individual patient - in

that case the practioner is not treating the patient they are

treating the disease - a treatment that does not improve the patients

condition is not a treatment at all. This always means either wrong

diagnosis or wrong therapy. Any practioner that blames the patient

for failure to improve is not the type of practioner that will be

able to help the patient. Also any true paractioner knows all of the

potential sideefeects of therapy and the healing process in general.

As healing crisis's arise they should be treated appropratitly.

I concur with Victoria that it might be time to change practitioners.

 

Linda has described her symptoms very well and it is clear that this

case needs an experienced person to manage it. The practitioner she

has is not only not helping to relieve the symptoms they are making

the picture worse. There are many levels of healing progression and

some of these stages are not necessarily comfortable - but these

stages as they appear should each and every one be treated and the

patient should get relief from side-effects as rapidly as possible.

The approach that this practitioner seems to be using in managing

this case is the opposite of good medical practice - a practitioner

can not lock into therapeutic protocols and deny the individual

patient - in that case the practitioner is not treating the patient

they are treating the disease - a treatment that does not improve the

patients condition is not a treatment at all. This always means

either wrong diagnosis or wrong therapy. Any practitioner that blames

the patient for failure to improve is not the type of practitioner

that will be able to help the patient. Also any true practitioner

knows all of the potential side-effects of therapy and the healing

process in general. As healing crisis's arise they should be treated

appropriatly.

 

The symptom picture that Linda describes is much more complicated

than simple phlegm. This most probably involves metabolic disorder of

some sort. Because of this Victoria's suggestion about thyroid is a

very good one and is where I would start in analyzing the case. It is

not necessary to have a thyroid test to determine this (also thyroid

tests do not detect one of the most common thyroid disorders –

reverse T3 syndrome). Best way to determine thyroid function is to

take a basal temperature. For 3 consecutive days take your

temperature before rising – also take your temperature around noon

and around 4pm. If your temp averages in the low 97's or below in the

morning this is hypothyroid – if the daytime temps average below 98.2

this is also hypometabolism. Widely fluctuating temps by definintion

indicate some malfunction in T3. Temps averaging below 97.7 are

debilitating and cause many deficiency symptoms coming from every

organ system of the body – this is what is referred to when saying

someone is hypometabolic. Many people with a host of unusual symptoms

that cannot be easily explained are often suffering from reduced

metabolism – meaning every cell of the body is underfunctioning. Many

diseases that are diagnosed as psychological are actually simple

hypometabolism and the symptoms melt away as the temps and the pulse

improve. Many diseases that have many hypersensitivity's and

extraordinary symptoms are metabolic diseases with multiple hormonal

involvement's. Such disorders as Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Syndrome

X, Fibromyalgia, chronic infections (disbiosis, candida, etc.),

autoimmunity disorders, autonomic nervous system imbalances, etc.

have metabolic disorders as their basis. The resolution of these

multi hormonal issues will take time, patience, and a good

practitioner to achieve.