Second Guessing Did not come from Cat's email read this 1st

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/9/04 9:18:42 AM Eastern Standard Time,

victoria_dragon writes:

 

> This is not the impression I got in Cat's case at all. I got the

> impression of someone who is fascinated by TCM, who has seen it work

> very well in her life, and who wants to learn all she can about the

> subject.

 

I am so sorry I quoted her name in the first email. This is not the direction

I was going and explained in my second email at 2am. My question is more

pervasive and is actually a response to about 5 people over the last year. I did

not desire to pull out the old emails.

 

Victoria, I wrote you at that time and you told me to post my concerns but I

felt that it would be better to remain silent. I was investigating if it was

just an ego layer on my part or if the person was really endangering themselves

with what they were doing. My intuition said to just listen, wait, and

assimilate.

 

The when Cat said she did not wish to offend it brought about the other side

of the equation.

 

Many times patients are too intimidated to ask questions or those who don't

ask the caregiver the information but seek outside help. (In this case even I

find it hard to talk to some western doctors who spend 3-5 minutes with you

after you waited 2 hours or more in their waiting room.) I had been in the

alternative field so long I forgot that the person who takes your blood pressure

is

the intake evaluation and that is your shot at asking the questions and

getting your concerns heard)

 

My question was more of a desire to know what motivates the person to seek

other information. I knew I wasn't getting my thoughts out clearly as I said in

my first post. I was having difficulty in forming the question so as not to

" offend " anyone but to truly learn the motivation behind it.

 

Offlist I am dealing with a patient who is very much involved with medical

intuitive's and astrologers and psychics of which I have a great respect for. I

rely on my intuition and guidance. However she consults the above on every

move and suggestion I make. They keep telling her I am on the right track and to

follow my advice and then she consults another one with the same questions.

She is grasping at every person she can who will say take this vitamin, this

oil, this product or that and she has bought them all.

 

Her x-rays and other westerns tests have come back that she has lung cancer.

All of her spiritual advisors say she does not have it in her matrix or chart

that she has cancer. However she has consulted 11 different consultants in the

last 9 days since getting the diagnosis. Many of these same people said she

did not have breast cancer in the early 90's so she did not treat it for 5

years. She stopped the chemo and radiation to find alternative solutions and

then

stopped those because the psychic said she didn't really have cancer to begin

with and she found the treatment to be painful. as a result she has had

outward manifestations of symptoms that have prevented her from standing upright

or

breathing well for three years. Now four years after the lumpectomy she has

the new diagnosis of lung cancer which she denies again.

 

This got me thinking as to what motivates people. I am choosing not to go

into the direction of passing her quest off as denial or fear on her part

although that may be a factor. I won't learn anything if I assume that is what

the

motivation is.

 

There is a thread as I mentioned above that I have seen on this list over the

last couple of years. My quest goes beyond my patients quest or Cat's thirst

for knowledge but on the larger picture.

 

If I can understand this quest for knowledge that in past posts (NOT Cat's

post) where it was implied or even stated " Is my practitioner giving me the

correct treatment " that spawned this curiosity I have. My intuition which I use

a

lot in my practice tells me that learning the answer to this question will

open up a whole new avenue for helping some of my patients find the power to

heal

themselves.

 

In my opinion:

All healing is self healing. There is no psychic, shaman, doctor, healer or

any modality outside of oneself that can heal the self. My goal as a physician

is to nudge the person's vital force into returning to homeostasis (balance)

thus healing itself. I might do that with homeopathy, herbs, acupuncture,

prayer, color and sound therapy, etc., but the end result lies with the person

receiving the treatment. It has to filter through all of their wisdom, fears,

hopes, ego and inner spirit and knowingness to result in the level of

homeostasis

that they achieve.

It also has to filter through the physician's wisdom, fears, hopes, ego and

inner spirit and knowingness.

It is vital to ask as many questions as possible and be as informed as one

can be. That is not the nature of my inquiry.

 

Again the motivation to keep seeking outside help if one has paid someone for

their wisdom.

 

If one does not trust what was given then by all means change physicians. If

the physician does not listen or answer questions move on. As it was said by V

 

Offend the every chance you get its your health and life that's on the line

not his. Nothing happens to them when they make a mistake, especially if you

signed any kind of contract.

V

 

That is why I am grateful that this list exists.

 

In curiosity,

 

Sunny

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

> Again the motivation to keep seeking outside help if one has paid someone

for

> their wisdom.

>

> If one does not trust what was given then by all means change physicians.

If

> the physician does not listen or answer questions move on. As it was said

by V

 

For my part it is a lack of trust issue, with good reason sometimes

unfortunately. The sad fact is that even polite questioning to gain

understanding can be viewed by so many practioners as an 'offensive' display

of practioner-doubt, that it makes it very difficult not to sour a

relationship that MAY turn out to be reliable and beneficial - so it is less

risky to check up elsewhere, or confirm for yourself, IMO.

 

Jackie

[Guest guest]

At 09:07 AM 1/9/2004, you wrote:

>For my part it is a lack of trust issue, with good reason sometimes

>unfortunately

 

Hi Jackie,

I was wondering this too..... because a " good " TCM practitioner would work

on establishing a healthy EARTH, and the trust and suspicion would

evaporate. It's a little scary how much control a really good

acupuncturist could have with a patient. Again, I think this goes back to

the clients revealing new information to their practitioner, and the

practitioner learning beyond their training or experience.

 

I'd like to say that this isn't really about being a good practitioner, but

about the right one for the client. I'll give another example. I have 5

children, and I thought I was a pretty good mother when the first two came

along, and obviously they survived even my worst mistakes, thankfully. And

now, with the 2 year old, I consider myself a MASTER mother. But even

then, each child adds to my experience as a mother and our relationship

continue to unfold.

 

I've gone through various cycles in my client load, where I've had a LOT of

clients, and then, like now, I'm only working with less than usual. As a

practitioner working with energy, there are some things that just don't go

by the numbers and do require some intuitive work. To do this, the

practitioner has to be clear. Imagine a doctor with a heavy case load,

just wandering in and out of treatment rooms barking out orders. No wonder

there's no exchange of energy happening with that doctor. The

client/patient has a sense of this, and when it comes to healing, that

sense must not be ignored.

 

Personally, my effectiveness is much better after a few sessions with a

client, rather than initially, in part because my work is so dynamic and

new. I'm teaching my clients to be their doctor, and to heal themselves,

coming up alongside them with key diagnostics, or even palliative support,

is all that I am really doing. Unfortunately, our medical paradigm requires

sick people to support it, so seeing more of a client is interpreted as

success, when traditional Chinese practitioners may feel more successful if

they see less of a client.

 

warmly,

Moe

 

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

" It's supposed to be a secret, but I'll tell you anyway.

We doctors do nothing. We only help and encourage the doctor within. "

Albert Schweitzer, M.D

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Guest guest]

> I'd like to say that this isn't really about being a good practitioner,

but

> about the right one for the client. >

 

I suppose I would agree, but in terms of understanding a clients condition

thoroughly enough to be able to help. In my opinion, the good practitioner

needs to know enough to know when he or she is 'out of their depth', and to

be able to face that honestly and with humility.

 

Jackie

[Guest guest]

> My question was more of a desire to know what motivates the person

to seek

> other information. I knew I wasn't getting my thoughts out clearly

as I said in

> my first post. I was having difficulty in forming the question so

as not to

> " offend " anyone but to truly learn the motivation behind it.

 

There is no one answer as to why a person seeks other information.

Some people automatically want a second opinion. This is not

something that can be given on a list.

 

What can be given on a list is more information about a condition so

the person is better educated about the condition and knows what to

research.

 

Some people just want assurances that this very strange and alien (to

them) TCM really does work. A list can provide that.

 

In some cases, people need information concerning if their healers

are doing something correct or not. In most cases they walk away

from a list like this knowing that their healers indeed are following

correct TCM protocols. In other cases they find that others share

their misgivings, and they get another healer. We've had a couple of

cases on here where what a person's healer was saying and doing as

well as the way the healer was coming across raised alarm bells for

several people, and I assume the person did seek other help. Not

everyone in a healing profession is competent or even in it for the

right reasons.

 

Sometimes people need reassurance. Others are in search of

knowledge. A few hate being dependent in any way and want to learn

how to " wave the magic wand " for themselves.

 

Aside from the normal lack of trust in an unfamiliar situation, a few

people have major trust issues. This has nothing to do with the

healer, and everything to do with having been betrayed and not

supported at some point in their lives when they really needed help.

As a result, they don't trust anyone.

 

I'm sure others can add to this list.

 

But, from what you describe about your client, none of these seem to

fit. As I was reading your description, I remembered a woman who used

to throw the runes until she got the answer she wanted. She also

tended to go from person to person until she got the answer she

wanted. Reality was ignored - and never dealt with - in favor of

substituting pretense. Don't get me wrong. Sometimes pretending can

be a very helpful and even healing thing. Like in visualization or

meditation. Some people desperately need to take some " vacations "

from their current problems and gather strenght. In these cases they

notice that things in reality start to clear up for them. BUT, they

never deny they have problems and recognize that they are taking

healing vacations. Others want to make a permanent move out of

reality, and keep denying they have any problems whatsoever.

 

> Her x-rays and other westerns tests have come back that she has

lung cancer.

> All of her spiritual advisors say she does not have it in her

matrix or chart

> that she has cancer. However she has consulted 11 different

consultants in the

> last 9 days since getting the diagnosis. Many of these same people

said she

> did not have breast cancer in the early 90's so she did not treat

it for 5

> years. She stopped the chemo and radiation to find alternative

solutions and then

> stopped those because the psychic said she didn't really have

cancer to begin

> with and she found the treatment to be painful. as a result she has

had

> outward manifestations of symptoms that have prevented her from

standing upright or

> breathing well for three years. Now four years after the lumpectomy

she has

> the new diagnosis of lung cancer which she denies again.

 

One thing that psychics need to be aware of (but a lot aren't) is the

possibility of picking up not reality but what the person is

desperate to believe. Are they picking up what is happening or will

happen or what the person strongly wants to believe is and will

happen? Some people are so into denial that psychics will pick up the

denial the person is desperate to hold onto instead of the reality.

 

Sometimes Western medical tests are wrong or misinterpreted or

incomplete. I'm assuming that this is not one of those times.

 

Usually in terminal cases there are four basic responses. The person

gives up in hopelessness. These have the worst prognosis. Or, the

person adopts what I call the " storm the barricades or deny, deny,

deny! " approach. As though will alone will save them. The third is a

level-headed recognition that this is serious, I could die, but I

want to fight it and live. In this 3rd approach people will try a

lot of different things, but will engage in frequent reality checks.

If the promises of the treatments aren't showing up in reality -

either tests or the person feeling and functioning better - they are

jettisoned in favor of something which will work. The prognosis is

best in these cases.

 

Then there are the cases where the person really is ready to die.

Not dying earlier than they should or would because of not dealing

with hopelessness issues. Not discovering too late that will along is

not enough enough. (At least not when denial is confused with will.)

It really is time for them.

 

If you don't mind my asking, how well do you know this client and is

she a relative or friend? Or, does she remind you of someone who was

once a relative or friend? Did someone suffer needlessly in the past

because they did not listen to you, did not trust you? There are

trust issues with having once been severely betrayed or denied help

when one really needed it, but there also are trust issues that have

to do with one not having been listened to or even credited with

ability and knowing when one could have helped. Call it the

Cassandra syndrome after the woman in Greek mythology who had the

gift of prophecy and the curse of never being believed.

 

There are going to be people that one cannot help no matter what you

do or say or don't do or say. They will insist on walking, no

marching, right over the side of a cliff no matter how many people

shout out warnings or tell them they can change course and not have

to undergo a fall off a cliff. It's bad enough to have to watch a

stranger do this, but when the person is a relative or friend, it can

be even more gut-wrenching. (Voice of personal experience here.)

 

Some will raise the issue of what gives anyone the right to stop an

adult from marching off the side of a cliff. People do have a right

to march off the side of a cliff if they so desire, stay in denial,

etc. But that doesn't mean that watching them do this is easy. (And

they most definitely don't have the right to demand that others march

off the side of the cliff along with them.)

 

Some will raise the issue of how do you know what's best? Who died

and made you god? Aside from the fact that few people (probably

nobody who is in the least thoughtful and honest and willing to

agonize over what is the right thing to do)ever know they did the

right thing until after they've done it and the results have come in,

all people can do is the best they can based on the knowledge they

have at the time. And, experience does count for something. I mean

after you've seen so many people go over the side of a cliff, it's

fairly safe to conclude that the outcome will be that they lie

crushed and bleeding at the bottom. And, with experience one does

learn to recognize denial for what it is and not confuse it with the

person being aware of something you're not aware of. At least in the

most blatant cases of denial.

 

> In my opinion:

> All healing is self healing. There is no psychic, shaman, doctor,

healer or

> any modality outside of oneself that can heal the self. My goal as

a physician

> is to nudge the person's vital force into returning to homeostasis

(balance)

> thus healing itself. I might do that with homeopathy, herbs,

acupuncture,

> prayer, color and sound therapy, etc., but the end result lies with

the person

> receiving the treatment. It has to filter through all of their

wisdom, fears,

> hopes, ego and inner spirit and knowingness to result in the level

of homeostasis

> that they achieve.

> It also has to filter through the physician's wisdom, fears, hopes,

ego and

> inner spirit and knowingness.

> It is vital to ask as many questions as possible and be as informed

as one

> can be.

 

I agree.

 

I think it goes without saying that your client is very, very scared.

Is there Kidney imblance? Remember how not only will emotions impact

on particular Organ systems, once an imbalance has occured (from

whatever trigger) the person will be more prone to feeling the

particular emotion associated with that Organ. Also, is there Heart

imbalance? Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Heart

imbalance frequently coincide with denial?

 

Victoria

[Guest guest]

SacredQi888 wrote:

>In a message dated 1/9/04 9:18:42 AM Eastern Standard Time,

>victoria_dragon writes:

>

> > This is not the impression I got in Cat's case at all. I got the

> > impression of someone who is fascinated by TCM, who has seen it work

> > very well in her life, and who wants to learn all she can about the

> > subject.

>

>I am so sorry I quoted her name in the first email.

 

Not a problem at all. Everything gets cleared up through discussion.

This has all been very educational for me and I feel this is a great group

of people on the list. Glad I found you all. :-)

Cat

 

^. .^ ~