Second Guessing Professional Medical Advice

[Guest guest]

Please take this email out of the curiosity I feel so that I can learn as

well.

 

Cat said she does not wish to offend her practitioner as she desires to ask

more questions.

 

I have seen many posts from people who have access to Licensed Acupuncture

Physicians who have actually paid them for their time, knowledge and services.

They go to these educated practitioners who hopefully have done a physical exam

including pulse and tongue diagnosis. The practitioners get a detailed

evaluation form with past and current medical history and family history and

look at

the complexion and quality of voice and other features.

 

In Florida one must complete four years of training post 60 hours of general

college education.

 

After getting the diagnosis and treatment plan (which may or might not have

been fully explained) some come back to this list to verify from what is

largely a lay person trying to learn oriental medicine to second guess and say

that

their trained professional is giving them good advice.

 

The list is actually strangers who can't look through the ethers of Cybernet

to do a pulse and tongue diagnosis or look at the person as whole. A list of

the main complaints features such as when it came on cause what makes it better

or worse etc are often shared on this list in sketchy details. Many times a

western diagnosis was shared and then the OM treatment details given or one

says they gave me herbs and acupuncture.

 

There is a lot of good stuff on this list which is why I am still here. My

question is why do you feel you have to use this means to see if you have a good

acupuncturist or the correct treatment?

 

If you don't trust them or feel you can't communicate then write a list of

questions to be answered and go over it with the physician. If you can't ask

them questions find another physician or just come to this list for medical

advice.

Why pay someone for services and then seek the same advice from lay people?

 

I might not have phrased this the way I intend it which is to learn what

motivates patients to second guess our decisions. If I can learn this I will

hopefully be a better practitioner.

 

Sunny

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Offend the every chance you get its your health and life thats on the line

not his. nothnig happens to them when they make a mistake, especially if you

signed any kind of contract.

V

 

-

<SacredQi888

<Chinese Traditional Medicine >

Thursday, January 08, 2004 9:56 PM

[Chinese Traditional Medicine] Second Guessing Professional Medical Advice

 

 

> Please take this email out of the curiosity I feel so that I can learn as

> well.

>

> Cat said she does not wish to offend her practitioner as she desires to

ask

> more questions.

>

> I have seen many posts from people who have access to Licensed Acupuncture

> Physicians who have actually paid them for their time, knowledge and

services.

> They go to these educated practitioners who hopefully have done a physical

exam

> including pulse and tongue diagnosis. The practitioners get a detailed

> evaluation form with past and current medical history and family history

and look at

> the complexion and quality of voice and other features.

>

> In Florida one must complete four years of training post 60 hours of

general

> college education.

>

> After getting the diagnosis and treatment plan (which may or might not

have

> been fully explained) some come back to this list to verify from what is

> largely a lay person trying to learn oriental medicine to second guess and

say that

> their trained professional is giving them good advice.

>

> The list is actually strangers who can't look through the ethers of

Cybernet

> to do a pulse and tongue diagnosis or look at the person as whole. A list

of

> the main complaints features such as when it came on cause what makes it

better

> or worse etc are often shared on this list in sketchy details. Many times

a

> western diagnosis was shared and then the OM treatment details given or

one

> says they gave me herbs and acupuncture.

>

> There is a lot of good stuff on this list which is why I am still here. My

> question is why do you feel you have to use this means to see if you have

a good

> acupuncturist or the correct treatment?

>

> If you don't trust them or feel you can't communicate then write a list of

> questions to be answered and go over it with the physician. If you can't

ask

> them questions find another physician or just come to this list for

medical

> advice.

> Why pay someone for services and then seek the same advice from lay

people?

>

> I might not have phrased this the way I intend it which is to learn what

> motivates patients to second guess our decisions. If I can learn this I

will

> hopefully be a better practitioner.

>

> Sunny

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

SacredQi888 wrote:

>Cat said she does not wish to offend her practitioner as she desires to ask

>more questions.

 

There is so much information in the 3 emails under this thread heading I don't

even know where to start. It appears that this is all in response to something

I said. I have used this acupuncturist for 5 years on and off. I have had

excellent results with her and two other Chinese women trained in China (I have

had terrible results from other people I have used over the past 30 years and

quit after a few sessions when it was obvious to me that they had no idea of

what they were doing).

 

I joined this list to learn more about TCM, not question her or her treatment.

I did not at any time mean to imply that I do not trust her. This is all for

my *curiosity* about TCM, and I feel that I can do a lot of research on my own.

When I have exhausted some of that, and I still have questions which basically

are to satisfy my curiosity about TCM (and really does not have any impact upon

the treatment she picks for me) I will ask her.

 

As anyone who has looked into this already knows, the information is voluminous

and I do not feel that it is really within the scope of usual treatment for her

to give me the amount of information which I can learn on the internet. I did

not mean to imply that I am not assertive enough to ask her questions, and I do

when I have them. But the depth of theoretical stuff about TCM I don't feel I

can more than scratch the surface during the treatment sessions and thought it

would be helpful to get an overview from information available on the internet.

I hope that clears up any misunderstandings which my posts might have created.

 

Cheers, Cat

 

^. .^ ~

[Guest guest]

Hi,

As a practitioner myself, I'd like to address some of these issues as well,

in the context of the " times " we live in. This doesn't have so much to do

with the practitioner that Cat is using, or even us here on this list, as

it does with the direction that Cat's life is taking. As a medical

astrologer among other things, it was clear to me that the direction that

Cat is moving toward is not just mastery of her own physical condition, but

also as she makes and important transition from healed to healer. From the

last three hours that I spent looking at her charts and derivatives of it,

it's apparent that she is on the path of becoming a healer through the

healing of her own wounds.

 

This journey will require much more than a carte blanche acceptance of her

practitioner's judgements, which may be entirely accurate. That's not the

point, though. Cat's in a period of vital self discovery that's been her

entire life in the making. I'd rather not disclose the particulars of her

chart.

 

Also, there are many many more ways to look at the energetics of the human

system, not only visual, though I must admit that it's a handicap not to

have the pulse or appearance of the person to judge. I have developed a

very unique method of 5 element analysis, through the use of other

modalities that has become my staple, even though my training is in

homeopathy and sound therapy, I've found synthesis through the 5 elements

and and attempting to codify it at this time.

 

As for medical history, a good medical astrologer can suss out the details

quite quickly. In fact, you don't have to even be a good astrologer! LOL

 

As a practitioner, however, the dilemma becomes addressing the initial

complaints of the client. Because the practitioner usually is able to get

to underlying causes quite quickly, but those " causes " may be years in

resolution, and not because of ineffective practitioners or therapies, but

simply because it's not yet TIME. Some things are a matter of unfolding,

not a matter of curing. And any good doctor will tell you that not

treating is sometimes more effective treatment, as most dis-ease is

self-limiting!

 

Back to second guessing " professional " medical advice, I have to be quite

suspect at any practitioner that doesn't evaluate the position of Saturn in

both the chart of the client, and in the doctor's own chart. No one will

ever convince me that it doesn't matter what doctor cures what patient, as

the interchange of energy between doctor and patient is as important, as

the condition, imo. If the doctor's natal position of Saturn falls into

the 6th house of the client, there's really no use for the doctor in health

matters for that client, period. Why rack your brain where there's only

blockages?

 

So, this is why, it's important to follow the gut when it comes to anyone

who PRESUMES to offer lifegiving/saving/taking advice.

 

We're entering an age where people are going to be awakening in their role

of healer. As my good mentor Jim Buss elucidates, we've met the healer and

he's US! The age of the PROFESSIONAL healer is upon us, and it's going to

take very many nebulous forms, including the patient healing

themselves. Cat's questions are every bit a part of this important

awakening and healing process. I'd love to say more about her placement of

Saturn with regards to her emotions and gut feelings and why for her,

especially, it's important to follow what's already inside her and is

unfolding.

 

As they say, there are no mistakes and everything is exactly as it should

be, let's embrace it as good and needful. I say that there IS a need to

trip up egos of professionals, who ignore the awakening process,

particularly as we enter this " next age " of healing.

 

because love is what we are becoming,

Moe

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

At 09:56 PM 1/8/2004, you wrote:

>Please take this email out of the curiosity I feel so that I can learn as

>well.

>

>Cat said she does not wish to offend her practitioner as she desires to ask

>more questions.

>

>I have seen many posts from people who have access to Licensed Acupuncture

>Physicians who have actually paid them for their time, knowledge and

>services.

>They go to these educated practitioners who hopefully have done a physical

>exam

>including pulse and tongue diagnosis. The practitioners get a detailed

>evaluation form with past and current medical history and family history

>and look at

>the complexion and quality of voice and other features.

>

>In Florida one must complete four years of training post 60 hours of general

>college education.

>

>After getting the diagnosis and treatment plan (which may or might not have

>been fully explained) some come back to this list to verify from what is

>largely a lay person trying to learn oriental medicine to second guess and

>say that

>their trained professional is giving them good advice.

>

>The list is actually strangers who can't look through the ethers of Cybernet

>to do a pulse and tongue diagnosis or look at the person as whole. A list of

>the main complaints features such as when it came on cause what makes it

>better

>or worse etc are often shared on this list in sketchy details. Many times a

>western diagnosis was shared and then the OM treatment details given or one

>says they gave me herbs and acupuncture.

>

>There is a lot of good stuff on this list which is why I am still here. My

>question is why do you feel you have to use this means to see if you have

>a good

>acupuncturist or the correct treatment?

>

>If you don't trust them or feel you can't communicate then write a list of

>questions to be answered and go over it with the physician. If you can't ask

>them questions find another physician or just come to this list for medical

>advice.

>Why pay someone for services and then seek the same advice from lay people?

>

>I might not have phrased this the way I intend it which is to learn what

>motivates patients to second guess our decisions. If I can learn this I will

>hopefully be a better practitioner.

>

>Sunny

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> There is a lot of good stuff on this list which is why I am still

here. My

> question is why do you feel you have to use this means to see if

you have a good

> acupuncturist or the correct treatment?

 

This is not the impression I got in Cat's case at all. I got the

impression of someone who is fascinated by TCM, who has seen it work

very well in her life, and who wants to learn all she can about the

subject. Hers are the type of questions asked by people who may very

well end up working in the field of TCM in some capacity. If not

actually a healer or acupunctulist or massage therapist or TCM

dietician, etc., someone who writes about the subject or is involved

with TCM or alternative healing in some other way.

 

Think of someone holding an object in her hands who turns the object

over and over, examining it from every possible angle in order to

understand it thoroughly. These are the type of questions Cat (and

others) have asked.

 

In some cases people do come on the list for reassurance that not

only are their healers doing the correct thing but that TCM does

indeed work. And this is OK by me. One thing that motivated my

setting up this list was the realization that people who have some

familiarity with TCM are more likely to consult a TCM healer.

 

I originally set up Chinese Traditional Medicine so that friends and relatives in

other parts of the country could learn about TCM. That was the

original purpose of the group. In time not only did other people who

wished to learn about TCM joined, TCM students and professionals

began to join. The list began not only to be a place where students

could review and learn more but professionals could share

information. And I'm very glad of this. It's been a win-win-win

situation for all involved.

 

I want to remind readers that I am not a professional TCM healer. I'm

a person who had some very severe health problems who got a lot of

healing from TCM, and who decided that others needed access to

information about TCM. As I've said before on here, one of the things

that impressed me the most - in addition to the big improvement in 3

weeks after starting on the herbs - was the fact that so many of the

symptoms I had which had puzzled Western allopathic doctors were

spelled out in TCM. It was like, " Oh, that's just Kidney Yang

Deficiency. It's been known about for centuries. No big deal. And

here's how it's corrected. " The corrections worked, and worked well!

I also was very impressed by the fact that had I known TCM basics, I

could have gotten things from the local supermarket that would have

helped and alleviated some of my suffering.

 

I'm a person who is by nature and by training an engineer (Biological

Agricultural Engineering). See the problem, analyze the problem,

solve the problem - or at least improve things. I'm also a published

writer. In addition, I once taught in the Continuing Ed department

of a community college. I have a talent for explaining medical,

technical, and scientific information to people who do not have

backgrounds in those areas. That's my major contribution. I also have

talents for recognizing talent in others and for bringing people with

other talents together. And I know how people learn, and often

recognize what needs to be stressed and repeated. I know how to lay a

foundation. A very strong, stable foundation.(grin)

 

I do NOT have clinical experience as a healer - aside from my own

health problems. This list would be a lot less than it is without

the professionals and students who do have this knowledge and

understanding. It also would be less without those new to TCM asking

questions.

 

When I taught at a community college, at the end of every quarter,

the students got to grade the instructors. I'll admit to having very

mixed feelings about this. I mean I'm the one who went to school to

learn all that stuff! But, I also realized that those reports could

be very, very helpful to me. I began to learn how to be an even more

effective teacher than I had been. Often it involved no more than

wording something a little differently or explaining the first night

exactly what students would and would not get from the course.

 

I was very fortunate in that the TCM herbalist I saw was more than

happy to answer all my questions. And, there was no language barrier

in our case. But, as willing as he was to answer my many questions,

there was no way he could have answered everything I wanted to ask.

Time simply would not allow it. Fortunately, he also sold TCM books

that were geared to a wide range of depth. I remember that he seemed

quite pleased by the books I chose, passing up the more simple ones

for the more meaty ones. In time I moved beyond that and began to

order TCM books like Maciocia's through the local library. If the

books were good - like Marciocia's are - I would buy my own copy.

Eventually I set up this list. I would have loved to have had a

place like this list back when I was first beginning to learn. A

place where I could have asked questions of a lot of different

people. You would have heard the same questions from me that you hear

from Cat and others.

 

I also want to mention that Cat has so much respect for her

acupunturist that she fears the possibility of alienating her in any

way and no longer being able to get that help. There also is a

language barrier in this case, and it can be very frustrating for

both parties struggling to make themselves understood to each other.

Especially when it comes to technical information.

 

The clients who ask questions and learn all they can - not only from

the healer but also on their own - usually have the best prognosis

when it comes to their healings.

 

Victoria

[Guest guest]

>it was clear to me that the direction that

> Cat is moving toward is not just mastery of her own physical

condition, but

> also as she makes and important transition from healed to healer.

 

I got that impression too from the nature of her questions. She's

moving toward being a healer. It may or may not be an herbalist or

acupuncturist, but she very well may end up playing some kind of role

in helping others to heal.

 

> As a practitioner, however, the dilemma becomes addressing the

initial

> complaints of the client. Because the practitioner usually is able

to get

> to underlying causes quite quickly, but those " causes " may be years

in

> resolution, and not because of ineffective practitioners or

therapies, but

> simply because it's not yet TIME. Some things are a matter of

unfolding,

> not a matter of curing. And any good doctor will tell you that not

> treating is sometimes more effective treatment, as most dis-ease is

> self-limiting!

 

One of the first things I learned in TCM is that the longer the

problem has been going on, the longer it takes for it to reverse.

Often, herbs take longer to work than prescription drugs, but they

end up working far better than the drugs can. Sometimes people just

want reassurance that everything is proceding as it should.

 

And, as you point out, sometimes it's a matter of something

unfolding. I remember when I started on magnesium shots. I couldn't

take the full dose at first. I described it as being like putting

super octane gas in an old clunker which desperately needs a tune-

up. All the extra power does is accent how badly that clunker needs

a tune-up. I had to take a partial dose until my total body

straightened out enough to take the full dose. I had to wait as

different aspects of my body played catch-up. Sure my muscles didn't

hurt as much as they did before and had more energy than they had had

and worked better, but my total body could not yet match that

increase in energy and ability. The lungs, digestion, etc. were not

yet up to keeping up with what the muscles now were capable of doing.

I had to wait as the rest of the body played catch-up.

 

Thanks for highlighting other aspects of healing.

 

Victoria

[Guest guest]

Moe:

 

Can you recommend a good source for learning about

medical astrology?

 

Jack

 

=====

 

Meta-physician / M.A., M.J., M.L.I.S.

 

www.geocities.com/mojavecowboy/tcmmanual.htm

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hotjobs: Enter the " Signing Bonus " Sweepstakes

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[Guest guest]

Hi Jack,

You'll have to piece it together, but start with the Rosecrucians, Max

Heindel's book Message of the Stars. If you had to have one, that would be

it. Next place would be to study traditional horary astrology first, and

understand the roles of rulerships in the chart. So that would probably

put Lilly's Christian Astrology next on the booklist. Rulerships and their

relationships to each other are vitally important in judging charts.

 

http://www.astroheal.com/astroheal.html is Ingrid Naimen's site, and she's

considered the final word in medical astrology, but her systems isn't

congruent with the 5 elements, so if your in a TCM mind, it may be

uncomfortable.

 

Horary astrology will give the strongest basis for medical astrology that

you can use. There are a number of teachers who promote the methods used

by these sources, so it's hard to say. My personal favorite for horary is

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/, John Frawley. But that's my bias, others may

have sources that they enjoy. I like the bottom line, and Frawley does

that. (http://www.johnfrawley.com)

 

I think a good practitioner must understand energy as it manifests in

various forms, and it's impossible to be a good practitioner without

understanding astrology, imo (diving under the table to escape the barrage

of rotten airborne fruits, LOL). For this reason, I also think that it's

impossible to understand healing without training in both homeopathy and

TCM. So, in my mind, the perfect training for energy work, is TCM, horary

astrology, TCM, and if you're really serious I Ching. And don't let anyone

fool you, the very best training is experience, because there's a lot of

things that just don't happen by the book, so the final ingredient is time.

What ties all this together into an effective practitioner is one who is

fully aware and conscious, having looked closely at himself with whatever

therapies that he's decided to use. If you don't live your truth, it's

really useless when you apply it outside of your own experience. This

becomes even more messy, when the truth is faithbased, and the client can't

" attach " to that faith experience for whatever reason.

 

blah, blah, blah....... that's prob more than you wanted to know.

 

Sorry.

 

much love,

Moe

 

 

 

At 05:16 PM 1/9/2004, you wrote:

>Moe:

>

>Can you recommend a good source for learning about

>medical astrology?

>

>Jack

>

>=====

>

>Meta-physician / M.A., M.J., M.L.I.S.

>

>www.geocities.com/mojavecowboy/tcmmanual.htm

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

Hotjobs: Enter the " Signing Bonus " Sweepstakes

>http://hotjobs.sweepstakes./signingbonus

>

>

> Post message: Chinese Traditional Medicine

> Subscribe: Chinese Traditional Medicine-

> Un: Chinese Traditional Medicine-

> List owner: Chinese Traditional Medicine-owner

>

>Shortcut URL to this page:

> /community/Chinese Traditional Medicine

>

>

[Guest guest]

I have a huge pile of mail in my TCM folder and will start with this email

first, for no other reason than clarification.

 

ubermommie wrote:

><snip> This doesn't have so much to do with the practitioner that Cat is using,

or even us here on this list, as it does with the direction that Cat's life is

taking. As a medical astrologer among other things, it was clear to me that

the direction that Cat is moving toward is not just mastery of her own physical

condition, but also as she makes and important transition from healed to

healer.

 

Is this a reference to " self-healer " or to becoming a healer of others?

 

>From the last three hours that I spent looking at her charts and derivatives

of it, it's apparent that she is on the path of becoming a healer through the

healing of her own wounds.

 

If you are speaking of becoming a healer of others, at this point from my

perspective I will have to disagree.

 

I have had a private practice in psychotherapy as well as numerous and various

positions in various settings of all kinds leading up to a successful private

practice in psychotherapy, which have spanned a few decades.

 

My other " helping profession " dealt with being a figure skating coach for almost

15 years. My style was to be intensely involved in the creative and artistic

process and I devoted a great deal of time and energy to my students.

 

The success of both of these careers seems to have stemmed from my past life

experiences with my South Node of the Moon placement of (Libra/4th house

matters) being a caretaker and nurturing etc. It is second nature and well

over-worked during past lives. I feel that I feel into the helping

professions because they were relatively easy for me to do well.

 

From here on out I am going to be focusing specifically on actions, career,

whatever that is self-directed and more solo-oriented if that makes sense.

Heading toward any healing professions of any sort, other than my own healing

only, is not at all in my game plan for my sunset years, so to speak.

 

>This journey will require much more than a carte blanche acceptance of her

practitioner's judgements, which may be entirely accurate. That's not the

point, though. Cat's in a period of vital self discovery that's been her entire

life in the making. I'd rather not disclose the particulars of her chart.

 

Well, this is actually much more detail that I would have wanted to get into

here. I am not sure anyone on TCM is interested in my astrological

particulars. So I will point the discussion in a more general direction before

I fear we

bore the entire list with my personal details any longer. :-))

 

Cheers, Cat

 

^. .^ ~

[Guest guest]

victoria_dragon wrote:

>I got the

>impression of someone who is fascinated by TCM, who has seen it work

>very well in her life, and who wants to learn all she can about the

>subject.

 

That sums it up. I have always been fascinated with Chinese art, culture,

philosophy, etc.

When I found this list, I thought " how purrfect for me " !

Cat

 

^. .^ ~

[Guest guest]

victoria_dragon wrote:

> >it was clear to me that the direction that

> > Cat is moving toward is not just mastery of her own physical

>condition, but

> > also as she makes and important transition from healed to healer.

>

>I got that impression too from the nature of her questions. She's

>moving toward being a healer. It may or may not be an herbalist or

>acupuncturist, but she very well may end up playing some kind of role

>in helping others to heal.

 

As I mentioned earlier, I have already had 2 full blown careers helping others.

Now it is time I totally focus on helping myself for a change. ;-)

Cat

 

^. .^ ~

[Guest guest]

>Is this a reference to " self-healer "

 

Yes.

 

Warmly,

Moe