Guest guest Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Jasmina what two capsules are you referring to for the porridge test? Linda - Jasmina Alisic herbal remedies Friday, January 21, 2005 11:40 AM Herbal Remedies - Enzymes I found this article interesting. Take The Oatmeal TestHere’s how it works: Cook up a one serving size bowl of oatmeal…preferably in a drinking glass. The oatmeal should be solid (not runny). Let the oatmeal cool off to about body temperature or 98 degrees. Feel the bottom of the bowl and if it’s warm to the touch (not hot), we’re ready for the test. Take the enclosed two capsules and sprinkle one over the oatmeal. Stir it in with a fork. Then take the second capsule and sprinkle it over the oatmeal again…and continue to stir it in with the fork for 30 seconds to one minute. The oatmeal will turn into a liquid…and can easily be poured from one glass to another. In other words…the oatmeal is digested!The "Oatmeal Test" is simple and easy to do. If you will take two capsules and try this test…you will see the best digestive enzyme product on the market.The "Oatmeal Test" cannot lie. It’s really proof! Yes, you can test any enzyme formulation this way! If the oatmeal doesn’t break down into a liquid…that enzyme formulation will not be very effective in helping with the digestive process. Regards JasminaFederal Law requires that we warn you of the following: 1. Natural methods can sometimes backfire. 2. If you are pregnant, consult your physician before using any natural remedy. 3. The Constitution guarantees you the right to be your own physician and toprescribe for your own health. We are not medical doctors although MDs are welcome to post here as long as they behave themselves. Any opinions put forth by the list members are exactly that, and any person following the advice of anyone posting here does so at their own risk. It is up to you to educate yourself. By accepting advice or products from list members, you are agreeing to be fully responsible for your own health, and hold the List Owner and members free of any liability. Dr. Ian ShillingtonDoctor of NaturopathyDr.IanShillington Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release 12/26/2004 Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release 12/26/2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Of Plany Enzymes Jasmina --- cybercircle <cybercircle wrote: > Jasmina > > what two capsules are you referring to for the > porridge test? > Linda > > - > Jasmina Alisic > herbal remedies > Friday, January 21, 2005 11:40 AM > Herbal Remedies - Enzymes > > > I found this article interesting. > > > > Take The Oatmeal Test > Here's how it works: > > Cook up a one serving size bowl of > oatmeal.preferably in a drinking glass. The oatmeal > should be solid (not runny). Let the oatmeal cool > off to about body temperature or 98 degrees. Feel > the bottom of the bowl and if it's warm to the touch > (not hot), we're ready for the test. > > Take the enclosed two capsules and sprinkle one > over the oatmeal. Stir it in with a fork. Then take > the second capsule and sprinkle it over the oatmeal > again.and continue to stir it in with the fork for > 30 seconds to one minute. > > The oatmeal will turn into a liquid.and can easily > be poured from one glass to another. In other > words.the oatmeal is digested! > > The " Oatmeal Test " is simple and easy to do. If > you will take two capsules and try this test.you > will see the best digestive enzyme product on the > market. > > The " Oatmeal Test " cannot lie. It's really proof! > Yes, you can test any enzyme formulation this way! > If the oatmeal doesn't break down into a liquid.that > enzyme formulation will not be very effective in > helping with the digestive process. > > > > Regards > > Jasmina > > > > Federal Law requires that we warn you of the > following: > 1. Natural methods can sometimes backfire. > 2. If you are pregnant, consult your physician > before using any natural remedy. > 3. The Constitution guarantees you the right to be > your own physician and to > prescribe for your own health. > We are not medical doctors although MDs are > welcome to post here as long as > they behave themselves. > Any opinions put forth by the list members are > exactly that, and any person > following the advice of anyone posting here does > so at their own risk. > It is up to you to educate yourself. By accepting > advice or products from list members, you are > agreeing to > be fully responsible for your own health, and hold > the List Owner and members free of any liability. > > Dr. Ian Shillington > Doctor of Naturopathy > Dr.IanShillington > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 This is very interesting. Did you try this Jasmina???? Love, Doc Ian "Doc" Shillington N.D.727-447-5282Doc - Jasmina Alisic herbal remedies Friday, January 21, 2005 11:40 AM Herbal Remedies - Enzymes I found this article interesting. Take The Oatmeal TestHere’s how it works: Cook up a one serving size bowl of oatmeal…preferably in a drinking glass. The oatmeal should be solid (not runny). Let the oatmeal cool off to about body temperature or 98 degrees. Feel the bottom of the bowl and if it’s warm to the touch (not hot), we’re ready for the test. Take the enclosed two capsules and sprinkle one over the oatmeal. Stir it in with a fork. Then take the second capsule and sprinkle it over the oatmeal again…and continue to stir it in with the fork for 30 seconds to one minute. The oatmeal will turn into a liquid…and can easily be poured from one glass to another. In other words…the oatmeal is digested!The "Oatmeal Test" is simple and easy to do. If you will take two capsules and try this test…you will see the best digestive enzyme product on the market.The "Oatmeal Test" cannot lie. It’s really proof! Yes, you can test any enzyme formulation this way! If the oatmeal doesn’t break down into a liquid…that enzyme formulation will not be very effective in helping with the digestive process. Regards Jasmina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 I must have missed something. What was in the capsules? Lou Take The Oatmeal TestHere’s how it works: Cook up a one serving size bowl of oatmeal…preferably in a drinking glass. The oatmeal should be solid (not runny). Let the oatmeal cool off to about body temperature or 98 degrees. Feel the bottom of the bowl and if it’s warm to the touch (not hot), we’re ready for the test. Take the enclosed two capsules and sprinkle one over the oatmeal. Stir it in with a fork. Then take the second capsule and sprinkle it over the oatmeal again…and continue to stir it in with the fork for 30 seconds to one minute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2008 Report Share Posted April 1, 2008 Good article about how enzymes work - http://www.healthyfutures.net/bluegreensolutions/products/catalog/enzymes-info.p\ hp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 I have stayed out of this because of my personal results with pancreatic enzymes and because what I have seen with clients is exactly opposite to what has been indicated about pancreatic enzymes.  Jim, the email about pancreatic enzymes does not throw me for a loop as I have heard it all before. It is not something new and is often brought-up by those who lean toward conventional medicine thought. What I am concerned about is the fear (False Evidence Appearing Real) that has resulted. People have ridiculed Dr. Kelley and Dr. Gonzalez for a long time, even in the natural medicine community, yet they most obviously got/get results – why do we forget this? Unfortunately, many in natural medicine have over-sized egos. J If Dr. Gonzalez would not talk to this person then we should ask “is their more to the story.† If I know something to be true, I will not make time to argue just for the sake of argument or to fuel someone’s ego. And, you know what, sometimes there is no real science behind “why†something works or does not work. (I did many modalities, while healing, that had no real science backing – but I was willing and eager to do WHATEVER it took to get well – even if there was no science and, in fact, because I had already dealt with the “scientific community†I tended to believe more in things that were not proven.) I do agree with much of what he has to say about the woes of conventional medicine and he knows this because I have told him. I’m not totally clear as to what exactly constitutes a “high amount†of pancreatic enzymes? Two, Five, Ten, Fifteen? And at what milligrams? (This same discussion happens all the time concerning what Dr. Budwig meant when she said not to take “high amounts†of antioxidants.) Has anyone asked?  If we accept what he “finds†as the making of some sort of clinical trial then we need to ask the following: Did they all take the exact same type of pancreatic enzymes (not all are made the same), the same amount and were they militant with dosage? I wonder how many were taking a multi-vitamin/mineral complex? Probably ALL of them. Were they all taking other supplements that were exactly the same? What type of diet were they on – were they all on the SAME diet? Were they pulsing their supplements so that the body doesn’t get acclimated and therefore become resistant? Have they had any conventional treatment? What are their ages? Any emotional situations that could have resulted in non-compliance of their protocol or stress on the body? Stress kills just as much as chemo/radiation. I have found that the word “compliance†means different things to different people. Some think that compliance means Saturdays and Sundays off. Some think that it means they will only eat at McDonald’s 3x’s per week instead of 5. Unless these people were ALL cloned in their lifestyles, emotions, toxins, supplements, etc. there is no way one can honestly conclude that the sole reason for rapid metastasis was because of pancreatic enzymes. This is also why clinical trials are usually faulty. And why do we try to apply so-called medical science to natural medicine. Do we really believe that they mesh? Rapidly metastasizing cancer also happens in people who do not take enzymes --- medical science is trying to inhibit enzymes because this is supposedly the route of metastasis…..heard of any good success by doing this? I haven’t. Before I go much further. The following is the quote that has everyone so upset: I would be hard pressed to think of any effective treatment without a downside, and any poison without an upside. Do enzymes cause metastasis? Sure they do, but a person might well die of other aspects of the disease, or get cured of the disease, before significant metastasis occurs. It is through enzymes (the matrix metalloproteinases) that all metastasis occurs. There is much research in both conventional and alternative medicine to inhibit these enzymes. Whenever I find a patient with inexplicably fast metastasis I always ask if they were taking enzyme. Surprisingly often I hear yes. Look at the words -- but, any, and often. They are “both sides of the fence†and “safe†words.  One’s total protocol must be taken into account, not just one particular supplement. I would say that if all one is doing is enzymes then possibly there would be an argument. But if one is implementing other cancer-fighting supplements, supporting healthy diet, sunshine, exercise, stress reduction, etc. then I believe that pancreatic enzymes can be a very important part of a healing protocol. Remember we must look at the whole protocol, not just parts, otherwise we begin to think like conventional medicine. Do not put your faith and trust in one supplement…..people get well because of an effective whole-body approach. Proteolytic enzymes and amylase induce cytokine production in human peripheral blood mononuclear cells in vitro. Desser L, Rehberger A, Paukovits W. Institute of Experimental and Applied Oncology, University of Vienna, Austria. In vitro treatment of human peripheral blood mononuclear cells (PBMNC) with proteolytic enzymes (bromelain, papain) and amylase leads to the production of large amounts of tumor necrosis factor-alpha (TNF-alpha), interleukin-1-beta (IL-1 beta), and interleukin-6 (IL-6) in a time and dose dependent manner. Increased TNF-alpha and IL-6 production was already found after 4-6 hours of incubation, and plateau levels were reached after 12-16 hours. Plateau levels up to 1500 pg TNF-alpha/ml/10(6) PBMNC, 13000 pg IL-1 beta/ml/10(6) PBMNC, and 23000 pg IL-6/ml/10(6) PBMNC were observed. Control cultures contained below 35 pg/ml/10(6) PBMNC of TNF-alpha, IL-1 beta or IL-6. In contrast to TNF-alpha which was undetectable after more than 24 hours, peak levels of IL-1 beta and IL-6 were still present at 24 hours. After incubation of the enzyme solution for some hours at 56 degrees C the cytokine inducing capacity disappeared. Neutralization experiments with inactivating antibodies, radioimmunoassay, and western blotting after electrophoretic separation showed that the TNF-like activity found in the lytic assay was due to TNF-alpha. Interferon-alpha (IFN-alpha) and Interferon-gamma (IFN-gamma), which had no effect alone, synergistically increased TNF-alpha production when applied together with the enzymes. A commercial mixture of these enzymes (Wobenzym), which was also investigated, showed a similar concentration and time dependence, as well as synergism with the interferons. A synergistic effect on TNF-alpha production was also found with the enzymes and phorbol ester (PMA). While there is a kernel of fact about pancreatic enzymes, (chymotrypsin makes tunnels for new capillaries) chymotrypsin ALSO DESTORYS the tumor coating, making it vulnerable to other supplementation that attacks cancer. Not all “rapid metastisizers†have enzyme intake involved. Some tumors by their nature are fast growers. It has nothing to do with proteolytic enzyme inhibition and everything to do with inhibition of metabolic gluconeogenesis enzymes and the reversal of cachexia. Tumors run on glycolysis and therefore need glucose. Shut off the glucose supply, kill the tumor. Proteolytics are potent tools in fighting rapid metabolizing tumors when used in conjunction with protocols that address helping the body to get balanced. It's not just about killing cancer cells -- that is the thinking of allopathic medicine and while it may seem to work for a season, if the body is not supported and brought back into balance, eventually the cancer cells will over-run the body. I’d have to see a lot of unbiased data to make the case that “proteolytic enzymes cause metastasis.â€Â And the fact that most of this data would come from conventional medicine studies where results are often skewed (certainly no money in natural enzyme therapy), most likely I still would not give it much credence. No one has to be a statistic and clinical trials where cancer is involved usually use participants that have had or are currently doing conventional treatment and nothing natural to support their body.  Or the trials are using animals such as rats. Some people are very gifted and skilled in how they write and express themselves. They could sell ice to an Eskimo especially if they have been set up as an expert. For some it is a valuable talent and for others it is something they have deemed important enough to “learn.â€Â There are actually courses one can take about how to make people believe what you say. I would highly suggest that the individuals on this forum and any other forum do their own research and due diligence. Ultimately it is YOUR decision about HOW you get well. The importance of “belief†is imperative when healing. Sometimes we cannot “prove†or “disprove†why something works or does not work BECAUSE WE DON’T KNOW EVERYTHING…..including science who has worked long and hard to try to prove that we are all the same – the basis of conventional medicine. Just isn’t so. Everyone’s experiences are different – what works for one may not work for another; however, it doesn’t mean that it never works. What does matter in every instance of disease/illness is what the mind believes. When a client approaches me with a “Convince me believe what you offer is effective†type of attitude, I tell them I cannot help them. It is not my job to convince. It is my job to teach and be a team player. It is their job to implement and believe.  Two people can use the exact same protocol with the exact same compliance and one get well and the other doesn’t. Why? It’s called belief and intent. I know it sounds much, much too simple and a little bit “out-there†for some because they are not ready to open their mind.  I believe that in the next ten years people will be talking much more seriously about the importance of the mind in healing illness and disease. I highly recommend reading The Biology of Belief by Bruce Lipton. Be Well Loretta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009  Sorry this was just too long...... - Dr. Loretta Lanphier oleander soup Sunday, April 05, 2009 7:44 PM Enzymes I have stayed out of this because of my personal results with pancreatic enzymes and because what I have seen with clients is exactly opposite to what has been indicated about pancreatic enzymes. Jim, the email about pancreatic enzymes does not throw me for a loop as I have heard it all before. It is not something new and is often brought-up by those who lean toward conventional medicine thought. What I am concerned about is the fear (False Evidence Appearing Real) that has resulted. People have ridiculed Dr. Kelley and Dr. Gonzalez for a long time, even in the natural medicine community, yet they most obviously got/get results – why do we forget this? Unfortunately, many in natural medicine have over-sized egos. J If Dr. Gonzalez would not talk to this person then we should ask “is their more to the story.†If I know something to be true, I will not make time to argue just for the sake of argument or to fuel someone’s ego. And, you know what, sometimes there is no real science behind “why†something works or does not work. (I did many modalities, while healing, that had no real science backing – but I was willing and eager to do WHATEVER it took to get well – even if there was no science and, in fact, because I had already dealt with the “scientific community†I tended to believe more in things that were not proven.) I do agree with much of what he has to say about the woes of conventional medicine and he knows this because I have told him. I’m not totally clear as to what exactly constitutes a “high amount†of pancreatic enzymes? Two, Five, Ten, Fifteen? And at what milligrams? (This same discussion happens all the time concerning what Dr. Budwig meant when she said not to take “high amounts†of antioxidants.) Has anyone asked? If we accept what he “finds†as the making of some sort of clinical trial then we need to ask the following: Did they all take the exact same type of pancreatic enzymes (not all are made the same), the same amount and were they militant with dosage? I wonder how many were taking a multi-vitamin/mineral complex? Probably ALL of them. Were they all taking other supplements that were exactly the same? What type of diet were they on – were they all on the SAME diet? Were they pulsing their supplements so that the body doesn’t get acclimated and therefore become resistant? Have they had any conventional treatment? What are their ages? Any emotional situations that could have resulted in non-compliance of their protocol or stress on the body? Stress kills just as much as chemo/radiation. I have found that the word “compliance†means different things to different people. Some think that compliance means Saturdays and Sundays off. Some think that it means they will only eat at McDonald’s 3x’s per week instead of 5. Unless these people were ALL cloned in their lifestyles, emotions, toxins, supplements, etc. there is no way one can honestly conclude that the sole reason for rapid metastasis was because of pancreatic enzymes. This is also why clinical trials are usually faulty. And why do we try to apply so-called medical science to natural medicine. Do we really believe that they mesh? Rapidly metastasizing cancer also happens in people who do not take enzymes --- medical science is trying to inhibit enzymes because this is supposedly the route of metastasis…..heard of any good success by doing this? I haven’t. Before I go much further. The following is the quote that has everyone so upset: I would be hard pressed to think of any effective treatment without a downside, and any poison without an upside. Do enzymes cause metastasis? Sure they do, but a person might well die of other aspects of the disease, or get cured of the disease, before significant metastasis occurs. It is through enzymes (the matrix metalloproteinases) that all metastasis occurs. There is much research in both conventional and alternative medicine to inhibit these enzymes. Whenever I find a patient with inexplicably fast metastasis I always ask if they were taking enzyme. Surprisingly often I hear yes. Look at the words -- but, any, and often. They are “both sides of the fence†and “safe†words. One’s total protocol must be taken into account, not just one particular supplement. I would say that if all one is doing is enzymes then possibly there would be an argument. But if one is implementing other cancer-fighting supplements, supporting healthy diet, sunshine, exercise, stress reduction, etc. then I believe that pancreatic enzymes can be a very important part of a healing protocol. Remember we must look at the whole protocol, not just parts, otherwise we begin to think like conventional medicine. Do not put your faith and trust in one supplement…..people get well because of an effective whole-body approach. Proteolytic enzymes and amylase induce cytokine production in human peripheral blood mononuclear cells in vitro.Desser L, Rehberger A, Paukovits W.Institute of Experimental and Applied Oncology, University of Vienna, Austria.In vitro treatment of human peripheral blood mononuclear cells (PBMNC) with proteolytic enzymes (bromelain, papain) and amylase leads to the production of large amounts of tumor necrosis factor-alpha (TNF-alpha), interleukin-1-beta (IL-1 beta), and interleukin-6 (IL-6) in a time and dose dependent manner. Increased TNF-alpha and IL-6 production was already found after 4-6 hours of incubation, and plateau levels were reached after 12-16 hours. Plateau levels up to 1500 pg TNF-alpha/ml/10(6) PBMNC, 13000 pg IL-1 beta/ml/10(6) PBMNC, and 23000 pg IL-6/ml/10(6) PBMNC were observed. Control cultures contained below 35 pg/ml/10(6) PBMNC of TNF-alpha, IL-1 beta or IL-6. In contrast to TNF-alpha which was undetectable after more than 24 hours, peak levels of IL-1 beta and IL-6 were still present at 24 hours. After incubation of the enzyme solution for some hours at 56 degrees C the cytokine inducing capacity disappeared. Neutralization experiments with inactivating antibodies, radioimmunoassay, and western blotting after electrophoretic separation showed that the TNF-like activity found in the lytic assay was due to TNF-alpha. Interferon-alpha (IFN-alpha) and Interferon-gamma (IFN-gamma), which had no effect alone, synergistically increased TNF-alpha production when applied together with the enzymes. A commercial mixture of these enzymes (Wobenzym), which was also investigated, showed a similar concentration and time dependence, as well as synergism with the interferons. A synergistic effect on TNF-alpha production was also found with the enzymes and phorbol ester (PMA). While there is a kernel of fact about pancreatic enzymes, (chymotrypsin makes tunnels for new capillaries) chymotrypsin ALSO DESTORYS the tumor coating, making it vulnerable to other supplementation that attacks cancer. Not all “rapid metastisizers†have enzyme intake involved. Some tumors by their nature are fast growers. It has nothing to do with proteolytic enzyme inhibition and everything to do with inhibition of metabolic gluconeogenesis enzymes and the reversal of cachexia. Tumors run on glycolysis and therefore need glucose. Shut off the glucose supply, kill the tumor. Proteolytics are potent tools in fighting rapid metabolizing tumors when used in conjunction with protocols that address helping the body to get balanced. It's not just about killing cancer cells -- that is the thinking of allopathic medicine and while it may seem to work for a season, if the body is not supported and brought back into balance, eventually the cancer cells will over-run the body. I’d have to see a lot of unbiased data to make the case that “proteolytic enzymes cause metastasis.†And the fact that most of this data would come from conventional medicine studies where results are often skewed (certainly no money in natural enzyme therapy), most likely I still would not give it much credence. No one has to be a statistic and clinical trials where cancer is involved usually use participants that have had or are currently doing conventional treatment and nothing natural to support their body. Or the trials are using animals such as rats. Some people are very gifted and skilled in how they write and express themselves. They could sell ice to an Eskimo especially if they have been set up as an expert. For some it is a valuable talent and for others it is something they have deemed important enough to “learn.†There are actually courses one can take about how to make people believe what you say. I would highly suggest that the individuals on this forum and any other forum do their own research and due diligence. Ultimately it is YOUR decision about HOW you get well. The importance of “belief†is imperative when healing. Sometimes we cannot “prove†or “disprove†why something works or does not work BECAUSE WE DON’T KNOW EVERYTHING…..including science who has worked long and hard to try to prove that we are all the same – the basis of conventional medicine. Just isn’t so. Everyone’s experiences are different – what works for one may not work for another; however, it doesn’t mean that it never works. What does matter in every instance of disease/illness is what the mind believes. When a client approaches me with a “Convince me believe what you offer is effective†type of attitude, I tell them I cannot help them. It is not my job to convince. It is my job to teach and be a team player. It is their job to implement and believe. Two people can use the exact same protocol with the exact same compliance and one get well and the other doesn’t. Why? It’s called belief and intent. I know it sounds much, much too simple and a little bit “out-there†for some because they are not ready to open their mind. I believe that in the next ten years people will be talking much more seriously about the importance of the mind in healing illness and disease. I highly recommend reading The Biology of Belief by Bruce Lipton. Be Well Loretta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 Sorry you feel this way.  Of course you have a right to voice your opinion and it is noted, but maybe it is not too long for someone else that needs the information.  Do what most do and use the delete button if it doesn’t pertain to you or interest you. J Be Well Loretta oleander soup oleander soup On Behalf Of Tammatha Sunday, April 05, 2009 11:10 PM oleander soup Re: Enzymes  Sorry this was just too long...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 Actually I did not find it be one word longer than necessary to impart all the valuable information the message contained. Being a writer, I tend and journalistic researcher, I PREFER longer messages - certainly mine tend to be that way at times - especially when that is what it takes to fully explain and inform. My two cents on digestive enzymes, again, is that they are valuable and not just for digestion. They may not be NECESSARY in many instances, but if I had pancreatic cancer they are one of the first things I would reach for along with oleander, black seed oil and Budwig's flaxseed/cottage cheese. Likewise I would be sure to use them for tumors which proved resistant to treatment. oleander soup , "Tammatha" <tammatha wrote:>> Sorry this was just too long......> - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 I thought your message was wonderful and informative and not one word too long. Tammatha must be having an off day? oleander soup , "Dr. Loretta Lanphier" <drlanphier wrote:>> Sorry you feel this way. Of course you have a right to voice your opinion and it is noted, but maybe it is not too long for someone else that needs the information. > > Do what most do and use the delete button if it doesn’t pertain to you or interest you. J> > Be Well> Loretta> > > oleander soup oleander soup On Behalf Of Tammatha> Sunday, April 05, 2009 11:10 PM> oleander soup > Re: Enzymes> >  > Sorry this was just too long......> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 Thanks for the info - The Biology of Belief was recommended to me by my DS & I have so many books to read already that I put it off. Not now! I'll get it and it will jump the queue. My family stays on enzymes and that is that. Spent too much time in oncology wards as a visitor and home help for pts. Not one was on enzymes - that spoke volumes to me.Thanks again. Love, Mara--- On Sun, 4/5/09, Dr. Loretta Lanphier <drlanphier wrote:Dr. Loretta Lanphier <drlanphier Enzymesoleander soup Date: Sunday, April 5, 2009, 7:44 PM I have stayed out of this because of my personal results with pancreatic enzymes and because what I have seen with clients is exactly opposite to what has been indicated about pancreatic enzymes. Jim, the email about pancreatic enzymes does not throw me for a loop as I have heard it all before. It is not something new and is often brought-up by those who lean toward conventional medicine thought. What I am concerned about is the fear (False Evidence Appearing Real) that has resulted. People have ridiculed Dr. Kelley and Dr. Gonzalez for a long time, even in the natural medicine community, yet they most obviously got/get results – why do we forget this? Unfortunately, many in natural medicine have over-sized egos. J If Dr. Gonzalez would not talk to this person then we should ask “is their more to the story.†If I know something to be true, I will not make time to argue just for the sake of argument or to fuel someone’s ego. And, you know what, sometimes there is no real science behind “why†something works or does not work. (I did many modalities, while healing, that had no real science backing – but I was willing and eager to do WHATEVER it took to get well – even if there was no science and, in fact, because I had already dealt with the “scientific community†I tended to believe more in things that were not proven.) I do agree with much of what he has to say about the woes of conventional medicine and he knows this because I have told him. I’m not totally clear as to what exactly constitutes a “high amount†of pancreatic enzymes? Two, Five, Ten, Fifteen? And at what milligrams? (This same discussion happens all the time concerning what Dr. Budwig meant when she said not to take “high amounts†of antioxidants. ) Has anyone asked? If we accept what he “finds†as the making of some sort of clinical trial then we need to ask the following: Did they all take the exact same type of pancreatic enzymes (not all are made the same), the same amount and were they militant with dosage? I wonder how many were taking a multi-vitamin/ mineral complex? Probably ALL of them. Were they all taking other supplements that were exactly the same? What type of diet were they on – were they all on the SAME diet? Were they pulsing their supplements so that the body doesn’t get acclimated and therefore become resistant? Have they had any conventional treatment? What are their ages? Any emotional situations that could have resulted in non-compliance of their protocol or stress on the body? Stress kills just as much as chemo/radiation. I have found that the word “compliance†means different things to different people. Some think that compliance means Saturdays and Sundays off. Some think that it means they will only eat at McDonald’s 3x’s per week instead of 5. Unless these people were ALL cloned in their lifestyles, emotions, toxins, supplements, etc. there is no way one can honestly conclude that the sole reason for rapid metastasis was because of pancreatic enzymes. This is also why clinical trials are usually faulty. And why do we try to apply so-called medical science to natural medicine. Do we really believe that they mesh? Rapidly metastasizing cancer also happens in people who do not take enzymes --- medical science is trying to inhibit enzymes because this is supposedly the route of metastasis…..heard of any good success by doing this? I haven’t. Before I go much further. The following is the quote that has everyone so upset: I would be hard pressed to think of any effective treatment without a downside, and any poison without an upside. Do enzymes cause metastasis? Sure they do, but a person might well die of other aspects of the disease, or get cured of the disease, before significant metastasis occurs. It is through enzymes (the matrix metalloproteinases) that all metastasis occurs. There is much research in both conventional and alternative medicine to inhibit these enzymes. Whenever I find a patient with inexplicably fast metastasis I always ask if they were taking enzyme. Surprisingly often I hear yes. Look at the words -- but, any, and often. They are “both sides of the fence†and “safe†words. One’s total protocol must be taken into account, not just one particular supplement. I would say that if all one is doing is enzymes then possibly there would be an argument. But if one is implementing other cancer-fighting supplements, supporting healthy diet, sunshine, exercise, stress reduction, etc. then I believe that pancreatic enzymes can be a very important part of a healing protocol. Remember we must look at the whole protocol, not just parts, otherwise we begin to think like conventional medicine. Do not put your faith and trust in one supplement…..people get well because of an effective whole-body approach. Proteolytic enzymes and amylase induce cytokine production in human peripheral blood mononuclear cells in vitro. Desser L, Rehberger A, Paukovits W. Institute of Experimental and Applied Oncology, University of Vienna, Austria. In vitro treatment of human peripheral blood mononuclear cells (PBMNC) with proteolytic enzymes (bromelain, papain) and amylase leads to the production of large amounts of tumor necrosis factor-alpha (TNF-alpha), interleukin- 1-beta (IL-1 beta), and interleukin- 6 (IL-6) in a time and dose dependent manner. Increased TNF-alpha and IL-6 production was already found after 4-6 hours of incubation, and plateau levels were reached after 12-16 hours. Plateau levels up to 1500 pg TNF-alpha/ml/ 10(6) PBMNC, 13000 pg IL-1 beta/ml/10(6) PBMNC, and 23000 pg IL-6/ml/10(6) PBMNC were observed. Control cultures contained below 35 pg/ml/10(6) PBMNC of TNF-alpha, IL-1 beta or IL-6. In contrast to TNF-alpha which was undetectable after more than 24 hours, peak levels of IL-1 beta and IL-6 were still present at 24 hours. After incubation of the enzyme solution for some hours at 56 degrees C the cytokine inducing capacity disappeared. Neutralization experiments with inactivating antibodies, radioimmunoassay, and western blotting after electrophoretic separation showed that the TNF-like activity found in the lytic assay was due to TNF-alpha.. Interferon-alpha (IFN-alpha) and Interferon-gamma (IFN-gamma), which had no effect alone, synergistically increased TNF-alpha production when applied together with the enzymes. A commercial mixture of these enzymes (Wobenzym), which was also investigated, showed a similar concentration and time dependence, as well as synergism with the interferons. A synergistic effect on TNF-alpha production was also found with the enzymes and phorbol ester (PMA). While there is a kernel of fact about pancreatic enzymes, (chymotrypsin makes tunnels for new capillaries) chymotrypsin ALSO DESTORYS the tumor coating, making it vulnerable to other supplementation that attacks cancer. Not all “rapid metastisizers†have enzyme intake involved. Some tumors by their nature are fast growers. It has nothing to do with proteolytic enzyme inhibition and everything to do with inhibition of metabolic gluconeogenesis enzymes and the reversal of cachexia. Tumors run on glycolysis and therefore need glucose. Shut off the glucose supply, kill the tumor. Proteolytics are potent tools in fighting rapid metabolizing tumors when used in conjunction with protocols that address helping the body to get balanced. It's not just about killing cancer cells -- that is the thinking of allopathic medicine and while it may seem to work for a season, if the body is not supported and brought back into balance, eventually the cancer cells will over-run the body. I’d have to see a lot of unbiased data to make the case that “proteolytic enzymes cause metastasis.†And the fact that most of this data would come from conventional medicine studies where results are often skewed (certainly no money in natural enzyme therapy), most likely I still would not give it much credence. No one has to be a statistic and clinical trials where cancer is involved usually use participants that have had or are currently doing conventional treatment and nothing natural to support their body. Or the trials are using animals such as rats. Some people are very gifted and skilled in how they write and express themselves. They could sell ice to an Eskimo especially if they have been set up as an expert. For some it is a valuable talent and for others it is something they have deemed important enough to “learn.†There are actually courses one can take about how to make people believe what you say. I would highly suggest that the individuals on this forum and any other forum do their own research and due diligence. Ultimately it is YOUR decision about HOW you get well.. The importance of “belief†is imperative when healing. Sometimes we cannot “prove†or “disprove†why something works or does not work BECAUSE WE DON’T KNOW EVERYTHING…..including science who has worked long and hard to try to prove that we are all the same – the basis of conventional medicine. Just isn’t so.. Everyone’s experiences are different – what works for one may not work for another; however, it doesn’t mean that it never works. What does matter in every instance of disease/illness is what the mind believes. When a client approaches me with a “Convince me believe what you offer is effective†type of attitude, I tell them I cannot help them. It is not my job to convince. It is my job to teach and be a team player. It is their job to implement and believe. Two people can use the exact same protocol with the exact same compliance and one get well and the other doesn’t. Why? It’s called belief and intent. I know it sounds much, much too simple and a little bit “out-there†for some because they are not ready to open their mind. I believe that in the next ten years people will be talking much more seriously about the importance of the mind in healing illness and disease. I highly recommend reading The Biology of Belief by Bruce Lipton. Be Well Loretta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 Thank you very much for your detailed answer, Dr. LL. It was greatly appreciated. I could sense that you were a bit irritated, and I can understand that. It was not my intention to start a flame war. I just started taking your wonderful product, but it freaked me out when I read the posts saying the stuff could kill me (pancreatic enzymes in general, not your product specifically). So... in my own way I was pushing for answers, for a discussion, for input from many sources. Thanks again for the help! oleander soup , " Dr. Loretta Lanphier " <drlanphier wrote: > > I have stayed out of this because of my personal results with pancreatic enzymes and because what I have seen with clients is exactly opposite to what has been indicated about pancreatic enzymes. Jim, the email about pancreatic enzymes does not throw me for a loop as I have heard it all before. It is not something new and is often brought-up by those who lean toward conventional medicine thought. What I am concerned about is the fear (False Evidence Appearing Real) that has resulted. People have ridiculed Dr. Kelley and Dr. Gonzalez for a long time, even in the natural medicine community, yet they most obviously got/get results †" why do we forget this? Unfortunately, many in natural medicine have over-sized egos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 I am so grateful to Dr Loretta for her thoughtful response. The one line that struck me to the core was " stress is as dangerous as chemo " .I've known this intuitively for a couple of years now and just recently decided I've got to get a handle on my stress response. Then we were hit with a major stress-inducing situation and we all got sick. Thank you for emphasizing this (as do Tony and ). I'm striving to make this a priority as I have done with my diet and other physical aspects of my life.I am immensely grateful to this list of smart folks. Warm regards,Janetwho cannot BELIEVE it is snowing today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009  sorry you feel that way too....didn't mean for you to be defensive, wasn't the intention, sometimes though you lose people when it gets too wordy that's all.... Tammatha - Dr. Loretta Lanphier oleander soup Sunday, April 05, 2009 9:37 PM RE: Enzymes Sorry you feel this way. Of course you have a right to voice your opinion and it is noted, but maybe it is not too long for someone else that needs the information. Do what most do and use the delete button if it doesn’t pertain to you or interest you. J Be WellLoretta oleander soup oleander soup On Behalf Of TammathaSunday, April 05, 2009 11:10 PMoleander soup Subject: Re: Enzymes  Sorry this was just too long...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 Nope not an off day, sometimes too much information overwhelms some people. Less is more in just about all instances, simplify. Not trying to be critical just pointing out the obvious sorry.... Tammatha - Tony oleander soup Sunday, April 05, 2009 9:41 PM Re: Enzymes I thought your message was wonderful and informative and not one word too long. Tammatha must be having an off day? oleander soup , "Dr. Loretta Lanphier" <drlanphier wrote:>> Sorry you feel this way. Of course you have a right to voice your opinion and it is noted, but maybe it is not too long for someone else that needs the information. > > Do what most do and use the delete button if it doesn’t pertain to you or interest you. J> > Be Well> Loretta> > > oleander soup oleander soup On Behalf Of Tammatha> Sunday, April 05, 2009 11:10 PM> oleander soup > Re: Enzymes> >  > Sorry this was just too long......> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 Tammatha, I find that having a clean computer screen helps me get through the longer posts. Try this:http://www.raincitystory.com/flash/screenclean.swf - Steveoleander soup oleander soup On Behalf Of TammathaMonday, April 06, 2009 11:13 AMoleander soup Subject: Re: Re: EnzymesNope not an off day, sometimes too much information overwhelms some people. Less is more in just about all instances, simplify. Not trying to be critical just pointing out the obvious sorry.... Tammatha- Tony oleander soup Sunday, April 05, 2009 9:41 PM Re: EnzymesI thought your message was wonderful and informative and not one word too long.Tammatha must be having an off day?Tonyoleander soup , "Dr. Loretta Lanphier" <drlanphier wrote:>> Sorry you feel this way. Of course you have a right to voice your opinion and it is noted, but maybe it is not too long for someone else that needs the information. > > Do what most do and use the delete button if it doesn’t pertain to you or interest you. J> > Be Well> Loretta> > > oleander soup oleander soup On Behalf Of Tammatha> Sunday, April 05, 2009 11:10 PM> oleander soup > Re: Enzymes> >  > Sorry this was just too long......> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 I guess we will have to disagree then. When it comes to someone either describing their condition or a condition in general and describing or suggesting remedies, the more information the better as far as I am concerned. I cannot see a single thing I would have liked left out in that post and like other members who replied I found it quite informative. In particular I am awaiting Dr. Lanphier's reply about pulsing supplements. I know what she is talking about and, though I have touched on it before, I realize that it is a subject that needs to expanded on for one and all. I might add my two cents later, but I will defer to her expertise for the main reply. oleander soup , "Tammatha" <tammatha wrote:>> Nope not an off day, sometimes too much information overwhelms some people. Less is more in just about all instances, simplify. Not trying to be critical just pointing out the obvious sorry....> > Tammatha> - > Tony > oleander soup > Sunday, April 05, 2009 9:41 PM> Re: Enzymes> > > > I thought your message was wonderful and informative and not one word too long.> Tammatha must be having an off day?> Tony> oleander soup , "Dr. Loretta Lanphier" drlanphier@ wrote:> >> > Sorry you feel this way. Of course you have a right to voice your opinion and it is noted, but maybe it is not too long for someone else that needs the information. > > > > Do what most do and use the delete button if it doesnâ?Tt pertain to you or interest you. J> > > > Be Well> > Loretta> > > > > > oleander soup oleander soup On Behalf Of Tammatha> > Sunday, April 05, 2009 11:10 PM> > oleander soup > > Re: Enzymes> > > >  > > Sorry this was just too long......> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Dr. Lamphier, Thank you for your informative response. Personally, I prefer as much information on a topic as I can possibly get, as long as it is pertinent and well organized. I found your post to be so. Information such as this has a possiblity of affecting life and death situations. Because of this, I feel the more detailed and correct information one can get, the better. My work right now is learning as much as I can about these topics. What I learn I also share with others who are open to it. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge and experience on this forum. Blessings, Jill~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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