Research

[Guest guest]

ÿþ

[Guest guest]

, <yulong@m...> wrote:

> This is a theme that we've been working

> to develop in CAOM. I've just handed over

> to production the next batch of papers

> from last year's meeting at Exeter University

> (outside of London) conducted by Steve Birch

> Richard Hammerschlag and a dozen or so of

> their colleagues in the field of research

> into traditional forms of medicine from

> East Asia.

 

 

Is this the project we donated to last year or so?

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Ken:

 

This is a theme that we've been workingto develop in CAOM. I've just handed overto production the next batch of papersfrom last year's meeting at Exeter University(outside of London) conducted by Steve BirchRichard Hammerschlag and a dozen or so oftheir colleagues in the field of researchinto traditional forms of medicine fromEast Asia.

 

Marco:

 

In a way it is familiarity-understanding-comprehension with words-terms and recognition of its meaning-concept that will help in constructing research that investigate actual treatment modality both its "impulsing" concepts and visible action of doing - applying the treatment modality.

 

For example first time since I been hooked (literary hooked) on this discussion list I see you, Ken, using the term-phrase

"traditional forms of medicine from East Asia" if this reality can be accepted to Chinese medicine and related disciplines and Allied disciplines such as Western medicine, the foundation to actually do research taking the "impulsing" factors into account will be realize as a need, which is maybe evolving but still is lacking as a "norm".

 

Also, to recognise-understand what is research?

 

May sound like a simple question but think it is as deceptive as asking what is acumoxa, the question appears to be simple but is actually in my opinion very deceptive.

 

Here a whole social structure is involved from general opinions of the person in the street to local-regional and territorial health policy makers and even world health organisation and organisations.

 

For example it would be interesting to contrast the CAOM papers on research with the WHO published paper on research and "traditional medicine" and another paper I think more specific to acumoxa as well as the NIH in USA, the name of the "Complimentary Alternative section" I forgot (for the moment). Also what countries like Australia and Canada have and or doing would be to me out most important.

 

Thus for a further issue of CAOM (which I am still not d to yet) Authors from these two Countries could be invited to write on the very topic of research, Rey Tiquia would someone that I would love (sorry for the non sterile term) to se more writing from with or with out regards to research. .

 

Then as always in the English speaking Chinese medical "community" I think that China, Vietnam, Taiwan, Korea (the two), and Japan is less represented (maybe Japan is more represented due to Steven Birch and others).

 

Thus for further issues of CAOM I would be willing to go to Vietnam, Korea(s) and so forth as part of a sponsored team to learn and comprehend about what is "happening" there (It is always worth trying to use suggestive writing, which I have Ken to thank for bringing up this aspect of Chinese medicine and in East Asian medicine to, presumably:-)

 

The beautiful aspect to the topic of research is that I genuialy think this can be a three way interactive learning experience. Both with regard to Chinese medical practitioners and Western TCM practitioners and with regard to Western medical practitioners i.e. practitioners of Western medicine

 

A triangle so to speak, if this is done in a constructive way I think that a WHO conference (in Guatemala, just a thought:-), to really set high standards and comprehensibility of Chinese-East Asian medicine and research "could-should" take place.

 

A paper that I feel is very important on this topic of research is by someone called Hiener Fraihut (sorry if the name is mis-spelt, maybe someone care to correct) and think the paper is entitle "Chinese medicine in Crises" published by another journal that also has done a lot to promote and accept Chinese medicine, The Journal of U.K.

 

This Author could maybe be invited to write "Chinese medicine in criseses - revisited" for ACOM?

 

Speaking about a suggestion of Authors I think that someone called Mazin Al Kahfaij (sorry if the name is mispelt) is under represented in public eye of Chinese medicine, if this is do to personal choice I have no idea...

 

One aspect of research that I actually think is neglected is to do peer review critic (and publish it) of why western ideological research studies are incompatible or inconsistence with how efficacy is accomplished in Chinese medicine, dear I say it still is Taboo?

 

 

Ken:

 

The Chinese are pressing ahead rapidly.In every new high tech development zonethere is a Life Sciences division, andI've not seen a single one come intoview that lacks at least one operationfocused on R & D of TCM medicines andmodalities. It's really quite stunningto see this level of activity.

 

Marco:

 

This aspects needs to be explained for literary the rest of the world (and I am not trying to be dramatic), again mention what is being done in other countries such as Vietnam and so forth...?

 

 

Ken:

 

Far more than a crack in the wallseen from the perspective of conditionsin China. Of course there is far lessof an issue with marketability ofproducts and therefore flow of capitalto justify such expenditures here inChina. But a good deal of the currenttooling up of R & D is aimed at increasingmarket share of Chinese interests inthe international marketplace and isthus looking at ways to scientificallyvalidate the efficacy of traditionalmethods and medicines.

 

Marco:

 

Is this then not coming back to the problem of what is research, since most likely scientifically here means based in the Western Cosmovision. Will it really help one to become a good practitioner of Chinese medicine (or rather to what extent?) and thus ensure a clinical possibility of Chinese medicine as a treatment modality for further generations?

 

or is this where Complexity (which I unfortunately am not familiar with yet) comes in as a more interconective science as to life in the clinic and at large?

 

Ken:

 

Another big push that is underwayin the PRC is adoption of a wholenew set of quality control standardsand practices to govern the chaosof production and distribution ofmedicinals...and here this concernsboth modern pharmaceutical medicinesas well as traditional formulas andproducts. New laws were passed lastDecember, and new regulations havejust now gone into effect that allowlocal provincial authorities to arrest and fine retailers who purchasefrom uncertified producers/wholesalers.

 

Marco:

 

This is very good news, I am interested in this aspect for the fact of aiming to promote Chinese medicine in Guatemala both its paradigm and its agents i.e. natural drugs and the vital concepts for them to "mediate" health. Also if Guatemala could create a local natural drug market done probably this could possibly benefit people in Guatemala as well as people being treated with the natural drugs. I have been meaning to contact you Ken of list both with regard to address of Harriet and Efrem (?) and there work in Cuba, and such aspects as you mention in above paragraph (hope this will not be seen as an intrusion), with aim to promote Chinese medicine in Guatemala on both a more public health level and privet sector.

 

Ken:

 

With the twofold push for R & D andestablishment of a new baseline ofquality control the Chinese aimI believe to create a sound foundationfrom which they can launch near futureinitiatives to capture a greater shareof the international trade in traditionalChinese medicines.

Marco:

 

This is very important since I do not yet know how but there must be ways of importing Chinese medicinal agents to Guatemala, which in turn will promote-increase treatment possibilities and promote Chinese medicine too.

 

Ken:

 

So I think it is worth everyone's timeto pay some attention to what's goingon over here, as it is likely to impacton everyone's future in one way or another.Marco:

 

yes, it can not be over emphasise...

 

Ken:

 

In fact, I find a good deal to beoptimistic about in the current pushes.But as always, all we can do is waitand see.

 

Marco:

 

Great, but there are things that can be done, that which you and your wife are doing via book writing and via the ACOM journal.

I understand that you are both hard press for time but it occurred to me that It would be good to see articles by your wife to less I am mistaking she is a doctor of Chinese medicine (sorry for not knowing her name).

 

Also articles about the very aspects you mention in your letter would be in my opinion paramount. And of course people on the list including my self needs to be well informed and act upon this, in a way another reason to learn medical Chinese, to be able to be more responsible as to what happens to the profession of Chinese medicine.

 

By the way the journal still has back issues since it started?

 

Ken:

 

As I believe Alon was pointing out,there is no lack of studies availalbewhich could be redone in Western clinics,and as I mentioned at the top of thispost, there is a mounting effort on thepart of some highly capable individualsto tackle the difficult issues relatedto the design and conduct of suchstudies so as to make them effectivein looking at what they purport tostudy and acceptable to Western scientificstandards.I urge and welcome input from anyoneon this topic.Marco:

 

From what it is worth I have made some preliminary comments, I think the topic is paramount and hope one day fairly soon to read the ACOM. Still the reflecting-questioning of Western scientific standards (and of course of Chinese medicine) can not be excluded since that debate really have not been tackled far enough (as far as I am aware).

 

Also did you have a chance in forward the opinion about Society of Acupuncture research (Steve Birch, Richard Hammerschlag

...)

 

That web site really is the most boring and uninspiring web site I thus far have come across, and considering it is such a vital-interesting topic...

 

Maybe they could create a internet course on the topic of research or via Herb Academy. I say internet because I do not want to be excluded...

 

Marco Bergh

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

, <yulong@m...> wrote:

>

 

>

> As I believe Alon was pointing out,

> there is no lack of studies availalbe

> which could be redone in Western clinics,

 

 

my point exactly. we should not be reinventing the wheel. we

should be making a better wheel.

 

[Guest guest]

As I believe Alon was pointing out,there is no lack of studies availalbewhich could be redone in Western clinics,and as I mentioned at the top of thispost, there is a mounting effort on thepart of some highly capable individualsto tackle the difficult issues relatedto the design and conduct of suchstudies so as to make them effectivein looking at what they purport tostudy and acceptable to Western scientificstandards.>>>That is the best news I have heard in a long time

Alon

[Guest guest]

Emperors did do one research project comparing efficacy between acupuncture=

and

herbs in treating menopausal women. I wasn't involved but the results as de=

scribed

by the supervisor were interesting.

doug

 

, " " <@h...> =

 

wrote:

> Let's take this into the DO mode.

>

>

>

>

> I think almost everyone on the list believes that research (properly

> done) (by us CMers) is worthwhile. I agree with Jim let's do it... I

> am curious what the hurdles are in the schools. At PCOM, and I assume

> other schools, we had one class in research design and stats. What is

> stopping schools from making one clinic shift set aside just for a

> research project. It would cost the schools nothing. Hell, they could

> even charge the students an extra $100, for research fees - JK...

> anyway, granted that at first the designs and procedures may be

> somewhat flawed, but that is where you learn. Eventually things would

> improve to a point where the results would mean something. This has

> to be the future, so why are the big schools doing this??? Let's write

> some proposals…

>

>

>

>

> Just curious…

>

>

>

>

> -

[Guest guest]

Jason, and All,

 

Yet again there emerges in our midst the

questionable approach of using terms that

remain incompletely and inadequately defined

to make them altogether useful.

 

I have spent three years working with folks

like Hammerschlag and Birch and their widening

circles of acupuncture researchers forwarding the

discussion concerning the design, conduct and

reporting of research into the subject.

 

Steve Birch has done an enormous amount of

work. I am not a researcher in this sense. My

research concerns more fundamental questions,

as well as my on going research in the clinic,

despite Todd's recent enthusiasm for invalidating

" us guys " as clinically irrelevant. I'll take that up

in a separate post.

 

But fighting tooth and nail over research before

we simply stop and take the time and do the work

that is entalied in defining and carrying out sound

research is pointless.

 

The gist of the work in which I've taken part

to advance this issue has been published and

is available for review by anyone who wishes

to check it out. As always, comments and

criticisms are welcome. As I've basically

played an editorial role in much of this work,

I may or may not be able to reply to detailed

inquiries related to the specifics of protocols

discussed. But I can certainly help anyone who

wants to be more involved in research discussions

get connected up, and I at least maintain the

illusion that working to advance the discussion

is working towards achieving some sort of

result vis-a-vis research.

 

I am not opposed to research.

 

I do not believe that Paul Unschuld is opposed

to research.

 

My post on Paul's comments about statistics

was not meant to be an assault on research.

Those who read it that way read it wrong and

if you care about that, just go back and read it

again.

 

But what is research in this field going to be?

 

Everyone who thinks they know the answer should

make it available to the rest of us and stop

letting us wait to see the light.

 

In general, I'd have to say that the task of

coming up with definitions and guidelines that

not only sound and otherwise seem satisfactory

but that actually result in useful research information

based on...hold onto your valuables...authentic

Chinese medical approaches remains quite a

daunting one.

 

So here we are again at the same confounding

question.

 

What is Chinese medicine?

 

Who is going to tell us what it is?

 

And when he or she does, how will we go about

determining that it either is or isn't accurate?

 

Don't you have to know what you are researching

even before you design a protocol for your research?

 

When Unschuld started to research traditional Chinese

medicine in 1969...and that's why I don't think he's

opposed to research in the field since he's been engaged

in it for more than thirty years...not clinical research

but research into the residues left behind by 2,000

years of clinical actions and the contemplations left

behind by those who cared enough to write them down...

 

but when Paul started, there was no methodology;

in fact there was no discipline. He made it up as he

went, guided as he often points out, by the insightful

work of his wife, Ulricke on the ben cao literature.

And if anyone is really serious about research

they had better come to terms with Unschuld's work.

 

Even the Chinese recognize this terrible truth and

have invited Paul to join them in their highest level

planning sessions to make decisions that will guide

research in the PRC for the next ten years.

 

And if you don't think that will impact on your

clinical practice, just wait and see.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

At 3:27 PM +0000 11/14/03, kenrose2008 wrote:

>I have spent three years working with folks

>like Hammerschlag and Birch and their widening

>circles of acupuncture researchers forwarding the

>discussion concerning the design, conduct and

>reporting of research into the subject.

>

>Steve Birch has done an enormous amount of

>work. I am not a researcher in this sense.

--

Ken,

 

Can you point us to any articles by these authors that discuss the

issues raised by research into CM? especially anything available

on-line would be most helpful.

 

I've looked at the web-site for the Society for Acupuncture Research,

and they do not have any articles available for download, as far as I

could tell. I notice that the annual SAR meeting is this weekend, in

Boston, and that the program includes a short presentation by Beth

Yohalem entitled " Biomedical to Traditional (TCM)

Research Methodology: Bridging the Gap " , followed by a panel

discussion, and at least one research presentation on herbs. The

keynote speaker is Ted Kaptchuk.

 

Rory

--

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Rory

 

You could check out the following site about " Standards for reporting

interventions in controlled trials of acupuncture: the STRICTA

recommendations. " http://www.ftcm.org.uk/stricta_article.htm . Maybe

this helps you a bit further.

 

Alwin

 

 

--- Rory Kerr wrote:

> Can you point us to any articles by these authors that discuss the

> issues raised by research into CM? especially anything available

> on-line would be most helpful.

---------------

[Guest guest]

Hi Rory

 

Here are two articles from Steven Birch:

- " Proposed standards of acupuncture treatment for clinical studies

(Teil 1) G. Stux, S. Birch "

http://www.akupunktur-aktuell.de/fb0142_1.htm

- Proposed standards of acupuncture treatment for clinical studies (

Teil 2) G. Stux, S. Birch

http://www.akupunktur-aktuell.de/fb0144_1.htm

 

And here are at least some abstracts from the SAR Symposium in

Mineapolis and papers about clinical studies

http://www.akupunktur-aktuell.de/contents.htm

 

They are all in English

 

Best wishes

Alwin

 

 

--- Rory Kerr wrote:

> Can you point us to any articles by these authors that discuss the

> issues raised by research into CM? especially anything available

> on-line would be most helpful.

>

> I've looked at the web-site for the Society for Acupuncture

Research,

> and they do not have any articles available for download, as far as

I

> could tell.

-------------------->

[Guest guest]

Rory,

 

The theme of design, conduct and reporting

of clinical studies in acupuncture and

Oriental medicine has been constantly

featured in CAOM since I became editor

three years ago. You can obtain an entire

set of back issues from the publisher.

 

Elsevier is working on making all of

their publications available online,

but now that CAOM will cease publication,

I doubt it will ever make it.

 

It's worth noting that the journal has gone

defunct largely due to lack of an interested

readership. I'm not blaming the readers

for my own failings as editor nor for

the apparently unavoidable difficulties

of working on a tiny project in the context

of the worlds largest medical publisher.

 

But I think that the lack of interest issues

pertain to our current discussions.

 

Ken

 

, Rory Kerr <

rory.kerr@w...> wrote:

> At 3:27 PM +0000 11/14/03, kenrose2008 wrote:

> >I have spent three years working with folks

> >like Hammerschlag and Birch and their widening

> >circles of acupuncture researchers forwarding the

> >discussion concerning the design, conduct and

> >reporting of research into the subject.

> >

> >Steve Birch has done an enormous amount of

> >work. I am not a researcher in this sense.

> --

> Ken,

>

> Can you point us to any articles by these authors that discuss

the

> issues raised by research into CM? especially anything

available

> on-line would be most helpful.

>

> I've looked at the web-site for the Society for Acupuncture

Research,

> and they do not have any articles available for download, as far

as I

> could tell. I notice that the annual SAR meeting is this

weekend, in

> Boston, and that the program includes a short presentation by

Beth

> Yohalem entitled " Biomedical to Traditional

(TCM)

> Research Methodology: Bridging the Gap " , followed by a panel

> discussion, and at least one research presentation on herbs.

The

> keynote speaker is Ted Kaptchuk.

>

> Rory

> --

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Alwin, Rory, and All,

 

The STRICTA document is a good example

of the kind of work that has gone into this

question.

 

Although my name is on it as a co-author,

this was a convenience of adoption of

the concepts in that the original document

was published simultaneously in several

places so that it could serve as a stimulus

to advance discussion of the topic throught

the various professions that have now become

interested and involved in Chinese medical

research. I did not actually write the document

or contribute to its contents. As I said earlier,

my main participation in the substance of

the research issues per se has been in

the way of providing editorial input and

opportunities.

 

I do contribute to the substance of discussions

with various of the STRICTA authors in

terms of the impact of language and

transmission issues on the design criteria

for studies in the field.

 

 

 

Ken

 

, " Alwin van

Egmond " <@v...> wrote:

> Hi Rory

>

> You could check out the following site about " Standards for

reporting

> interventions in controlled trials of acupuncture: the STRICTA

> recommendations. " http://www.ftcm.org.uk/stricta_article.htm .

Maybe

> this helps you a bit further.

>

> Alwin

>

>

> --- Rory Kerr wrote:

> > Can you point us to any articles by these authors that

discuss the

> > issues raised by research into CM? especially anything

available

> > on-line would be most helpful.

> ---------------

[Guest guest]

, " Alwin van Egmond " wrote:

> And here are at least some abstracts from the SAR Symposium in

> Mineapolis and papers about clinical studies

> http://www.akupunktur-aktuell.de/contents.htm

>

> They are all in English

 

 

 

 

 

 

Alwin:

 

Thanks for posting these.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Dear Ken,

 

I been meaning to write about that sorry will write of line...

 

I thought the able part was the complication...

 

And hope to see you and Ann soonish:-)

 

Marco

 

> Ken

>

> PS. I remain ready willing and able to

> come to Guatemala and have a look around

> to see what sort of help I might be

> able to provide. I thought I was waiting

> for some word from you.

[Guest guest]

I think I'll have a look. Been hearing a lot about Christopher Reeve

lately, he was just in Israel showing his support for homicide bombing

victims of paralysis.

 

 

On Nov 15, 2003, at 10:31 AM, kenrose2008 wrote:

 

>

> In the context of our recent discussions

> about research, there is an interesting

> piece in the Nov. 10 issue of The New Yorker

> by Jerome Groopman entitled The Reeve Effect.

[Guest guest]

Being in Guatemala I beginning to get sincerely vexed at the social and

economical injustice and really a lot of CM and TEAM will be pretty useless less

other spiritual yes spiritual changes come about...

 

Anyway it is probably not consider part of Chinese medicine domain...

 

Marco

 

Hey Marco,

 

I for one would like to hear more about what you mean by the above. If you feel

this is not a good topic for CHA, please write about it to me or to a few of us

who you feel would be able to relate. I'm very interested in what you might

have to say.

 

Emmanuel Segmen

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Friends,

 

I have recently got to know about a very interesting Medical

Conference which fully take place ONLINE. It's called IOMC 2009.

 

http://iomc.ioksp.com/

 

SO I am actually looking for a research partner. If you are interested

to do a mutual collaboration with me and submit a paper together in

one of the conference themes (http://iomc.ioksp.com/themes.htm),

please drop me a line.

 

By the way, you may also want to attend this FIRST ever

completely-held Online conference, if you are interested.

 

Bests,

Koochooloo