accupressure

[Guest guest]

Hi Bill,

 

My experiences is that acupressure is at least as effective as

acupuncture if not more so, depending upon the approach that the

acuppressurist has adopted. The more the acuppressurist " customizes "

the treatment based upon the client's " blockages " the better the

results. However, an even better approach is the full bodywork

appraoch which will find the blockages throughout the body and

" eliminate " them in a manner that you are suggesting. The approach

that I have addopted is to " move " the toxins (blockages) from the

inside to the outside - that is the path of elimination should be

through the extremities or through the natural waste elimination

systems. If the treatment is working, you will notice that the toxins

are being eliminated through these natural pathways.

 

I do not think makes much of a difference whether you use Tuina/Amma,

Shiatus, Thai Massage or whatever. However, I do think that better and

faster results are perceived if the bodywork is " vigorous " (e.g. deep

and combined with Gua Sha and Cupping) and as a bonus it would be

great to combine it with Qigong treatment as I outlined in a previous

message under the title of Tom Tam Healing. It is a very simple and

straighforward model. That is, find the blockages (toxins) and move

them out of the body.

 

Good luck!

 

Regards,

Rich

 

Chinese Medicine , " Bill Cunningham "

<billc26@c...> wrote:

> Can as much successful treatment of disease via accupressure be

> accomplished as with accupuncture? I have a severe anxiety disorder

I would

> like to get rid of and I have a feeling it has to do with poor

elimination

> of toxins. Dirty blood as some call it.

>

> Bill

[Guest guest]

Bill,

 

There are some who will dispute accupressure being as effective as

accupuncture, and in some instances it isn't. The advantage of

accupuncture over accupressure is that by using needles, it takes some

of the onus off of the practitioner to be really tuned in to what is

going on with the patient. It is easier to treat someone when you are

having an off day with needles, than with accupressure.

 

I have studied both, and in my own practice I use accupressure. This

may change in the future as I continue my studies in accupuncture, but

for how I like to work, it fits well for me.

 

For me to be really effective, I have to be able to 'tune in' to what

is going on inside the patient. You learn to really feel their Qi, and

how to work with your own to aid them in their healing. My style of

work blends TCM with Western psychotherapeutic techniques. I come from

the perspective that we must treat the body, mind and spirit. Traumas

to any one of these aspects, will manifest in the others.

 

I also work with animals (mostly dogs), and find that they respond so

much faster to accupressure than with needles. You also don't have to

keep them as still. In fact, I find that they settle well into an

accupressure session, as it feels more natural to them. The touch and

ongoing contact is part of their relationship with us, and so to be

worked with in this way fits within that relationship.

 

A somewhat long answer to your question. As the moderator, I can get

away with this If you are interested in putting together a

treatment for a severe anxiety disorder, I would like to offer myself

as a resource.

 

Take care,

 

Mark Milotay

 

Chinese Medicine , " Bill Cunningham "

<billc26@c...> wrote:

> Can as much successful treatment of disease via accupressure be

> accomplished as with accupuncture? I have a severe anxiety disorder

I would like to get rid of and I have a feeling it has to do with poor

elimination > of toxins. Dirty blood as some call it.

> Bill

[Guest guest]

If you are interested in putting together a

> treatment for a severe anxiety disorder, I would like to offer myself

> as a resource.

>

> Take care,

>

> Mark Milotay

 

I have studied hippocratic medicine in addition to the chinese and other

herbs and homeopathy. I believe the body can rid itself of anything if you

don't poison it to the point where it can't do it's job, or you don't give

it what it needs to rid its self of the problem. I don't know where alot of

the acupuncture/pressure points are along the meridians or how to deal with

the chakras. How would that be in Taoism cauldrons or tan tein. Nor how to

work with the jen mo and its opposite channel. The thrusting channels.

 

How does one person, or even two, apply pressure to several or many

different points at the same time?

 

Bill

[Guest guest]

Hi Bill,

 

>I believe the body can rid itself of anything if you

> don't poison it to the point where it can't do it's job, or you

don't give

> it what it needs to rid its self of the problem.

 

Yes, this is the basic theory underlying the tuina/amma model that I

have adopted.

 

I don't know where alot of

> the acupuncture/pressure points are along the meridians or how to

deal with

> the chakras.

 

There are some very good, easy to understand Shiatsu and Amma books

that I can recommend which explain these concepts in terms of

bodywork. A couple of excellent ones would be:

 

Shiatsu Theory and Practice by Beresford-Cooke

Amma Therapy by Sohn

 

There are many ways to do self-bodywork. Yoga excercises basically

stretch all of the meridians as well as the muscular and skeletal

systems. They also loosen joints. Qigong excercies do the same. A

basic ancient set called the " Eight Brocades " is simple enough to

learn. You can also do self-bodywork where you vigorously work the

whole body - again muscles, meridians, joints etc. I spend lots of

time during the day stretching and massaging my body. Where I find

pain or " dead spots " , I know there is stagnation so I apply extra

" rubbing " in that area. One thing. I always move energy and blood from

the middle of my body out towards the extremities - and I do lots of

" rotations " on my joints since the joints are a primary area of blockage.

 

 

> How would that be in Taoism cauldrons or tan tein.

 

It is all essentially the same - yoga, chinese health techniques, etc.

Dantiens and chakras relate to the " major energy centers " . Lots of

good breathing and bodywork exercises in each tradition.

 

>Nor how to work with the jen mo and its opposite channel. The

thrusting channels.

 

I tend not to be concerned to much with particulars. I treat my body

like I treat the plumbing in my house. I keep everything free an

clear. Even if the main pipes are clear, the small ones can still

cause havoc as I am often reminded everytime my toilet gets stuck. Of

course, I make sure the main ones are clear also. I just clean out

everything, everywhere. It is not too much effort. Just good

stretches, body rotations everyday. I also do taiji and qigong but

those are sort of bonus exercises to keep me in really good health.

>

> How does one person, or even two, apply pressure to several or many

> different points at the same time?

 

Basically, the well-known yoga and qigong exercises do this. I also

use my arms and hands to vigorously work my body when I feel some

stagnation - always in the direction of the extremities.

>

Hope this helps! It always pays to observer lots of practitioners and

students and pick up what works best for you.

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

I think this is purely subjective opinion. On what basis do you come

to your conclusion? Each modality has its benefits and drawbacks, but

I'd like to see an 'acupressurist' apply strong pressure to several

points at the same time without driving the patient through the roof

(or without growing extra arms)! If 'acupressure' could produce the

same clinical effects as acupuncture/moxa, I doubt the ancient Chinese

would have put so much energy into developing the system of

acumoxatherapy, or that it would have survived until the present era.

 

In China and Japan, bodywork and acupuncture each have their

distinctive place in the healthcare system.

 

When we talk about such things as 'moving toxins', I cannot fathom what

relationship this has to any Chinese (or Japanese, Korean, etc.)

medical source. What do you mean by this?

 

 

On Sep 6, 2004, at 4:09 PM, Rich wrote:

 

>

> My experiences is that acupressure is at least as effective as

> acupuncture if not more so, depending upon the approach that the

> acuppressurist has adopted. The more the acuppressurist " customizes "

> the treatment based upon the client's " blockages " the better the

> results. However, an even better approach is the full bodywork

> appraoch which will find the blockages throughout the body and

> " eliminate " them in a manner that you are suggesting. The approach

> that I have addopted is to " move " the toxins (blockages) from the

> inside to the outside - that is the path of elimination should be

> through the extremities or through the natural waste elimination

> systems. If the treatment is working, you will notice that the toxins

> are being eliminated through these natural pathways.

>

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

[Guest guest]

Dear Mr. Rosenberg,

 

Chinese Medicine , " "

<zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> I think this is purely subjective opinion.

 

Yes, this is a subjective experience based upon my experiences and

that of my family and friends who no longer use acupuncture because

they have found direct manipulation using touch and qigong more

effective. My recommendation to others who are seeking treatment is to

try different modalities, as I have done, and see what works best for

them. Some may prefer acupunture others may prefer acupressure. Some

may prefer WM. I think it is up to the individual to choose what they

prefer, which is why in China there are seperate branches for Tuina,

Qigong, and Acupuncture as well as WM.

 

As for toxins - this is the model that I use based upon what I have

learned. Some call it " cold qi " or " blockages " . It is all the same.

The notion is to remove these " obstructions " , so that qi can move

freely, and thereby naturally maintain itself in a healthy state. The

natural order of life is health. The Su Wen speaks amply about this in

many chapters referring to obstructions at the physical, energetic,

mental, and spiritual levels, e.g.:

 

" When one is completely from from wishes, ambitions and distracting

thoughts, indifferent to fame and gain, the true energy will come in

the wake of it. When one concentrates his spirit internally and keeps

a sound mind, how can any illness occur? "

 

Personally, I am currently working on the " fame and gain " (excessive

Ego) thing. A good lifetime challenge. I'm not doing too badly. I have

better personal relationships and find myself my calmer lately. I

don't get nearly as upset or angry over things any more. This I

believe is the truest spirit of . That is for us to

recognize our own challenges (obstacles) in our lives and to transform

them so that our health may flourish.

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

> When we talk about such things as 'moving toxins', I cannot fathom what

> relationship this has to any Chinese (or Japanese, Korean, etc.)

> medical source

 

In every ancient medical system I've come across eliminating toxins is

very important. I don't know about removing toxins with acupuncture (I

suppose one could) but it's done with herbs. Herbs for wind, wood, earth and

so on. As well as those that cleanse the blood. The idea of blood letting in

europe was out of control and not the way to clean blood. Nor was it that I

know of used by the likes of Hippocrates or Galen, but herbs help the body

and its organs do this. The same in asia.

 

Toh Dah Z'ev

 

Bill

[Guest guest]

Thank you, Bill.

 

While ancient medical systems do have such concepts, each system has a

precise language and structure that defines what each term means in a

particular context. For example, while 'detoxing the liver' is a

common concept in some Western naturopathic approaches, no such concept

appears in Chinese medicine. We need to be clear about what terms

mean, instead of glossing them over to generalize ourselves into loss

of precision.

 

 

On Sep 9, 2004, at 5:50 AM, Bill Cunningham wrote:

>

> In every ancient medical system I've come across eliminating

> toxins is

> very important. I don't know about removing toxins with acupuncture (I

> suppose one could) but it's done with herbs. Herbs for wind, wood,

> earth and

> so on. As well as those that cleanse the blood. The idea of blood

> letting in

> europe was out of control and not the way to clean blood. Nor was it

> that I

> know of used by the likes of Hippocrates or Galen, but herbs help the

> body

> and its organs do this. The same in asia.

>

> Toh Dah Z'ev

>

> Bill

>

[Guest guest]

I have to agree with Zev. This was the point I was trying to deliver in a

few posts the other day. We need to use standardised TCM terminology within

our practice and within this group in order to make sure we are in fact,

discussing the same ideas. When we start to mix other forms of healthcare,

whether allopathic, tuina, qigong, etc, we lose ourselves in the mist of

concepts.

 

Kind regards

 

Attilio

 

 

[zrosenbe]

09 September 2004 15:57

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: accupressure

 

 

Rich,

There is a major problem in communicating Chinese medical concepts

in English when no direct relationship to the original Chinese

terminology is established. Du/toxin is used in a very specific way in

Chinese medicine, to indicate either environmental or insect poisons,

or the byproduct of heat in the body with pain, swelling, inflammation

and/or discharge. The term toxin is usually associated with warm

diseases, rarely if ever with cold. The blockages you are talking

about fall into the realm of, possibly, qi zhi/qi stagnation, xue

yu/blood stasis, or tan liu jing luo/phlegm lodged in the channels.

When language is used in such an imprecise manner, whether it is the

fault of teacher or student, the original conception is 'lost in

translation'. We then superimpose biomedical or alternative medical

concepts which may have nothing to do with the original teaching in

Chinese.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Mr. Rosenberg,

 

>Which translation do

> you use, and what translation scheme or glossary is consulted?

>

 

I have the translations by Ni and Wu.

 

Throughout my study of Chinese/Asian culture as well as my studies in

many other fields, I have always found these similarities:

 

1) It is very difficult, if not impossible, to relate one's " ideas "

through language.

 

2) A person reading or hearing another person's ideas through language

interprets these " words " through their own experiences, that is

subjectively what they can relate through.

 

3) A person, who in turn tries to relate concepts and ideas to another

person is going to further lose meaning through re-interpretation.

 

This problem is particularly acute between cross-cultural translations

that occupy entirely different conceptual frameworks (space, time,

thought). In other words, I have no idea what someone else really

means, even if they are standing in front of me trying to teach me

something. A frequent occurrence in any classroom where students

walkaway with entirely different ideas of what a teacher just said.

How could I possible " know " what someone else means, " with precision "

who is living two thousands away or two thousands years ago.

 

You have your conceptual framework and I have mine. I see the

obstructions, toxins, stagnation, blockages, as meaning the same

thing. Just like everything is essentially qi and qi comes from

movement of yin/yang, which in turn comes from the Dao.

 

The Dao De Jing suggests:

 

Dao give birth one;

one gives birth to two;

two gives birth to three;

three gives birth to ten thousand things (everything).

 

Now is the Dao De Jing suggesting ten thousand things or everything? I

have seen many, many interpretations. What the author originally meant

will always be clouded in " mystery " :

 

The tao that can be said is not the everlasting Tao.

If a name can be named, it is not the everlasting Name.

That which has no name is the origin of heaven and earh.

That which has a name is the Mother of all things.

Thus, if always without desire, one can observe indescribable marvels;

If always desirous, one sees merest traces.

Those two come from the same source but are differently named.

Both are called Mysterious.

The mystery of the Mysterious is the gateway to all indescribable marvels.

 

A commentary on the inherent limitations of language? A commentary on

the source of all things? A suggestion on how to gain knowledge? An

admonition of " desire " ? A glorification of all that surrounds us? Some

may find great precison in these words - others may find exactly the

opposite. I guess it is why each of us are more than One.

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

Hi Attilio,

 

> I have to agree with Zev. This was the point I was trying to deliver

in a

> few posts the other day. We need to use standardised TCM terminology

within

> our practice and within this group in order to make sure we are in fact,

> discussing the same ideas.

 

This is a very subjective observation on my part. Wherever I have

witnessed " precision " , I have also witnessed " stagnation " (stiffness).

Observe anyone trying to copy something " precisely " . This is what I

mean. It is interesting.

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

I look for a telltale aberration on a channel and cleverly palpating it,

place a

needle tip on it, in varying angles, to release an abdominal tightness, or a

release

a pulse stricture.

 

If there is an insertion, it could be less than at .1 mm in depth.

 

End result: pulses are harmonized, abdominal signs stabilized, symptoms

ameliorated..

 

Question 1. What form of acupuncture am I practicing? I am unsure because I

am

more grounded in 5 E and horary protocol. Is this Toyo Hari or Meridian Rx?

 

Question 2. What minimal stimulus of a physical nature does it finally take

to release a qi

blockage?

 

Question 3. Releasing qi, is that tantamount to harmonizing zang fu?

 

Guys and gals, help out please.

 

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states.

[Guest guest]

On Sep 9, 2004, at 8:27 AM, Rich wrote:

 

> You have your conceptual framework and I have mine. I see the

> obstructions, toxins, stagnation, blockages, as meaning the same

> thing. Just like everything is essentially qi and qi comes from

> movement of yin/yang, which in turn comes from the Dao.

 

Except that I don't have my own 'conceptual framework' when it comes to

communicating Chinese medicine. I use the framework of the actual

profession in China and other Asian countries, and a small but growing

percentage in the West, recorded in dictionaries, glossaries, journals

and texts both in Chinese and English. Rich, a majority of folks on

this list are professional practitioners of Chinese medicine. This

primarily means herbal medicine and acupuncture, since there is no

specific licensure for dietetics, qi gong, tui na and other modalities

of Chinese medicine. TCM is a profession, with degrees, licensure,

protocols, and concepts and clinical realities need to be communicated

through words and language. To just self-define or over-simplify terms

is, in my opinion, a cop-out, and has no meaning beyond one's

self-satisfaction. If we want to be part of the framework of Chinese

medicine in the here and now, we need to take the responsibility of

communicating effectively, and explain what it is we mean.

 

Over-simplification of terms, as you recommend, leads to a loss of

nuance, complexity and detail in understanding human health and

illness. It reduces the clarity and subtlety of Chinese medicine to a

generalized pastiche, with a subsequent reduction in ability to treat

our patients.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Dr. Keikobad,

 

Chinese Medicine , " homi kaikobad "

<aryaone@e...> wrote:

> I look for a telltale aberration on a channel and cleverly palpating

>it, place a needle tip on it, in varying angles, to release an

>abdominal tightness, or a release a pulse stricture.

 

I do something similar when I do bodywork. I am not very experienced

in it yet, but I am beginning to understand the relatinship of the

" hara " (or lower, middle burner response) to the release of

" blockages " - or tightness and stricture as you describe it. I have

heard of other acupuncturists who use similar modalities, but I think

it is more popular among Japanese trained acupunturists. Correct me

please if I am mistaken.

>

> If there is an insertion, it could be less than at .1 mm in depth.

> End result: pulses are harmonized, abdominal signs stabilized,

>symptoms ameliorated..

 

Yes, I have experienced similar results.

>

> Question 1. What form of acupuncture am I practicing? I am unsure

because I am more grounded in 5 E and horary protocol. Is this Toyo

Hari or Meridian Rx?

 

I don't know. But is sounds pretty interesting and a form that would

be guess has very good results. :-)

>

> Question 2. What minimal stimulus of a physical nature does it

finally take to release a qi blockage?

 

Whatever it takes for the Mind to " change its mind " . :-) I have found

that everyone is different - at least when it comes to bodywork. Or

maybe it is me?

>

> Question 3. Releasing qi, is that tantamount to harmonizing zang fu?

 

For me it is " harmonizing " the " inside " and the " inside with the

" outside " so there is smooth qi flow between the " little body " and the

" big body " .

>

> Guys and gals, help out please.

 

I am sure I didn't help you out too much, but do I get points for

trying? :-)

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

Lotsa points.

Felt alone, don't now.

 

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states.

-

" Rich " <rfinkelstein

<Chinese Medicine >

Thursday, September 09, 2004 1:26 PM

Re: accupressure

 

 

> Dear Dr. Keikobad,

>

> Chinese Medicine , " homi kaikobad "

> <aryaone@e...> wrote:

> > I look for a telltale aberration on a channel and cleverly palpating

[Guest guest]

sir, if there is any treatment for heartblockages,diabities and

varicoseveins in accupressure,kindly reply