Now: CM's long past and long future. Zhong Ri, part 4, case study

[Guest guest]

Hi Emmanuel,

 

Thanks for your wonderful input as ever. Yes, I also heard of a

specialised department at Shanghai that concentrate on the

pharmacological interactions that occur when WM and TCM are taken

together. I feel this is the real crux of the matter with regards to

our integration into popular healthcare. I saw a patient on the

hospital ward that the other day, that for me was a classic case of

WM and TCM being used together worsening the patient's condition.

Her original complaint was palpitations, shaking of the hands and a

lack of strength. She received WM and TCM treatment and then

developed a red rash all over her skin. Could this be a reaction as

all the medicine goes through first past metabolism in the liver?

She seems very distressed, depressed and had other liver symptoms.

Anyway, below is the case file. Its still a little raw, have only

just taken it off my hand notes and deciphered my energetic

handwriting.

 

Female 55

 

Main complaint: palpitations, shaking of the hands and no strength

in the body.

 

Symptoms: all symptoms started in December 2003 when she took WM and

TCM together. She took Dan Shen to help but it didn't work. She has

no insomnia but has a rash that comes in patches and is itchy. Itchy

skin is highly uncomfortable. She cannot sleep well because of the

itchy. Has notable central eye brow creases. Has been on HRT for 7

years. Sweats at night and in the day but less. After sweating the

rash starts. Also suffers from throat swelling and tonsillitis.

Appetite is fine, but does not want to eat. Bowel movements are

twice a day and are soft to slightly loose. No nausea. Drinks a lot

of water. Feels hot. Urinates once at night. Lost 6 kg since

December 2003. Urine not dark in colour. Palpitations; 126 BPM. T3

and T4 problems – hyperthyroidism.

 

T: dull tongue, slightly purple with a white greasy coating.

P: small and rapid.

 

Has a low WBC due to hyperthyroidism medication. Has dyspnoea on

movement. Not happy, not angry feels depressed. No goitre. Since she

has no goitre or protruding eyes she has acute hyperthyroidism.

 

3 methods to treat:

 

1. Take drugs which reduces the WBC and lead to easy infection

2. Take radiated iodine which will destroy the thyroid cells.

3. Have surgery, which may remove too much or too little.

 

Has a low WBC, so not allowed to take any medication. Surgery can

also cause hyperthyroidism:

 

1. cut enough – no problem

2. too much – hypothyroidism

3. not enough – hyperthyroidism, will be on thyroxin for the

rest of her life. Its difficult for the patient to choice.

 

In TCM, the main point are:

 

1. Palpitations

2. hand shaking

3. Rashes

 

The rash comes and goes indicating Wind. Wind is afraid of heat and

causes dry mouth and thirst. Bowel movement is twice a day, more

towards Xie Xie.

 

Syndrome Differentiation: Qi deficiency, more Spleen and sweats a

lot.

 

She is Yin deficient which is due to the HRT treatment, menopause

and is worse at night. The low WBC is not considered as Blood

deficiency. The internal heat is from the liver qi stagnation and

having a low emotional level, which causes internal wind.

 

If she feels no phlegm in the throat and has loose stools then it is

damp. If she feels phlegm in the throat plus loose stools then it is

phlegm. In this case she has both phlegm and damp. Heat is the main

problem for her.

 

Treatment Strategy:

 

To treat the heat, don't use too bitter or cold herbs as they'll

damage the Yin. Try and go for formulas that eradicate Wind, soothe

the liver and don't damage the Yin.

 

Formula: Xiao Feng San and Xiao Luo Wan.

 

Prescription:

 

1. Fang Feng 5g, Jing Jie 5g, (both main herbs but reduce the

dosage) Bai Jiang Cao 15g, Chan Tui 10g,

2. Tong Cao 3g, Hua Shi 30g, Shang Gan Cao 5g, Yi Yi Ren 30g,

3. Shi Gao 30g, Zhi Mu 10g.

4. If still more thirst then don't use Shi Gao and Zhi Mu,

instead use Xuan Shen, Xiao Ku Cao and replace Yi Yi Ren with Chaun

Bai Mu.

5. Bie Jia 15-30g, Mu Li 15-30g

 

Fang Feng and Jing Jie uplift the LV, soothe the Liver and are

better to get rid of the LV Qi stag than Chai Hu.

 

Sheng Di Huang and Xuan Shen to cool the blood heat.

 

Attilio

 

 

" Emmanuel Segmen " <susegmen@i...> wrote:

> Hi Attilio,

>

> I'm so glad you are in China at a hospital to see for yourself

what's going on. I hope you make many English-speaking friends to

see also that some research happens on behalf of CM clinical

practice as well as agronomy research on herbs. Dr. Kang, where I

work here, gets a 25 kg box per month of clinical journals and reads

every evening after dinner. That's the life of a dedicated

clinician. He used to be the chief of TCM at the Shanghai Hospital

#1 for 16 years. Dr. Liu, my agronomist in Shandong, similarly

reads and tells us of a great deal of research in each province at

TCM colleges and universities as well as at agronomy PhD programs.

There's a kind of an agricultural university in Jilin Province with

PhD programs that look at herbs from each province. The candidates

are usually culled from each province and sent back to each province

to work with growers. Dr. Liang (Dr. Kang's wife) and my boss at

Asia Natural is guided to growers in different parts of China

through the graduate school classmates of our Shandong agronomist

Dr. Liu as well as our Lanzhou factory contacts.

>

> The bottom line is that you are right about money for research.

It's all about China catching up and competing with America and

Europe for authenticity in Western medicine. Rey Tequia I believe

correctly notes that the Chinese are fascinated by " scientism. " Dr.

Chiang (pres. of Min Tong Herbs) once noted something similar to

your thoughts below as far as integration catching up in the distant

future. As a biochemist relatively new to Chinese medical thought,

I asked Dr. Chiang how long he felt it would take Western science to

evaluate Chinese medicine. As a PhD in pharmacology from University

of Tokyo, I think he felt comfortable talking with me. On this

occasion he smiled one of his kind of dreamy smiles. He said it

took billions of people 3,000 years to come this far in CM. Why

would it take any shorter a period of time in Western science lab

hours? It struck me as a remarkably obvious answer to my

question. That conversation and many more like it over the past

two decades have given me an understanding of time with regard

to " integration " .

>

> Thanks, Attilio, for sharing your ongoing impressions.

>

> In gratitude,

> Emmanuel Segmen

>

>

>

> I was speaking to a doctor in Beijing and he stated the same

> problems. There's very little money being directed into TCM

research in China with the majority of it going to WM. I think China

as a whole, instead of concentrating on their own strengthens, are

trying to tackle the West head on at their own game. Hence the

advancement of WM research in China.

>

> Of course this is all swings and roundabouts. A balance will

come eventually with TCM and WM research and integration, but it

will take some years. Until then, secret formula, quality of herbs

and the Western powers blinded vision will play a major role in

TCM's future. Perhaps a fund should be set-up, run by TCM

associations, to support and fund the development of research into

TCM. The money could be raised by various methods, through

subscription, fund

> raising, sponsorship, etc.

>

> Attilio

[Guest guest]

Hi Attilio,

 

Welcome to Western clinical medicine. George Orwell could never have gotten

away with writing anything so over-the-top-comical and tragic as the patient

you've listed below. Maybe Kafka. This woman is so over-medicated with

hormones (HRT - 7 years!) and hyperthyroid medication to just mention two that

she qualifies as a toxic dump site. And she's only 55. I've seen patients on

five or six generations of medications to treat the side-effects of other

medications. Such people are often as old or older than 55 ... more often over

65. As a wimpy little 3rd year medical student I used to often ask myself ....

Where on earth is the living homeostasis underneath all of that pharmacology?

 

So now your patient has what WM docs call " functional " disease ... a garbage can

term for some realm of hypersensitivity from trying to maintain balance after so

many years of imbalance. From eczema to irritable bowel syndrome ... you can

expect to see so much of this until you abstract everything and start over.

That's not likely to happen on any hospital ward.

 

Sadly the Chinese medicine side has to treat the WM induced problems rather than

the patient's own homeostasis. In fact the CM treatment is allowing the WM

treatment to proceed. I can remember very well the level of frustration you

must be feeling. Take heart that you are living on the Chinese medicine side of

the equation.

 

Thanks for your great presentation.

 

Emmanuel Segmen

 

-

Chinese Medicine

Saturday, March 06, 2004 6:25 PM

Now: CM's long past and long future. Zhong Ri, part 4, case

study

 

 

Hi Emmanuel,

 

Thanks for your wonderful input as ever. Yes, I also heard of a

specialised department at Shanghai that concentrate on the

pharmacological interactions that occur when WM and TCM are taken

together. I feel this is the real crux of the matter with regards to

our integration into popular healthcare. I saw a patient on the

hospital ward that the other day, that for me was a classic case of

WM and TCM being used together worsening the patient's condition.

Her original complaint was palpitations, shaking of the hands and a

lack of strength. She received WM and TCM treatment and then

developed a red rash all over her skin. Could this be a reaction as

all the medicine goes through first past metabolism in the liver?

She seems very distressed, depressed and had other liver symptoms.

Anyway, below is the case file. Its still a little raw, have only

just taken it off my hand notes and deciphered my energetic

handwriting.

 

Female 55

 

Main complaint: palpitations, shaking of the hands and no strength

in the body.

 

Symptoms: all symptoms started in December 2003 when she took WM and

TCM together. She took Dan Shen to help but it didn't work. She has

no insomnia but has a rash that comes in patches and is itchy. Itchy

skin is highly uncomfortable. She cannot sleep well because of the

itchy. Has notable central eye brow creases. Has been on HRT for 7

years. Sweats at night and in the day but less. After sweating the

rash starts. Also suffers from throat swelling and tonsillitis.

Appetite is fine, but does not want to eat. Bowel movements are

twice a day and are soft to slightly loose. No nausea. Drinks a lot

of water. Feels hot. Urinates once at night. Lost 6 kg since

December 2003. Urine not dark in colour. Palpitations; 126 BPM. T3

and T4 problems - hyperthyroidism.

 

T: dull tongue, slightly purple with a white greasy coating.

P: small and rapid.

 

Has a low WBC due to hyperthyroidism medication. Has dyspnoea on

movement. Not happy, not angry feels depressed. No goitre. Since she

has no goitre or protruding eyes she has acute hyperthyroidism.

 

3 methods to treat:

 

1. Take drugs which reduces the WBC and lead to easy infection

2. Take radiated iodine which will destroy the thyroid cells.

3. Have surgery, which may remove too much or too little.

 

Has a low WBC, so not allowed to take any medication. Surgery can

also cause hyperthyroidism:

 

1. cut enough - no problem

2. too much - hypothyroidism

3. not enough - hyperthyroidism, will be on thyroxin for the

rest of her life. Its difficult for the patient to choice.

 

In TCM, the main point are:

 

1. Palpitations

2. hand shaking

3. Rashes

 

The rash comes and goes indicating Wind. Wind is afraid of heat and

causes dry mouth and thirst. Bowel movement is twice a day, more

towards Xie Xie.

 

Syndrome Differentiation: Qi deficiency, more Spleen and sweats a

lot.

 

She is Yin deficient which is due to the HRT treatment, menopause

and is worse at night. The low WBC is not considered as Blood

deficiency. The internal heat is from the liver qi stagnation and

having a low emotional level, which causes internal wind.

 

If she feels no phlegm in the throat and has loose stools then it is

damp. If she feels phlegm in the throat plus loose stools then it is

phlegm. In this case she has both phlegm and damp. Heat is the main

problem for her.

 

Treatment Strategy:

 

To treat the heat, don't use too bitter or cold herbs as they'll

damage the Yin. Try and go for formulas that eradicate Wind, soothe

the liver and don't damage the Yin.

 

Formula: Xiao Feng San and Xiao Luo Wan.

 

Prescription:

 

1. Fang Feng 5g, Jing Jie 5g, (both main herbs but reduce the

dosage) Bai Jiang Cao 15g, Chan Tui 10g,

2. Tong Cao 3g, Hua Shi 30g, Shang Gan Cao 5g, Yi Yi Ren 30g,

3. Shi Gao 30g, Zhi Mu 10g.

4. If still more thirst then don't use Shi Gao and Zhi Mu,

instead use Xuan Shen, Xiao Ku Cao and replace Yi Yi Ren with Chaun

Bai Mu.

5. Bie Jia 15-30g, Mu Li 15-30g

 

Fang Feng and Jing Jie uplift the LV, soothe the Liver and are

better to get rid of the LV Qi stag than Chai Hu.

 

Sheng Di Huang and Xuan Shen to cool the blood heat.

 

Attilio

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Attilo dare I ask for a date pof birth?

salvador

 

________

>Hi Emmanuel,

>

>Thanks for your wonderful input as ever. Yes, I also heard of a

>specialised department at Shanghai that concentrate on the

>pharmacological interactions that occur when WM and TCM are taken

>together. I feel this is the real crux of the matter with regards to

>our integration into popular healthcare. I saw a patient on the

>hospital ward that the other day, that for me was a classic case of

>WM and TCM being used together worsening the patient's condition.

>Her original complaint was palpitations, shaking of the hands and a

>lack of strength. She received WM and TCM treatment and then

>developed a red rash all over her skin. Could this be a reaction as

>all the medicine goes through first past metabolism in the liver?

>She seems very distressed, depressed and had other liver symptoms.

>Anyway, below is the case file. Its still a little raw, have only

>just taken it off my hand notes and deciphered my energetic

>handwriting.

 

>Female 55

>

>Main complaint: palpitations, shaking of the hands and no strength

>in the body.

>

>Symptoms: all symptoms started in December 2003 when she took WM and

>TCM together. She took Dan Shen to help but it didn't work. She has

>no insomnia but has a rash that comes in patches and is itchy. Itchy

>skin is highly uncomfortable. She cannot sleep well because of the

>itchy. Has notable central eye brow creases. Has been on HRT for 7

>years. Sweats at night and in the day but less. After sweating the

>rash starts. Also suffers from throat swelling and tonsillitis.

>Appetite is fine, but does not want to eat. Bowel movements are

>twice a day and are soft to slightly loose. No nausea. Drinks a lot

>of water. Feels hot. Urinates once at night. Lost 6 kg since

>December 2003. Urine not dark in colour. Palpitations; 126 BPM. T3

>and T4 problems – hyperthyroidism.

>

>T: dull tongue, slightly purple with a white greasy coating.

>P: small and rapid.

>

>Has a low WBC due to hyperthyroidism medication. Has dyspnoea on

>movement. Not happy, not angry feels depressed. No goitre. Since she

>has no goitre or protruding eyes she has acute hyperthyroidism.

>

>3 methods to treat:

>

>1. Take drugs which reduces the WBC and lead to easy infection

>2. Take radiated iodine which will destroy the thyroid cells.

>3. Have surgery, which may remove too much or too little.

>

>Has a low WBC, so not allowed to take any medication. Surgery can

>also cause hyperthyroidism:

>

>1. cut enough – no problem

>2. too much – hypothyroidism

>3. not enough – hyperthyroidism, will be on thyroxin for the

>rest of her life. Its difficult for the patient to choice.

>

>In TCM, the main point are:

>

>1. Palpitations

>2. hand shaking

>3. Rashes

>

>The rash comes and goes indicating Wind. Wind is afraid of heat and

>causes dry mouth and thirst. Bowel movement is twice a day, more

>towards Xie Xie.

>

>Syndrome Differentiation: Qi deficiency, more Spleen and sweats a

>lot.

>

>She is Yin deficient which is due to the HRT treatment, menopause

>and is worse at night. The low WBC is not considered as Blood

>deficiency. The internal heat is from the liver qi stagnation and

>having a low emotional level, which causes internal wind.

>

>If she feels no phlegm in the throat and has loose stools then it is

>damp. If she feels phlegm in the throat plus loose stools then it is

>phlegm. In this case she has both phlegm and damp. Heat is the main

>problem for her.

>

>Treatment Strategy:

>

>To treat the heat, don't use too bitter or cold herbs as they'll

>damage the Yin. Try and go for formulas that eradicate Wind, soothe

>the liver and don't damage the Yin.

>

>Formula: Xiao Feng San and Xiao Luo Wan.

>

>Prescription:

>

>1. Fang Feng 5g, Jing Jie 5g, (both main herbs but reduce the

>dosage) Bai Jiang Cao 15g, Chan Tui 10g,

>2. Tong Cao 3g, Hua Shi 30g, Shang Gan Cao 5g, Yi Yi Ren 30g,

>3. Shi Gao 30g, Zhi Mu 10g.

>4. If still more thirst then don't use Shi Gao and Zhi Mu,

>instead use Xuan Shen, Xiao Ku Cao and replace Yi Yi Ren with Chaun

>Bai Mu.

>5. Bie Jia 15-30g, Mu Li 15-30g

>

>Fang Feng and Jing Jie uplift the LV, soothe the Liver and are

>better to get rid of the LV Qi stag than Chai Hu.

>

>Sheng Di Huang and Xuan Shen to cool the blood heat.

>

>Attilio

>

>

> " Emmanuel Segmen " <susegmen@i...> wrote:

> > Hi Attilio,

> >

> > I'm so glad you are in China at a hospital to see for yourself

>what's going on. I hope you make many English-speaking friends to

>see also that some research happens on behalf of CM clinical

>practice as well as agronomy research on herbs. Dr. Kang, where I

>work here, gets a 25 kg box per month of clinical journals and reads

>every evening after dinner. That's the life of a dedicated

>clinician. He used to be the chief of TCM at the Shanghai Hospital

>#1 for 16 years. Dr. Liu, my agronomist in Shandong, similarly

>reads and tells us of a great deal of research in each province at

>TCM colleges and universities as well as at agronomy PhD programs.

>There's a kind of an agricultural university in Jilin Province with

>PhD programs that look at herbs from each province. The candidates

>are usually culled from each province and sent back to each province

>to work with growers. Dr. Liang (Dr. Kang's wife) and my boss at

>Asia Natural is guided to growers in different parts of China

>through the graduate school classmates of our Shandong agronomist

>Dr. Liu as well as our Lanzhou factory contacts.

> >

> > The bottom line is that you are right about money for research.

>It's all about China catching up and competing with America and

>Europe for authenticity in Western medicine. Rey Tequia I believe

>correctly notes that the Chinese are fascinated by " scientism. " Dr.

>Chiang (pres. of Min Tong Herbs) once noted something similar to

>your thoughts below as far as integration catching up in the distant

>future. As a biochemist relatively new to Chinese medical thought,

>I asked Dr. Chiang how long he felt it would take Western science to

>evaluate Chinese medicine. As a PhD in pharmacology from University

>of Tokyo, I think he felt comfortable talking with me. On this

>occasion he smiled one of his kind of dreamy smiles. He said it

>took billions of people 3,000 years to come this far in CM. Why

>would it take any shorter a period of time in Western science lab

>hours? It struck me as a remarkably obvious answer to my

>question. That conversation and many more like it over the past

>two decades have given me an understanding of time with regard

>to " integration " .

> >

> > Thanks, Attilio, for sharing your ongoing impressions.

> >

> > In gratitude,

> > Emmanuel Segmen

> >

> >

> >

> > I was speaking to a doctor in Beijing and he stated the same

> > problems. There's very little money being directed into TCM

>research in China with the majority of it going to WM. I think China

>as a whole, instead of concentrating on their own strengthens, are

>trying to tackle the West head on at their own game. Hence the

>advancement of WM research in China.

> >

> > Of course this is all swings and roundabouts. A balance will

>come eventually with TCM and WM research and integration, but it

>will take some years. Until then, secret formula, quality of herbs

>and the Western powers blinded vision will play a major role in

>TCM's future. Perhaps a fund should be set-up, run by TCM

>associations, to support and fund the development of research into

>TCM. The money could be raised by various methods, through

>subscription, fund

> > raising, sponsorship, etc.

> >

> > Attilio

>

>

 

_______________

Find a cheaper internet access deal - choose one to suit you.

http://www.msn.co.uk/internetaccess

[Guest guest]

Hi Salvador. I'm afriad i don't have it. Wish i took it at the time.

Sorry. In future i'll make a note to ask.

 

Attilio

 

" salvador march " <salvador_march@h...> wrote:

> Hi Attilo dare I ask for a date pof birth?

> salvador

>

> ________

> >Hi Emmanuel,

> >

> >Thanks for your wonderful input as ever. Yes, I also heard of a

> >specialised department at Shanghai that concentrate on the

> >pharmacological interactions that occur when WM and TCM are taken

> >together. I feel this is the real crux of the matter with regards

to

> >our integration into popular healthcare. I saw a patient on the

> >hospital ward that the other day, that for me was a classic case

of

> >WM and TCM being used together worsening the patient's condition.

> >Her original complaint was palpitations, shaking of the hands and

a

> >lack of strength. She received WM and TCM treatment and then

> >developed a red rash all over her skin. Could this be a reaction

as

> >all the medicine goes through first past metabolism in the liver?

> >She seems very distressed, depressed and had other liver symptoms.

> >Anyway, below is the case file. Its still a little raw, have only

> >just taken it off my hand notes and deciphered my energetic

> >handwriting.

>

> >Female 55

> >

> >Main complaint: palpitations, shaking of the hands and no strength

> >in the body.

> >

> >Symptoms: all symptoms started in December 2003 when she took WM

and

> >TCM together. She took Dan Shen to help but it didn't work. She

has

> >no insomnia but has a rash that comes in patches and is itchy.

Itchy

> >skin is highly uncomfortable. She cannot sleep well because of the

> >itchy. Has notable central eye brow creases. Has been on HRT for 7

> >years. Sweats at night and in the day but less. After sweating the

> >rash starts. Also suffers from throat swelling and tonsillitis.

> >Appetite is fine, but does not want to eat. Bowel movements are

> >twice a day and are soft to slightly loose. No nausea. Drinks a

lot

> >of water. Feels hot. Urinates once at night. Lost 6 kg since

> >December 2003. Urine not dark in colour. Palpitations; 126 BPM. T3

> >and T4 problems – hyperthyroidism.

> >

> >T: dull tongue, slightly purple with a white greasy coating.

> >P: small and rapid.

> >

> >Has a low WBC due to hyperthyroidism medication. Has dyspnoea on

> >movement. Not happy, not angry feels depressed. No goitre. Since

she

> >has no goitre or protruding eyes she has acute hyperthyroidism.

> >

> >3 methods to treat:

> >

> >1. Take drugs which reduces the WBC and lead to easy infection

> >2. Take radiated iodine which will destroy the thyroid cells.

> >3. Have surgery, which may remove too much or too little.

> >

> >Has a low WBC, so not allowed to take any medication. Surgery can

> >also cause hyperthyroidism:

> >

> >1. cut enough – no problem

> >2. too much – hypothyroidism

> >3. not enough – hyperthyroidism, will be on thyroxin for the

> >rest of her life. Its difficult for the patient to choice.

> >

> >In TCM, the main point are:

> >

> >1. Palpitations

> >2. hand shaking

> >3. Rashes

> >

> >The rash comes and goes indicating Wind. Wind is afraid of heat

and

> >causes dry mouth and thirst. Bowel movement is twice a day, more

> >towards Xie Xie.

> >

> >Syndrome Differentiation: Qi deficiency, more Spleen and sweats a

> >lot.

> >

> >She is Yin deficient which is due to the HRT treatment, menopause

> >and is worse at night. The low WBC is not considered as Blood

> >deficiency. The internal heat is from the liver qi stagnation and

> >having a low emotional level, which causes internal wind.

> >

> >If she feels no phlegm in the throat and has loose stools then it

is

> >damp. If she feels phlegm in the throat plus loose stools then it

is

> >phlegm. In this case she has both phlegm and damp. Heat is the

main

> >problem for her.

> >

> >Treatment Strategy:

> >

> >To treat the heat, don't use too bitter or cold herbs as they'll

> >damage the Yin. Try and go for formulas that eradicate Wind,

soothe

> >the liver and don't damage the Yin.

> >

> >Formula: Xiao Feng San and Xiao Luo Wan.

> >

> >Prescription:

> >

> >1. Fang Feng 5g, Jing Jie 5g, (both main herbs but reduce the

> >dosage) Bai Jiang Cao 15g, Chan Tui 10g,

> >2. Tong Cao 3g, Hua Shi 30g, Shang Gan Cao 5g, Yi Yi Ren 30g,

> >3. Shi Gao 30g, Zhi Mu 10g.

> >4. If still more thirst then don't use Shi Gao and Zhi Mu,

> >instead use Xuan Shen, Xiao Ku Cao and replace Yi Yi Ren with

Chaun

> >Bai Mu.

> >5. Bie Jia 15-30g, Mu Li 15-30g

> >

> >Fang Feng and Jing Jie uplift the LV, soothe the Liver and are

> >better to get rid of the LV Qi stag than Chai Hu.

> >

> >Sheng Di Huang and Xuan Shen to cool the blood heat.

> >

> >Attilio

> >

> >

> > " Emmanuel Segmen " <susegmen@i...> wrote:

> > > Hi Attilio,

> > >

> > > I'm so glad you are in China at a hospital to see for yourself

> >what's going on. I hope you make many English-speaking friends to

> >see also that some research happens on behalf of CM clinical

> >practice as well as agronomy research on herbs. Dr. Kang, where I

> >work here, gets a 25 kg box per month of clinical journals and

reads

> >every evening after dinner. That's the life of a dedicated

> >clinician. He used to be the chief of TCM at the Shanghai

Hospital

> >#1 for 16 years. Dr. Liu, my agronomist in Shandong, similarly

> >reads and tells us of a great deal of research in each province at

> >TCM colleges and universities as well as at agronomy PhD programs.

> >There's a kind of an agricultural university in Jilin Province

with

> >PhD programs that look at herbs from each province. The

candidates

> >are usually culled from each province and sent back to each

province

> >to work with growers. Dr. Liang (Dr. Kang's wife) and my boss at

> >Asia Natural is guided to growers in different parts of China

> >through the graduate school classmates of our Shandong agronomist

> >Dr. Liu as well as our Lanzhou factory contacts.

> > >

> > > The bottom line is that you are right about money for research.

> >It's all about China catching up and competing with America and

> >Europe for authenticity in Western medicine. Rey Tequia I believe

> >correctly notes that the Chinese are fascinated by " scientism. "

Dr.

> >Chiang (pres. of Min Tong Herbs) once noted something similar to

> >your thoughts below as far as integration catching up in the

distant

> >future. As a biochemist relatively new to Chinese medical

thought,

> >I asked Dr. Chiang how long he felt it would take Western science

to

> >evaluate Chinese medicine. As a PhD in pharmacology from

University

> >of Tokyo, I think he felt comfortable talking with me. On this

> >occasion he smiled one of his kind of dreamy smiles. He said it

> >took billions of people 3,000 years to come this far in CM. Why

> >would it take any shorter a period of time in Western science lab

> >hours? It struck me as a remarkably obvious answer to my

> >question. That conversation and many more like it over the past

> >two decades have given me an understanding of time with regard

> >to " integration " .

> > >

> > > Thanks, Attilio, for sharing your ongoing impressions.

> > >

> > > In gratitude,

> > > Emmanuel Segmen

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > I was speaking to a doctor in Beijing and he stated the same

> > > problems. There's very little money being directed into TCM

> >research in China with the majority of it going to WM. I think

China

> >as a whole, instead of concentrating on their own strengthens, are

> >trying to tackle the West head on at their own game. Hence the

> >advancement of WM research in China.

> > >

> > > Of course this is all swings and roundabouts. A balance will

> >come eventually with TCM and WM research and integration, but it

> >will take some years. Until then, secret formula, quality of herbs

> >and the Western powers blinded vision will play a major role in

> >TCM's future. Perhaps a fund should be set-up, run by TCM

> >associations, to support and fund the development of research into

> >TCM. The money could be raised by various methods, through

> >subscription, fund

> > > raising, sponsorship, etc.

> > >

> > > Attilio

> >

> >

>

> _______________

> Find a cheaper internet access deal - choose one to suit you.

> http://www.msn.co.uk/internetaccess

[Guest guest]

Hi Attilio,

 

Something further regarding your 55 year old female patient on 7 years of HRT.

You can read the whole article at the URL below. NIH in the U.S. has

recommended against use of HRT in a chronic manner.

 

All the Best, Emmanuel Segmen

 

Stroke risk halts study of estrogen

Evidence for limiting hormone therapy

Carl T. Hall, Chronicle Science Writer

Wednesday, March 3, 2004

©2004 San Francisco Chronicle | Feedback | FAQ

 

 

URL:

sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/03/03/MNGUJ5CVUD1.DT\

L

 

 

Federal health officials ordered an early halt Tuesday to a large study of the

effects of estrogen pills in healthy older women, after finding an increased

risk of strokes and essentially no lasting benefits.

 

The move by the National Institutes of Health underscores the growing medical

consensus that women should view hormone replacement therapy as a short-term

option to ease symptoms of menopause, not a panacea to ward off chronic ills.

 

NIH officials said they have sent letters instructing 11,000 participants in the

estrogen-only part of a study known as the Women's Health Initiative to stop

taking their study pills. Other parts of the huge program, looking at health

effects of low-fat diets and vitamins, are continuing.

 

 

 

Hi Emmanuel,

 

Thanks for your wonderful input as ever. Yes, I also heard of a

specialised department at Shanghai that concentrate on the

pharmacological interactions that occur when WM and TCM are taken

together. I feel this is the real crux of the matter with regards to

our integration into popular healthcare. I saw a patient on the

hospital ward that the other day, that for me was a classic case of

WM and TCM being used together worsening the patient's condition.

Her original complaint was palpitations, shaking of the hands and a

lack of strength. She received WM and TCM treatment and then

developed a red rash all over her skin. Could this be a reaction as

all the medicine goes through first past metabolism in the liver?

She seems very distressed, depressed and had other liver symptoms.

Anyway, below is the case file. Its still a little raw, have only

just taken it off my hand notes and deciphered my energetic

handwriting.

 

Female 55

 

Main complaint: palpitations, shaking of the hands and no strength

in the body.

 

Symptoms: all symptoms started in December 2003 when she took WM and

TCM together. She took Dan Shen to help but it didn't work. She has

no insomnia but has a rash that comes in patches and is itchy. Itchy

skin is highly uncomfortable. She cannot sleep well because of the

itchy. Has notable central eye brow creases. Has been on HRT for 7

years. Sweats at night and in the day but less. After sweating the

rash starts. Also suffers from throat swelling and tonsillitis.

Appetite is fine, but does not want to eat. Bowel movements are

twice a day and are soft to slightly loose. No nausea. Drinks a lot

of water. Feels hot. Urinates once at night. Lost 6 kg since

December 2003. Urine not dark in colour. Palpitations; 126 BPM. T3

and T4 problems - hyperthyroidism.

 

T: dull tongue, slightly purple with a white greasy coating.

P: small and rapid.

 

Has a low WBC due to hyperthyroidism medication. Has dyspnoea on

movement. Not happy, not angry feels depressed. No goitre. Since she

has no goitre or protruding eyes she has acute hyperthyroidism.

 

3 methods to treat:

 

1. Take drugs which reduces the WBC and lead to easy infection

2. Take radiated iodine which will destroy the thyroid cells.

3. Have surgery, which may remove too much or too little.

 

Has a low WBC, so not allowed to take any medication. Surgery can

also cause hyperthyroidism:

 

1. cut enough - no problem

2. too much - hypothyroidism

3. not enough - hyperthyroidism, will be on thyroxin for the

rest of her life. Its difficult for the patient to choice.

 

In TCM, the main point are:

 

1. Palpitations

2. hand shaking

3. Rashes

 

The rash comes and goes indicating Wind. Wind is afraid of heat and

causes dry mouth and thirst. Bowel movement is twice a day, more

towards Xie Xie.

 

Syndrome Differentiation: Qi deficiency, more Spleen and sweats a

lot.

 

She is Yin deficient which is due to the HRT treatment, menopause

and is worse at night. The low WBC is not considered as Blood

deficiency. The internal heat is from the liver qi stagnation and

having a low emotional level, which causes internal wind.

 

If she feels no phlegm in the throat and has loose stools then it is

damp. If she feels phlegm in the throat plus loose stools then it is

phlegm. In this case she has both phlegm and damp. Heat is the main

problem for her.

 

Treatment Strategy:

 

To treat the heat, don't use too bitter or cold herbs as they'll

damage the Yin. Try and go for formulas that eradicate Wind, soothe

the liver and don't damage the Yin.

 

Formula: Xiao Feng San and Xiao Luo Wan.

 

Prescription:

 

1. Fang Feng 5g, Jing Jie 5g, (both main herbs but reduce the

dosage) Bai Jiang Cao 15g, Chan Tui 10g,

2. Tong Cao 3g, Hua Shi 30g, Shang Gan Cao 5g, Yi Yi Ren 30g,

3. Shi Gao 30g, Zhi Mu 10g.

4. If still more thirst then don't use Shi Gao and Zhi Mu,

instead use Xuan Shen, Xiao Ku Cao and replace Yi Yi Ren with Chaun

Bai Mu.

5. Bie Jia 15-30g, Mu Li 15-30g

 

Fang Feng and Jing Jie uplift the LV, soothe the Liver and are

better to get rid of the LV Qi stag than Chai Hu.

 

Sheng Di Huang and Xuan Shen to cool the blood heat.

 

Attilio

 

 

" Emmanuel Segmen " <susegmen@i...> wrote:

> Hi Attilio,

>

> I'm so glad you are in China at a hospital to see for yourself

what's going on. I hope you make many English-speaking friends to

see also that some research happens on behalf of CM clinical

practice as well as agronomy research on herbs. Dr. Kang, where I

work here, gets a 25 kg box per month of clinical journals and reads

every evening after dinner. That's the life of a dedicated

clinician. He used to be the chief of TCM at the Shanghai Hospital

#1 for 16 years. Dr. Liu, my agronomist in Shandong, similarly

reads and tells us of a great deal of research in each province at

TCM colleges and universities as well as at agronomy PhD programs.

There's a kind of an agricultural university in Jilin Province with

PhD programs that look at herbs from each province. The candidates

are usually culled from each province and sent back to each province

to work with growers. Dr. Liang (Dr. Kang's wife) and my boss at

Asia Natural is guided to growers in different parts of China

through the graduate school classmates of our Shandong agronomist

Dr. Liu as well as our Lanzhou factory contacts.

>

> The bottom line is that you are right about money for research.

It's all about China catching up and competing with America and

Europe for authenticity in Western medicine. Rey Tequia I believe

correctly notes that the Chinese are fascinated by " scientism. " Dr.

Chiang (pres. of Min Tong Herbs) once noted something similar to

your thoughts below as far as integration catching up in the distant

future. As a biochemist relatively new to Chinese medical thought,

I asked Dr. Chiang how long he felt it would take Western science to

evaluate Chinese medicine. As a PhD in pharmacology from University

of Tokyo, I think he felt comfortable talking with me. On this

occasion he smiled one of his kind of dreamy smiles. He said it

took billions of people 3,000 years to come this far in CM. Why

would it take any shorter a period of time in Western science lab

hours? It struck me as a remarkably obvious answer to my

question. That conversation and many more like it over the past

two decades have given me an understanding of time with regard

to " integration " .

>

> Thanks, Attilio, for sharing your ongoing impressions.

>

> In gratitude,

> Emmanuel Segmen

>

>

>

> I was speaking to a doctor in Beijing and he stated the same

> problems. There's very little money being directed into TCM

research in China with the majority of it going to WM. I think China

as a whole, instead of concentrating on their own strengthens, are

trying to tackle the West head on at their own game. Hence the

advancement of WM research in China.

>

> Of course this is all swings and roundabouts. A balance will

come eventually with TCM and WM research and integration, but it

will take some years. Until then, secret formula, quality of herbs

and the Western powers blinded vision will play a major role in

TCM's future. Perhaps a fund should be set-up, run by TCM

associations, to support and fund the development of research into

TCM. The money could be raised by various methods, through

subscription, fund

> raising, sponsorship, etc.

>

> Attilio

 

 

 

 

Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious,

spam messages,flame another member or swear.

 

To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, visit

the groups' homepage:

Chinese Medicine/ click 'edit my

membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly.

 

To send an email to

<Chinese Medicine- > from the email

account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but will still

recieve messages for a few days.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Emmanuel,

 

Thanks alot for the feedback. That helps alot. It seems that the

Chinese docs pump the patient full of everything. I heard its the

doc that heals the patient that becomes number 1, so alot use high

doses to fix the problem whilst the patient is in their care. Quick

fix from the docs side.

 

In gratitude,

 

Attilio

 

 

" Emmanuel Segmen " <susegmen@i...> wrote:

> Hi Attilio,

>

> Something further regarding your 55 year old female patient on 7

years of HRT. You can read the whole article at the URL below. NIH

in the U.S. has recommended against use of HRT in a chronic manner.

>

> All the Best, Emmanuel Segmen

>

> Stroke risk halts study of estrogen

> Evidence for limiting hormone therapy

> Carl T. Hall, Chronicle Science Writer

> Wednesday, March 3, 2004

> ©2004 San Francisco Chronicle | Feedback | FAQ

>

>

> URL: sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?

file=/chronicle/archive/2004/03/03/MNGUJ5CVUD1.DTL

>

>

> Federal health officials ordered an early halt Tuesday to a large

study of the effects of estrogen pills in healthy older women, after

finding an increased risk of strokes and essentially no lasting

benefits.

>

> The move by the National Institutes of Health underscores the

growing medical consensus that women should view hormone replacement

therapy as a short-term option to ease symptoms of menopause, not a

panacea to ward off chronic ills.

>

> NIH officials said they have sent letters instructing 11,000

participants in the estrogen-only part of a study known as the

Women's Health Initiative to stop taking their study pills. Other

parts of the huge program, looking at health effects of low-fat

diets and vitamins, are continuing.

>

>

>

> Hi Emmanuel,

>

> Thanks for your wonderful input as ever. Yes, I also heard of a

> specialised department at Shanghai that concentrate on the

> pharmacological interactions that occur when WM and TCM are

taken

> together. I feel this is the real crux of the matter with

regards to

> our integration into popular healthcare. I saw a patient on the

> hospital ward that the other day, that for me was a classic case

of

> WM and TCM being used together worsening the patient's

condition.

> Her original complaint was palpitations, shaking of the hands

and a

> lack of strength. She received WM and TCM treatment and then

> developed a red rash all over her skin. Could this be a reaction

as

> all the medicine goes through first past metabolism in the

liver?

> She seems very distressed, depressed and had other liver

symptoms.

> Anyway, below is the case file. Its still a little raw, have

only

> just taken it off my hand notes and deciphered my energetic

> handwriting.

>

> Female 55

>

> Main complaint: palpitations, shaking of the hands and no

strength

> in the body.

>

> Symptoms: all symptoms started in December 2003 when she took WM

and

> TCM together. She took Dan Shen to help but it didn't work. She

has

> no insomnia but has a rash that comes in patches and is itchy.

Itchy

> skin is highly uncomfortable. She cannot sleep well because of

the

> itchy. Has notable central eye brow creases. Has been on HRT for

7

> years. Sweats at night and in the day but less. After sweating

the

> rash starts. Also suffers from throat swelling and tonsillitis.

> Appetite is fine, but does not want to eat. Bowel movements are

> twice a day and are soft to slightly loose. No nausea. Drinks a

lot

> of water. Feels hot. Urinates once at night. Lost 6 kg since

> December 2003. Urine not dark in colour. Palpitations; 126 BPM.

T3

> and T4 problems - hyperthyroidism.

>

> T: dull tongue, slightly purple with a white greasy coating.

> P: small and rapid.

>

> Has a low WBC due to hyperthyroidism medication. Has dyspnoea on

> movement. Not happy, not angry feels depressed. No goitre. Since

she

> has no goitre or protruding eyes she has acute hyperthyroidism.

>

> 3 methods to treat:

>

> 1. Take drugs which reduces the WBC and lead to easy

infection

> 2. Take radiated iodine which will destroy the thyroid

cells.

> 3. Have surgery, which may remove too much or too little.

>

> Has a low WBC, so not allowed to take any medication. Surgery

can

> also cause hyperthyroidism:

>

> 1. cut enough - no problem

> 2. too much - hypothyroidism

> 3. not enough - hyperthyroidism, will be on thyroxin for

the

> rest of her life. Its difficult for the patient to choice.

>

> In TCM, the main point are:

>

> 1. Palpitations

> 2. hand shaking

> 3. Rashes

>

> The rash comes and goes indicating Wind. Wind is afraid of heat

and

> causes dry mouth and thirst. Bowel movement is twice a day, more

> towards Xie Xie.

>

> Syndrome Differentiation: Qi deficiency, more Spleen and sweats

a

> lot.

>

> She is Yin deficient which is due to the HRT treatment,

menopause

> and is worse at night. The low WBC is not considered as Blood

> deficiency. The internal heat is from the liver qi stagnation

and

> having a low emotional level, which causes internal wind.

>

> If she feels no phlegm in the throat and has loose stools then

it is

> damp. If she feels phlegm in the throat plus loose stools then

it is

> phlegm. In this case she has both phlegm and damp. Heat is the

main

> problem for her.

>

> Treatment Strategy:

>

> To treat the heat, don't use too bitter or cold herbs as they'll

> damage the Yin. Try and go for formulas that eradicate Wind,

soothe

> the liver and don't damage the Yin.

>

> Formula: Xiao Feng San and Xiao Luo Wan.

>

> Prescription:

>

> 1. Fang Feng 5g, Jing Jie 5g, (both main herbs but reduce

the

> dosage) Bai Jiang Cao 15g, Chan Tui 10g,

> 2. Tong Cao 3g, Hua Shi 30g, Shang Gan Cao 5g, Yi Yi Ren

30g,

> 3. Shi Gao 30g, Zhi Mu 10g.

> 4. If still more thirst then don't use Shi Gao and Zhi Mu,

> instead use Xuan Shen, Xiao Ku Cao and replace Yi Yi Ren with

Chaun

> Bai Mu.

> 5. Bie Jia 15-30g, Mu Li 15-30g

>

> Fang Feng and Jing Jie uplift the LV, soothe the Liver and are

> better to get rid of the LV Qi stag than Chai Hu.

>

> Sheng Di Huang and Xuan Shen to cool the blood heat.

>

> Attilio

>

>

> " Emmanuel Segmen " <susegmen@i...> wrote:

> > Hi Attilio,

> >

> > I'm so glad you are in China at a hospital to see for yourself

> what's going on. I hope you make many English-speaking friends

to

> see also that some research happens on behalf of CM clinical

> practice as well as agronomy research on herbs. Dr. Kang, where

I

> work here, gets a 25 kg box per month of clinical journals and

reads

> every evening after dinner. That's the life of a dedicated

> clinician. He used to be the chief of TCM at the Shanghai

Hospital

> #1 for 16 years. Dr. Liu, my agronomist in Shandong, similarly

> reads and tells us of a great deal of research in each province

at

> TCM colleges and universities as well as at agronomy PhD

programs.

> There's a kind of an agricultural university in Jilin Province

with

> PhD programs that look at herbs from each province. The

candidates

> are usually culled from each province and sent back to each

province

> to work with growers. Dr. Liang (Dr. Kang's wife) and my boss

at

> Asia Natural is guided to growers in different parts of China

> through the graduate school classmates of our Shandong

agronomist

> Dr. Liu as well as our Lanzhou factory contacts.

> >

> > The bottom line is that you are right about money for

research.

> It's all about China catching up and competing with America and

> Europe for authenticity in Western medicine. Rey Tequia I

believe

> correctly notes that the Chinese are fascinated by " scientism. "

Dr.

> Chiang (pres. of Min Tong Herbs) once noted something similar to

> your thoughts below as far as integration catching up in the

distant

> future. As a biochemist relatively new to Chinese medical

thought,

> I asked Dr. Chiang how long he felt it would take Western

science to

> evaluate Chinese medicine. As a PhD in pharmacology from

University

> of Tokyo, I think he felt comfortable talking with me. On this

> occasion he smiled one of his kind of dreamy smiles. He said it

> took billions of people 3,000 years to come this far in CM. Why

> would it take any shorter a period of time in Western science

lab

> hours? It struck me as a remarkably obvious answer to my

> question. That conversation and many more like it over the

past

> two decades have given me an understanding of time with regard

> to " integration " .

> >

> > Thanks, Attilio, for sharing your ongoing impressions.

> >

> > In gratitude,

> > Emmanuel Segmen

> >

> >

> >

> > I was speaking to a doctor in Beijing and he stated the same

> > problems. There's very little money being directed into TCM

> research in China with the majority of it going to WM. I think

China

> as a whole, instead of concentrating on their own strengthens,

are

> trying to tackle the West head on at their own game. Hence the

> advancement of WM research in China.

> >

> > Of course this is all swings and roundabouts. A balance will

> come eventually with TCM and WM research and integration, but it

> will take some years. Until then, secret formula, quality of

herbs

> and the Western powers blinded vision will play a major role in

> TCM's future. Perhaps a fund should be set-up, run by TCM

> associations, to support and fund the development of research

into

> TCM. The money could be raised by various methods, through

> subscription, fund

> > raising, sponsorship, etc.

> >

> > Attilio

>

>

>

>

> Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear,

religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear.

>

> To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest

or none, visit the groups' homepage:

Chinese Medicine/

click 'edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust

accordingly.

>

> To send an email to

> <Chinese Medicine- > from

the email account you joined with. You will be removed automatically

but will still recieve messages for a few days.

>

>

>

>

> -

-----------

>