Guest guest Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 , " " <@e...> wrote: > 1000 subs at 500$ is peanuts in a project to validate TCM. It takes > >200,000,000$ to develop a single drug! just to be clear. I am talking about 500,000 to begin the task of raising funds for research, not 500,000 for the research. In fact, for 500,000, we can probably get a few research grants written and approved. that's where the cash will flow from. I don't think drug research is a fair cost comparison. All our R & D is already done. I say drug herb interaction is a red herring because by all accounts, it is a nonissue in china after 50 years of combination therapy. All my chinese teachers, without exception, belive there are very few risks and the issue is way overblown. In fact, very few documented interactions between drugs and herbs exist. Most are speculative. Virtually everything in Chen's book is speculative, IMO. Lots of animal researchand pharmacology, but almost no actual clinical studies or adverse event reports. Same with every other source I have seen on the subject, including my own work on the interactions software from IBIS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 , " " <@e...> wrote: > 1000 subs at 500$ is peanuts in a project to validate TCM. It takes > >200,000,000$ to develop a single drug! just to be clear. I am talking about 500,000 to begin the task of raising funds for research, not 500,000 for the research. In fact, for 500,000, we can probably get a few research grants written and approved. that's where the cash will flow from. I don't think drug research is a fair cost comparison. All our R & D is already done. I say drug herb interaction is a red herring because by all accounts, it is a nonissue in china after 50 years of combination therapy. All my chinese teachers, without exception, belive there are very few risks and the issue is way overblown. In fact, very few documented interactions between drugs and herbs exist. Most are speculative. Virtually everything in Chen's book is speculative, IMO. Lots of animal researchand pharmacology, but almost no actual clinical studies or adverse event reports. Same with every other source I have seen on the subject, including my own work on the interactions software from IBIS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 Hi All, & Hi Todd Phil wrote: >> 1000 subs at 500$ is peanuts in a project to validate TCM. It takes 200,000,000$ to develop a single drug! replied: > I am talking about 500,000$ to begin the task of raising funds for > research, not 500,000 for the research. In fact, for 500,000, we > can probably get a few research grants written and approved. > that's where the cash will flow from. I don't think drug research > is a fair cost comparison. All our R & D is already done. OK. Point taken. again: > I say drug herb interaction is a red herring because ... it is a > non-issue in China after 50 years of combination therapy. All my > chinese teachers, without exception, belive there are very few > risks and the issue is way overblown. In fact, very few documented > interactions between drugs and herbs exist. Most are speculative. > Virtually everything in Chen's book is speculative, IMO. Lots of > animal researchand pharmacology, but almost no actual clinical > studies or adverse event reports. Same with every other source I > have seen on the subject, including my own work on the interactions > software from IBIS. Todd (and any other Listers with good contacts in mainland China), IMO it will be crucial for TCM in the West to obtain an authoritative statement to support the claim that herb/drug interaction " is a non-issue in China after 50 years of combination therapy ... and that there are very few risks and the issue is way overblown. In fact, very few documented interactions between drugs and herbs exist " . It would be even better, if OFFICIAL Chinese sources, such as a Federation of the TCM and WM Med Schools in China were to make a statement like that, preferably supported by several documented examples of safe combinations of herbal & WM therapies. (or other Listers), with your contacts, would it be possible to set that up? Please see the mail, below, from another List today. The EU Authorities appear to be ready for a total clampdown on simple vitamin and trace-element supplements. I suspect that their plans for herbal remedies will be similarly draconian. That is why we need to move FAST, especially on issues of SAFETY and EFFICACY of TCM remedies. Best regards, Phil >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> " ykcul_ritsym " <ykcul_ritsym wrote [to the TCM List]: In August 2005, everything in Europe is about to change. Over 300 bioavailable nutrient forms present in over 5,000 safe vitamin and mineral products that include a large number of the safest, most readily absorbed and most effective, food-derived forms will be banned from the market. It stems from radical legislation passed in Europe by member State governments in June 2002 known as the EU Food Supplements Directive (FSD). The list of banned items includes natural vitamin forms such as mixed tocopherols (natural vitamin E), carotenoids and methylcobalamin, all forms of sulphur, boron, vanadium, silicon and most trace elements, the most readily absorbed and safest forms of calcium, magnesium, zinc, selenium, chromium and molybdenum. It will severely limit the doses of vitamins and other nutrients allowed in products, removing all high-dose products from the market. It will include future restrictions on nutrient forms other than vitamins and minerals such as fatty acids, amino acids, enzymes, probiotics, phytonutrients, etc. It will dramatically limit future innovation in the dietary supplement industry, with consequent serious impacts on retail outlets, complementary practitioners and consumers who choose to take responsibility for their own health. In addition to denying most Europeans access to safe nutritional supplements, this draconian EU Directive is going to be used as the blueprint for establishing international dietary supplement laws at Codex of which the U.S. has agreed to adopt. If this happens, which is a very likely scenario in the next year or so, Codex will outlaw or severely restrict virtually everything millions of us have grown accustomed to using safely every day. We no longer live in a world where national borders mean much of anything. We are witnessing the rapid unification of the world into a new global government with Europe at the helm. When the World Trade Organization (WTO) was given teeth to enforce international trade laws in the early 1990s by establishing an international court known as the Dispute Settlement Body, all WTO member nations in principle agreed to harmonize their domestic trade laws to a new set of international laws so every nation operates by the same set of standards. Most supplement consumers were unaware at the time that in effect, this would eventually lead to an incremental attack on all of our food supplements here in America and around the world. Most supplement companies have simply gone along with the advice from their pharmaceutically dominated trade associations and know very little, if any, about what is taking shape across the Atlantic. The Alliance for Natural Health (ANH), a consumer advocacy group based in Britain, was recently granted the green light to challenge the FSD at the last minute; however, very rarely has a EU Directive ever been overturned and in this case, it would be a historic event considering the pharmaceutical interests backing its implementation. Resources are very scarce and desperately needed to keep the lawsuit going to overturn the Directive before it's too late. They've hired a top staff of EU lawyers and together with its multidisciplinary team of experts they are prepared for a legal challenge in a EU Court. With the EU expanding by ten more nations in early 2004 to a combined total of twenty-five member nations, and with heavy pressure to finalize a Codex vitamin standard, we're at a critical juncture on this issue. If the FSD is not overturned, and with Europe's ever- expanding power, it's very possible that there will be enough countries onboard to overrule the U.S. at Codex where many parts of the FSD will be used when international vitamin laws are codified. Once a Codex vitamin law is finalized, it will supercede all U.S. supplement laws. The only way for America to truly protect its vital interest is to get out of the U.N. and the WTO entirely, which is something nobody realistically sees happening. If America is not vigilant to this threat, our supplement industry will be blindsided and knocked out without even putting up a valiant fight. In an effort to educate supplement consumers around the world to this dangerous threat to our health freedoms, CRUSADOR interviewed John Hammell of IAHF in a no holds barred discussion. Hammell has been sounding the alarm since 1996 that serious trouble is brewing for our industry. Unfortunately, John's pleas for help have mostly fallen on deaf ears as these international agreements continue to plod forward virtually unopposed and with complicity from high level U.S. delegates with pharmaceutical ties representing us at Codex. The time to muster the troops and kill this Directive and block a very restrictive Codex vitamin standard is now. Otherwise, it will be too late and America's supplement laws will be harmonized to a new set of draconian international vitamin laws. See: Huge Supplements Ban Coming To Europe: BLOWING THE WHISTLE ON THE COVER-UP http://www.thehealthcrusader.com/pgs/article-0104-ban.shtml An Interview with John Hammell of International Advocates For Health Freedom (IAHF), by Greg Ciola, Crusador Newsletter DEC- JAN 2004, (ISSUE 16) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 , " " <@e...> wrote: When the World > Trade Organization (WTO) was given teeth to enforce international > trade laws in the early 1990s by establishing an international court > known as the Dispute Settlement Body, all WTO member nations > in principle agreed to harmonize their domestic trade laws to a new > set of international laws so every nation operates by the same set > of standards. Dave Molony You're a free trader. what do you think of this? headlines read: global trade agreements effectively destroy american profession of TCM.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 In a message dated 2/29/04 3:07:02 PM, writes: > > When the World > > Trade Organization (WTO) was given teeth to enforce international > > trade laws in the early 1990s by establishing an international court > > known as the Dispute Settlement Body, all WTO member nations > > in principle agreed to harmonize their domestic trade laws to a new > > set of international laws so every nation operates by the same set > > of standards. > > Dave Molony > > You're a free trader. what do you think of this? headlines read: global > trade > agreements effectively destroy american profession of TCM.. > > ; > Below is my personal opinion, as you have asked for, arrived at from long term observation of our field, regulation, and politics and not the view of any organization I participate in, be it borough, county, state, national, or international. We may end up being screwed, as we have luckily been below the radar for so long and it can't last forever. However, timing may also be serendipidous (excuse my spelling), and we may have been around long enough to slide up between the cracks instead of down thru. The time may be right to organize ourselves to respectfuly ask for rights to our materials in a way that makes it so we keep our profession. This is not to say a thoughtful and researched lawsuit at the same time isn't a good thing, as long as it isn't done by the exact same group. Forever optimistic, I am cautiously hopeful. Unfortunately, due to the large number of people who are the only ones who are right in our profession and who may continue to pursue the road to dysfunction, as our profession has done so well in the past, we may, if I may quote, " snatch defeat from the jaws of victory " . David Molony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2004 Report Share Posted March 5, 2004 , " " <@e...> wrote: > > I agree with Ihor that changing PUBLIC and POLITICAL opinion is > probably the best option in the fight for the survival of TCM in highly > regulated western nations. Phil with all due respect to both of you, if politics and cronyism are what is necessary here, I want none of it. politics disgusts me. if we are not to use evidence to make these decisions, I am probably in the wrong field. > Hi Phil and members, This won't fly even if we do have the money. > If the system ie. the Matrix, is " programmed " against TCM herbs, that sounds like conspiracy theory to me. I don't buy it one iota. > Regarding the comment: " herb/drug interaction " is a non-issue in > China after 50 years of combination therapy ... It is > reasonable to say that this comment is false, with the discovery of > heavy metal contaminants in the products, substitutions that are > toxic, and low quality control standards in China, secret formulas, > and NEW drugs coming in all the time........it IS an issue that > needs to be addressed. none of these comments really addresses the issue of d/h interaction. In fact, it is fairly easy to address all of these concerns. buy GMP products only, preferably those produced in the US. such products contain no heavy metals, drugs or undisclosed ingredients or substitutions. what is this guy talking about here? straw men. red herrings. the more we buy into the hysteria over d/h interactions, the more we feed the fire against us. As soon as we admit this is a major clinical concern, it will be the end of TCM herbology in america. We need to produce evidence this is false, not kiss ass to some politicians until they do our bidding. then what happens when a new poltican takes over. that is an endless pursuit. If you talk to MD's they are clear about what they want in order to feel safe and secure making referrals: evidence, evidence, evidence. The average MD I know could give two craps about politics and is only interested in patient care. But I guess I am living on another planet from you guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2004 Report Share Posted March 5, 2004 I agree that in the present situation, evidence-based studies on herb-drug interaction will be necessary, and I am confident that little will be found to fuel the present hysteria that is gradually gripping both the biomedical and CM professions. There has been little to support this hysteria in present-day integrated practice in China. In my opinion, our own profession and various organizations are fueling the fires of an issue that can be solved with some basic application of common sense principles and evidence-based studies. On the other hand, we will have to engage the political process at some level whether we like it or not. As we have been discussing at PCOM, the present FDA situation is complex and requires legal council and communication to engage and hopefully resolve. This is different than a lobbying-buddy approach, and I understand your revulsion. On Mar 5, 2004, at 10:44 AM, wrote: > none of these comments really addresses the issue of d/h interaction. > In fact, > it is fairly easy to address all of these concerns. buy GMP products > only, > preferably those produced in the US. such products contain no heavy > metals, > drugs or undisclosed ingredients or substitutions. what is this guy > talking > about here? straw men. red herrings. the more we buy into the > hysteria over > d/h interactions, the more we feed the fire against us. As soon as we > admit > this is a major clinical concern, it will be the end of TCM herbology > in > america. We need to produce evidence this is false, not kiss ass to > some > politicians until they do our bidding. then what happens when a new > poltican > takes over. that is an endless pursuit. If you talk to MD's they are > clear about > what they want in order to feel safe and secure making referrals: > evidence, > evidence, evidence. The average MD I know could give two craps about > politics > and is only interested in patient care. But I guess I am living on > another > planet from you guys. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2004 Report Share Posted March 5, 2004 I realize people maybe confused by what type of studies I am advocating. I have no interest at all in doing detailed studies on individual herbs to prove whether they are a high risk for interactions. I want to do clinical research on patients for specific conditions and thereby build up a body of literature that shows our interventions when done on our terms are safe. nothing more, nothing less. We have an excellent safety record. the burden should be on the feds to prove otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2004 Report Share Posted March 5, 2004 Hi All, See the note, below, from Ihor Basko DVM (VBMA List). I agree with Ihor that changing PUBLIC and POLITICAL opinion is probably the best option in the fight for the survival of TCM in highly regulated western nations. Best regards, Phil >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Background: Phil wrote: > 1000 subs at 500$ is peanuts in a project to validate TCM. It > takes 200,000,000$ to develop a single drug! replied: > I am talking about 500,000$ to begin the task of raising funds for > research, not 500,000 for the research. In fact, for 500,000, we > can probably get a few research grants written and approved. that's > where the cash will flow from. I don't think drug research is a > fair cost comparison. All our R & D is already done. Ihor wrote: Hi Phil and members, This won't fly even if we do have the money. If the system ie. the Matrix, is " programmed " against TCM herbs, we will need political action. They need a credible body of recognized " experts " that can overlook any studies, and that can interface with the powers that be. Grass roots pressure is part of the equation. Regarding the comment: " herb/drug interaction " is a non-issue in China after 50 years of combination therapy ... and that there are very few risks and the issue is way overblown. Even if this is true, it IS an issue here, especially with FDA, and it won't go away. It is reasonable to say that this comment is false, with the discovery of heavy metal contaminants in the products, substitutions that are toxic, and low quality control standards in China, secret formulas, and NEW drugs coming in all the time........it IS an issue that needs to be addressed. The study of one drug and one herb can be expensive to prove safety and non-reactions. Once one studies what it will take to prove the pharmacological and pharmakinetic effects of one drug vs one herb and safety, one will realize that, yes in deed.....millions will be needed and alot of time. Sorry to sound so pessimistic, but I am currently working with the NASC and FDA/CVM on this matter, as well as AAFCO. Good " politics " and working relationships can have stronger positive effects on TCM's future, than reasonable research. We cannot win the war. They have more money and influence. We must try to " infiltrate " and work with the " enemy " , and maybe, we have a chance. Ihor Basko DVM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 I was speaking to a doctor in Beijing and he stated the same problems. There's very little money being directed into TCM research in China with the majority of it going to WM. I think China as a whole, instead of concentrating on their own strengthens, are trying to tackle the West head on at their own game. Hence the advancement of WM research in China. Of course this is all swings and roundabouts. A balance will come eventually with TCM and WM research and integration, but it will take some years. Until then, secret formula, quality of herbs and the Western powers blinded vision will play a major role in TCM's future. Perhaps a fund should be set-up, run by TCM associations, to support and fund the development of research into TCM. The money could be raised by various methods, through subscription, fund raising, sponsorship, etc. Attilio " " <@e...> wrote: > Hi All, > > See the note, below, from Ihor Basko DVM (VBMA List). > > I agree with Ihor that changing PUBLIC and POLITICAL opinion is > probably the best option in the fight for the survival of TCM in highly > regulated western nations. > > Best regards, > Phil > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Background: > > Phil wrote: > > 1000 subs at 500$ is peanuts in a project to validate TCM. It > > takes 200,000,000$ to develop a single drug! > replied: > > I am talking about 500,000$ to begin the task of raising funds for > > research, not 500,000 for the research. In fact, for 500,000, we > > can probably get a few research grants written and approved. that's > > where the cash will flow from. I don't think drug research is a > > fair cost comparison. All our R & D is already done. > > Ihor wrote: > > Hi Phil and members, This won't fly even if we do have the money. > If the system ie. the Matrix, is " programmed " against TCM herbs, > we will need political action. They need a credible body of > recognized " experts " that can overlook any studies, and that can > interface with the powers that be. Grass roots pressure is part of > the equation. > > Regarding the comment: " herb/drug interaction " is a non-issue in > China after 50 years of combination therapy ... and that there are > very few risks and the issue is way overblown. Even if this is true, it > IS an issue here, especially with FDA, and it won't go away. It is > reasonable to say that this comment is false, with the discovery of > heavy metal contaminants in the products, substitutions that are > toxic, and low quality control standards in China, secret formulas, > and NEW drugs coming in all the time........it IS an issue that > needs to be addressed. > > The study of one drug and one herb can be expensive to prove > safety and non-reactions. Once one studies what it will take to > prove the pharmacological and pharmakinetic effects of one drug vs > one herb and safety, one will realize that, yes in deed.....millions > will be needed and alot of time. > > Sorry to sound so pessimistic, but I am currently working with the > NASC and FDA/CVM on this matter, as well as AAFCO. Good > " politics " and working relationships can have stronger positive > effects on TCM's future, than reasonable research. We cannot win > the war. They have more money and influence. We must try to > " infiltrate " and work with the " enemy " , and maybe, we have a > chance. > > Ihor Basko DVM > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > Best regards, > > Email: <@e...> > > WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland > Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] > > HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland > Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] > WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2004 Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 I seen many times in Arirang TV(Korean Satellite TV) there is some Hospital in South Korea that study TCM in there Hospital and University. But many since language is the bearer so they never get expose by another media. Actually I felt the same feeling that in Indonesian Community TCM is alternative not synergies by WM. Event there is Medical School teach Acupuncture to their student but it same as course only. They also have Acupuncture Dept in Central Hospital but not yet get approval as Specialist only as expert. But I heard sometimes in Asian Meeting of Rheumatologist they let some expert in Acupuncture give speech. In Indonesia there is three types of Acupunture expert: common people study acupunture, parents give their child the knowledge, and MD study acupunture. But no special university teach as TCM all out. May be some expert wants to open their school in Indonesia. Iwan Santosa MD. Jakarta, Indonesia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2004 Report Share Posted March 8, 2004 There in one university in Surabaya, Indonesia, teaches Acupunture formally. Yudono. " dr.Iwan Santosa " <iwser wrote: I seen many times in Arirang TV(Korean Satellite TV) there is some Hospital in South Korea that study TCM in there Hospital and University. But many since language is the bearer so they never get expose by another media. Actually I felt the same feeling that in Indonesian Community TCM is alternative not synergies by WM. Event there is Medical School teach Acupuncture to their student but it same as course only. They also have Acupuncture Dept in Central Hospital but not yet get approval as Specialist only as expert. But I heard sometimes in Asian Meeting of Rheumatologist they let some expert in Acupuncture give speech. In Indonesia there is three types of Acupunture expert: common people study acupunture, parents give their child the knowledge, and MD study acupunture. But no special university teach as TCM all out. May be some expert wants to open their school in Indonesia. Iwan Santosa MD. Jakarta, Indonesia Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ click ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. To send an email to <Chinese Medicine- > from the email account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but will still recieve messages for a few days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2004 Report Share Posted March 8, 2004 Thank you dr.Judono , can you told me where is the exact loaction of Acupunture school in Surabaya. Is there any web or mailinglist for Indonesian Acupunturist? Please let me know, thank you. Best Regards, dr.Iwan Santosa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2004 Report Share Posted March 9, 2004 Unair, sorry I am not a WM but TCM Practitioner yudono " dr.Iwan Santosa " <iwser wrote: Thank you dr.Judono , can you told me where is the exact loaction of Acupunture school in Surabaya. Is there any web or mailinglist for Indonesian Acupunturist? Please let me know, thank you. Best Regards, dr.Iwan Santosa Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ click ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. To send an email to <Chinese Medicine- > from the email account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but will still recieve messages for a few days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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