RE: P Theisen- 80yrs back pain guidiness

[Guest guest]

Peter wrote:

 

I have another one with PN. This man has had PN for two and a half years

since a failed back operation. His MRI shows *many* disk protrusions,

nearly all of the disks. My speculation is that the weight of his immense

belly is forcing his spine to compress and force the disks to protrude. His

pain is so great that he cannot stand up straight. His date of birth is

March 11, 1926.--------

 

_________

 

Hi Peter

 

My approach is very simple. First make a case, there will be one primary

meridian that is Def and one in excess stagnant. These are the root for this

patient, you will find these below. Until you are clear which is which, if

you needle points in any other meridian you will confuse the picture.

However, with the clarity of which are root you are then in a much stronger

position to do other points that may be releavan in a pattern of dysharmony

if you so chose.

 

 

Ok This patient has possible Meridian dysharmonies in the SP, KID/ BL, and

LI.

there are numerous symptom references to water so I think KID/ BL is very

likely also SP, so for the time being keep LI on the side lines unless there

are/ have been symptoms of neck/shoulder

 

mouth/ nose, susceptibility to cold.

 

 

 

With excess appetite + Damp symptoms, Excess SP is the most likely. if so,

this would generate

 

the Blood Xu / Wind symptoms in the LIV (tremors).

Whilst you don't find this readily in the T.C.M. literature I have

succesfully treated many

 

patients with severe back pain by just sedating SP. The reason could well be

that an Excess SP

 

will weaken the KID across the control cycle. or if you want to get physical

the meridian runs through the psoas muscle at the front ans so would have an

effect on the Lumbars up to T11

 

 

my overall sense from the symptoms you have presented is that the Def.

Meridian is KID. If so

 

this would tie in with the excess SP because a weak KID will also weaken the

LIV (generating

 

cycle) and as the weak child of LU would explain why you have enumerated

symptoms of a

 

distressed LU.

 

 

The difficulty with the above is the severe guidiness, which, as you wil

appreciate I can only go by info you have provided. the guidiness has 2

potential causes physical structure (compression of nerves in the neck) or

organ / hormonal dysfunction (fluid disturbance in the ears)

 

Is the guidiness due to fuction? ie. fluid disturbance in the ears.if so

the Def. KID and

 

excess SP will explain it. if the guidiness is due to structure ie.

compression of nerves in the

 

neck then we would have to explore where the LI or BL comes in. Also worth

remembering that if the lower back is all out of alingment so will the other

end ie. the neck.

 

I think the Heat symptoms are derived from Excess SP. Easy enough to

confirm. Do one tx. where you sedate say SP-6 SP-10 and SP-21. If the

patient feels

 

relaxed and solid with healthy amounts of saliva then you have part of the

answer.

 

Question then is to find out which Meridian is Def. and you have 3 options

to choose from BL,

 

KID and LI. symptoms related to BL and LI will be structural on the whole

and could explain the guidiness at this level, KID will relate to function

for an 80 yra old he has very good blood pressure. is he on medication ?so

if KID def. any knee weakness sorenes? oedema in the ankles? breathlessnes,

symptoms of Yin xu? can you make a case ?

 

There is a lot of stagnation in the system from details provided you may

find that sed. SP will clear these over a few sessions but the question is

why are they there? is it medication?.

 

if the BL were to be deficient this would have a knock on effect on the GB

as well as the LI . The SI would be excess ans so might the ST be. all those

meridians would have an efect on the neck and create guidiness at a

structural level. Since you also mention guidiness arising after the last

operation this seems the likeliest course.

 

Hw do you find out? make a case for which is most likely to be deficient.

then tonify the source points only check pulses for improvemnt in quality .

and most importantly does the mouth dry out or get wetter? does the patient

relax or get more agitated.

 

Salvador

 

______________________________\

_________

He said he had a reduced appetite. It turns out that his appetite used to

be stupendously, redundantly, unbelievably excessive and now is only very

excessive. So we can add " Stomach Heat " to the differentiation. Other

Examination findings follow:

 

" Observe " Examination:

 

Unhealthy complexion. Yes. (no spirit)

Dark or unclear face color. Yes. (no spirit)

Breathing with a readily noticeable sound. Yes. (no spirit)

Slow or no movement. Yes. (deficient cold, usually spleen)

Tremors or convulsions. Yes. (interior wind of the liver)

Green face color (indicates a Liver pattern, interior Cold, pain or

interior Wind)

Large chest & epigastrium. Yes.

Fat body. Yes. (Central obesity)

Clear thin phlegm, cold pattern

earlobe crack is heart.

lack of movement, slow movements Yin, Empty (deficient) Cold.

Observe the lips. Purple.

Healthy color around wrists and ankles. Yes.

Pale nails. Yes.

Observe the Thenar Eminence. OK

Tongue color. Red on purple side.

Tongue shape. Fat.

Tongue coating. White.

Tongue moisture. Moist

Time of day that there is sweating. (When low sugar)

Severe giddiness, everything seems to sway, loss of balance. Yes.

Slight dizziness with a feeling of heaviness in the head. Yes.

Sudden onset of dizziness. Yes.

Sharp stabbing pain usually in a fixed location. Yes. (blood stasis)

 

Listen & smell

 

Crying. Yes. (related to metal, lung deficiency)

Foul, rotten nauseating odor like rotten meat or rotten eggs. Yes. (Kidney

or bladder damp heat, or heat in any organ)

Rancid or goatish, wood; Scorched or burning, fire; Fleshy or rank, metal

and Rotten or putrid, water (or heat in any organ)

 

Palpate:

 

Systolic blood pressure (Optimal <120; 117

Diastolic blood pressure (Optimal <80; 60

Heart rate. 83

Sinking pulse. Yes. (yin, internal disharmony or obstruction)

Itchy skin. Yes. (wind)

 

Patterns: No spirit; deficient cold; interior wind of liver; blood stasis;

internal deficiency; lung deficiency; Kidney bladder damp heat.

 

Organs: Liver, spleen, kidney, Heart, bladder.

Back pain due to disk protrusion pressing on nerves, aggravated by

overweight.

 

Sp 6; St 36; LI 4, 11; Lu 7. Back shu & front mu of various organs, as

convenient.

Liu Wei Di Huang Pian (Kidney, liver)

Fratkin patent chapter 12Hx

Weight reduction would be helpful, and in the light of reduced appetite,

convenient.

 

 

(no spirit)

(deficient cold, usually spleen)

(interior wind of the liver)

(indicates a Liver pattern, interior Cold, pain or interior Wind)

(blood stasis)

(yin, internal disharmony or obstruction)

(related to metal, lung deficiency)

(Kidney or bladder damp heat, or heat in any organ)

Wood, fire, water (or heat in any organ)

 

_______________

It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today!

http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger

[Guest guest]

Hi Salvador!

 

Thank you for your interest.

 

He only had the severe giddiness on the rare occasion, not all the time.

 

He does take blood pressure medication, don't have the details on the meds

with me at the moment, get those back to you later. No mention of knee

weakness soreness, no sign of edema in the ankles, no complaint of

breathlessness. Of course, he sits down nearly all the time, unless he is

lying down. Knees never get any weight on them.

 

I see him again on Friday, I will try out your recommendations then.

 

At 03:15 PM 2/22/2004, you wrote:

>Peter wrote:

>

>I have another one with PN. This man has had PN for two and a half years

>since a failed back operation. His MRI shows *many* disk protrusions,

>nearly all of the disks. My speculation is that the weight of his immense

>belly is forcing his spine to compress and force the disks to protrude. His

>pain is so great that he cannot stand up straight. His date of birth is

>March 11, 1926.--------

>

>_________

>

>Hi Peter

>

>My approach is very simple. First make a case, there will be one primary

>meridian that is Def and one in excess stagnant. These are the root for this

>patient, you will find these below. Until you are clear which is which, if

>you needle points in any other meridian you will confuse the picture.

>However, with the clarity of which are root you are then in a much stronger

>position to do other points that may be releavan in a pattern of dysharmony

>if you so chose.

>

>

>Ok This patient has possible Meridian dysharmonies in the SP, KID/ BL, and

>LI.

>there are numerous symptom references to water so I think KID/ BL is very

>likely also SP, so for the time being keep LI on the side lines unless there

>are/ have been symptoms of neck/shoulder

>

>mouth/ nose, susceptibility to cold.

>

>

>

>With excess appetite + Damp symptoms, Excess SP is the most likely. if so,

>this would generate

>

>the Blood Xu / Wind symptoms in the LIV (tremors).

>Whilst you don't find this readily in the T.C.M. literature I have

>succesfully treated many

>

>patients with severe back pain by just sedating SP. The reason could well be

>that an Excess SP

>

>will weaken the KID across the control cycle. or if you want to get physical

>the meridian runs through the psoas muscle at the front ans so would have an

>effect on the Lumbars up to T11

>

>

>my overall sense from the symptoms you have presented is that the Def.

>Meridian is KID. If so

>

>this would tie in with the excess SP because a weak KID will also weaken the

>LIV (generating

>

>cycle) and as the weak child of LU would explain why you have enumerated

>symptoms of a

>

>distressed LU.

>

>

>The difficulty with the above is the severe guidiness, which, as you wil

>appreciate I can only go by info you have provided. the guidiness has 2

>potential causes physical structure (compression of nerves in the neck) or

>organ / hormonal dysfunction (fluid disturbance in the ears)

>

>Is the guidiness due to fuction? ie. fluid disturbance in the ears.if so

>the Def. KID and

>

>excess SP will explain it. if the guidiness is due to structure ie.

>compression of nerves in the

>

>neck then we would have to explore where the LI or BL comes in. Also worth

>remembering that if the lower back is all out of alingment so will the other

>end ie. the neck.

>

>I think the Heat symptoms are derived from Excess SP. Easy enough to

>confirm. Do one tx. where you sedate say SP-6 SP-10 and SP-21. If the

>patient feels

>

>relaxed and solid with healthy amounts of saliva then you have part of the

>answer.

>

>Question then is to find out which Meridian is Def. and you have 3 options

>to choose from BL,

>

>KID and LI. symptoms related to BL and LI will be structural on the whole

>and could explain the guidiness at this level, KID will relate to function

>for an 80 yra old he has very good blood pressure. is he on medication ?so

>if KID def. any knee weakness sorenes? oedema in the ankles? breathlessnes,

>symptoms of Yin xu? can you make a case ?

>

>There is a lot of stagnation in the system from details provided you may

>find that sed. SP will clear these over a few sessions but the question is

>why are they there? is it medication?.

>

>if the BL were to be deficient this would have a knock on effect on the GB

>as well as the LI . The SI would be excess ans so might the ST be. all those

>meridians would have an efect on the neck and create guidiness at a

>structural level. Since you also mention guidiness arising after the last

>operation this seems the likeliest course.

>

>Hw do you find out? make a case for which is most likely to be deficient.

>then tonify the source points only check pulses for improvemnt in quality .

>and most importantly does the mouth dry out or get wetter? does the patient

>relax or get more agitated.

>

>Salvador

>

>_____________________________\

__________

>He said he had a reduced appetite. It turns out that his appetite used to

>be stupendously, redundantly, unbelievably excessive and now is only very

>excessive. So we can add " Stomach Heat " to the differentiation. Other

>Examination findings follow:

>

> " Observe " Examination:

>

>Unhealthy complexion. Yes. (no spirit)

>Dark or unclear face color. Yes. (no spirit)

>Breathing with a readily noticeable sound. Yes. (no spirit)

>Slow or no movement. Yes. (deficient cold, usually spleen)

>Tremors or convulsions. Yes. (interior wind of the liver)

>Green face color (indicates a Liver pattern, interior Cold, pain or

>interior Wind)

>Large chest & epigastrium. Yes.

>Fat body. Yes. (Central obesity)

>Clear thin phlegm, cold pattern

>earlobe crack is heart.

>lack of movement, slow movements Yin, Empty (deficient) Cold.

>Observe the lips. Purple.

>Healthy color around wrists and ankles. Yes.

>Pale nails. Yes.

>Observe the Thenar Eminence. OK

>Tongue color. Red on purple side.

>Tongue shape. Fat.

>Tongue coating. White.

>Tongue moisture. Moist

>Time of day that there is sweating. (When low sugar)

>Severe giddiness, everything seems to sway, loss of balance. Yes.

>Slight dizziness with a feeling of heaviness in the head. Yes.

>Sudden onset of dizziness. Yes.

>Sharp stabbing pain usually in a fixed location. Yes. (blood stasis)

>

>Listen & smell

>

>Crying. Yes. (related to metal, lung deficiency)

>Foul, rotten nauseating odor like rotten meat or rotten eggs. Yes. (Kidney

>or bladder damp heat, or heat in any organ)

>Rancid or goatish, wood; Scorched or burning, fire; Fleshy or rank, metal

>and Rotten or putrid, water (or heat in any organ)

>

>Palpate:

>

>Systolic blood pressure (Optimal <120; 117

>Diastolic blood pressure (Optimal <80; 60

>Heart rate. 83

>Sinking pulse. Yes. (yin, internal disharmony or obstruction)

>Itchy skin. Yes. (wind)

>

>Patterns: No spirit; deficient cold; interior wind of liver; blood stasis;

>internal deficiency; lung deficiency; Kidney bladder damp heat.

>

>Organs: Liver, spleen, kidney, Heart, bladder.

>Back pain due to disk protrusion pressing on nerves, aggravated by

>overweight.

>

>Sp 6; St 36; LI 4, 11; Lu 7. Back shu & front mu of various organs, as

>convenient.

>Liu Wei Di Huang Pian (Kidney, liver)

>Fratkin patent chapter 12Hx

>Weight reduction would be helpful, and in the light of reduced appetite,

>convenient.

>

>

>(no spirit)

>(deficient cold, usually spleen)

>(interior wind of the liver)

>(indicates a Liver pattern, interior Cold, pain or interior Wind)

>(blood stasis)

>(yin, internal disharmony or obstruction)

>(related to metal, lung deficiency)

>(Kidney or bladder damp heat, or heat in any organ)

>Wood, fire, water (or heat in any organ)

>

>_______________

>It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today!

>http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger

>

>

>

>

>Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious,

>spam messages,flame another member or swear.

>

>To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or none,

>visit the groups' homepage:

>Chinese Medicine/ click 'edit my

>membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly.

>

>To send an email to

><Chinese Medicine- > from the email

>account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but will still

>recieve messages for a few days.

>

>