Guest guest Posted February 10, 2004 Report Share Posted February 10, 2004 Hi all, Some of you have already heard from me. Thanks to everyone that has responded. I am a student working on my final paper. I thought it would be good to get input from the community not just from books. The subject of my paper is Dermatology. I am looking for successful treatments of skin disorders. Any kind of treatment, any kind of disorder. Preferably TCM. Please help. A little case history would be good to include. Thanks so much Heather Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2004 Report Share Posted February 10, 2004 Skin disorders appear on skin as an end result. To a large extent one does not strive to treat these other than symptomatically, and looks to the essential imbalance which caused this. It is possible to treat SOLELY the symptoms as the presnt on skin and end up causing harm. It is also possible to treat the symptoms minimally or not at all, and address the root cause, and resolve the issue entirely. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - home based recertification for acupuncturists and health professionals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2004 Report Share Posted February 10, 2004 Dr.K wrote: Skin disorders appear on skin as an end result. To a large extent one does not strive to treat these other than symptomatically, and looks to the essential imbalance which caused this. It is possible to treat SOLELY the symptoms as the presnt on skin and end up causing harm. It is also possible to treat the symptoms minimally or not at all, and address the root cause, and resolve the issue entirely. Dr. Holmes Keikobad _____________________________ Nicely put. I can only assume it is our reductionist mind set that wants to pigeon hole symptoms with a particular set of acupuncture points. It rather reminds me of western doctors grouping all people who have headaches with particular drugs to ease the pain. Salvador here is a few past examples of excema and psoriasis http://www.meridian-qi-acupuncture.com/9starqi011.htm sorry, the treatments were done with Acupuncture But do not fall with in the constrains of TCM so unfortunately other symptoms also improved. Ooppsss ! " Burn the heretic! " _______________ Stay in touch with absent friends - get MSN Messenger http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 My experience of skin disorders is that they are often linked to problems with the gut e.g. leaky gut syndrome or candidiasis. People take medications which cause dysbiosis and then things start to go wrong. I would always recommend supplementing with probiotics to support the acupuncture treatment. People often have such unbalanced diets so some nutritional guidance does not go amiss. Christine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 Care to cite a specific example of this? Godfrey. Chinese Medicine , " dr. k " <aryaone@e...> wrote: > It is possible to treat SOLELY the symptoms as the presnt on skin and > end up causing harm. > > Dr. Holmes Keikobad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 >Godfrey wrote: >Care to cite a specific example of this? > >Godfrey. >----------------- >Chinese Medicine , " dr. k " ><aryaone@e...> wrote: > > > It is possible to treat SOLELY the symptoms as the presnt on skin and > > end up causing harm. > > > > > Dr. Holmes Keikobad -- Hi Godfrey, Following on my theme of experimentation and your interest. I would be happy to suggest an experiement. If you give me your date of birth and your major presenting sysmptoms. I will use the info to suggest one or two acu pts. that you could needle on yourself. These will not make you better and could quite possibly make you worse. salvador _______________ It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 Godfrey: Care to cite a specific example of this? > All skin problems are specific examples. For instance the signs of skin pathology fall into: Dryness [eczema, excoriation, fissuring] Damp [edema, swelling, sogginess] Heat [redness, heatedness, again Dryness] Damp and Heat [pus] Cold [cold to touch, Cold Stagnated] Wind [movinf lesions such as urticaria, allergies which wander]. Does one treat the various signs, or what caused them to present? In a case of urticaria, one will either see this as Heat and Wind and remove the Excess; or as a Fire-Metal mechanism which caused this and right this. The point I want to make is less a criticism of how people approach skin problems, and more a provoking of thought if one were to approach illness as a design gone wrong. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - home based recertification for acupuncturists and health professionals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 Hello Salvador, How can you be so sure? Acupuncture tap in your own resources, and the natural homeostatic effect prevent it from doing any arm. At worts, it may just do nothing. The only way I can see acupuncture be armfull is if the practitionner needle into a blood vessel, a nerve or an organ, causing actual physical injuries. Personally I just cannot believe in what you just said, I could give you my date of birth, symptoms, my phone number and my tax code, I would still come to no harm with whatever point may may choose Regards, PJ On Wednesday, February 11, 2004, at 06:07 pm, salvador march wrote: > > >Godfrey wrote: > > >Care to cite a specific example of this? > > > >Godfrey. > >----------------- > >Chinese Medicine , " dr. k " > ><aryaone@e...> wrote: > > > > > It is possible to treat SOLELY the symptoms as the presnt on skin > and > > > end up causing harm. > > > > > > > > Dr. Holmes Keikobad > -- > > > Hi Godfrey, > Following on my theme of experimentation and your interest. I would be > happy > to suggest an experiement. > > If you give me your date of birth and your major presenting sysmptoms. > I > will use the info to suggest one or two acu pts. that you could > needle on > yourself. These will not make you better and could quite possibly make > you > worse. > > > salvador > > _______________ > It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today! > http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger > > > > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, > religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. > > To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or > none, visit the groupsí homepage: > Chinese Medicine/ click > ëedit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. > > To send an email to > <Chinese Medicine- > from the > email account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but > will still recieve messages for a few days. > > > <image.tiff> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 Pierre wrote: >Hello Salvador, > >How can you be so sure? >Acupuncture tap in your own resources, and the natural homeostatic >effect prevent it from doing any arm. >At worts, it may just do nothing. >The only way I can see acupuncture be armfull is if the practitionner >needle into a blood vessel, a nerve or an organ, causing actual >physical injuries. >Personally I just cannot believe in what you just said, I could give >you my date of birth, symptoms, my phone number and my tax code, I >would still come to no harm with whatever point may may choose > >Regards, > >PJ --------------- Pierre, your shared perception of acupuncture is a very common one, shared by a great many acupuncturists. I agree that my views are in the minority, however, you will find them expressed in the classics. What I say is contrary to what is taught in a great many Acupuncture schools including the ones I was taught in. I say, acupuncture is a sword with 2 edges. I say, it is arguably the most powerful tool presently available to human beings to bring us back to health. I also say that acupuncture because of its immense power to alter human physionomy, when used inappropriatedly, will disturb structure, organ and hormonal function. I agree with you that the body will self regulate so if you were to do just one or two innapropriate points. then over a period of time the body would regain a relative balance. Unfortunately, An acupuncturist is likely to continue treating in the same way for quite some time. so the disharmony will be compunded. Why do I have this particular viewpoint? what on earth do I have to gain by standing out in this particular way? I have been treated and made extremely sick over the years by other acupuncturists. I have experimented on myself and made myself extremely sick! I have given myself excema, meniers disease, cramps, knee pain, back pain, mouth ulcers, disturbeb bowels, breathlessness, dry and oily skin, I have also cured myself (thank God!). I have patients that have been made extremely sick by other acupuncturists and I have been known to make some mistakes in my time too. ( ahemm...shan't go into that right now). Here is an example of one patient I treated last year: http://www.meridian-qi-acupuncture.com/9starz564.htm I Love acupuncture I don't want to put any one off. However. Unless we appreciate how powerful a tool we have in our hands we will not be clued in to the signs when our treatments are damaging rather than healing. Nor Am I saying that we shouldn't make mistakes. It is by making mistakes that we really learn, but only if we recognize a mistake when we see one. salvador _______________ Use MSN Messenger to send music and pics to your friends http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 Hello again, Salvador In my opinion, there are two main groups of acupuncturist: those who look at scientific research as a mean of understanding acupuncture, and those who sees it mostly as a system of healing. Modern science has proven or explained nothing about acupuncture so far; it has come up with various theories and a large number of statistic studies who often contradict each others and in any cases prove absolutely nothing. The other group, those who see acupuncture as a system of healing, are closer in their way of thinking to buddhist philosophy, also Carl Jung and Synchronicity. They tend to associate the improvement of their result to their own personal development rather to scientific explanation. As you probably have guessed, I feel more akin to this second group, and in the world of healing, you can do little arm if any when you try your best to help your patient getting better Regards, PJ On Wednesday, February 11, 2004, at 08:24 pm, salvador march wrote: > > Pierre wrote: > > > >Hello Salvador, > > > >How can you be so sure? > >Acupuncture tap in your own resources, and the natural homeostatic > >effect prevent it from doing any arm. > >At worts, it may just do nothing. > >The only way I can see acupuncture be armfull is if the practitionner > >needle into a blood vessel, a nerve or an organ, causing actual > >physical injuries. > >Personally I just cannot believe in what you just said, I could give > >you my date of birth, symptoms, my phone number and my tax code, I > >would still come to no harm with whatever point may may choose > > > >Regards, > > > >PJ > --------------- > > > Pierre, your shared perception of acupuncture is a very common one, > shared > by a great many acupuncturists. > I agree that my views are in the minority, however, you will find them > expressed in the classics. > > What I say is contrary to what is taught in a great many Acupuncture > schools > including the ones I was taught in. > > I say, acupuncture is a sword with 2 edges. I say, it is arguably the > most > powerful tool presently available to human beings to bring us back to > health. > > I also say that acupuncture because of its immense power to alter human > physionomy, when used inappropriatedly, will disturb structure, organ > and > hormonal function. > > I agree with you that the body will self regulate so if you were to do > just > one or two innapropriate points. then over a period of time the body > would > regain a relative balance. > Unfortunately, An acupuncturist is likely to continue treating in the > same > way for quite some time. so the disharmony will be compunded. > > Why do I have this particular viewpoint? what on earth do I have to > gain by > standing out in this particular way? > > I have been treated and made extremely sick over the years by other > acupuncturists. I have experimented on myself and made myself extremely > sick! I have given myself excema, meniers disease, cramps, knee > pain, back > pain, mouth ulcers, disturbeb bowels, breathlessness, dry and oily > skin, I > have also cured myself (thank God!). > > I have patients that have been made extremely sick by other > acupuncturists > and I have been known to make some mistakes in my time too. ( > ahemm...shan't go into that right now). > > Here is an example of one patient I treated last year: > http://www.meridian-qi-acupuncture.com/9starz564.htm > > I Love acupuncture I don't want to put any one off. However. Unless we > appreciate how powerful a tool we have in our hands we will not be > clued in > to the signs when our treatments are damaging rather than healing. > > Nor Am I saying that we shouldn't make mistakes. It is by making > mistakes > that we really learn, but only if we recognize a mistake when we see > one. > > > salvador > > _______________ > Use MSN Messenger to send music and pics to your friends > http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger > > > > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, > religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. > > To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or > none, visit the groupsí homepage: > Chinese Medicine/ click > ëedit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. > > To send an email to > <Chinese Medicine- > from the > email account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but > will still recieve messages for a few days. > > > <image.tiff> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 Hi Salvador! Excellent point - never shrug off a mistake, always analyze it and learn from it. At 03:24 PM 2/11/2004, you wrote:<snip> >Nor Am I saying that we shouldn't make mistakes. It is by making mistakes >that we really learn, but only if we recognize a mistake when we see one. > > >salvador<snip> > Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 Hello again, Salvador In my opinion, there are two main groups of acupuncturist: those who look at scientific research as a mean of understanding acupuncture, and those who sees it mostly as a system of healing. Modern science has proven or explained nothing about acupuncture so far; it has come up with various theories and a large number of statistic studies who often contradict each others and in any cases prove absolutely nothing. The other group, those who see acupuncture as a system of healing, are closer in their way of thinking to buddhist philosophy, also Carl Jung and Synchronicity. They tend to associate the improvement of their result to their own personal development rather to scientific explanation. As you probably have guessed, I feel more akin to this second group, and in the world of healing, you can do little arm if any when you try your best to help your patient getting better Regards, PJ Dear P, A belief system is a wonderful and essential part of making sense of our world. Belief systems define the boundaries of our perception of reality. we all need them, even though the beleif system by definition is not reality. Beleif systems are also a swords with 2 edges. On the one hand they makes us feel secure because they give us a feeling of a structured universe. We sort of know where we are. On the other hand that security is also a prison stopping us from evolving and stretching the boundaries of our beleifs. and hence getting closer to the truth. In my previous email I shared with you deeply personal information based on my experiences, which were the result of my testing then boundaries of my beleifs systems. Because the knowledge and understanding I gained is, in my opinion, essential to been a good acupuncturist, and, because I deeply wish for the collective good health of mankind as an essential part of our evolution as as species, I freely share. Now, you can stick your head in the sand of your beleif system or you can say to yourself. What if salvador has a point? How can I find out for myself if he's discovered something that will make me a more efective acupuncturist? Perhaps from now on every time I treat a patient I will ask them if they feel more grounded and solid or spaced out, more relaxed or more agitated. When they come for the next treatment I will ask them what tensions have dissapeared which have appeared. I will note if unexplained sysmptoms sudenly turn up, if they develop immune system disharmonies. I totaly concur with your buddisht and carl jung's perceptions and yes we do get people that reflect or collective state of development. The people that come to us do not come by chance. However. AS your skill improves. so the quality/ type of the people that come to you also changes. I am now 50 and I have been involved as a seeker/healer since I was 15. I would also say that like you I lean towards the second group. I tell you, we can do an awfull lot of harm. I can make myself sick by merely focussing on a specif acupuncture point in my body and willing it to spin in an innapropriate direction. I am merely sharing with you pointers on how to improve your skill. salvador _______________ Express yourself with cool new emoticons http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/myemo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 Holmes, thank you but your reply doesn't answer my question. You said: 'It is possible to treat SOLELY the symptoms as the present on skin and end up causing harm.' I was asking for examples of this, not skin problems in general. Could you give a specific example where or how someone might treat the symptoms and signs of a skin disease which would (and this is the important bit) " end up causing harm " ? Thanks, Godfrey. Chinese Medicine , " dr. k " <aryaone@e...> wrote: > Godfrey: Care to cite a specific example of this? > > > > All skin problems are specific examples. > > For instance the signs of skin pathology fall into: > > Dryness [eczema, excoriation, fissuring] > Damp [edema, swelling, sogginess] > Heat [redness, heatedness, again Dryness] > Damp and Heat [pus] > Cold [cold to touch, Cold Stagnated] > Wind [movinf lesions such as urticaria, allergies which wander]. > > Does one treat the various signs, or what caused them to present? > > In a case of urticaria, one will either see this as Heat and Wind > and remove the Excess; or as a Fire-Metal mechanism which caused this and > right this. > > The point I want to make is less a criticism of how people approach skin > problems, > and more a provoking of thought if one were to approach illness as a design > gone wrong. > > Dr. Holmes Keikobad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 on 2/12/04 11:23 AM, salvador march at salvador_march wrote: Hello again, Salvador In my opinion, there are two main groups of acupuncturist: those who look at scientific research as a mean of understanding acupuncture, and those who sees it mostly as a system of healing. Modern science has proven or explained nothing about acupuncture so far; it has come up with various theories and a large number of statistic studies who often contradict each others and in any cases prove absolutely nothing. The other group, those who see acupuncture as a system of healing, are closer in their way of thinking to buddhist philosophy, also Carl Jung and Synchronicity. They tend to associate the improvement of their result to their own personal development rather to scientific explanation. As you probably have guessed, I feel more akin to this second group, and in the world of healing, you can do little arm if any when you try your best to help your patient getting better Regards, PJ Dear P, A belief system is a wonderful and essential part of making sense of our world. Belief systems define the boundaries of our perception of reality. we all need them, even though the beleif system by definition is not reality. Beleif systems are also a swords with 2 edges. On the one hand they makes us feel secure because they give us a feeling of a structured universe. We sort of know where we are. On the other hand that security is also a prison stopping us from evolving and stretching the boundaries of our beleifs. and hence getting closer to the truth. In my previous email I shared with you deeply personal information based on my experiences, which were the result of my testing then boundaries of my beleifs systems. Because the knowledge and understanding I gained is, in my opinion, essential to been a good acupuncturist, and, because I deeply wish for the collective good health of mankind as an essential part of our evolution as as species, I freely share. Now, you can stick your head in the sand of your beleif system or you can say to yourself. What if salvador has a point? How can I find out for myself if he's discovered something that will make me a more efective acupuncturist? Perhaps from now on every time I treat a patient I will ask them if they feel more grounded and solid or spaced out, more relaxed or more agitated. When they come for the next treatment I will ask them what tensions have dissapeared which have appeared. I will note if unexplained sysmptoms sudenly turn up, if they develop immune system disharmonies. I totaly concur with your buddisht and carl jung's perceptions and yes we do get people that reflect or collective state of development. The people that come to us do not come by chance. However. AS your skill improves. so the quality/ type of the people that come to you also changes. I am now 50 and I have been involved as a seeker/healer since I was 15. I would also say that like you I lean towards the second group. I tell you, we can do an awfull lot of harm. I can make myself sick by merely focussing on a specif acupuncture point in my body and willing it to spin in an innapropriate direction. I am merely sharing with you pointers on how to improve your skill. salvador _______________ Express yourself with cool new emoticons http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/myemo Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ click ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. To send an email to <Chinese Medicine- > from the email account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but will still recieve messages for a few days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 The dilemma thus summates to: The Design? Or the designated prescription of points as used over centuries? Take a case of aural eczema. The etiology is external evils causing SP Dampness. External evils could be foods, intestinal parasites, wind, sun, some plants, actually legion. In time the simple etiology can complicate to include Damp Heat in LV and GB. If this condition is treated by a set of points which if the condition is acute, release the External Evil; if chronic, adjust the Damp Heat in LV and GB, and the condition is resolved, the original cause may still remain; worse still, it may change form and become some other Design. If on the other hand, one looks for the reason SP tends to Damp, or in time LV and GB tend to hold Heat, one begins to see the Design. What can connect SP and LV-GB? If SP presents first, it can be that Earth restrained Water, which did cause the Damp initially and later Heat in LV-GB belatedly. If one thinks of a Counter Attack by SP on LV, there has to be an initial SP attacking Water Designs first. If SP and LV-GB are taken as part of the picture, the Design almost certainly is SP Restraining Water initially, and Water not nourishing Wood belatedly. In which case one may balance SP first for Damp, then work with Water, and lastly, if the need remained, adjust LV-GB Heat, which by now may have abated to a significant degree. If working with points alone, one were to Reduce LV-GB Heat, one would have also Reduced Wood, which in turn would Unrestrain Earth, and aggravate Damp there. Finally the entire Design may be a simple HT Weak, causing SP Damp, which rendered Water Weak, and caused a LV-GB Heat. In which case, if this is established beyond doubt, a simple Toning HT and Balancing Metal would begin to ameliorate LV-GB Heat. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - home based recertification for acupuncturists and health professionals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 PJ wrote: >Hello again Salvador, >Obviously our experiences differs widely. >I must say I find your last email a little patronising. >I had a look at your Website and I now know where you are coming from. >Jack Worsley did not bring five element to Europe, Lavier did. >Worsley just made a soup of it by mixing it with a bit of homeopathy (as, >for example, his law of cure that he forgot to attribute to its rightful >owner: Samuel Hanneman) and a bit of Korean and Japanese stuff) >He also instilled fear in his student and created all this paranoia about >doing arm if you did the wrong thing. >He was also well known for his arrogance. >Regrettably, You give me the impression that you have taken a leaf from his >book. >When using herbs, if you give the wrong formulation, you can seriously >aggravate a patient as you cannot take away that has been ingested. >When using acupuncture, you can more easily monitor and adjust what you do >As from taking pointers, I prefer to choose myself where they are coming >from >By the way you page on comparative religion was slightly amusing if a >little >vulgar >Regards and best wishes > >PJ OUCH!! I apologise for coming across as patronizing.. As for being arrogant, yes you are right, It is a trait in me. as for you knowing where I am coming from and taking no notice of what I share , I don't get a sense from what you have written so far that you do. I am sorry that I have failed to communicate with you effectively. salvador _______________ Find a cheaper internet access deal - choose one to suit you. http://www.msn.co.uk/internetaccess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2004 Report Share Posted February 15, 2004 Hi, In the light of more recent and heated exchanges about doing 'harm' with acupuncture, I repeat my question to Holmes Keiko, which is still unanswered: Please give an example where treating a skin disease symptomatically will end up causing harm. Thx, Godfrey Bartlett Chinese Medicine , " acu_qichina " <acu@q...> wrote: > Holmes, thank you but your reply doesn't answer my question. > You said: > 'It is possible to treat SOLELY the symptoms as the present on skin > and end up causing harm.' I was asking for examples of this, not skin > problems in general. > > Could you give a specific example where or how someone might treat the > symptoms and signs of a skin disease which would (and this is the > important bit) " end up causing harm " ? > > Thanks, > Godfrey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2004 Report Share Posted February 15, 2004 Say GB-LV Heat of aural eczema. A simple depletion of LV-GB points may relieve the condition temporarily, but make Wood Deficient, in turn Unrestraining HT at Fire element, and causing ST Heat to Rise. Which is what caused the problem in the first place. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - home based recertification for acupuncturists and health professionals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2004 Report Share Posted February 16, 2004 Chinese Medicine , " Heather " <hvandeburg> wrote: > Hi all, > Some of you have already heard from me. Thanks to everyone that has > responded. I am a student working on my final paper. I thought it > would be good to get input from the community not just from books. > The subject of my paper is Dermatology. > > I am looking for successful treatments of skin disorders. Any kind > of treatment, any kind of disorder. Preferably TCM. Please help. A > little case history would be good to include. > > Thanks so much > > Heather Heather, I dont know if anyone has already suggested this, but Attilio has posted one of his case-studies on Eczema, in the Files section on this group. Very informative and thorugh ; One of the sources for the case study was the Manual of Dermatology, which I have yet to purchase. I would be interested in checking out some of the other patterns and treatments involved with Eczema, Atop. Dermatitis., since I have a close friend who has had this chronic disease since childhood. Anyone with additional resources to share on this Disorder would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Oren Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2004 Report Share Posted February 16, 2004 But that isn't " solely treating the symptoms " as you said. " GB-LIV heat " is a diagnosis, not a symptom. As a diagnosis it certainly isn't one I wouldn't assume was the case in eczema, even if it was around the ears. If you treat eczema symptomatically, you would be treating the symptoms of heat, wind, (and maybe damp if it was weepy eczema). That's all. That wouldn't " do harm " as you claim. It might not get to the root of it, but it would alleviate the synmptoms. Godfrey Bartlett Chinese Medicine , " dr. k " <aryaone@e...> wrote: > Say GB-LV Heat of aural eczema. > > A simple depletion of LV-GB points may relieve the condition temporarily, > but > make Wood Deficient, in turn Unrestraining HT at Fire element, > and causing ST Heat to Rise. > > Which is what caused the problem in the first place. > > Dr. Holmes Keikobad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2004 Report Share Posted February 16, 2004 It could harm in this manner: Reduce GB to reduce Heat. This weakens Earth, so that it becomes more Damp. This aggravates the original illness, which was Earth SP Deficient causing Damp. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - home based recertification for acupuncturists and health professionals - " acu_qichina " <acu <Chinese Medicine > Monday, February 16, 2004 8:21 AM Re: Treatments for skin disorders But that isn't " solely treating the symptoms " as you said. " GB-LIV heat " is a diagnosis, not a symptom. As a diagnosis it certainly isn't one I wouldn't assume was the case in eczema, even if it was around the ears. If you treat eczema symptomatically, you would be treating the symptoms of heat, wind, (and maybe damp if it was weepy eczema). That's all. That wouldn't " do harm " as you claim. It might not get to the root of it, but it would alleviate the synmptoms. Godfrey Bartlett Chinese Medicine , " dr. k " <aryaone@e...> wrote: > Say GB-LV Heat of aural eczema. > > A simple depletion of LV-GB points may relieve the condition temporarily, > but > make Wood Deficient, in turn Unrestraining HT at Fire element, > and causing ST Heat to Rise. > > Which is what caused the problem in the first place. > > Dr. Holmes Keikobad Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, visit the groups' homepage: Chinese Medicine/ click 'edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. To send an email to <Chinese Medicine- > from the email account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but will still recieve messages for a few days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2004 Report Share Posted February 16, 2004 Talk about flawed logic! This is an example of someone making an apparently authoritative statement that treating just the symptoms of skin disease will do harm. Then in order to justify this nonsense a treatment based on a flawed diagnosis is given to try to justify it. If you want to treat eczema symptomatically you would use points which clear heat and alleviate itching. Points such as Du-14, LI-11, Sp-10 with Sp9 for weeping lesions, and H-7 or H-8 for itching. Using Liv or GB points has nothing to do with treating the general symptoms of eczema. It might be an attempt at a root-level treatment, in which case it could be wrong like any other diagnosis. But citing a wrong treatment based on a wrong diagnosis, is not the same as proving that symptom-based treatment 'will do harm'. An argument and 'logic' so fundamentally flawed it's risible. Godfrey Bartlett " dr. k " <aryaone@e...> wrote: > It could harm in this manner: > > Reduce GB to reduce Heat. > This weakens Earth, so that it becomes more Damp. > This aggravates the original illness, which was Earth SP Deficient causing > Damp. > > Dr. Holmes Keikobad > " acu_qichina " <acu@q...> > <Chinese Medicine > > Monday, February 16, 2004 8:21 AM > Re: Treatments for skin disorders > > > But that isn't " solely treating the symptoms " as you said. > > " GB-LIV heat " is a diagnosis, not a symptom. As a diagnosis it > certainly isn't one I wouldn't assume was the case in eczema, even if > it was around the ears. > > If you treat eczema symptomatically, you would be treating the > symptoms of heat, wind, (and maybe damp if it was weepy eczema). > That's all. > > That wouldn't " do harm " as you claim. It might not get to the root of > it, but it would alleviate the synmptoms. > > Godfrey Bartlett > > Chinese Medicine , " dr. k " > <aryaone@e...> wrote: > > Say GB-LV Heat of aural eczema. > > > > A simple depletion of LV-GB points may relieve the condition > temporarily, > > but > > make Wood Deficient, in turn Unrestraining HT at Fire element, > > and causing ST Heat to Rise. > > > > Which is what caused the problem in the first place. > > > > Dr. Holmes Keikobad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2004 Report Share Posted February 16, 2004 Godfrey Bartlett wrote: Talk about flawed logic! This is an example of someone making an apparently authoritative statement that treating just the symptoms of skin disease will do harm. Then in order to justify this nonsense a treatment based on a flawed diagnosis is given to try to justify it. If you want to treat eczema symptomatically you would use points which clear heat and alleviate itching. Points such as Du-14, LI-11, Sp-10 with Sp9 for weeping lesions, and H-7 or H-8 for itching. Using Liv or GB points has nothing to do with treating the general symptoms of eczema. It might be an attempt at a root-level treatment, in which case it could be wrong like any other diagnosis. But citing a wrong treatment based on a wrong diagnosis, is not the same as proving that symptom-based treatment 'will do harm'. An argument and 'logic' so fundamentally flawed it's risible. Godfrey Bartlett ______________ Godfrey, I am lousy at theory but I can cite lots of experiential examples. I have made excema dissapear within 2 treatments by sedating the LIV and Ton. KID . This I was able to do because I had correctly diagnosed the root for that particular patient. I don't know what would have hapened had I treated symptomatically and frankly I would rather not subject my patients to such distress if I can avoid it. you can read about htis particular example here : http://www.meridian-qi-acupuncture.com/9starz133.htm But I imagine Sed SP-9 /10 on this particular patient would have been a bad idea. As the Excess LIV would be weaking the SP across the controlling cycle. The Root weakened KID would have sent the HE/ P into hyperactivity but I very much doubt that sedating the P / H would have done much beyond one TX. Du-14? I very much doubt it is appropriate. LI-11? wrong side of the store. Salvador _______________ Tired of 56k? Get a FREE BT Broadband connection http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/btbroadband Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2004 Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 Hi, I read your case history with interest. It's a great example of careful analysis and diagnosis, It's lovely when you get it right yeah? However, the original argument was not about assessing a whole collection of S & S in order to come to a diagnosis, but the thesis that just treating " symptoms " can do harm. I have not recommended treating symptomatically- that's what cookbook needlers do, and I don't think they achieve a lasting remission of symptoms. I think we may be in agreement on that? However, treating just symptoms is not " subjecting them to such distress " as you put it rather emotively, it's just not very good acupuncture. As for Sp9/10 in a case of excess LIV/GB ? I think one can be too precious about this - if you had used these points I don't think it would have counteracted the rest of the treatment to address Liver Qi stagnation or Kidney deficiency. Your case-history says nothing about a weakened Spleen, so you can hardly introduce this idea now to support the argument against using Sp points. Perhaps you are coming at it from a purely 5-element perspective but my citing of DU-14 and LI-11 is standard TCM for clearing the heat symptoms of a skin rash. Don't know what " wrong side of the store " means but their use is appropriate within a simple symptomatic treatment Godfrey ####### > Godfrey, > I am lousy at theory but I can cite lots of experiential examples. > > > I have made excema dissapear within 2 treatments by sedating the LIV and > Ton. KID . This I was able to do because I had correctly diagnosed the root > for that particular patient. I don't know what would have hapened had I > treated symptomatically and frankly I would rather not subject my patients > to such distress if I can avoid it. > you can read about htis particular example here : > http://www.meridian-qi-acupuncture.com/9starz133.htm > > But I imagine Sed SP-9 /10 on this particular patient would have been a bad > idea. As the Excess LIV would be weaking the SP across the controlling > cycle. The Root weakened KID would have sent the HE/ P into hyperactivity > but I very much doubt that sedating the P / H would have done much beyond > one TX. Du-14? I very much doubt it is appropriate. LI-11? wrong side of > the store. > > Salvador > > _______________ > Tired of 56k? Get a FREE BT Broadband connection > http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/btbroadband Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2004 Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 Godfrey wrote: However, the original argument was not about assessing a whole collection of S & S in order to come to a diagnosis, but the thesis that just treating " symptoms " can do harm. I have not recommended treating symptomatically- that's what cookbook needlers do, and I don't think they achieve a lasting remission of symptoms. I think we may be in agreement on that? However, treating just symptoms is not " subjecting them to such distress " as you put it rather emotively, it's just not very good acupuncture. As for Sp9/10 in a case of excess LIV/GB ? I think one can be too precious about this - if you had used these points I don't think it would have counteracted the rest of the treatment to address Liver Qi stagnation or Kidney deficiency. Your case-history says nothing about a weakened Spleen, so you can hardly introduce this idea now to support the argument against using Sp points. Perhaps you are coming at it from a purely 5-element perspective but my citing of DU-14 and LI-11 is standard TCM for clearing the heat symptoms of a skin rash. Don't know what " wrong side of the store " means but their use is appropriate within a simple symptomatic treatment Godfrey Hi Sorry about my use of emotive laguage I can be a bit over the top. And yet. There is no doubt in my mind (based on a lot of experimenting) that the use of any acupuncture point not directly related to the root disharmonies leads to problems.(excluding the Ren and DU channels which seem to be in a league of their own) I have noted that this is not readily evident, in so far as the use of symptomatic points may well ease symptoms. Yet, I have no doubt that if any of the points used are not within the root meridians other symptoms will start to emerge. A large proportion of people are so physiologically distressed and out of contact with the workings of their bodies that unfortunately they don't give useful feedback, so unless our antennae is tuned in we are unlikely to make the corrolations. In my previous given example of LIV / KID dysharmonies. The patient did not exibit symptoms of SP disturbance you are quite right. However, the concept I was attempting to address is that in that instance was that had I used SP-9 /10 on that patient I would have complicated the healing process. I beleive that the reason for this is, that in 5 Element concept of the control cycle, the SP was already been weakened by the overactive LIV and hence sedating would have disturbed it further. As an aside in that particular patient I think that the insulting cycle was much more evident, where by the LU was been weakened by the overactive LIV as well as distresed by the demands of the weak child (KID). never the less treating root was sufficient. I have just remembered a patient of mine that is highly sensitive to her energy. She is prone to Stag in LU and def. in LI. The excess LU weakens her LIV across the control cycle. so any TCM acupuncturist would jump in and ton her liv blood def. symptoms ie. dry skin, floaters, brittle nails, tiredness, lack of umphh. evertytime I tried in the past to do so she felt weird and disorientated. she was ok on root treatments though. Salvador _______________ Express yourself with cool new emoticons http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/myemo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.