Guest guest Posted February 6, 2004 Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 RE: Chemo patient and nausea My last cancer patient (ovarian cancer, then spleen)that I treated during/after chemo I used - PC6, SP3, ST 36, LV3, KD3 or 6 (she would often be yin deficient after treatments) CV4 & CV6 - tonifying and plenty of moxa -- for the back shu I used BL23, 20 or 18 with moxa and BL17. This headed off the nausea 90 % of the time and her blood counts were always good. She is doing well and will be going for her 3 month check up next week. She proudly showed me her bed head yesterday! She is very good about taking advice about Eastern nutrition... She keeps a food diary and we go over it weekly. I also gave her some crystalyzed ginger to chew on to help if she did get nauseated. hope that is of some help. Karen Donahue Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes./filing.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2004 Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 Thanks all for your help regarding my patient. Will keep you posted as to her progress. Really appreciate you kind thoughts for her! Cheers, Pam Price Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2004 Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 > > RE: Chemo patient and nausea > I am very causeous to use moxa on my cancer patients. It is tonifying. What are the chances that we do not tonify cancer cells (even if they are killed/dormant by chemotherapy). When I was doing my intership I had to treat cancer patient (basal cell carcinoma and melanoma), also he had diabetis. My focus was on his pain. I remember that we had a great result to control his diabetis (especially neuropathy). However, with getting rid off pain he got very rapid growth and multiplication of tumors... I always remember this case. I will never know if it was me to blame. But I have gilty feeling about that patient. (He is alive and comes and sees me sometimes). I prefer to use just needles without any tonification. And I use herbal formulas. I would not use St 36 on the patient with Sp cancer and obviously I would not moxa back shus of your patient. May be there are more people who can share their experience? Tatiana > My last cancer patient (ovarian cancer, then > spleen)that I treated during/after chemo I used - > PC6, SP3, ST 36, LV3, KD3 or 6 (she would often be yin > deficient after treatments) CV4 & CV6 - tonifying and > plenty of moxa -- for the back shu I used BL23, 20 or > 18 with moxa and BL17. This headed off the nausea 90 > % of the time and her blood counts were always good. > She is doing well and will be going for her 3 month > check up next week. She proudly showed me her bed > head yesterday! > > She is very good about taking advice about Eastern > nutrition... She keeps a food diary and we go over it > weekly. I also gave her some crystalyzed ginger to > chew on to help if she did get nauseated. > > hope that is of some help. > Karen Donahue > > > > > Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. > http://taxes./filing.html > > > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, > swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or > swear. > > To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily > digest or none, visit the groups’ homepage: > Chinese Medicine/ > click ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and > adjust accordingly. > > To send an email to > <Chinese Medicine- > > from the email account you joined with. You will be > removed automatically but will still recieve messages for > a few days. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2004 Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 Tatiana wrote: > > RE: Chemo patient and nausea > > >I am very causeous to use moxa on my cancer patients. It is >tonifying. What are the chances that we do not tonify >cancer cells (even if they are killed/dormant by >chemotherapy). When I was doing my intership I had to treat >cancer patient (basal cell carcinoma and melanoma), also he >had diabetis. My focus was on his pain. I remember that we >had a great result to control his diabetis (especially >neuropathy). However, with getting rid off pain he got very >rapid growth and multiplication of tumors... >I always remember this case. I will never know if it was me >to blame. But I have gilty feeling about that patient. (He >is alive and comes and sees me sometimes). >I prefer to use just needles without any tonification. And >I use herbal formulas. > >I would not use St 36 on the patient with Sp cancer and >obviously I would not moxa back shus of your patient. >May be there are more people who can share their experience? >Tatiana _______________ Hi Tatiana, In a perfect world all our actions would be perfect. In an inperfect worl Understanding is clawed inch by inch from our mistakes for the benefit of future patients. Your patient more than likely got cancer because his immune system wasn't up to the job. Why is this so for some people and not for others? You may have read me me before. I stand on my soap box and say ' look for the underlying reasons from which disharmony manisfests'. I succesfull use chinese astrology to give me an objective angle on where to look. If you give me the date of birth of you cancer patient as well as all presenting symptoms prior you any acupuncture treatment, I will gladly add my focus to yours and see if we can jointly find out your patient's underlying causes, this will we useful as it will aid us to know which acupuncture salvador www.meridian-qi-acupuncture.com > > > My last cancer patient (ovarian cancer, then > > spleen)that I treated during/after chemo I used - > > PC6, SP3, ST 36, LV3, KD3 or 6 (she would often be yin > > deficient after treatments) CV4 & CV6 - tonifying and > > plenty of moxa -- for the back shu I used BL23, 20 or > > 18 with moxa and BL17. This headed off the nausea 90 > > % of the time and her blood counts were always good. > > She is doing well and will be going for her 3 month > > check up next week. She proudly showed me her bed > > head yesterday! > > > > She is very good about taking advice about Eastern > > nutrition... She keeps a food diary and we go over it > > weekly. I also gave her some crystalyzed ginger to > > chew on to help if she did get nauseated. > > > > hope that is of some help. > > Karen Donahue _______________ Express yourself with cool emoticons - download MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2004 Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 > Thank you, Salvador I do not treat that cancer patient anymore. His file is in database of the Hospital where I had my internship, so I do not know his birthday. He satisfied with the results (no more pain from diabetic neuropathy). For cancer, he prefers surgeries (multiple), also he does not do them. I try to understand your ideas from your website. Very interesting! Tatiana >T atiana wrote: > > > RE: Chemo patient and nausea > > > > >I am very causeous to use moxa on my cancer patients. > -----------~-> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 Tatiana and group, I am interested to hear this information on chai hu and hepatitis. Can you be more specific about your source that it " agitates the virus and increases viral load " ? I have used minor bupleurum specifically with my most recent hep c patient (along with other formulas for his patterns) and his viral load has decreased. Is that someone's clinical observation or based on research? ( I have heard of the interaction of xiao chai hu tang and interferon but not what you mentioned) regarding moxa and cancer: I have done it and think that we have to treat the pattern. The chemo does the job of clearing toxin and the moxa I consider part of FU ZHENG or support the right qi strategy in treating cancer patients whose right qi is compromised while going through western treatment. fu zheng herbal treatment has been studied showing positive results. why wouldnt the strategy with moxa be the same? has it been studied that moxa raises blood sugar IN CANCER PATIENTs specifically?? If not, can we make this leap to say it does in everyone despite their pathology? If they are also doing liu jun zi tang as fu zheng therapy then does the ginseng which lowers blood sugar offset the moxa that raises it? what about the synergistic effects of the other herbs with chai hu in hepatitis - would these offset any purported negative effects? Is it always necessarily helpful to take tid bits of scientific information that is gathered not from clinical experience but by measuring effects of herbs and treatments IN ISOLATION and allowing that to inform our practice? Sometimes this may be to our advantage (eg it was found that acupuncture reduced sympathetic nerve activity in congestive heart failure patients - can we claim then that it does this in everyone and therefore is good for stress/anxiety etc? Or do we need to be careful about making that leap?) Sometimes this is decidedly not to our advantage (eg when 'active compounds' in herbs are understood as drugs rather than being a part of a system of compounds which may provide co-factors and natural buffers which may offset negative effects). Western medicine may succeed in analyzing our herbs and treatments with this paradigm of isolation and come up with many theoretical concerns that dont bear out in clinical practice but scare our patients. If we cant respond to that by understanding the information and refuting it in their same paradigm we will have a more difficult time. This is already happening. People are already becoming afraid of herbs. We are becoming afraid we are going to hurt our patients (see subhuti's article on itmonline.org re: did the herbs cause that?). Dont get me wrong, I believe we should not think we are invincible and use this medicine carefully-too many practitioners are already cavalier and that doesn't help our profession. But we (as a profession) need to understand how to integrate scientific information into our paradigm and how to respond to it clinically and professionally. Unless we had a scientific background before going to chinese medicine school we did not really learn how to incorporate scientific information nor analyze studies. I think at the very least at doctorate level this needs to be taught. I know this spans a few threads so thanks for still reading. Nicole Hohmann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 > Hi, Nicole First, about Chai Hu. I sited Z'ev Rozenberg and others who were talking about Hep C recently on the web-site. I gave the reference to that previously. Not to use moxa on cancer patients is my own choice, because the rational I use is enough for me to do that. It would be great if we had a scientific research on it. And than , it may take quite a few years to make a statement. The herbal formulas usually prepared in a way that herbs counteract the unwanted effects. In moxibustion it does not happened.. Also, I supposed moxing Du 6 (strongly loweres blood sugar) could make some difference, but doing that in this case would be too artificial. There should be some experience and statistics in China. So far, I do not have a proof of either points and a decision is our own. About Ginseng... It is not the only herb in the formula... Than, if you were doing some research on Gu syndrome you could find that Ginseng was used as a test herb for the presence of the Gu. For example, patient with chronic Lyme disease who takes this herb may (with statistically high probability) get the symptoms worth. I believe that cancer diagnosis (whaterever the OM diagnosis) includes Gu syndrome. Howevever, we do not usually use a single herb but a combination, that is why we can safely enough prescribe Fu Zheng treatment to the patients. Once again, I am not making the point, I am sharing with my thoughts. And I am absolutely not arguing with that we have to treat the pattern... There are people more experienced and knowledgeble than me, probably they have different rationals on this topic. About PhD, again, it was discussed a lot on this and other forums. I do not think that medical backgroud is necessery to do the research on OM. That should be done by a group of different professionals working together. Tatiana > Tatiana and group, > > I am interested to hear this information on chai hu > and hepatitis. > > regarding moxa and cancer: I have done it and think > that we have to treat the pattern. The chemo does the > job of clearing toxin and the moxa I consider part of > FU ZHENG or support the right qi strategy in treating > cancer patients whose right qi is compromised while > going through western treatment. fu zheng herbal > treatment has been studied showing positive results. > why wouldnt the strategy with moxa be the same? > > has it been studied that moxa raises blood sugar IN > CANCER PATIENTs specifically?? If not, can we make > this leap to say it does in everyone despite their > pathology? > If they are also doing liu jun zi tang as fu zheng > therapy then does the ginseng which lowers blood sugar > offset the moxa that raises it? > what about the synergistic effects of the other herbs > with chai hu in hepatitis - would these offset any > purported negative effects? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 Tatiana, Your reference to Hepatitis C discussion got me interested. However I am not able to find any " Chinesemedicine-network " forum you referred to. If you could give us the URL where this discussion can be found I would really appreciate it. Thanks! Mike L. " tgaid " <tgaid wrote: > Hi, Nicole First, about Chai Hu. I sited Z'ev Rozenberg and others who were talking about Hep C recently on the web-site. I gave the reference to that previously. Not to use moxa on cancer patients is my own choice, because the rational I use is enough for me to do that. It would be great if we had a scientific research on it. And than , it may take quite a few years to make a statement. The herbal formulas usually prepared in a way that herbs counteract the unwanted effects. In moxibustion it does not happened.. Also, I supposed moxing Du 6 (strongly loweres blood sugar) could make some difference, but doing that in this case would be too artificial. There should be some experience and statistics in China. So far, I do not have a proof of either points and a decision is our own. About Ginseng... It is not the only herb in the formula... Than, if you were doing some research on Gu syndrome you could find that Ginseng was used as a test herb for the presence of the Gu. For example, patient with chronic Lyme disease who takes this herb may (with statistically high probability) get the symptoms worth. I believe that cancer diagnosis (whaterever the OM diagnosis) includes Gu syndrome. Howevever, we do not usually use a single herb but a combination, that is why we can safely enough prescribe Fu Zheng treatment to the patients. Once again, I am not making the point, I am sharing with my thoughts. And I am absolutely not arguing with that we have to treat the pattern... There are people more experienced and knowledgeble than me, probably they have different rationals on this topic. About PhD, again, it was discussed a lot on this and other forums. I do not think that medical backgroud is necessery to do the research on OM. That should be done by a group of different professionals working together. Tatiana > Tatiana and group, > > I am interested to hear this information on chai hu > and hepatitis. > > regarding moxa and cancer: I have done it and think > that we have to treat the pattern. The chemo does the > job of clearing toxin and the moxa I consider part of > FU ZHENG or support the right qi strategy in treating > cancer patients whose right qi is compromised while > going through western treatment. fu zheng herbal > treatment has been studied showing positive results. > why wouldnt the strategy with moxa be the same? > > has it been studied that moxa raises blood sugar IN > CANCER PATIENTs specifically?? If not, can we make > this leap to say it does in everyone despite their > pathology? > If they are also doing liu jun zi tang as fu zheng > therapy then does the ginseng which lowers blood sugar > offset the moxa that raises it? > what about the synergistic effects of the other herbs > with chai hu in hepatitis - would these offset any > purported negative effects? > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ click ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. To send an email to <Chinese Medicine- > from the email account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but will still recieve messages for a few days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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