Herb Regulation and the Doctorate

January 15, 2004

Greg,

I've found that my elected reps listen to me in particular and to those in general who have elected them. Particularly when you begin your sentence with how glad you are that your voted counted. You tell them how much you care about what they are working on. And then you tell them what you are working on and how they can help. You write them a letter. You mail the letter. You fax the letter. You send it as an email. You stop by when they are coming to visit "you" their constituency and shake their hand. None of these things are hard, take much time, or cost you much money. Also, you can actually vote. Again, not hard, costly or time consuming. I'm personally amazed by how much they help me ... and by how much they notice what interests me. If you give them a tax deductible donation of $50, they would notice that, too. Most acupuncturists charge more than $50 per visit. Doesn't it make sense to pay $50 per year and "visit" your local rep. You can tell them you've come for your annual political check up ... and by the way ...

Respectfully,

Emmanuel Segmen

-

sperb1

Chinese Medicine

Wednesday, January 14, 2004 5:24 PM

Herb Regulation and the Doctorate

I know this is not going to be a very popular post for the majority of readers, but here it goes. I see the Ma Huang regulation, our inability to cogently counter political and legislative onslaughts, and the lack of positive PR in these realms based on one factor: the doctorate is not entry-level. When we are competing against PhD's and MD's for the FDA's ear, we will lose. Every time. When we go to lobby our politicians, who do you think they are going to pay more attention to a group made up of non-doctors (they have a hard time even recognizing that we have masters degrees) or groups made up of PhD's and MD's? And who do you think a harried journalist is going to give more credence to, us or them? I know a doctorate doesn't need to be entry level for educational or informational reasons. But it absolutely must for political and PR reasons. We will always be second-class citizens without it. How far do you think chiropractors would have gotten in their fight against the medical establishment if they weren't doctors?Greg********************************************************Dr. Greg Sperber, BMBS (MD), MTOM, MBA, L.Ac.Diplomate in Chinese Herbology (NCCAOM)Diplomate in Acupuncture (NCCAOM)Greg********************************************************Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ click ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. To send an email to<Chinese Medicine- > from the email account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but will still recieve messages for a few days.

January 15, 2004

Greg

You are soooo right.

An accepted doctor degree as entry level. Accepted--- meaning fully recognized within the regional accreditation - not what we presently have. The current Masters Degree is a joke regarding acceptance in more ways than many realize. Sevel local APs tried to use their legitimate Masters degree (accredited both by ACAOM and State of Florida) and were laughed out of a Chiropractic College and another laughed-out of completing her Nurse Practitioner program.

The other important issues are:

1) Being THE recognized statutory providers of Acupuncture for Medicare

and

2) The AP/OM profession accessing a complete electronic code set for billing and documentation (Hundreds of ABC Codes vs 2 CPT copdes).

Richard

In a message dated 1/14/2004 8:27:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, sperb writes:

I know this is not going to be a very popular post for the majority of readers, but here it goes. I see the Ma Huang regulation, our inability to cogently counter political and legislative onslaughts, and the lack of positive PR in these realms based on one factor: the doctorate is not entry-level. When we are competing against PhD's and MD's for the FDA's ear, we will lose. Every time. When we go to lobby our politicians, who do you think they are going to pay more attention to a group made up of non-doctors (they have a hard time even recognizing that we have masters degrees) or groups made up of PhD's and MD's? And who do you think a harried journalist is going to give more credence to, us or them? I know a doctorate doesn't need to be entry level for educational or informational reasons. But it absolutely must for political and PR reasons. We will always be second-class citizens without it. How far do you think chiropractors would have gotten in their fight against the medical establishment if they weren't doctors?Greg

January 15, 2004

Hi Greg,

I had responded to Chris before I saw your note:

> [Re Ma Huang regulation] ... I see our inability to cogently

> counter political and legislative onslaughts, and the lack of

> positive PR in these realms based on one factor: the doctorate is

> not entry-level. When we are competing against PhD's and MD's for

> the FDA's ear, we will lose. Every time. When we lobby our

> politicians, who do you think they are going to pay more attention

> to a group made up of non-doctors (they have a hard time even

> recognizing that we have masters degrees) or groups made up of

> PhD's and MD's? And who do you think a harried journalist is going

> to give more credence to, us or them? I know a doctorate doesn't

> need to be entry level for educational or informational reasons.

> But it absolutely must for political and PR reasons. We will

> always be second-class citizens without it. How far do you think

> chiropractors would have gotten in their fight against the medical

> establishment if they weren't doctors? Greg

Ouch! But valid points, even if they upset some listers!

In essence, influence/power is about respect. Respect for a person

or group is largely about about credentials and credibility, AND the

resources and organisation to demand that respect.

Holistic/integrative medicine is like a fleet of torpedoed ships

floundering in rough seas just now. We must provide our own

rescue teams and tug-boats because those who attack us will not

rescue us.

Best regards,

Email: <

WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

January 15, 2004

Hi All, & Hi Richard & Debra,

Richard wrote:

> AP/OM is and needs to be a parallel 'stand-alone' medical system.

> Integrated in the sense of working together.

I am glad to see that you are working for integration, Richard. But I

disagree that " AP/OM needs to be parallel 'stand-alone' medical

system " . As is the case with physiotherapy [i hope I am not

treading on toes here!], making AP/OM " stand alone " puts it in an

INFERIOR position in the pecking order.

> The problem with this so-called integration is exactly what it

> sounds like - to co-opt, to take-over, to control. To integrate.

> For MDs to either be the primary practitioners of AP/OM or in the

> least to have APs work UNDER their control. Richard

That (who makes the primary decisions in health-care - who " rules

the roost " ?) is indeed the problem. THAT is why we must work for

full integration, and full representation at Board and Political level.

To follow Greg's point, for the specialist areas in holistic medicine

(AP/OM/Homeopathy, etc) to gain " respect " and credibility for

equal partnerships in the decision-making process, the basic

degrees in those areas of holistic med must be of MD or doctorate

status.

Professional respect and recognition of credentials is the key to full

integration. But will MDs and their peers on the regulation bodies

EVER RECOGNISE doctorate credentials in holistic medicine?

The " Old-Boy " network is alive and well!

Today, one can " buy a PhD " from some unscrupulous schools; in

reality, that PhD is not worth the paper on which it is written.

In an interesting comparison, modern training in NURSING is now

to University Degree status in many countries. Unfortunately, the

Establishment has not given (and probably never will give) nurses

the same respect (and salaries!) as doctors. [i intend no offence to

any nurses on the List!].

Breaking into Golden Circles is never easy; more often than not,

one must be INVITED in.

> If the control-system-at-large keeps young children dumb to the

> world....it is much easier to control them when they grow up.

> Richard

Again, this points to the need for constant PR to put the concept of

holistic medicine to all the people; but it is more important to

influence the politicians and regulation boards.

Debra wrote:

> Congress can't fight us forever and the AMA realized three years

> ago that it had to integrate us. ... I can tell you from personal

> experience, as well, it works. I manage quite well and I was

> schooled Western medicine first, but I have greater belief in the

> healing we achieve.... Namaste, Debra

Again, without wishing to offend any on the List, I agree with Debra.

IMO, professional training in conventional medicine + one or more

of the holistic modalities is the best preparation for students who

want to be great [rounded] practitioners.

IMO, the ideal medical education [in the future] will include basic

training in all aspects of integrative medicine. For this to happen,

we need herbalists, acupuncturists, homeopaths, osteopaths, etc

as full-time staff within the Medical Schools. And the university and

MD-training hospitals should have clinics that specialise in those

modalities.

Pipe dream? Maybe. But I smoke a pipe, and I dream.

Best regards,

Email: <

WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

January 15, 2004

Richard, Greg and All,

So what will keep the Doctorate

degrees from being just more

laughter-inducing paper?

If we're currently viewed by

colleagues in other fields as

comedians, how will changing

the post-nomials affect that?

If David Letterman showed up

tonight, introduced as David

Letterman, Doctor of Latenight

Comedy (D.L.C.),would that

really make anyone laugh any

less...or any more?

Ken

January 15, 2004

I completely agree. Besides, we really don't need that right now. What we could use are a lot of licensed Acupuncturists working and verbalizing their desires to the Congress.

Making a Doctorate a requirement, will keep a lot of potentially excellent Acupuncturists out of the field.

Making the Doctorate an option for people wishing continued Ed, would be a great idea.

Chris

In a message dated 1/15/2004 1:16:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, kenrose2008 writes:

Richard, Greg and All,So what will keep the Doctoratedegrees from being just more laughter-inducing paper?If we're currently viewed bycolleagues in other fields ascomedians, how will changing the post-nomials affect that?If David Letterman showed up tonight, introduced as DavidLetterman, Doctor of Latenight Comedy (D.L.C.),would that really make anyone laugh any less...or any more?Ken

January 16, 2004

Agreed, the doctorate should be optional, as a graduate studies type program. Liscensing should remain as it is. But, more CM practitioners who become MD's and vica-versa, the better for the profession. We need clout and most of all money to buy legitimacy in this arena.Musiclear wrote:

I completely agree. Besides, we really don't need that right now. What we could use are a lot of licensed Acupuncturists working and verbalizing their desires to the Congress.

Making a Doctorate a requirement, will keep a lot of potentially excellent Acupuncturists out of the field.

Making the Doctorate an option for people wishing continued Ed, would be a great idea.

Chris

In a message dated 1/15/2004 1:16:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, kenrose2008 writes:

Richard, Greg and All,So what will keep the Doctoratedegrees from being just more laughter-inducing paper?If we're currently viewed bycolleagues in other fields ascomedians, how will changing the post-nomials affect that?If David Letterman showed up tonight, introduced as DavidLetterman, Doctor of Latenight Comedy (D.L.C.),would that really make anyone laugh any less...or any more?Ken

Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, visit the groups?homepage: Chinese Medicine/ click 멷dit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. To send an email to<Chinese Medicine- > from the email account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but will still recieve messages for a few days.

January 16, 2004

I think the doctorate¡¯s place is best in

the areas of research, academia and administration (those who deal with organizations

like FDA, make policy, etc.). Certainly practice too, but it¡¯s

not a necessity. I don¡¯t think it would be possible to

require nearly everyone who is practicing now (those of us with MAcOMs or similar) to go back to school for 2 or 3 years

and spend another $40,000 to get a doctorate to let us do what we are already

doing. That sounds like a bonafide nightmare, IMO.

Barbara

mystir

[ykcul_ritsym]

Friday, January 16, 2004

9:21 AM

To:

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Herb

Regulation and the Doctorate

Agreed, the doctorate should be optional, as a

graduate studies type program. Liscensing should remain as it is. But,

more CM practitioners who become MD's and vica-versa, the better for the

profession. We need clout and most of all money to buy legitimacy in this

arena.

Musiclear

wrote:

I completely agree. Besides,

we really don't need that right now. What we could use are a lot of

licensed Acupuncturists working and verbalizing their desires to the Congress.

Making a Doctorate a requirement,

will keep a lot of potentially excellent Acupuncturists out of the field.

Making the Doctorate an option for

people wishing continued Ed, would be a great idea.

Chris

In a message dated 1/15/2004 1:16:43 PM Eastern

Standard Time, kenrose2008 writes:

Richard, Greg and All,

So what will keep the Doctorate

degrees from being just more

laughter-inducing paper?

If we're currently viewed by

colleagues in other fields as

comedians, how will changing

the post-nomials affect that?

If David Letterman showed up

tonight, introduced as David

Letterman, Doctor of Latenight

Comedy (D.L.C.),would that

really make anyone laugh any

less...or any more?

Ken

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January 16, 2004

Dear ykcul_ritsym,

Love that name...

It is perilously difficult to try and

buy legitimacy. Legitimacy emerges from

values and value structures, i.e., social

structures that are built upon underlying

values. In the good old US of A, there

is always a hint of illegitimacy whenever

it is discovered that legitimacy was

purchased, even with enormous clout and

money. People everywhere, I find, have a strong

sense of justice, no matter what defines

justice from time to time and from place

to place and who qualifies as just.

But, typically speaking, at least from

my own admittedly narrow experience of

human beings, people just don't dig it

when they learn that legitimacy has not

been actually earned.

Confidence becomes the ultimate arbiter

of economic and particularly financial

health. Thus I suggest extreme caution

when proceeding along a path that is

intended to lead from wherever you are

to clout, to money, to legitimacy. Once

confidence has been lost, it is all but

impossible to regain.

Even a lowly position can be used to

great effectiveness, if the overall

conditions are clearly understood and

the strategy devleoped is truly appropriate

in terms of both position and timing.

Chapter 54 of the Dao De Jing, which

bears a strong thematic similarity to

the gist of the Confucian classic Da Xue

(and can be understood as an expression

of the characteristic traditional Chinese

approach to what I think you mean by

legitimacy) has the following advice:

What has been well-established cannot be uprooted;

What is most well-embraced does not escape one's grasp.

If we proceed according to suchadvice,

we will put the root in order and use

its enduring capacity to nourish growth

and development to support of future

progress.

But this won't happen until and unless

we manage to stimulate a widespread

concern and initiative to take possession

of the knowledge base of the subject;

and this just can't be done until we

get serious about Chinese medical language.

As Nigel says, language is the neglected key.

The correct thing to do is cease the neglect.

Ken

January 16, 2004

Yes, I do agree that with more familiarity, CM and other therapies would find their own level around the globe, it works pretty well, almost magically at times.

And for me, any gain I've acheived the times I've started to study mandarin have have been lost by too busy and sporadic attempts. Spent too much time teaching english, maybe. But getting a usable grasp of everyday chinese remains a life goal, and medical chinese seems definitely acheivable when I see all the resources from this group and beyond. Must put myself in a better mind to do it.

As for the 'legitamacy' of unshared corporate commercial/political power, another chinese expression says, " A house established by oppression, cannot enjoy it long." kenrose2008 <kenrose2008 wrote:

Dear ykcul_ritsym,Love that name...It is perilously difficult to try andbuy legitimacy. Legitimacy emerges fromvalues and value structures, i.e., socialstructures that are built upon underlyingvalues. In the good old US of A, thereis always a hint of illegitimacy wheneverit is discovered that legitimacy waspurchased, even with enormous clout andmoney. People everywhere, I find, have a strongsense of justice, no matter what definesjustice from time to time and from placeto place and who qualifies as just.But, typically speaking, at least frommy own admittedly narrow experience ofhuman beings, people just don't dig itwhen they learn that legitimacy has notbeen actually earned.Confidence becomes the ultimate arbiterof economic and particularly financialhealth. Thus I suggest extreme

cautionwhen proceeding along a path that isintended to lead from wherever you areto clout, to money, to legitimacy. Onceconfidence has been lost, it is all butimpossible to regain.Even a lowly position can be used togreat effectiveness, if the overallconditions are clearly understood andthe strategy devleoped is truly appropriatein terms of both position and timing.Chapter 54 of the Dao De Jing, whichbears a strong thematic similarity tothe gist of the Confucian classic Da Xue(and can be understood as an expressionof the characteristic traditional Chineseapproach to what I think you mean bylegitimacy) has the following advice:What has been well-established cannot be uprooted;What is most well-embraced does not escape one's grasp.If we proceed according to suchadvice,we will put the root in order and useits enduring capacity to nourish growthand development to support of

futureprogress.But this won't happen until and unlesswe manage to stimulate a widespreadconcern and initiative to take possessionof the knowledge base of the subject;and this just can't be done until weget serious about Chinese medical language.As Nigel says, language is the neglected key.The correct thing to do is cease the neglect.KenMembership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ click ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. To send an email to<Chinese Medicine- > from the email account you

joined with. You will be removed automatically but will still recieve messages for a few days.

January 19, 2004

Ken et al

Since 'words' ARE very important let's not call the degree a 'doctorate' or a 'clinical doctorate'.

Let's call it what it IS in ever other medical-healthcare profession where the practitioner is a doctor of some form of medicine. It not only should be called an entry level 'Doctor of Medicine Degree' but that's is exactly what it should be. In allopathic medicine it is called 'doctor of medicine', in chiropractice medicine it is called 'doctor of chiropractic medicine'. Therefore.....the degree should simply be called 'Doctor of Oriental Medicine' or some variation thereof.

The 'laughter-inducing' is already built-in from the inception of the present system of tangential accreditation.

The most important issue is that this oriental medicine entry level doctor degree would neccessarily be recognized within the main stream regional accrediting system or better yet - be part of it.

Richard

In a message dated 1/15/2004 1:16:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, kenrose2008 writes:

So what will keep the Doctoratedegrees from being just more laughter-inducing paper?

January 19, 2004

I myself would like to see the entry leveled kept so talented people could practice basic chinese medicine without having to spend and 'attend' so much more. A doctorate to me, should lead to the ability to be a primary physician or general practitioner with their specialty. Too many people are in love with credentialling and status, but when you compare clinical results with a doctorate practitioner and a master's degree pactitioner, often the increase in skill doesn't justify transforming the whole process.

Keep entry level as master's degree and those who wish (and can afford) can go on with the doctorate. Lets not try to imitate the medical guilds too hard. Remember kids, allopathic medicine is close to the number one killer in society today. Don't you dare forget that in the rush for their acceptance. Educate the public more.

I am unhappy that many old timers used to be able to do their thing in chinatowns and other places, but now scince they aren't "liscenced" they are afraid to practice and don;t care to teach or get the 'credentials to teach because the respect is somewhat lacking.

But times change so, on with the show. But remember the reason people try alternative medicine IS because its not the pill popping quicky shops, full of egomaniacs who are too self important, or, really care but are constrained by the system and the economics of it.

Sorry if I am harsh to anyone, but altho there is a long long way to go to a perfect preventative get-what-you-want-and-need marriage of what used to be called east and west, it has come far. Don't put barriers up to others who have this calling.

peace, fran acudoc11 wrote:

Ken et al

Since 'words' ARE very important let's not call the degree a 'doctorate' or a 'clinical doctorate'.

Let's call it what it IS in ever other medical-healthcare profession where the practitioner is a doctor of some form of medicine. It not only should be called an entry level 'Doctor of Medicine Degree' but that's is exactly what it should be. In allopathic medicine it is called 'doctor of medicine', in chiropractice medicine it is called 'doctor of chiropractic medicine'. Therefore.....the degree should simply be called 'Doctor of Oriental Medicine' or some variation thereof.

The 'laughter-inducing' is already built-in from the inception of the present system of tangential accreditation.

The most important issue is that this oriental medicine entry level doctor degree would neccessarily be recognized within the main stream regional accrediting system or better yet - be part of it.

Richard

In a message dated 1/15/2004 1:16:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, kenrose2008 writes:

So what will keep the Doctoratedegrees from being just more laughter-inducing paper?

Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ click ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. To send an email to<Chinese Medicine- > from the email account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but will still recieve messages for a few days.

January 24, 2004

Dear Group

Issue for Herb regulation and the doctorate have become very important, especially in the UK. The most important worry is that western scientists do not accept that they do not know . In contrast, they are thinking there are many concepts of CM against current science. Therefore, under such background, we do not think any regulation based on scienctist or rulers of scientists(polititians) can do something favouring development of .

For example, one of most important principles of is case-based way to determine the way is right or is not right. To use science based way to manage science problem, it will use rule-based or common rule based way to do. Therefore, a standard regulation can be used for science regulation but it might not be good for . Looking current UK' herbs regulation discussion group, it is going to follow rule based way. For instance, they require qualifited CM worker in the UK must have Good English commond over college level, which might not be suitable for majority of workers who learn from in China. Another example, they require everyone to enter one society or one association over the whole country. It might be good for western medicine, but it is definitely against the principle of CM: Harmony way to accept freedom of individual choice. Such one society or one association in one nation to control CM can become Monopoly to stop development of Chinese medicine.

Finally, western medicine is based a conquring culture, which everyday, eveyone wants to conqure someone and some fact , and become NO 1 in the world. Comparisong culture is based on harmony culture, which has never wanted to be ruler over others instead to together harmony and adaptable to others.

Perhaps, I am the goat, according to Chinese Horoscope zodiac, i like to talk adaptable way. But i cannot see this group is understanding this. If the group wants to promote Chinese medicine, they must take a harmony culture way to work with all member of the discussion group rather than conquring way to put someone away.

It is not problem not to use Doctor if western medicine is not happy Chinese medicine is equal with them to heal people. There are many ways to call , such Mr. CM consultant, CM adviser et al. Most important thing is protecting any restriction to develop CM working along with others.

Thanks

John Wu MD PhD MSc DCEH MGCTCM

Dr & HERBS Ltd, UK

www.drandherbs.com

0044 77 135 060 24

January 26, 2004

Sat, 24 Jan 2004 13:07:21 EST

John Wu (S888888888) wrote:

>Issue for Herb regulation and the doctorate have become very important,

>especially in the UK. The most important worry is that western scientists

do not

>accept that they do not know . In contrast, they are

thinking

>there are many concepts of CM against current science.

Science itself is not against Chinese medicine, but it requires

experimental demonstration in order to accept it. In some countries (e.g.

the USA), their are criteria such as " safe and effective " which are applied

by law. Efficacy means evidenced based, rather than anecdotally. The weight

of a traditional or legendary belief system is also not evidence.

On the other hand, if Chinese medicine is effective -- and many of us know

from experience that it does -- it should be possible to scientifically

verify this. The current tradition of scientific experimentation has

evolved over the last 40 years or so and adapted to validating western

medicine, in particular pharmaceutics. It may well be that scientific

methods have to be refined to address different situations, as presented by

Chinese and other alternative medicines. It is in the nature of (western)

science that it is always self-critical and open to further development.

This is a challenge for us, which some have begun to address.

>For example, one of most important principles of is

>case-based way to determine the way is right or is not right. To use

science based

>way to manage science problem, it will use rule-based or common rule based

way

>to do.

Diagnosing and treating in terms of an individual situation (genetics,

history, constitution, environment, lifestyle, etc.) is an aspect in

Chinese medicine which works well for us, and will very likely influence

medicine in the west. Western medicine has been focused on a mechanical

model -- one size fits all -- with which it has made significant advances.

It must be recognized also that TCM, in the narrow sense, is moving in the

direction standardized treatment for standardized conditions, imitating

western medicine.

>Therefore, a standard regulation can be used for science regulation

>but it might not be good for . Looking current UK' herbs

>regulation discussion group, it is going to follow rule based way. For

instance,

>they require qualifited CM worker in the UK must have Good English commond

over

>college level, which might not be suitable for majority of

>workers who learn from in China.

Different countries have different standards and legal systems relating to

health care. That a western country develops an interest in Chinese

medicine does not mean that Chinese practitioners can practice here

without adapting to the local laws and customs. Chinese doctors are

accustomed to modes of communication and modes of client expression of

conditions which are so some extent cultural-bound, and do not necessarily

work well in other cultures. To practice in another country, it is

reasonable to require not only fluency in the local language, but also

sensitivity to culturally conditioned differences in how people experience

and express medical conditions.

>Another example, they require everyone to

>enter one society or one association over the whole country. It might be

good for

>western medicine, but it is definitely against the principle of CM: Harmony

>way to accept freedom of individual choice. Such one society or one

association

>in one nation to control CM can become Monopoly to stop development of

>Chinese medicine.

Again, reflecting lack of understanding of cultural differences. Politics

interacts with medicine in all countries. For the PRC, TCM is above all a

political phenomenon, and is used in relationship to other countries

predominantly as an instrument of foreign policy. " Freedom and individual

choice " , as they are understood in most western countries, are not central

values in China, neither today nor throughout most of history.

>Finally, western medicine is based a conquring culture, which everyday,

>eveyone wants to conqure someone and some fact , and become NO 1 in the

world.

This, I have to admit, is largely the case. It has it's positive aspects

and negative ones. Western colonialism brought a lot of benefits and

wreaked a lot of havoc throughout the world. In the global situation today

one can see a heightened polarization of these issues.

>Comparisong culture is based on harmony culture, which

has never

>wanted to be ruler over others instead to together harmony and adaptable to

>others.

The Tibetans, the Taiwanese?

>Perhaps, I am the goat, according to Chinese Horoscope zodiac, i like to

talk

>adaptable way. But i cannot see this group is understanding this. If the

>group wants to promote Chinese medicine, they must take a harmony culture

way to

>work with all member of the discussion group rather than conquring way to

put

>someone away.

Western and Chinese cultures differ in modes of diplomacy and probably in

customs of academic and professional discussion. Ideas conflict, adapt and

change with logic and persuasion, in an impersonal and harmonious process.

In Western music, harmony is created in a counterpoint of highly individual

voices.

In the West, there's a saying: " When in Rome, do as the Romans do " .

In the YiJing (Book of Changes), there's hexagram 56, " The Wanderer " , which

addresses appropriate behavior when away from home.

January 26, 2004

In a message dated 26/01/2004 02:42:06 GMT Standard Time, writes:

I do not sure I understand why you want know. Is that from polititian or medicine. As we know, Taiwanese has not had independent herbal system. As they are Chinese, they use Chinese culture and also use Chinese medicine. Tibetans has their only culture and therfore they tibetans herbal medicine is independent from CM. I have found it is also very good and we use them quite lots.

>The Tibetans, the Taiwanese?

The main reason for me to talk conqure and harmony cultures is that I want to get sharing with you and others in this idea: The conqure culture is like Dad's way requiring his child to be the NO 1 every time. The harmony culture is like Mum's way requiring her child to be friendly with others. You know child from single parent is not best way to the family. In medicine family, we need Dad and we also need Mum. Please do not us Dad way to rule Mum or vice versa.

Thanks

John Wu MD PhD MSc DCEH MGCTCM

Dr & HERBS Ltd, UK

www.drandherbs.com

0044 77 135 060 24

January 26, 2004

Over last 7 year, I have worked with over 200 CM doctors in the UK. There is no evdience that CM experts with good english can give better treatment.

However, it is very important that CM experts with good english is much better to learn western culture and medicine. For long term, I prefer to CM with good English but for the short term, not necessary.

Secondly, CM is human based medicine like court case, case by case. Therefore, group discussion to deal with a case, in which itnerepators and different experts together is the best way to provid CM services to situation outside of China. That is why we have focused on video conference way to link all experts from everyway to help one patient.

I agree, western guy should learn Chinese language then to learn Chinese medicine. We have stopped any teaching Chinese medicine courses in the UK but we start to teach chinese culture and Chinese language in local.

Thanks

John Wu MD PhD MSc DCEH MGCTCM

Dr & HERBS Ltd, UK

www.drandherbs.com

0044 77 135 060 24

January 26, 2004

Dr John Wu

In an ideal optimal world...... 'harmony' and thereby 'sharing' would seemingly be the perfect-way.......but certainly here in the U.S. we do not live in that ideal world. Hard evidence points to the political-way of power which is what IS existing. That doesn't mean we stop attempting to change it.

Further...you say that AP/DOM's shouldn't worry about their title. It's OK for practitioners of TCM/CM to be called 'consultants' or 'advisors' etc. - that's a very nice strategy......yet it is apparent that it is very easy for the profession-in-control to continue using their title designations such as MD and PhD. Why don't ALL MDs and/or PhDs voluntarily give-up their titles of 'doctor' and take-on the title of consultant in this well intentioned vision of 'harmony'? This is another hypothetical startegy as is yours and therefore a rhetorical question (not an attack on you). It is obvious that 99.9% of the MD profession would never in a million years give-up their title of 'doctor'. So before TCM/CM under-dogs ever give up the struggle for a level playing field...it would be a reasonable suggestion as a strategy for us to see MDs/PhDs throw their titles away and create a

There is an old cliche that what is good for the goose is good for the gander!!!!

Richard

In a message dated 1/26/2004 7:19:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, S888888888 writes:

In a message dated 26/01/2004 02:42:06 GMT Standard Time, writes:I do not sure I understand why you want know. Is that from polititian or medicine. As we know, Taiwanese has not had independent herbal system. As they are Chinese, they use Chinese culture and also use Chinese medicine. Tibetans has their only culture and therfore they tibetans herbal medicine is independent from CM. I have found it is also very good and we use them quite lots.

>The Tibetans, the Taiwanese?The main reason for me to talk conqure and harmony cultures is that I want to get sharing with you and others in this idea: The conqure culture is like Dad's way requiring his child to be the NO 1 every time. The harmony culture is like Mum's way requiring her child to be friendly with others. You know child from single parent is not best way to the family. In medicine family, we need Dad and we also need Mum. Please do not us Dad way to rule Mum or vice versa. ThanksJohn Wu MD PhD MSc DCEH MGCTCMDirectorDr & HERBS Ltd, UKwww.drandherbs.com0044 77 135 060 24

January 26, 2004

S888888888@a... wrote:

they require qualifited CM worker in the UK must have Good English

commond over college level, which might not be suitable for majority

of workers who learn from in China.

This is the same principle for Westerners wishing to study in China.

They must have an excellent grasp of the Chinese language. Many

mistakes towards diagnosis and treatment may be made if a person

cannot understand the language that is spoken in whatever country

they live in. This may have serious consequences for the patient and

the physician.

Attilio

January 26, 2004

S888888888@a... wrote:

> Over last 7 year, I have worked with over 200 CM doctors in the UK.

There is no evdience that CM experts with good english can give

better treatment.

>

> However, it is very important that CM experts with good english is

much better to learn western culture and medicine. For long term, I

prefer to CM with good English but for the short term, not necessary.

If there is a good interpreter present with the Chinese speaking

doctor and the English patient, then yes it shouldn't be a problem.

However, if one isn't present then it is a big problem. Of course

there will be misunderstandings, confusion and therefore incorrect

treatment to the detrimental effect to the patient and the doctor's

business.

On a separate note, if the non-British person studied Chinese

medicine in the UK, then they do not need to take the separate

English exam set by some associations.

Attilio

January 26, 2004

Dear Dr. Wu,

I cannot agree more with Attilio. It is essential for both doctor and

patient to speak the same language. If an interpreter is necessary, that

interpreter should be a true 'interpreter' and not someone who happens to

speak a bit of English (or a bit of Chinese - as the case may be) to fulfil

this role. The latter case happens so often in TCM outlets that it can be

very tiresome for customers trying to explain to the interpreter something

that he or she just knows is going to get completely garbled by the time it

reaches the doctor. Then 'on the way back' the doctor's comments very often

get drowned in a welter of explanations and justifications to the

interpreter, who may not have a complete grasp of TCM. This is sad and

incompetent scenario for any self respecting TCM practitioner to find

themselves having to endure.

It should be possible for any visitor to this country to learn enough

English in a few months, given the right teaching, to communicate

effectively with their patients. Failing that however, one would want the

interpreter to be a TCM student who can simply act as a channel for

communication between the TCM doctor and the patient. The TCM student in

such a role would be ideally suited because the experience would consolidate

their own learning; they would, as medical students be cognisant of

patients' confidentiality issues that are brought to the practice; moreover,

a student would not, hopefully, obscure or clutter the flow of information

between patient and doctor with their own need for elaboration or further

explanation.

Although much of a TCM diagnosis may be obtained by observation (pulse,

tongue, body condition & smell, person's manner) there must be some verbal

input 1. to 'fill in the gaps' where observation alone cannot provide

information; and 2. to give feedback to the patient in terms of his

diagnosis and other remedial measures. Taking prescribed medicines is one

thing, but counselling the patient on most likely a host of much needed

lifestyle changes cannot be achieved with a sufficient degree of success

(persuasion + confidence) in pidgin-English.

Sincerely,

Sammy.

[attiliodalberto]

26 January 2004 12:47

Chinese Medicine

Re: Herb Regulation and the Doctorate