Guest guest Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009  Hi Mike, thanks for your clarification. You are right that legally we are often bound to the standards of practice of western medicine, whether in the field of ethics or otherwise.  I see what you are saying now, and I restate my point which is that it is not correct to state that Chinese medical ethics precludes treatment of family members. CM ethics have to do with a case by case evaluation keeping in mind the principles of the Dao. Plain and simple.  Sorry for misreading your post,  Thanks,  Hugo  ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 Chinese Traditional Medicine Monday, 22 June, 2009 19:32:17 TCM - Hugo, Not sure what you stating and not trying to diminish anything. The fact is that we are held to the medical side of ethics by our own licensing boards. Ethical clauses are found in our state acupuncture statutes. What I have found is that many practitioners may not be aware of their own state statutes. You mentioned historical understanding of ethics, which is a fascinating area but then concluded that this history allows us some laterality. My point is that this is simply not true. In this one, we are all doctors and responsible as such. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine subincor Mon, 22 Jun 2009 23:08:47 +0000 Re: Was: Spouse/insurance - Now: Medical Ethics                     Hi Mike: Actually our ethics are different. We are legally bound to follow the laws in our nations and states. Please don't diminish or ignore the points which I have made in good faith. Chinese medical ethics are distinct from western medical ethics. Period. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 Chinese Traditional Medicine Monday, 22 June, 2009 18:53:11 RE: Was: Spouse/insurance - Now: Medical Ethics Hugo, Actually, they are. This is part of my point as well and what Joy was pointing out as well. As OM professionals, we often make excuses for questionable behaviors and simply think that we are not medical doctors, therefore we do not need to follow these rules, but we do. I think that most state acupuncture statutes have clauses about ethics and punishment for not following them or maybe that was just the two states that I happen to have acupuncture licenses in. I have heard gasping from many LAc's that do not appear to understand our legal responsibilities. The AAC does a good job at their seminars of dispelling this myth. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine subincor Mon, 22 Jun 2009 17:32:03 +0000 Re: Was: Spouse/insurance - Now: Medical Ethics                     Hi Mike; I agree that there is a legalistic issue which I mentioned in my post, but the bulk of my post was referencing the idea that our medical ethics are the same as western medical ethics, which they are not.  Thanks, Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 Chinese Traditional Medicine Monday, 22 June, 2009 12:41:39 RE: Was: Spouse/insurance - Now: Medical Ethics Hugo, There appears to be some confusion of historical with current ethical understanding, which by the way is established by the various professions. From my understanding the issue here is related to insurance reimbursements, and ethics would suggest that while treatment of our family can be done, it cannot be billed to a third party payor. The scenario is important here for our complete understanding. Our profession has had a lot of trouble doing the correct things in the past, largely due to our anti-establishment mentality. We want to be artists and not just technicians.  Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine subincor Mon, 22 Jun 2009 16:24:41 +0000 Was: Spouse/insurance - Now: Medical Ethics                     Hi Joy and all: This is a troublesome topic, because it is easy to get into this cross-cultural business. Western Medical ethics are not Chinese Medical ethics. The medical ethics of a court / imperial doctor were not the ethics of the mendicant taoist healer. The ethics of our uptight modern western profession are severely tainted by a historical influx of scientists from the engineering, physical and chemical sciences who deeply believed in the separation of the person from the body and further had an ansolutely abysmal understanding of the human heart and human warmth. These are the same people who believed animals (including our closest relatives the apes) to be mere machines with no ability to feel pain or emotion and who also did not believe that human beings possessed soul. This brought a deep level of depersonalisation to the modern western field. We see it today in standard neurology where the direction of causation is bottom up - i.e. the substrate generates consciousness - consciousness is nothing more than brain chemicals interacting. These aren't actually " medical " ethics, is what I am saying. The chinese, in their deep wisdom, understood that ethics were not about a set of fixed rules. Witness the famous story regarding the celibate teacher who broke the rule of not touching women when he picked up a young lady and carried her across the stream. I hope he was disciplined by his association (turned in, of course, by his shocked and outraged disciple). This is a great story about projection and transference and how dangerous fixation and obsession are. If we talk about ethics in terms of legalism, however, we can find fruitful territory in terms of the defense and protection of our profession, as well as about insurance and such. By the way, it actually slipped my mind, interestingly: I am the primary caregiver for my father. Turn me in. I wonder how old family lineage doctors managed the treatment of their families, especially if they were the only doctor within a day or two's walk? I can't imagine the classical martial arts scholar doctor not treating his son or daughter when they were sick as children because " they were his family " . In fact, I would imagine that it is the parents who would be most deeply familiar with the subtleties of their children's dynamics and would therefore be the most prepared to take care of them to best effect. I also think modern " medical ethics " are an outgrowth of the logistics of a system where a collision is occurring between insufficient numbers of medical therapists, the constant and looming threat of litigation, a growing number of fractured and dysfunctional families and a huge emphasis on the supremacy of the individual. I mean, kids can send their parents to jail and divorce them and all manner of unethical stuff. All these issues regarding lack of trust. But we have psychologists these days to make up for lack of community strength. I'm not sure if it is working. Again, I don't see the link between " their " medical ethics and " our " medical ethics. Interestingly, in latin culture the family takes care of the family. And if there is a doctor who is not in the family who is taking care of the family, then that doctor becomes part of the family (how else do you ensure accountability? interesting). In my opinion, modern medical ethics are deeply confused and insidiously damaging to human relationships. Thoughts? Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ Joy Keller <JKellerLAc Chinese Medicine Saturday, 20 June, 2009 2:23:30 Re: Spouse/insurance Medical professional ethics dictate that we should not treat family members unless it is in an emergency or short-term situation where no other care provider is available. There is a great online course about our medical professional ethics at Blue Poppy that details all the reasons why (too long for an email here) as well as all the other professional ethics to which we are bound. Btw, this isn't just about LAc's. This is any doctor in any field not treating family members. We (meaning all licensed health care providers) are bound by both legal and professional ethics. Violations in either arena are grounds for disciplinary action that could result in the loss of licensure. I'm not saying that people don't treat their own family members, just that professional ethics state that we should not (or is it " must " not?). J On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 8:33 PM, heylaurag <heylaurag (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote: > Hi, I was wondering if anyone knows if its ok to bill insurance companies > for treating family members/spouses? I asked a customer service agent at > AETNA and she said there was no rule against it from AETNA but mentioned > that there may be an ethical standard in the profession. Anyone know? I > treat my husband all the time and so it would be nice to be paid for it. > > Thanks! > > Laura > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ ___ Joy Keller, LAc, Dipl.OM Ramona Acupuncture & Integrative Medicine Clinic Phone: (760) 654-1040 Fax: (760) 654-4019 www.RamonaAcupunctu re.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 I found it interesting that the MD have no problem treating their own family and themselves, it they decide to. The real kicker is that you must disclose other options, risks, etc. The patient must also be allowed to ask questions and can reject care if they so choose. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine subincor Tue, 23 Jun 2009 01:36:01 +0000 Re: TCM - Hi Mike, thanks for your clarification. You are right that legally we are often bound to the standards of practice of western medicine, whether in the field of ethics or otherwise. I see what you are saying now, and I restate my point which is that it is not correct to state that Chinese medical ethics precludes treatment of family members. CM ethics have to do with a case by case evaluation keeping in mind the principles of the Dao. Plain and simple. Sorry for misreading your post, Thanks, Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 Chinese Traditional Medicine Monday, 22 June, 2009 19:32:17 TCM - Hugo, Not sure what you stating and not trying to diminish anything. The fact is that we are held to the medical side of ethics by our own licensing boards. Ethical clauses are found in our state acupuncture statutes. What I have found is that many practitioners may not be aware of their own state statutes. You mentioned historical understanding of ethics, which is a fascinating area but then concluded that this history allows us some laterality. My point is that this is simply not true. In this one, we are all doctors and responsible as such. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine subincor Mon, 22 Jun 2009 23:08:47 +0000 Re: Was: Spouse/insurance - Now: Medical Ethics Hi Mike: Actually our ethics are different. We are legally bound to follow the laws in our nations and states. Please don't diminish or ignore the points which I have made in good faith. Chinese medical ethics are distinct from western medical ethics. Period. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 Chinese Traditional Medicine Monday, 22 June, 2009 18:53:11 RE: Was: Spouse/insurance - Now: Medical Ethics Hugo, Actually, they are. This is part of my point as well and what Joy was pointing out as well. As OM professionals, we often make excuses for questionable behaviors and simply think that we are not medical doctors, therefore we do not need to follow these rules, but we do. I think that most state acupuncture statutes have clauses about ethics and punishment for not following them or maybe that was just the two states that I happen to have acupuncture licenses in. I have heard gasping from many LAc's that do not appear to understand our legal responsibilities. The AAC does a good job at their seminars of dispelling this myth. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine subincor Mon, 22 Jun 2009 17:32:03 +0000 Re: Was: Spouse/insurance - Now: Medical Ethics Hi Mike; I agree that there is a legalistic issue which I mentioned in my post, but the bulk of my post was referencing the idea that our medical ethics are the same as western medical ethics, which they are not. Thanks, Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 Chinese Traditional Medicine Monday, 22 June, 2009 12:41:39 RE: Was: Spouse/insurance - Now: Medical Ethics Hugo, There appears to be some confusion of historical with current ethical understanding, which by the way is established by the various professions. From my understanding the issue here is related to insurance reimbursements, and ethics would suggest that while treatment of our family can be done, it cannot be billed to a third party payor. The scenario is important here for our complete understanding. Our profession has had a lot of trouble doing the correct things in the past, largely due to our anti-establishment mentality. We want to be artists and not just technicians. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine subincor Mon, 22 Jun 2009 16:24:41 +0000 Was: Spouse/insurance - Now: Medical Ethics Hi Joy and all: This is a troublesome topic, because it is easy to get into this cross-cultural business. Western Medical ethics are not Chinese Medical ethics. The medical ethics of a court / imperial doctor were not the ethics of the mendicant taoist healer. The ethics of our uptight modern western profession are severely tainted by a historical influx of scientists from the engineering, physical and chemical sciences who deeply believed in the separation of the person from the body and further had an ansolutely abysmal understanding of the human heart and human warmth. These are the same people who believed animals (including our closest relatives the apes) to be mere machines with no ability to feel pain or emotion and who also did not believe that human beings possessed soul. This brought a deep level of depersonalisation to the modern western field. We see it today in standard neurology where the direction of causation is bottom up - i.e. the substrate generates consciousness - consciousness is nothing more than brain chemicals interacting. These aren't actually " medical " ethics, is what I am saying. The chinese, in their deep wisdom, understood that ethics were not about a set of fixed rules. Witness the famous story regarding the celibate teacher who broke the rule of not touching women when he picked up a young lady and carried her across the stream. I hope he was disciplined by his association (turned in, of course, by his shocked and outraged disciple). This is a great story about projection and transference and how dangerous fixation and obsession are. If we talk about ethics in terms of legalism, however, we can find fruitful territory in terms of the defense and protection of our profession, as well as about insurance and such. By the way, it actually slipped my mind, interestingly: I am the primary caregiver for my father. Turn me in. I wonder how old family lineage doctors managed the treatment of their families, especially if they were the only doctor within a day or two's walk? I can't imagine the classical martial arts scholar doctor not treating his son or daughter when they were sick as children because " they were his family " . In fact, I would imagine that it is the parents who would be most deeply familiar with the subtleties of their children's dynamics and would therefore be the most prepared to take care of them to best effect. I also think modern " medical ethics " are an outgrowth of the logistics of a system where a collision is occurring between insufficient numbers of medical therapists, the constant and looming threat of litigation, a growing number of fractured and dysfunctional families and a huge emphasis on the supremacy of the individual. I mean, kids can send their parents to jail and divorce them and all manner of unethical stuff. All these issues regarding lack of trust. But we have psychologists these days to make up for lack of community strength. I'm not sure if it is working. Again, I don't see the link between " their " medical ethics and " our " medical ethics. Interestingly, in latin culture the family takes care of the family. And if there is a doctor who is not in the family who is taking care of the family, then that doctor becomes part of the family (how else do you ensure accountability? interesting). In my opinion, modern medical ethics are deeply confused and insidiously damaging to human relationships. Thoughts? Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ Joy Keller <JKellerLAc Chinese Medicine Saturday, 20 June, 2009 2:23:30 Re: Spouse/insurance Medical professional ethics dictate that we should not treat family members unless it is in an emergency or short-term situation where no other care provider is available. There is a great online course about our medical professional ethics at Blue Poppy that details all the reasons why (too long for an email here) as well as all the other professional ethics to which we are bound. Btw, this isn't just about LAc's. This is any doctor in any field not treating family members. We (meaning all licensed health care providers) are bound by both legal and professional ethics. Violations in either arena are grounds for disciplinary action that could result in the loss of licensure. I'm not saying that people don't treat their own family members, just that professional ethics state that we should not (or is it " must " not?). J On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 8:33 PM, heylaurag <heylaurag (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote: > Hi, I was wondering if anyone knows if its ok to bill insurance companies > for treating family members/spouses? I asked a customer service agent at > AETNA and she said there was no rule against it from AETNA but mentioned > that there may be an ethical standard in the profession. Anyone know? I > treat my husband all the time and so it would be nice to be paid for it. > > Thanks! > > Laura > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ ___ Joy Keller, LAc, Dipl.OM Ramona Acupuncture & Integrative Medicine Clinic Phone: (760) 654-1040 Fax: (760) 654-4019 www.RamonaAcupunctu re.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2009 Report Share Posted August 19, 2009 Dear Dr. Chu, What is the fee for Saturday only? Thanks Karin Karin Tetlow, L.Ac. 845 North 27th Street Philadelphia, PA 19130 215-978-0844 ktetlow On Aug 18, 2009, at 8:23 PM, Robert Chu wrote: > Dear colleague, > > I will be in NYC teaching Saturday and Sunday, September 12 & 13, > 2009! > > I hope to see you there! > > In NYC! Yi Jing Acupuncture and Clinical for > Difficult > Cases September 12- 13, 2009 > > Saturday-Sunday, September 12- 13, 2009, 9 am – 5:30 pm, early > registration > on Saturday, September 12, 2009 for walk in registration 8:30 am – > 9:00 am > > 15 Category One CA CEU's approved (7.5 CEU's per day) > > These classes are open to Acupuncturists of all levels! > > Day one: Yi Jing Acupuncture as taught by Robert Chu, PhD, L.Ac., QME > > Learn Yi Jing Acupuncture system, with the proper principles and > concepts, > that made Dr. Chen Chao, founder of the Yi Jing Yin Yang Balance > Method, one > of Taiwan's greatest Acupuncturists in this generation. > > Students and practitioners will be taught the most essential points > to use > clinically for Neuromusculoskeletal and Internal Medicine problems. > > Point location and demonstration will be a part of this class. > > Day Two: Clinical for Difficult Cases > > This lecture will focus on point prescriptions from Master Tung, Yi > Jing > Acupuncture and Optimal Acupuncture systems, and herbals for > Difficult cases > seen in the clinic. We will discuss multiple treatment strategies and > herbal Rx's for these types of cases. > > Increase your Clinical Effectiveness! > > · Speed your clinical diagnosis utilizing the classical > acupuncture > methods and get instantaneous results > · Expand your range of treatment options > · Enhance your treatments in the clinic > · Improve your practice with Yi Jing Acupuncture Single needle, > 3/6, and > circuit methods > · Learn it all clearly by a native English speaker who bridges > East and > West > · Discover proven clinical procedures for pain and internal > medicine > problems > · Improve your acupuncture skills > · Open to Acupuncturists of all levels > > Robert Chu, PhD, L.Ac., QME specializes in Master Tung, Yi Jing and > Optimal > Acupuncture for treating pain, Neuromusculoskeletal disorders, and > internal > medicine problems. An exciting and dynamic speaker, has been > studying the > Martial and Chinese healing arts since childhood. In mid 2005, he > founded > ITARA (International Tung's Acupuncture Research Association), a > non-political organization devoted to the preservation, > standardization, > education, and research of Tung's Acupuncture, offering classes for > the > spread and advancement of Classical Acupuncture systems. > In July of 2004, Dr. Chu was the Acupuncturist to Olympic athletes > at the > Olympic Trials held in Sacramento, CA. He has lectured throughout > the United > States, Canada and Europe on Master Tung's Acupuncture and the Yi Jing > Acupuncture of Chen Chao. > > To Register, please call (626) 487 -1815 or email chusauli > > $325/2 days, students $250/2 days, $25 discount for early > registration by > August 15, 2009, No refunds. Seating is limited! > > Location: 1 Union Square West, Suite 715, New York, NY 10003 > > > > -- > Robert Chu, PhD, L.Ac. QME > chusauli > > See my webpages at: www.chusaulei.com > > -- > Robert Chu, PhD, L.Ac. QME > chusauli > > See my webpages at: www.chusaulei.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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