Guest guest Posted December 9, 2003 Report Share Posted December 9, 2003 Hi All, & Hi Shmuel, > Does Yin Qi ascend or descend? We know that by symptoms Yin > (heavier) descends and Yang (lighter) ascends. Yet, Yin Qi arises > from below (Earth) and ascends, i.e. in KI, LV, SP Channels, etc. > How come? Let me reverse the question. Qipo tells me that the answers to both questions may be similar: Does Yang Qi ascend or descend? We know that by symptoms Yang (lighter) rises and Yin (heavier) descends. Yet, Yang Qi arises from above (LU Metal) and descends, i.e. in BL, ST, GB Channels, etc. How come? There is Yin in Yang, and Yang in Yin. Ascending is the Yang aspect of Yin; Descending is the Yin aspect of Yang. Comments? > The Ko and Sheng cycles are actually so intricate in their mutual > correspndences that you can find a " proof " to almost any > assumption that you make by using one of these see-saw > correspondences of these cycles. Yin-Yang Theory is also flexible; it allows for change, movement, transformation and paradox. The myriad things are divisible, and their parts are divisible to infinity. But that Law was stated before Avogadro's Law. Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2003 Report Share Posted December 9, 2003 Phil, the question may be reversed as you say, this is self-evident. Yet, your answer is not the answer to my question. Sorry... Some other reader may take the challenge? Shmuel-------- > Let me reverse the question. Qipo tells me that the answers to > both questions may be similar: > > Does Yang Qi ascend or descend? We know that by symptoms > Yang (lighter) rises and Yin (heavier) descends. Yet, Yang Qi > arises from above (LU Metal) and descends, i.e. in BL, ST, GB > Channels, etc. How come? > > There is Yin in Yang, and Yang in Yin. Ascending is the Yang > aspect of Yin; Descending is the Yin aspect of Yang. Comments? > > > The Ko and Sheng cycles are actually so intricate in their mutual > > correspndences that you can find a " proof " to almost any > > assumption that you make by using one of these see-saw > > correspondences of these cycles. > > Yin-Yang Theory is also flexible; it allows for change, movement, > transformation and paradox. The myriad things are divisible, and > their parts are divisible to infinity. But that Law was stated before > Avogadro's Law. > > > > > Best regards, > > Email: <@e...> > > WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland > Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] > > HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland > Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] > WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2003 Report Share Posted December 9, 2003 Chinese Medicine , " Shmuel Halevi Ph.D " <halevis@a...> wrote: > Phil, the question may be reversed as you say, this is self- evident. > Yet, your answer is not the answer to my question. Sorry... > Some other reader may take the challenge? > > Shmuel-------- > It's a matter of polarity and magnetism. Opposites attract. Yang/up...yin/down...the two shall meet in the middle.... Like rain. The sun/yang's heat... vaporizing water/yin...transforms into yang/steam....returns to water/rain/yin....on and on..and on.. No? Fernando Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2003 Report Share Posted December 9, 2003 It is very nice Fernando, indeed. (also poetic). But, no. This is still not the answer. Any more? Shmuel........... > > Phil, the question may be reversed as you say, this is self- > evident. > > Yet, your answer is not the answer to my question. Sorry... > > Some other reader may take the challenge? > > > > Shmuel-------- > > > > It's a matter of polarity and magnetism. Opposites attract. > Yang/up...yin/down...the two shall meet in the middle.... > > Like rain. The sun/yang's heat... vaporizing water/yin...transforms > into yang/steam....returns to water/rain/yin....on and on..and on.. > > No? > > Fernando Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2003 Report Share Posted December 9, 2003 Ok, my turn. I have a few ideas. 1. The Liver is a Yin organ regulates Qi, upward aswell as downward. 2. Blood is Yin and is everywhere in the body and is moved by Qi which is Yang. 3. The body is mainly made up of water which is Yin, so Yin doesn't need to travel up as its already there all the time. Attilio " Shmuel Halevi Ph.D " <halevis@a...> wrote: > It is very nice Fernando, indeed. (also poetic). But, no. This is > still not the answer. > Any more? > > Shmuel........... > > > > > Phil, the question may be reversed as you say, this is self- > > evident. > > > Yet, your answer is not the answer to my question. Sorry... > > > Some other reader may take the challenge? > > > > > > Shmuel-------- > > > > > > > It's a matter of polarity and magnetism. Opposites attract. > > Yang/up...yin/down...the two shall meet in the middle.... > > > > Like rain. The sun/yang's heat... vaporizing > water/yin...transforms > > into yang/steam....returns to water/rain/yin....on and on..and on.. > > > > No? > > > > Fernando Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2003 Report Share Posted December 9, 2003 Wow... I admire your invetiveness guys, really. If I hadn't known the answer I would have " bought " any of these beautiful ideas. But, alas, no again. Just a hint, to make the path a little lighted: the answer lies in the difference between war and peace... (in the body of course). Shmuel............ > Ok, my turn. I have a few ideas. > > 1. The Liver is a Yin organ regulates Qi, upward aswell as downward. > > 2. Blood is Yin and is everywhere in the body and is moved by Qi > which is Yang. > > 3. The body is mainly made up of water which is Yin, so Yin doesn't > need to travel up as its already there all the time. > > Attilio > > " Shmuel Halevi Ph.D " <halevis@a...> wrote: > > It is very nice Fernando, indeed. (also poetic). But, no. This is > > still not the answer. > > Any more? > > > > Shmuel........... > > > > > > > > Phil, the question may be reversed as you say, this is self- > > > evident. > > > > Yet, your answer is not the answer to my question. Sorry... > > > > Some other reader may take the challenge? > > > > > > > > Shmuel-------- > > > > > > > > > > It's a matter of polarity and magnetism. Opposites attract. > > > Yang/up...yin/down...the two shall meet in the middle.... > > > > > > Like rain. The sun/yang's heat... vaporizing > > water/yin...transforms > > > into yang/steam....returns to water/rain/yin....on and on..and > on.. > > > > > > No? > > > > > > Fernando Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2003 Report Share Posted December 9, 2003 hi, all it's unbelievable that so many practitioners still has questions about the most fundamental theory, yinyang thoery, and can not explain this theory in detail. god bless partients. syho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Hi Shmuel I've kinda let this post slide and can't seem to find the original post. This question - or a similar one - always confused the students at our school when trying to explain yin and yang. The way I explain it is to say that one needs to consider two things here. One is a yin state, and the other a yin function (the same with yang). Now yin as a state sits quietly, is down, is dark, etc. A Yin function is what yang does in order to become yin, ie changing state from being active to calming down, being light to becoming darker, being up to moving downward. Also bearing in mind that extreme yang has no choice but to change into yin. The extreme yang state changes in yin via a yin function, while the extreme yin state changes into yang via a yang function. So a yin function has the property of ascending. Does this help, or at least make any sense to you? fred Shmuel Halevi Ph.D [halevis]Tuesday, December 09, 2003 5:26 PMChinese Medicine Subject: Re: Does Yin Ascend?It is very nice Fernando, indeed. (also poetic). But, no. This is still not the answer.Any more?Shmuel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 continuing on with my previous post.... Hi > Does Yin Qi ascend or descend? We know that by symptoms Yin> (heavier) descends and Yang (lighter) ascends. Yet, Yin Qi arises> from below (Earth) and ascends, i.e. in KI, LV, SP Channels, etc.> How come? [Fred Albrecht] Ah, found your post. When I look at the above paragraph I see that Yin does not descends, it is descended, ie the symptom is already in a yin state. A yang symptom is already in the yang state and is ascended (as in your example). Now, Yin Qi is an active thing, its more a function than a state, so therefor Yin Qi ascends (by means of a yang function) in order to become/nourish/transform into yang. fred Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 ...... on a heavenly level: yang decends from the heavens onto earth (ex: rain which is yin but its action yang falls from the sky) on and earth level yin rises to the heavens on a man level the decending yang from the heavens meet with the rising yin from the earth to make man. michele Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Chinese Medicine , " Fred Albrecht " <fred@w...> wrote: > Hi Shmuel > > I've kinda let this post slide and can't seem to find the original post. > This question - or a similar one - always confused the students at our > school when trying to explain yin and yang. The way I explain it is to say > that one needs to consider two things here. One is a yin state, and the > other a yin function (the same with yang). Now yin as a state sits quietly, > is down, is dark, etc. A Yin function is what yang does in order to become > yin, ie changing state from being active to calming down, being light to > becoming darker, being up to moving downward. Also bearing in mind that > extreme yang has no choice but to change into yin. The extreme yang state > changes in yin via a yin function, while the extreme yin state changes into > yang via a yang function. So a yin function has the property of ascending. > Does this help, or at least make any sense to you? > > > fred hi, it seems that more questions about yin and yang always confused the students further when trying to explain yin and yang. is the theory not be able to be explained? or is the theory not mature enough? or we don't know the yinyang theory enough? or ....... if students can not grasp the basic theory, how can they know how to give cure to patient? if the extreme yang has no choice but to change into yin, and the extreme yin has no choice but to change into yang, ...... does it mean that medicial cure is unnecessary to patients just only because the yin and yang will be balanced; the extreme yang has no choice but to change into yin, and the extreme yin has no choice but to change into yang? syho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 if the extreme yang has no choice but to change into yin, and the extreme yin has no choice but to change into yang, ......does it mean that medicial cure is unnecessary to patients just only because the yin and yang will be balanced; the extreme yang has no choice but to change into yin, and the extreme yin has no choice but to change into yang?syho Hi Syho, In Western physiology and biochemistry we are taught that "chemical equilibrium is death" and "balanced homeostasis is life". Thus, living at extreme imbalances of yin or yang is living very close to "equilibrium" or death. You will likely see manifestations of extreme yin and yang conditions as people become extremely imbalanced as they approach death ... the final equilibrium. Keeping this in mind ... you want to move away from equilibrium (assuming you want to live) ... moving toward a balanced "steady state" of yin and yang. A balance of inward flow and outward flow that is uninhibited and synchronous. In this regard Western physiology and taoist medicine seem to agree: taoists look for balance, synchronicity and the uninhibited flow of Qi. As to the nature of Yin ... the Yin of the year is upon us ... here in the northern hemisphere. Does the winter ascend? Does the interior or inward ascend? Seems a twisted pleasure indeed. Emmanuel Segmen Merritt College, Asia Natural Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 syho_real [syho]Wednesday, December 10, 2003 10:50 AMChinese Medicine Subject: Re: Does Yin Ascend? hi,it seems that more questions about yin and yang always confused thestudents further when trying to explain yin and yang. is the theorynot be able to be explained? or is the theory not mature enough? or wedon't know the yinyang theory enough? or .......if students can not grasp the basic theory, how can they know how togive cure to patient? [Fred Albrecht] Speaking for myself, it's easier to grok (loosely to understand, more descriptively to integrate) yin and yang than trying to explain it to someone else. I just had to filter through my teachers words until I oneday groked it too. And thinking back on how I was as a student <ouch>... The theory is mature, we just need to integrate it. That's why learning TCM theory is not a weekend course (I sincerely hope not!). I do my best to give as many examples in my discussion of yin and yang with the theory, and share with them my thoughts on how I as student managed to eventually grok yin and yang. I can lead them to understanding, but I can't make them understand. But it is such a great feeling when you feel the penny drops and the student's eyes lights up and you can almost hear the gears finally turning with the thought "It's really that simple!". if the extreme yang has no choice but to change into yin, and theextreme yin has no choice but to change into yang, ......[Fred Albrecht] Where do you determine the level of yin and yang? How extreme does yin need to be in order to be in an absolute yin state? When do you have extreme dampness for example? When you are just a little bloated with excess fluid, or when you literally ooze water and phlegm and puss, or when you are water, or when you are dead for that matter (no yang left) <g>? There are always levels of yang within yin. The absolute yin and yang is unstable, moving spontaneously into its opposite once it reaches its extreme state (look at the yin yang sign). The state in which the patient is in is seldom (and take this with a big pinch of salt) in an extreme yin or yang state. There is more likely just an imbalance of the two with one a little more than the other. This is where excess yang and deficiency yang theory comes in. Examples could be heat stroke where there is excess heat, compared to a yin deficiency merely causing symptoms of heat, and fever turning into cold shivers. does it mean that medicial cure is unnecessary to patients just onlybecause the yin and yang will be balanced; the extreme yang has nochoice but to change into yin, and the extreme yin has no choice butto change into yang? To comment on your last paragraph though. I don't believe that we can cure anything, whether with medicine or with acupuncture. We can merely assist in bringing that body back to a balance, and changing the clients mindset is a big influence on whether a change will take place or not. If the client does not deep down want to be in balance then he won't be. What you as practitioner might be able to do is bring temporary relief, but if the consciousness does not change, the symptoms will simply manifest again (or manifest in a different form). An example, if a client has spleen yang deficiency and keeps on eating a tub of icecream per day, every day, no amount of needles or pressure points will do any good. The client needs to become his own "cure" by understanding why the body is in the state its in. Why should people still have liver cancer if the entire liver replaces itself in I think two months? Why does the cancerous cells not simply die off and be replaced by new cells? The consciousness of the liver official needs to change before a complete cure will take place. But I'm getting way off topic here... And who nows how long the body will take to right its own yin and yang balance? May you to grok yin and yang, and when you do, please explain it to someone else. imho fred Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Chinese Medicine , " Emmanuel Segmen " <susegmen@i...> wrote: > Hi Syho, > > In Western physiology and biochemistry we are taught that " chemical equilibrium is death " and " balanced homeostasis is life " . Thus, living at extreme imbalances of yin or yang is living very close to " equilibrium " or death. You will likely see manifestations of extreme yin and yang conditions as people become extremely imbalanced as they approach death ... the final equilibrium. Keeping this in mind ... you want to move away from equilibrium (assuming you want to live) ... moving toward a balanced " steady state " of yin and yang. A balance of inward flow and outward flow that is uninhibited and synchronous. In this regard Western physiology and taoist medicine seem to agree: taoists look for balance, synchronicity and the uninhibited flow of Qi. > > As to the nature of Yin ... the Yin of the year is upon us ... here in the northern hemisphere. Does the winter ascend? Does the interior or inward ascend? Seems a twisted pleasure indeed. > > Emmanuel Segmen > Merritt College, Asia Natural hi, we still have not solved questions about yinyang theory, and you bring the other questions. should we use Western physiology and biochemistry to grasp the chinese yinyang theory? should we use religious physiology and medicine? and, do you think you make all questions complicated before we solve questions. do you think your explanations of northern hemisphere confused students further? how about southern hemisphere? do you think that your questions about winter confuse students further and further? would you please tell us how toaist physiology explain the different climates between two hemispheres by yin yang theory. syho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Chinese Medicine , " Fred Albrecht " <fred@w...> wrote: > > [Fred Albrecht] > understand. But it is such a great feeling when you feel the penny drops > and the student's eyes lights up and you can almost hear the gears finally > turning with the thought " It's really that simple! " . > the question is why we can not let students understand the yinyang theory at a time, and why we add a bit each time when they asked their questions? the question is that when students add up these bits, and these bits conflict with each other and these bits confuse students much more. >> if the extreme yang has no choice but to change into yin, and the >> extreme yin has no choice but to change into yang, ...... >> > [Fred Albrecht] Where do you determine the level of yin and yang? How > extreme does yin need to be in order to be in an absolute yin state? When > do you have extreme dampness for example? When you are another question rises. and we should solve this question first. quote from previous article: if the extreme yang has no choice but to change into yin, and the extreme yin has no choice but to change into yang, ...... where do we determine the extreme of yang and the extreme of yin? do you mean there is something wrong on this theory? > > > fred Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Hi Syho Are you still studying? Could you explain to me how YOU see yin and yang. fred syho_real [syho]Wednesday, December 10, 2003 3:06 PMChinese Medicine Subject: Re: Does Yin Ascend?Chinese Medicine , "Fred Albrecht"<fred@w...> wrote:> > [Fred Albrecht]> understand. But it is such a great feeling when you feel the pennydrops> and the student's eyes lights up and you can almost hear the gearsfinally> turning with the thought "It's really that simple!".> the question is why we can not let students understand the yinyangtheory at a time, and why we add a bit each time when they asked theirquestions? the question is that when students add up these bits, andthese bits conflict with each other and these bits confuse studentsmuch more.>> if the extreme yang has no choice but to change into yin, and the>> extreme yin has no choice but to change into yang, ......>> > [Fred Albrecht] Where do you determine the level of yin and yang? How> extreme does yin need to be in order to be in an absolute yin state?When> do you have extreme dampness for example? When you are another question rises. and we should solve this question first. quote from previous article:if the extreme yang has no choice but to change into yin, and theextreme yin has no choice but to change into yang, ......where do we determine the extreme of yang and the extreme of yin? doyou mean there is something wrong on this theory?> > > fredMembership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ click ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. To send an email to<Chinese Medicine- > from the email account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but will still recieve messages for a few days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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