Guest guest Posted December 7, 2003 Report Share Posted December 7, 2003 I thought it might be of interest to see.....how the CM network treats others within the profession. Here is a blocked response to an e-mail I sent. It's fine for them to send me their e-mail but not vice-versa. No wonder many don;t go there anymore. Richard ------------------------ Posting of your message titled "Re: [Chinesemedicine-network]Cartesian Split"has been rejected by the list moderator. The moderator gave thefollowing reason for rejecting your request:"No reason given" RF to CM Net 12/7/03 I have mostly stayed in the background........for I too.... am very busy with regulation 'proposals' and all kinds of other people's political manuevers. On an everyday basis in the material aspect of this physical world.......we will be kissing our bottoms good-bye if important rights including to practice in freedom are not protected. No doubt most do not see this.....and.....then it will be too late after we wake-up. The nasty politics and manipulations that go on right under our noses (even internally from wolves in sheeps clothing) is arrogant, obnoxious, over-controlling, condescending and just down-right rude and a violation of our birth-right(s). I understand that most practitioners care not to be involved in this type or 'end' of the battle nor can they 'stomach' it.........yet 'this work' needs doing and it will be accomplished even against all the odds. That's the ongoing battle between what has been portrayed as 'good versus evil'. On one level of perspective....'no-thing matters' while simultaneously on another level of perspective...'everything matters'. The freedoms that we'all wish will not exist if these rights are not protected. There is an international monolithic paradigm nature at work which moves ever so slowly - day by day.....towards the suppression and destruction of what we are about. And if you believe not....then what can be said..... is that the ether has gotten to you or you are terribly naieve. Not that that is bad.....it just IS. It has taken over 4 long hard years of expending what is translated from Sanskrt as the 'energy of determination' to bring the soon filing of a U.S. Federal Anti-trust RICO (racketeering) lawsuit against the powers who are against the profession of wholistic health traditions (Acupuncture/Oriental medicine). The same is true of the Federal Acupuncture Bill (HR 1477) which has labored during the past ten years and moved nowhere. This year it's time and its being moved. Whether these acts will bring the desired result.....only the one knows. Yet it continues to be one heck of a blissfull path. You'all can read if you care to..........the recent decision adjudicated by the Florida Administrative Law Judge regarding a 'pro se' case against the Florida Department of Health. http://www.doah.state.fl.us/ros/2003/03-2964.PDF You may not understand the intricacies of this case as the web goes way back to 1998 and before with the same players and forces. Where have the elders of our profession been? What we did for the profession yesterday doesn't go very far for today. We need to accomplish and make headway ---- everyday --- so that the future of new practitioners WILL be bright. The bill of goods that has been sold to the practitioners that the Masters Degree means something is of of value.....one one level....that's just one huge 'story' spun by the 'bubber-meisters'. Recently two colleagues of mine took their accredited Masters degree to regional colleges and were the laughing stock. One wanted to enter Chiropractic school and the other wanted to go back and obtain her ARNP degree. Both were emphatically told the degree was useless. The Masters degree in AP/OM outside of our over-controlled walls is useless and more inportantly unrecognized and with disdain. Just a small group of us fights this part of the battle while the profession at large sits on its butt expecting to be handed everything on a silver platter. The not-so-funny joke will be on us ALL if we are not a lot more supportive and realistic in all arenas. Richard A. Freiberg, OMD, NMD Founder/Director of AOMNC Acupuncture & Oriental Medicine National Coalition www.aomnc.com Dear Z'ev, I agree with you, and thank you for your excellent quotations. In my opinion, what we're talking about is of the essence, but it's almost unimaginable that most people will know what we're talking about. The cleverness, scepticism in the worst sense, materialism, reductionism, etc. that is cultivated in our society and educational system, simultaneously 'cultures out' (a useful phrase) the understanding, which must be within one's own being, of what we're on about. There's probably an apt Sufi story about this - I can think of one pretty close, called 'When the Waters Were Changed' in Idries Shah's 'Tale of the Dervishes', but in the end, the wise man who refused to drink the water that made people go mad, 'could not bear the loneliness of living, behaving and thinking in a different way from everyone else. He drank the new water, and became like the rest. Then he forgot all about his special store of water, and his fellows began to look upon him as a madman who had been miraculously restored to sanity.' Maybe the way to restore ourselves to sanity will be to regard CM theory as at best empirical, but ultimately mystical, and not compatible with modern science, and in need of biomedical explication. But that ain't what I'm going to do, nor I imagine, the people who find refuge in this discussion group! I'm sorry that I'm so tied up with precisely these issues at this time, in the form of regulation proposals in the UK, that I don't have much time to participate in these discussions at the moment. Best wishes, Wainwright Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Hi All & Hi Richard, Richard wrote: > I thought it might be of interest to see.....how the CM network > treats others within the profession. Here is a blocked response to > an e-mail I sent. It's fine for them to send me their e-mail but > not vice-versa. >> Posting of your message titled " Re: [Chinesemedicine- network] Cartesian Split " has been rejected by the list moderator. The moderator gave the following reason for rejecting your request: " No reason given " That is sad, indeed. Some voices have been silenced on CHA, and some have left to form a less censored group. However, I stay with CHA because I get some good stuff there also. Hang in there, Richard, and follow your star, regardless. .. Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Hi Phil The group of CMN moderators responded to me.... that I re-submit the post with a new subject title.........passing a very lame excuse regarding their judgement (sounded like a rationalization)...... that what I had posted had nothing to do with 'de/yi/gong fu'. Whether I they interpreted it correctly or not....that was the vein in which I submitted my post and furthermore the post wasn't inflammatory or commercial. There was no mistake in the purpose of that post. The post was offering yet another example of virtue, signification AND gong fu which was my experience....... in an arena that many disregard as an evil. One can use any situation to practice and live 'de/yi/gong fu'. As my dear friend & colleague (Dr Robert Sohn, rip) taught and himself lived..... that this physical material world is a gymnasium to practice 'spritual work'. And 'de/yi/gong fu' fits that definition/reality. Anywhere and as much where we can practice & experinece in life....virtue, signification and gong fu....it has enormous benefit and value for the practitioner and the spectator alike especially when shared in the moment but certainly even as an accounting after the fact. That group of moderators..... wish to not hear and/or share with others. A loss to us all. I responded to the group of moderators as follows: "The post was offered and denied. After a pow-wow....to advise the lister to resubmit based upon an interpretation of the thread of the subject matter issue...... is 'thin' to say the least especially since it was specifically presented in regard to the meaning of 'de/yi/gong fu'. It is always enlightening to see limited perceptions in action. Helps me remember to remember. The event happened and is obviously in the past. The moment was all that mattered. No reason to re-live by resubmitting but thank you anyway." For me, the few posts I receive from that group isn't worth it.... but I do understand it has some value. As to following the star and staying on track....you can bet on that. Yesterday, I signed the contingency retainer agreements with the attorneys on the federal anti-trust/RICO law suits which I have been working on during these past 4 years. I wouldn't have gotten to this point if I didn't stay on track following the star. I fought and won my 'pro se' law suit againt the Florida Dept of Health (single handed without a lawyer or the profession behind me). Couldn't have done that without following the star and staying on track. And.....the other two harassment/jealousy law suits that were filed against me (during these past 1 1/2 years) are now turning around and the plaintiffs are finding themselves between the jaws of a vise. Truth always triumphs if you wait long enough while staying on track. Soon.... these cases will also be finalized in a positive way and I will be vindicated of all the nasty lies...........and all because I have been successful in fighting for the profession. What a world we live in. Following the star and sticking with one's moral and ethical beliefs makes miracles. If you can say one thing...........I hang in there for the duration. lol As always, thanks for your kind words of support and advice. It is a privilege to be here and consider those who are conscious & moral beings as my colleagues and friends. Warm regards, Richard Richard A. Freiberg, OMD, NMD Founder/Director AOMNC www.aomnc.com In a message dated 12/10/2003 4:51:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, writes: Hi All & Hi Richard,Richard wrote:> I thought it might be of interest to see.....how the CM network> treats others within the profession. Here is a blocked response to> an e-mail I sent. It's fine for them to send me their e-mail but> not vice-versa. >> Posting of your message titled "Re: [Chinesemedicine-network] Cartesian Split" has been rejected by the list moderator. The moderator gave the following reason for rejecting your request: "No reason given"That is sad, indeed. Some voices have been silenced on CHA, and some have left to form a less censored group.However, I stay with CHA because I get some good stuff there also.Hang in there, Richard, and follow your star, regardless.Best regards, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Alwin Obviously you as those group moderators rendered your own (what I would call limited)interpretation of what I had to say. That's fine.....but should have been discussed as we are now doing......NOT blocked. Even if I am guilty of failing to make myself clear........the act of blocking a post based upon that excuse is worse than highly prohibitive. It is grossly selective. Whether it be the CHA or CMN or whatever.....if those individuals wish to debate the splitting of hairs....that's fine.......then they need to do it in a highly selective 'members ONLY' group. You nor the moderators have not the foggiest idea as to whether I am acting in this world, what I act upon or whether I am reacting...and certainly not whether I am over-reacting. Those words are nothing more than what you feel inside yourself which you project out into the world. This is not an attack on you so please don't take it that way. Since you brought this to the forefront we shall address it. You are not inside my body or mind and have no way of determing or assessing what I am about nor what I am doing. Then you ask.....'where do you get the information from'......and further state that 'you get the impression that discussions are deeping etc etc'. Thats the propaganda certain people wish us all to believe. I am on the front-line in the fox holes fighting these battles. You know....the REAL experience. I speak from experience (albeit my experience)...NOT from conjecture or something I read somewhere. Now those are my perceptions yet they are from my experiences. I am reporting back to you'all that thats what is occurring in the real-world on a national and international arena. Look around, get involved, get deeper into the experience and THEN judge for yourself. Don't sit on the side-lines like the majority discussing empty rhetoric or someone else's propaganda. Then you say 'it is not easy to set up a new community'. And I ask why not? I am doing it in my own - not so small - way. AOMNC is just that....the creation of a new community. Many have balked and said...'why do we need yet another national association'....and I said because those that are out there are not doing enough. There is room for better and more. Competition is good for the good of the profession. So if I can do it....why can't you or anyone else? How is it that just little'ole me as one person within the sea of 20,000 US acupuncturists and all the myriad state and national acupuncture associations and other accrediting organizations............that without any money, convinced a powerful law firm to go after the reimbursement domain for their anti-trust and racketeering activities against acupuncturists? If I thought it was difficult....if I thought the odds were over powering.....it would never be happening. Let me read you a sentence from the contingency retainer agreement I just signed. "This agreement will confirm your retention of us in regard to a lawsuit against health insurance companies, including health maintenance organizations as an acupuncture provider. Our firm has conducted an investigation of this situation, and based thereon, we believe there is a valid legal and factual basis to prosecute a suit..." How is it that.......with little help from our profession and with just a handful of american acupuncturists...AOMNC is moving the Federal Acupuncture Bill? We are now up to 42 co-sponsors in the House of Representatives with Rep. Jesse L. Jackson Jr just signing on. Does that sound like I am delusional or a fanatic or incorrect in my evaluations? Does that sound like there are real negotiations on the table? Does that sound like our associatons are REALLY contributing? Nah.....I don't think so. What you hear is mostly rhetoric and propaganda and useless...yet I do understand why you believe it. What I am suggesting is that the profession at large needs to wake up from the ETHER. If we beleve we can't or it is too difficult...we won't even try and therefore the only thing that will be accomplished will be NO-THING. If we believe it is not only possible but highly probable....and we WORK for it.....with laser beam focus over long periods of time.....we WILL accomplish it. Those are universal laws. Enough....this is sounding like a pep talk. But it is a wake up call. DING DING, (meant as humorous). Regards, Richard Hi RichardI agree with you that a reason for the blocking of your contribution would have been appropriate. But I can understand why your message has been blocked, as it has no bearing with the thread you were replying to.Though I understand and agree with the fight you are fighting and support your efforts in that fight, I think you are overreacting a bit strongly to this.Furthermore I wuold like to know where you get your information that "many don't go there anymore"? I get the impression that discussions are deepening and gradually more people are contributing. It is not an easy thing to setup a new community.RegardsAlwin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Hi Richard I agree with you that a reason for the blocking of your contribution would have been appropriate. But I can understand why your message has been blocked, as it has no bearing with the thread you were replying to. Though I understand and agree with the fight you are fighting and support your efforts in that fight, I think you are overreacting a bit strongly to this. Furthermore I wuold like to know where you get your information that " many don't go there anymore " ? I get the impression that discussions are deepening and gradually more people are contributing. It is not an easy thing to setup a new community. Regards Alwin --- acudoc11@a... wrote: > I thought it might be of interest to see.....how the CM network > treats others within the profession. > > Here is a blocked response to an e-mail I sent. It's fine for them > to send me their e-mail but not vice-versa. > > No wonder many don't go there anymore. > > Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Fernando Me too.....as we had became very close, unbeknownst to many within his own organization. He originally lived 6 months out of every year in Hollywood, Florida until he moved his family to Hawaii. He passed January 1997. Richard Freiberg In a message dated 12/10/2003 2:10:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, flb writes: Chinese Medicine , acudoc11@a... wrote: As my dear friend & colleague (Dr Robert > Sohn, rip) taught and himself lived..... that this physical material world is a > gymnasium to practice 'spritual work'. I'm sorry to hear of his passing. When did it happened?Fernando Bernall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Hi Alwin Refreshing to discuss and not be on the chopping block. lol <<Agreed again, when I said "I think ..." I was just stating an impression that arose in me, reading your communication. But I thought I expressed it as my opinion on how you reacted on what happened. So it is true that it is just my own feeling about it. But then thats what communication is about, trying to create feelings in other people.>> On a certain level YES, that's part of communication. Then there is another part that comes from direct experience.<<Just to make sure we're talking about the same thing here, I was refering to the development of the discussions on the CMN-forum and nothing else. This statement (refering again to the CMN-forum) is also my personal impression which I would not regard as propaganda.>> Glad you clarified. I was referring to a more generic situation which only in part included CMN.<<I applaud you for that but it took you more then 2 weeks to build it I presume.>> Actually it progressed during the past nine months from just a few steadily growing each week, each day as it continues. Yet the comparison was also about how some organizations are certainly around the same size and took 20+ years to get there.<<I didn't say it is impossible but that it isn't easy. Creating a new online community and getting those people participating actively and not just passively as listeners is difficult. I have experienced that before in a professional setting.>>No doubt that it isn't easy. And even for ZERO cost it still isn't easy.<<I get the impression you are continuing here on a misconception of what I said or meant. I just repeat my remark that I was refering to the discussions on the CMN-forum not to the development of the profession of acupuncture in the USA.>> Yes, you are correct.....I was referring to the overall generic situation nationally and internationally and not specifically to CMN.<<I was and am quite awake, and as I said before I do support your battle. It is one of the things that need be done and again I applaud you for doing it.>> In that comment...... I was not relating to you....but to the overall profession which is apathetic and asleep. Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Chinese Medicine , acudoc11@a... wrote: As my dear friend & colleague (Dr Robert > Sohn, rip) taught and himself lived..... that this physical material world is a > gymnasium to practice 'spritual work'. I'm sorry to hear of his passing. When did it happened? Fernando Bernall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Hi Richard --- acudoc11@a... wrote: > Obviously you as those group moderators rendered your own (what I > would call limited)interpretation of what I had to say. That's > fine.....but should have been discussed as we are now > doing......NOT blocked. Agreed, I'm personally not in favour of blocking any communication that falls within the purpose of a forum. > You nor the moderators have not the foggiest idea as to whether I > am acting in this world, what I act upon or whether I am > reacting...and certainly not whether I am over-reacting. Those > words are nothing more than what you feel inside yourself which you > project out into the world. Agreed again, when I said " I think ... " I was just stating an impression that arose in me, reading your communication. But I thought I expressed it as my opinion on how you reacted on what happened. So it is true that it is just my own feeling about it. But then thats what communication is about, trying to create feelings in other people. > This is not an attack on you so please don't take it that way. No offence taken. > Then you ask.....'where do you get the information from'......and > further state that 'you get the impression that discussions are > deeping etc etc'. Thats the propaganda certain people wish us all > to believe. Just to make sure we're talking about the same thing here, I was refering to the development of the discussions on the CMN-forum and nothing else. This statement (refering again to the CMN-forum) is also my personal impression which I would not regard as propaganda. > Then you say 'it is not easy to set up a new community'. And I ask > why not? I am doing it in my own - not so small - way. AOMNC is > just that....the creation of a new community. I applaud you for that but it took you more then 2 weeks to build it I presume. > Many have balked and said...'why do we need yet another national > association'....and I said because those that are out there are not > doing enough. There is room for better and more. Competition is > good for the good of the profession. So if I can do it....why can't > you or anyone else? I didn't say it is impossible but that it isn't easy. Creating a new online community and getting those people participating actively and not just passively as listeners is difficult. I have experienced that before in a professional setting. > What you hear is mostly rhetoric and propaganda and useless...yet I > do understand why you believe it. What I am suggesting is that the > profession at large needs to wake up from the ETHER. I get the impression you are continuing here on a misconception of what I said or meant. I just repeat my remark that I was refering to the discussions on the CMN-forum not to the development of the profession of acupuncture in the USA. > But it is a wake up call. > DING DING, (meant as humorous). I was and am quite awake, and as I said before I do support your battle. It is one of the things that need be done and again I applaud you for doing it. Best wishes Alwin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Phil, In fact the moderator at CM Net offered Richard to start his own new thread. The reason is that Richard offered a political treatise as a response to an established thread. The moderator personally contacted Richard, and Richard personally declined the offer. I have Richard's post in one of my saved folders. The list owner at CM Net has further noted that CM Net is not a discussion group like CHA or TCM. It is a Listserv. Thus, there is a strict protocol regarding posting to threads. You and I, Phil, are Western scientists. Historically communication via the computer between scientists and engineers has occurred via listserv protocols. It's possible that Richard was unaware of this. The moderator attempted to bring Richard up to speed, but based on Richard's response I sense that he was looking for a more spontaneous sort of chat room sort of orientation and declined the moderator's point of order. As yet, no one has ever been rejected from CM Net who in fact has followed the procedures for posting to a thread. I doubt that any one ever will be. There may, however, be people who are not up to posting original threads or following the protocols of an established thread. By the same token, not every one is up for being a scientist or an engineer. Respectfully, Emmanuel Segmen - Chinese Medicine Wednesday, December 10, 2003 1:48 AM Re: CM network Hi All & Hi Richard,Richard wrote:> I thought it might be of interest to see.....how the CM network treats others within the profession. Here is a blocked response to an e-mail I sent. It's fine for them to send me their e-mail but not vice-versa. >> Posting of your message titled "Re: [Chinesemedicine-network] Cartesian Split" has been rejected by the list moderator. The moderator gave the following reason for rejecting your request: "No reason given"That is sad, indeed. Some voices have been silenced on CHA, and some have left to form a less censored group.However, I stay with CHA because I get some good stuff there also.Hang in there, Richard, and follow your star, regardless.Best regards,Email: < Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 You can TRY to sugar coat it. Bottom line.....the post was rejected. If you are going to be respecful in your ending salutation of my long time friend Phil........then don't insult him by trying to sway him. He knows better and is way more than a scientist and/or an engineer. Be sure to include this in your 'saved folder'. In a message dated 12/11/2003 12:23:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, susegmen writes: Phil, In fact the moderator at CM Net offered Richard to start his own new thread. The reason is that Richard offered a political treatise as a response to an established thread. The moderator personally contacted Richard, and Richard personally declined the offer. I have Richard's post in one of my saved folders. The list owner at CM Net has further noted that CM Net is not a discussion group like CHA or TCM. It is a Listserv. Thus, there is a strict protocol regarding posting to threads. You and I, Phil, are Western scientists. Historically communication via the computer between scientists and engineers has occurred via listserv protocols. It's possible that Richard was unaware of this. The moderator attempted to bring Richard up to speed, but based on Richard's response I sense that he was looking for a more spontaneous sort of chat room sort of orientation and declined the moderator's point of order. As yet, no one has ever been rejected from CM Net who in fact has followed the procedures for posting to a thread. I doubt that any one ever will be. There may, however, be people who are not up to posting original threads or following the protocols of an established thread. By the same token, not every one is up for being a scientist or an engineer. Respectfully, Emmanuel Segmen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2003 Report Share Posted December 12, 2003 Hi All, Re blockage of Richard's post to CMN, I made the mistake of reading CHA for CMN. Anyway, I'm glad to see that Richard is sticking to his guns, and it is a great time of year to follow one's Star! Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2003 Report Share Posted December 12, 2003 Hi Emmanuel Point noted. Many thanks, Phil > Phil, In fact the moderator at CM Net offered Richard to start his > own new thread. The reason is that Richard offered a political > treatise as a response to an established thread. The moderator > personally contacted Richard, and Richard personally declined the > offer. I have Richard's post in one of my saved folders. The > list owner at CM Net has further noted that CM Net is not a > discussion group like CHA or TCM. It is a Listserv. Thus, there > is a strict protocol regarding posting to threads. You and I, > Phil, are Western scientists. Historically communication via the > computer between scientists and engineers has occurred via > listserv protocols. It's possible that Richard was unaware of > this. The moderator attempted to bring Richard up to speed, but > based on Richard's response I sense that he was looking for a more > spontaneous sort of chat room sort of orientation and declined the > moderator's point of order. As yet, no one has ever been rejected > from CM Net who in fact has followed the procedures for posting to > a thread. I doubt that any one ever will be. There may, however, > be people who are not up to posting original threads or following > the protocols of an established thread. By the same token, not > every one is up for being a scientist or an engineer. Respectfully, Emmanuel Segmen - Chinese Medicine Wednesday, December 10, 2003 1:48 AM Re: CM network Hi All & Hi Richard, Richard wrote: > I thought it might be of interest to see.....how the CM network treats others within the profession. Here is a blocked response to an e-mail I sent. It's fine for them to send me their e-mail but not vice-versa. >> Posting of your message titled " Re: [Chinesemedicine- network] Cartesian Split " has been rejected by the list moderator. The moderator gave the following reason for rejecting your request: " No reason given " That is sad, indeed. Some voices have been silenced on CHA, and some have left to form a less censored group. However, I stay with CHA because I get some good stuff there also. Hang in there, Richard, and follow your star, regardless. Best regards, Email: < ------- End of forwarded message ------- Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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