Guest guest Posted December 6, 2003 Report Share Posted December 6, 2003 Hello group, I have a patient who has severe redness of the eyes... in particular the right eye. She complains of dryness and burning of the eyes, and gets dry skin and dry mouth... She does have liver Qi stagnation signs, but she often will have sensitivity to cold. She is somewhat complex, and I need some ideas Could I please get some input as to what direction I should be thinking about in terms of herbal formulas? Ming Mu Di Huang Wan? Help.... Thanks in advance for the feedback Linda Linda I. Umla, A.P., L.M.T. 2546 Bedford Mews Dr.Wellington, FL 33414561-371-2632Worldacupuncture Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2003 Report Share Posted December 6, 2003 [Linda: I have a patient who has severe redness of the eyes... in particular the right eye. She complains of dryness and burning of the eyes, and gets dry skin and dry mouth... She does have liver Qi stagnation signs, but she often will have sensitivity to cold. She is somewhat complex, and I need some ideas Could I please get some input as to what direction I should be thinking about in terms of herbal formulas? Ming Mu Di Huang Wan?] > 1. Diagnosis by color (By tenets of Nan-Ching, Sixty-First Difficult Issue) a. Got 1 color here - red - HT, element Fire. 2. Diagnosis by 5 E placement. a. Eye - LV Wood b. Signs of LV Stagnation - LV Wood c. Burning of eyes - LV Wood d. Dry Skin - LU Metal 3. Diagnosis by symmetry a. A R sided pahtology, almost certainly a L sided etiology. More red, the R eye. 4. Diagnosis by Victimizer-Victim analogy a. Eyes and skin - victim b. Victimizer - up for grabs. 5. Getting out on a limb Q. Who can aggress against LU Metal? A. HT, who else. 6. Beating one's self up. Q. Can naything else other than HT for goodnesses sake aggress LU? A. Nope. Q. And why not. A. Qi dynamics. Nothing aggresses LU as HT does. Fire destroys Metal, Watson. Elementary, Watson. Treatment? Confirm signs, diagnose, be satisfied to what's what, and treat. HT to be toned, LU to be reduced. Other bright ideas? Sure, its R eye, put the tiniest thinn guage needle on Left UB 62. This will work the Yang Qiao Mai connection. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - home based recertification for acupuncturists and health professionals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2003 Report Share Posted December 6, 2003 Dear Dr. K, Let's see if I understand your diagnostic process here. As stated in the classics, your identified by 5 E theory the eyes correspondence to Wood/Liver. Now, you'r identified Heart/Fire, due to the color Red. The dry skin to the Lung/Metal. You suggest as tx: HT to be toned, LU to be reduced. I assume that by " toned " you must mean supplement or tonify. Whatever happened to Liver/Wood/Eyes? If you tone Heart fire and reduce the element that it checks, how is that helping the eyes, or the skin, the chief complaint, for that matter? Furthermore, if Heart fire is already exuberant and overcontrolling Lung/Metal, how is reducing an already overcontrolled element going to help? In addition to the above, since Lung/Metal controls Liver/Wood, how is reducing metal going to keep Liver/Wood/Eyes in check? I do not usually practice 5E medicine, so my understanding may be a bit off. Please clarify. Regards, Fernando Bernall, AP Chinese Medicine , " dr. k " > > > 1. Diagnosis by color (By tenets of Nan-Ching, Sixty-First Difficult Issue) > a. Got 1 color here - red - HT, element Fire. > > 2. Diagnosis by 5 E placement. > a. Eye - LV Wood > b. Signs of LV Stagnation - LV Wood > c. Burning of eyes - LV Wood > d. Dry Skin - LU Metal > > 3. Diagnosis by symmetry > a. A R sided pahtology, almost certainly a L sided etiology. > More red, the R eye. > > 4. Diagnosis by Victimizer-Victim analogy > a. Eyes and skin - victim > b. Victimizer - up for grabs. > > 5. Getting out on a limb > Q. Who can aggress against LU Metal? > A. HT, who else. > > 6. Beating one's self up. > Q. Can naything else other than HT for goodnesses sake aggress LU? > A. Nope. > > Q. And why not. > A. Qi dynamics. Nothing aggresses LU as HT does. > > Fire destroys Metal, Watson. > Elementary, Watson. > > Treatment? > Confirm signs, diagnose, be satisfied to what's what, and treat. > HT to be toned, LU to be reduced. > > Other bright ideas? > Sure, its R eye, put the tiniest thinn guage needle on Left UB 62. > This will work the Yang Qiao Mai connection. > > Dr. Holmes Keikobad > MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ > www.acu-free.com - home based recertification for acupuncturists and health > professionals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2003 Report Share Posted December 6, 2003 Hi I would love to share in the observations with regards to the red eyes. Would it be possible to supply date of birth of the patient? as I find it a useful diagnostic technique. Many thanks salvador www.meridian-qi-acupuncture.com > _______________ Sign-up for a FREE BT Broadband connection today! http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/btbroadband Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2003 Report Share Posted December 7, 2003 Frenando Bernall: [if you tone Heart fire and reduce the element that it checks, how is that helping the eyes, or the skin, the chief complaint, for that matter?] One does not tone HT Fire; here I used " Fire " to mean the element, not the exuberant condition arising from Heat. As the HT, belonging to the Fire element is Deficient, it requires toning, which is reinforcing. LU, element Metal, which was under Oppression by HT, is also in a state of Deficiency, but because it is the yin particle which is Deficient, the yang particle as a consequence becomes yang Excess. Thus the pathology is: HT Deficient, LU {which is, LI], in Excess. The treatment is, tone HT, and reduce LU, which is LI. Because skin, and Dryness are ruled by LU, this adjustment allays that. And because LU Metal aggresses against LV Wood when in Excess, reducing it will restrain that, relieving LV problems in the eyes. [Furthermore, if Heart fire is already exuberant and overcontrolling Lung/Metal, how is reducing an already overcontrolled element going to help?] In Metal, LU is Deficient, and LI in Excess. By reducing LI Excess, one balances Metal. [in addition to the above, since Lung/Metal controls Liver/Wood, how is reducing metal going to keep Liver/Wood/Eyes in check?] As explained above, very many problems seen on Wood, may actually be caused by LU in Excess. By reducing an Excess metal, one takes away its aggressive tendencies and relieves the victim element. For instance, Migraine is very common in Metal Deficient people. There is a basic LU Deficient, Wood GB in Excess. To treat this by reducing LIVE would be folly, because this would reduce its control on ST Earth, which would in turn nourish LU, causing it to oppress LV even more than before, precipitating an even worse attack. Most of these protocols are based on the Seventy-Fifth Difficult Issue in Nan-Ching Classic which states: If there is repletion in the East, and depletion in the West, drain the South, and Fill the North. East is LU, West is LV, South is HT and North is K. Which is synonymous with, if LU are Full, LV Empty, tone K and reduce HT. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - home based recertification for acupuncturists and health professionals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2003 Report Share Posted December 7, 2003 Dear " Dr. K " Thanks for the reply. I think I now understand your logic. Maybe. > As the HT, belonging to the Fire element is Deficient, it requires toning, which is reinforcing. > LU, element Metal, which was under Oppression by HT, is also in a state > of Deficiency, but because it is the yin particle which is Deficient, the > yang > particle as a consequence becomes yang Excess. I see. So a deficient HT, oppressed a deficient lung. I assume by the above you mean Lung is yin deficient. I also assume that by LI you mean Large Intestine, which according to your explanation is now in Excess. Right? Other than the dry skin and dry mouth, what other signs of Lung yin vacuity are present? And, any signs of LI Excess such as constipation, dry stool, foul smelling and burning diarrhea, etc. Let's not forget that the symptoms, according to Linda, are 'severe redness' > > Thus the pathology is: > HT Deficient, LU {which is, LI], in Excess. Got it. Again, here I assume by LI you mean Large intestine and not the character for strength LI3. If so I would like Linda to share whether her pt is showing any signs pertinent to that Fu organ. I would also like to know what s/s of HT yin xu is the pt showing. I would think that according to this approach to diagnosing that since there's HT yin vacuity, SI would then be in excess as you seem to indicate with LU/LI. Right? Thus it seems that we would also see some signs such as burning urination as HT fire from a deficient Heart yin, would then transfer to its Fu counterpart. No? Anyway Dr. K. I appreciate your response and look forward to your insights and to Linda's further posting on her pt's s/s such as tongue, pulse, age, and whether pt is taking any WM rx. I would also like to know whether this is a chronic condition or of a sudden recent onset. Regards, Fernando Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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