Guest guest Posted November 22, 2003 Report Share Posted November 22, 2003 Has anyone got any info on glandular fever from a TCM perspective. What's its equilavent in TCM. Does anyone know any mention of it in the Shang Han Lun? Attilio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2003 Report Share Posted November 22, 2003 I find this wanting of seeing all modern conventional pathologies in TCM patterns not always helpful, as it take your attention away from the main objective of the diagnosis and treatment procedure: " treat the patient not the disease " Although I do not dismiss the validity of looking at conventional pathologies in TCM pattern, one must remain aware that everyone is different, with different constitution, history etc. Look at your patient, treat the Lung if it is needed, or the Spleen or whatever. Reading in a book a made-up description of glandular fever in TCM is not necessarily going to help you getting your patient any better. regards, PJ On Saturday, November 22, 2003, at 01:15 am, wrote: > Has anyone got any info on glandular fever from a TCM perspective. > What's its equilavent in TCM. Does anyone know any mention of it in > the Shang Han Lun? > > Attilio > > <image.tiff> > > > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, > religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. > > To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or > none, visit the groups’ homepage: > Chinese Medicine/ click > ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. > > To send an email to > <Chinese Medicine- > from the > email account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but > will still recieve messages for a few days. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2003 Report Share Posted November 22, 2003 I disagree with you here PJ. The patient i am treating developed glandular fever at the age of 17. This is a Wen Bing febrile type of disease. The fact that the patient has glandular fever at 17 was extremely important in understanding her syndrome some 24 years later when i first saw her. She now suffers from persistent fatigue which was caused by the glandular fever. The glandular fever was never treated, as there is no treatment in WM, so it went interior and developed in latent heat. Latent heat over a long time causes a pronounced deficinecy of Yin. She now has consumptive disease, Xu Lao. Usually this leads to M.E. but in this case not quite. To conclude, it was vitally important to know she had glandular fever so young in her life. Even though many do not wish to use WM syndromes to analysis CM patterns it can be useful and this case demonstrates that. Attilio Pierre jean cousin <heretix@b...> wrote: > I find this wanting of seeing all modern conventional pathologies in > TCM patterns not always helpful, as it take your attention away from > the main objective of the diagnosis and treatment procedure: " treat the > patient not the disease " > Although I do not dismiss the validity of looking at conventional > pathologies in TCM pattern, one must remain aware that everyone is > different, with different constitution, history etc. > Look at your patient, treat the Lung if it is needed, or the Spleen or > whatever. Reading in a book a made-up description of glandular fever in > TCM is not necessarily going to help you getting your patient any > better. > > > regards, > > > PJ > On Saturday, November 22, 2003, at 01:15 am, wrote: > > > Has anyone got any info on glandular fever from a TCM perspective. > > What's its equilavent in TCM. Does anyone know any mention of it in > > the Shang Han Lun? > > > > Attilio > > > > > <image.tiff> > > > > > > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, > > religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. > > > > To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or > > none, visit the groups' homepage: > > Chinese Medicine/ click > > `edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. > > > > To send an email to > > <Chinese Medicine- > from the > > email account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but > > will still recieve messages for a few days. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 Hello again Attilio, first I think you need to read my Email again. I also want to clarify a few of my points. It is important, in my view not to confuse the Map and the Territory: The TCM model (Wen Bing, and Xu Lao) is your perception of what happen to this patient; it is not all what happens to this patient. Somebody may use a different model such as for example Zang Fu, and treat this person kidney yin, or liver yin, or what ever and be as successful as you may be. TCM or Zang Fu or 5 Element acupuncture are only a few of the maps that can be used to look at the patient . For example I often use in case of Glandular fever a combination of acupuncture and Chinese Herbal medicine ( 2 maps combined) I also put them on a diet to help the immune system (an other map) and I have in some cases used homeopathy. The chinese model of medicine define all components ( Chi, Blood, fluid, organs etc.) according to what they do, not according to what they are; this is a dynamic view, as opposed to the reductionist approach of western medicine which also has its validity, strengh and weakness. I personally find that the systematic association of western pathologies with Chinese pattern is sometimes useful , but can also be to reductionist. In other words, I always try to look at a patient with the flexibility of different models in order not to confuse the map and the territory, and serve better my patients Regards, PJ On Saturday, November 22, 2003, at 06:58 pm, wrote: > I disagree with you here PJ. The patient i am treating developed > glandular fever at the age of 17. This is a Wen Bing febrile type of > disease. The fact that the patient has glandular fever at 17 was > extremely important in understanding her syndrome some 24 years > later when i first saw her. > > She now suffers from persistent fatigue which was caused by the > glandular fever. The glandular fever was never treated, as there is > no treatment in WM, so it went interior and developed in latent > heat. Latent heat over a long time causes a pronounced deficinecy of > Yin. She now has consumptive disease, Xu Lao. Usually this leads to > M.E. but in this case not quite. > > To conclude, it was vitally important to know she had glandular > fever so young in her life. Even though many do not wish to use WM > syndromes to analysis CM patterns it can be useful and this case > demonstrates that. > > Attilio > > > > Pierre jean cousin <heretix@b...> wrote: > > I find this wanting of seeing all modern conventional pathologies > in > > TCM patterns not always helpful, as it take your attention away > from > > the main objective of the diagnosis and treatment procedure: " treat > the > > patient not the disease " > > Although I do not dismiss the validity of looking at conventional > > pathologies in TCM pattern, one must remain aware that everyone > is > > different, with different constitution, history etc. > > Look at your patient, treat the Lung if it is needed, or the > Spleen or > > whatever. Reading in a book a made-up description of glandular > fever in > > TCM is not necessarily going to help you getting your patient any > > better. > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > PJ > > On Saturday, November 22, 2003, at 01:15 am, > wrote: > > > > > Has anyone got any info on glandular fever from a TCM > perspective. > > > What's its equilavent in TCM. Does anyone know any mention of it > in > > > the Shang Han Lun? > > > > > > Attilio > > > > > > > > <image.tiff> > > > > > > > > > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, > > > religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. > > > > > > To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest > or > > > none, visit the groups' homepage: > > > Chinese Medicine/ > click > > > `edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust > accordingly. > > > > > > To send an email to > > > <Chinese Medicine- > from > the > > > email account you joined with. You will be removed automatically > but > > > will still recieve messages for a few days. > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 Dear Attilio, can you please elaborate how glandular fever knowledge of it in the past help to create treatment principle and tretment. if you had not been aware of it whould your dis-ease disease(east west) pattern identification diagnosis have changed? I mean this in the sence that I would like to learn how to " move in between paradigm " in a constructive way... Take care Marco Ps. I am not saying I disagree with your observation I like to learn...by example.... - " " <attiliodalberto <Chinese Medicine > Saturday, November 22, 2003 12:58 PM Re: Glandular Fever > I disagree with you here PJ. The patient i am treating developed > glandular fever at the age of 17. This is a Wen Bing febrile type of > disease. The fact that the patient has glandular fever at 17 was > extremely important in understanding her syndrome some 24 years > later when i first saw her. > > She now suffers from persistent fatigue which was caused by the > glandular fever. The glandular fever was never treated, as there is > no treatment in WM, so it went interior and developed in latent > heat. Latent heat over a long time causes a pronounced deficinecy of > Yin. She now has consumptive disease, Xu Lao. Usually this leads to > M.E. but in this case not quite. > > To conclude, it was vitally important to know she had glandular > fever so young in her life. Even though many do not wish to use WM > syndromes to analysis CM patterns it can be useful and this case > demonstrates that. > > Attilio > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 Hi PJ and Marco, I may be wrong but if the patient presents with a history of a heat pathogen, like glandular fever, then your better able to see the start of the syndrome, the progression and its severity. A patient will not say i had a bad throat when i was young but will remeber and say i had glandular fever. So even though the WM means very little in TCM based upon syndrome differentiation and in the past tense, the practitioner is able to understand the history of the syndrome they are treating. Yes, i grant you, you'll still need to do a correct syndrome differentation and this will be based upon a pattern-symptom analysis in the now, along with tongue and pulse. But to know its origin is to better understand its severity. I'll post the case study write up shortly for all to read. Attilio " Marco " <bergh@i...> wrote: > Dear Attilio, > > can you please elaborate how glandular fever knowledge of it in the past > help to create treatment principle and tretment. > > if you had not been aware of it whould your dis-ease disease(east west) > pattern identification diagnosis have changed? > > I mean this in the sence that I would like to learn how to " move in between > paradigm " in a constructive way... > > Take care > > > Marco > > Ps. I am not saying I disagree with your observation I like to learn...by > example.... > > - > " " <attiliodalberto> > <Chinese Medicine > > Saturday, November 22, 2003 12:58 PM > Re: Glandular Fever > > > > I disagree with you here PJ. The patient i am treating developed > > glandular fever at the age of 17. This is a Wen Bing febrile type of > > disease. The fact that the patient has glandular fever at 17 was > > extremely important in understanding her syndrome some 24 years > > later when i first saw her. > > > > She now suffers from persistent fatigue which was caused by the > > glandular fever. The glandular fever was never treated, as there is > > no treatment in WM, so it went interior and developed in latent > > heat. Latent heat over a long time causes a pronounced deficinecy of > > Yin. She now has consumptive disease, Xu Lao. Usually this leads to > > M.E. but in this case not quite. > > > > To conclude, it was vitally important to know she had glandular > > fever so young in her life. Even though many do not wish to use WM > > syndromes to analysis CM patterns it can be useful and this case > > demonstrates that. > > > > Attilio > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 Hello again Attilio, It is important and useful to have the patient history, and a coherant strategy, so I am sure you are on the right track and you will do well with this patient. I was just pointing out the weakness in relying solely on western pathology and their related syndromes Regards, PJ - Chinese Medicine Sunday, November 23, 2003 1:54 PM Re: Glandular Fever Hi PJ and Marco,I may be wrong but if the patient presents with a history of a heat pathogen, like glandular fever, then your better able to see the start of the syndrome, the progression and its severity. A patient will not say i had a bad throat when i was young but will remeber and say i had glandular fever. So even though the WM means very little in TCM based upon syndrome differentiation and in the past tense, the practitioner is able to understand the history of the syndrome they are treating.Yes, i grant you, you'll still need to do a correct syndrome differentation and this will be based upon a pattern-symptom analysis in the now, along with tongue and pulse. But to know its origin is to better understand its severity. I'll post the case study write up shortly for all to read. Attilio"Marco" <bergh@i...> wrote:> Dear Attilio,> > can you please elaborate how glandular fever knowledge of it in the past> help to create treatment principle and tretment.> > if you had not been aware of it whould your dis-ease disease(east west)> pattern identification diagnosis have changed?> > I mean this in the sence that I would like to learn how to "move in between> paradigm" in a constructive way...> > Take care> > > Marco> > Ps. I am not saying I disagree with your observation I like to learn...by> example....> > -> "" <attiliodalberto>> <Chinese Medicine >> Saturday, November 22, 2003 12:58 PM> Re: Glandular Fever> > > > I disagree with you here PJ. The patient i am treating developed> > glandular fever at the age of 17. This is a Wen Bing febrile type of> > disease. The fact that the patient has glandular fever at 17 was> > extremely important in understanding her syndrome some 24 years> > later when i first saw her.> >> > She now suffers from persistent fatigue which was caused by the> > glandular fever. The glandular fever was never treated, as there is> > no treatment in WM, so it went interior and developed in latent> > heat. Latent heat over a long time causes a pronounced deficinecy of> > Yin. She now has consumptive disease, Xu Lao. Usually this leads to> > M.E. but in this case not quite.> >> > To conclude, it was vitally important to know she had glandular> > fever so young in her life. Even though many do not wish to use WM> > syndromes to analysis CM patterns it can be useful and this case> > demonstrates that.> >> > Attilio> >> >> >Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ click ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. To send an email to<Chinese Medicine- > from the email account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but will still recieve messages for a few days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 Well here's my case study write up. Tell me what you think, please. • Introduction Female. 41. Occupation: University lecturer. Initial consultation: 06th October 2003. • Chief Complaint Persistent fatigue since January 2001. • History of present illness She constantly feels hot which is worse in the morning and better in the evening. Usually it's stress that brings on the fatigue. She has a noticeable red complexion. Her glandular fever flares up when she gets angry. She generally doesn't feel as calm as she used to be. Exercise makes her feel tired as she gets excessively hot. She prefers cold drinks and feels slight palpations. Menstruation cycle is every 24 days. During menstruation the blood discharge is dark red with occasional clots. She also experiences pain in the abdomen with tender breasts and is often irritable at time of her cycle. • Past history At the age of 17, she developed glandular fever. Two – three years ago she left a stressful job as a sister on a hospital ward to become a University lecturer. She had high cholesterol since December 2002. She has an aversion to the summer months when its hot. • Pertinent physical examination and laboratory findings None noted. • Tongue inspection Dry, red tip with a very slight white coating. • Pulse condition Rapid and wiry. • Allopathic Diagnosis Her G.P. was unable to provide a diagnosis. • Allopathic Medication Aspirin 75mg od, atorvastatin 10mg nocte. • TCM Diagnosis and syndrome differentiation Liver and Kidney Yin deficiency caused by excessive Latent Heat with Empty Heart Fire. • Principles of Treatment Clear the Heat, cool the Blood and nourish the Yin. • Base Formula Tian Wang Bu Xin Wan (modified). Sheng Di Huang ~ 20g, Dang Gui ~ 15g, Dang Shen ~ 10g, Chi Shao ~ 12g, Chuan Xiong ~ 10g, Yu Jin ~ 12g, Sheng Long Gu ~ 20g, Sheng Gan Cao ~ 10g. 7 bags (1 bag for 1 day). To be decocted and taken once in the morning and once in the evening after meals. • Nursing Points Stop smoking and drinking alcohol. • Course of Treatment 2nd consultation: 14th October. She has no palpitations and feels less hot. She is not as thirsty as before and is now able to drink hot drinks. Her urine is normal with no change. She had diarrhoea, once in the morning and once in the evening for one day. She doesn't feel depressed, with just one day when she felt moody – last Sunday. She sleeps better but is still having vivid dreams. T: red tip with a slight white coating. Coating is better with more of a thin white coating than previous week. P: thin and thready. She disliked the taste of herbs and chose to take pills instead: Jia Wei Xiao Yao Wan and Zhi Bai Di Huang Wan. 3rd consultation: 20th October. Generally not feeling hot. Drinking hot and cold drinks. Sleep is good, but still has a lot of dreams. Bowels were normal until last night and this morning when they were loose. Urine was normal until this morning and has been more frequent, 3-4 times in the morning. Appetite is normal. T: Red tip with a slight on coating more so than previous week. P: weak and wiry. No pills, still taking them from the pervious week. 4th consultation: 28th October. Feels hot again which started yesterday the 27th October and felt tired over the last week. Moods have been fine until this morning. Sleep is normal as is her appetite but she still has vivid dreams. Bowels are fine, regular, everyday, urine is also normal in colour and quantity. T: red tip is more pronounced, tongue coating is the same as previous week. P: weak. She is put back on raw herbs as they are stronger and fast acting. Herbal formula is based upon Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan: Sheng Di Huang 15g, Dang Gui 12g, Chi Shao 6g, Chuan Xiong 6g, Yu Jin 10g, Mu Dan Pi 12g, Mai Men Dong 10g, Sheng Gan Cao 6g; 1 bag x 1 day x 7 days. 5th consultation: 3rd November. She has a cold. Cold started on Friday afternoon. Her symptoms include, fever, nasal discharge and restricted breathing with aversion to drafts. She has no sore throat. Sleep is good, with less vivid dreams. Appetite is good. Bowels normal except last night, the 2nd November when she had loose stools. Her moods have been stable. T: little coating with a red tip. P: floating. Syndrome differentiation changed to exterior wind- cold attack. Treatment principle changes to release the exterior and tonify the defensive Qi to clear the pathogen. Herbal formula: Ma Huang 6g, Gui Zhi 6g, Xing Ren 9g, Sheng Zhi Gao 20g: 1 bag x 1 day x 3 days. Herbs remain the same as previous week: Sheng Di Huang 15g, Dang Gui 12g, Chi Shao 6g, Chuan Xiong 6g, Yu Jin 10g, Mu Dan Pi 12g, Mai Men Dong 10g, Sheng Gan Cao 6g: 1 bag x 1 day x 3 days. 6th consultation: 11th November. She feels much better, as the cold has finished. Has not slept well last few days due to stress at work and her menstruation cycle is about to start. She is waking up at 3- 4 am due to stress at work and menstrual cycle. She is still having vivid dreams but no palpitations. Appetite is good. Thirst is now normal. She had diarrhoea for a day but is now stable with bowel movements once to twice daily. T: red tip, slight white coating. P: R: Guan portion was strong L: weak and deep. Herbs: same as previous week, 1 bag x 1 day x 14 days. • Discussion The syndrome differentiation is a consumptive disorder (Xu Lao), where the Yin is consumed by Yang. The Bian Zheng LunZhi of this case is therefore a mixture of excess Heat and a deficiency of Yin. The initial onset of this syndrome can be traced back to her childhood where at the age of 17, she developed glandular fever. Glandular fever in allopathic medicine, is an acute herpes virus infection caused by the Epstein-Barr virus, a Wen Bing-febrile disease. It is characterised by fever, sore throat, swollen lymph glands, atypical lymphocytes, splenomegaly, hepatomegaly, abnormal liver function and bruising. Young people are most often affected. Conventional treatment is primarily symptomatic, with enforced bed rest to prevent serious complications of the liver and spleen, analgesics to control the pain and saline gargles for throat discomfort (Anderson 1998; Souhami and Moxham 1998). This form of treatment did not rid the body of the pathogen and allowed it to remain in the body. As the Wen Bing syndrome was not correctly treated, Latent Heat developed in the Interior of the body. The pathogenic factor remained lodged in between the Exterior and Interior of the body for 24 years at the mid-way point between the Exterior and Interior part of the body, known as the Lesser Yang. It is the hinge between Greater Yang (which opens onto the Exterior) and Bright Yang (which opens onto the Interior). This was allowed to happen as the person's body condition was weak at the time of invasion of the exterior pathogenic factor. The underlying reason for this is usually a deficiency of the Kidney (Maciocia 1991). The `Simple Questions' in Chapter 4 says: " The essence is the root of the body; if it is guarded and stored, Latent Heat will not appear in springtime " . This concept is very important in practice as it implies that resistance to pathogenic factors does not depend only on Lung-Qi (defensive Wei Qi), but also on Kidney Qi and Kidney essence (Maciocia 1991). Latent Heat injured the Qi and Yin, thus establishing a vicious circle of Heat and deficiency. The Latent Heat can emerge towards the surface by itself, or by emotional turmoil which affects the Liver, or it can be `pulled' towards the surface by a new invasion of external Wind. The `Simple Questions' in Chapter 3 says: " If Cold enters the body in winter time, it comes out as Heat in the spring time " . This concept implies that the Heat can come out as a reaction to the Zang organ the Liver, which is related to spring. The patient stated in the initial consultation that anger causes her glandular fever to flare up. Two years ago the patient left her job as sister on a hospital ward. This job was very stressful and she often felt very irritated and angry. Anger causes a disharmony of the Liver leading to Heat which is stored in the Lesser Yang and bring it to the Lesser Yin. The Gallbladder has a divergent channel that connects with the Heart (Deadman, Al-Khafaji and Baker 1998, p421). From the Gallbladder, the Heat enters the Heart causing the Heart Fire to flare above and Kidney Yin vacates below. The more the Yin vacates, the more the Fire flares, the more the Yin vacates. The more they respond to each other, the more they boost the disease. This causes vexation and restless sleep (Wen and Seifert 2000). The branch symptoms include palpitations, hot feeling, dry mouth, flushed red face, or vivid dreams as caused by Heart Empty Fire. The syndrome can be attributed principally to two Zangfu organs; Liver and Kidney. They are the root as the Kidney is the foundation for all the Yin energies of the body (Maciocia 1989). According to Five Element theory (figure 1 & 2), the Kidney element is Water and is the mother of the Liver (the son). It supplies Yin to the Liver and also regulates the Heart, which is Fire. A deficiency of Yin will cause a deficiency of Liver Yin causing irritability and anger along with Heart Fire symptoms of vivid dreams and palpitations as the Heart insult the Kidney. The treatment strategy is to simultaneously treat the branch and root. The formula is designed to clear the Heat, cool the Blood and nourish the Yin. The formula prescribed on the 06th October was a modified version of Tian Wang Bu Xin Wan. Alterations were made as the palpitations were only slight, there was no insomnia and the vivid dreams and irritability were more predominant. The chief herb, Sheng Di Huang, was used to nourish the Yin and clear the Heat. The deputy herbs Dang Gui and Dan Shen tonify the Blood to nourish the Heart without causing stasis. The assistants, Chi Shao, Yu Jin and Chuan Xiong, regulate the Blood, clear Heat and cool the Blood. The envoy herbs, Sheng Long Gu and Sheng Gan Cao calm the spirit and harmonise the formula (Bensky and Gamble 1986; Benksy and Barolet 1990). This formula worked well, but the patient complained that the herbs tasted bad and wanted to have pills instead. In the next consultation on the 14th October she was prescribed Jia Wei Xiao Yao Wan and Zhi Bai Di Huang Wan. The patient felt fine until two weeks later when she felt very hot again as the Heat grew to its original level. The herbal formula given to her two weeks before reduced the Heat and tonified the Yin. The pills given a week later were too weak for the level of Heat excess and Yin deficiency. It took two weeks from the time she took raw herbs for the Heat to return to its normal level. On the 3rd November the patient had a cold. In cases such as Latent Heat with a consumptive disorder, every effort should be made to treat any new infection the patient might have in the course of treatment. This is because a new acute viral infection such as a cold can undo the work of weeks of treatment. The symptom pattern analysis pointed towards a syndrome of Wind-Cold. Therefore, the modified formula Ma Huang Tang was prescribed. Certain critics may state that the use of Ma Huang Tang for a typical Wind-Cold syndrome is too strong. It was given to strongly eradicate the Wind before it could enter any further into the body and engage the Latent Heat and further damage the Yin. In addition, only 3 days worth of herbs were prescribed and Zhi Gan Cao was replaced with Sheng Gan Cao to assist in the removal of Heat. By the following week the Wind-Cold had finished and the patient was put back on the modified Tian Wang Bu Xin Wan formula. Initally, the pulse was rapid and wiry which is of the Full-type, indicating an Excess syndrome is predominant. As the Heat was cleared, the Blood cooled and the Yin nourished, the pulse changed to thin and thready then to deep and weak, indicating a predominantly deficient type syndrome. The spontaneous diarrhoea that occurred for one day a week indicates that the Stomach is weak and the middle Jiao is deficient in Qi, and is easily stirred by the medication (Zhang circa 200 C.E.). The patient uses conventional medication, aspirin and atorvastatin, to treat her high cholesterol. The side effects of atorvastatin amongst others are insomnia and asthenia (BNF 2002). In TCM terms, they damage the Qi and Blood (Yin) and further aggravate the syndrome of consumptive disorder. As the Heat is progressively cleared and the Blood cooled, the treatment strategy should focus upon the long term aspect of replenishing depleted Yin and strengthening the Kidney. Once the Kidney is strong again, no Latent Heat will be able to establish itself again. Preventative pills can also be administered to the patient in the event of catching Wind-Heat.. Yin Qiao San may be prescribed in instances of Wind-Heat attack characterized by a sore throat and high fever. If the condition had remained untreated, the syndrome would have developed into chronic fatigue, a more severe consumptive disorder characterized by a chronic situation of excessive Heat and Yin deficiency. In Western medical terms this is categorised at Myalgic Encephalomyelitis (M.E.). Attilio " Pierre jean Cousin " <heretix@b...> wrote: > Hello again Attilio, > It is important and useful to have the patient history, and a coherant strategy, so I am sure you are on the right track and you will do well with this patient. > I was just pointing out the weakness in relying solely on western pathology and their related syndromes > > Regards, > > PJ > - > > Chinese Medicine > Sunday, November 23, 2003 1:54 PM > Re: Glandular Fever > > > Hi PJ and Marco, > > I may be wrong but if the patient presents with a history of a heat > pathogen, like glandular fever, then your better able to see the > start of the syndrome, the progression and its severity. > > A patient will not say i had a bad throat when i was young but will > remeber and say i had glandular fever. So even though the WM means > very little in TCM based upon syndrome differentiation and in the > past tense, the practitioner is able to understand the history of > the syndrome they are treating. > > Yes, i grant you, you'll still need to do a correct syndrome > differentation and this will be based upon a pattern-symptom > analysis in the now, along with tongue and pulse. But to know its > origin is to better understand its severity. > > I'll post the case study write up shortly for all to read. > > Attilio > > > " Marco " <bergh@i...> wrote: > > Dear Attilio, > > > > can you please elaborate how glandular fever knowledge of it in > the past > > help to create treatment principle and tretment. > > > > if you had not been aware of it whould your dis-ease disease (east > west) > > pattern identification diagnosis have changed? > > > > I mean this in the sence that I would like to learn how to " move > in between > > paradigm " in a constructive way... > > > > Take care > > > > > > Marco > > > > Ps. I am not saying I disagree with your observation I like to > learn...by > > example.... > > > > - > > " " <attiliodalberto> > > <Chinese Medicine > > > Saturday, November 22, 2003 12:58 PM > > Re: Glandular Fever > > > > > > > I disagree with you here PJ. The patient i am treating developed > > > glandular fever at the age of 17. This is a Wen Bing febrile > type of > > > disease. The fact that the patient has glandular fever at 17 was > > > extremely important in understanding her syndrome some 24 years > > > later when i first saw her. > > > > > > She now suffers from persistent fatigue which was caused by the > > > glandular fever. The glandular fever was never treated, as there > is > > > no treatment in WM, so it went interior and developed in latent > > > heat. Latent heat over a long time causes a pronounced > deficinecy of > > > Yin. She now has consumptive disease, Xu Lao. Usually this leads > to > > > M.E. but in this case not quite. > > > > > > To conclude, it was vitally important to know she had glandular > > > fever so young in her life. Even though many do not wish to use > WM > > > syndromes to analysis CM patterns it can be useful and this case > > > demonstrates that. > > > > > > Attilio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2003 Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 Hi All, & PJ & Attilio Attilio wrote: > I disagree with you here PJ. The patient i am treating developed > glandular fever at the age of 17. This is a Wen Bing febrile type > of disease. The fact that the patient has glandular fever at 17 > was extremely important in understanding her syndrome some 24 > years later when i first saw her. She now suffers from persistent > fatigue which was caused by the glandular fever. The glandular > fever was never treated, as there is no treatment in WM, so it > went interior and developed in latent heat. Latent heat over a > long time causes a pronounced deficinecy of Yin. She now has > consumptive disease, Xu Lao. Usually this leads to M.E. but in > this case not quite. To conclude, it was vitally important to know > she had glandular fever so young in her life. Even though many do > not wish to use WM syndromes to analysis CM patterns it can be > useful and this case demonstrates that. Attilio As part of the treatment, would you consider adding a homeopathic nosode, made from the secretions of a current case of glandular fever? Disease symptoms often disappear in reverse order of their appearance. If glandular fever was clearly the start of the problem, a nosode might be very useful indeed. Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2003 Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 Good question Phil. I would certainly consider it, if the homeopathic medicine didn't contain any Heat element and was rather just the energetic version of the virus. Although i a little in the dark on such issues as to what homeopathic remedies contain in terms of the Five elements and how they affect the Zangfu. Can anyone shine some light on this topic? Attilio " " <@e...> wrote: > Hi All, & PJ & Attilio > > Attilio wrote: > > I disagree with you here PJ. The patient i am treating developed > > glandular fever at the age of 17. This is a Wen Bing febrile type > > of disease. The fact that the patient has glandular fever at 17 > > was extremely important in understanding her syndrome some 24 > > years later when i first saw her. She now suffers from persistent > > fatigue which was caused by the glandular fever. The glandular > > fever was never treated, as there is no treatment in WM, so it > > went interior and developed in latent heat. Latent heat over a > > long time causes a pronounced deficinecy of Yin. She now has > > consumptive disease, Xu Lao. Usually this leads to M.E. but in > > this case not quite. To conclude, it was vitally important to know > > she had glandular fever so young in her life. Even though many do > > not wish to use WM syndromes to analysis CM patterns it can be > > useful and this case demonstrates that. Attilio > > As part of the treatment, would you consider adding a homeopathic > nosode, made from the secretions of a current case of glandular > fever? > > Disease symptoms often disappear in reverse order of their > appearance. If glandular fever was clearly the start of the problem, > a nosode might be very useful indeed. > > > Best regards, > > Email: <@e...> > > WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland > Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] > > HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland > Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] > WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2003 Report Share Posted November 25, 2003 Hello Attilio, you cannot compare the properties of homeopathic remedies and . They cannot cause heat or cold, they just stimulate healthy responses. Homeopathic remedies have nothing to do with 5 elements or Zang Fu You are better off taking advice from a local homeopath, as if you know nothing about it it is unlikely to work. It would be as if an homeopath would give Gelsemium to a patient with a cold and decide to use some acupuncture points without knowing anything about it and try Gall Bladder 44 to treat the cold. Regards, PJ On Monday, November 24, 2003, at 11:05 am, wrote: > Good question Phil. I would certainly consider it, if the > homeopathic medicine didn't contain any Heat element and was rather > just the energetic version of the virus. Although i a little in the > dark on such issues as to what homeopathic remedies contain in terms > of the Five elements and how they affect the Zangfu. > > Can anyone shine some light on this topic? > > Attilio > > " " <@e...> wrote: > > Hi All, & PJ & Attilio > > > > Attilio wrote: > > > I disagree with you here PJ. The patient i am treating developed > > > glandular fever at the age of 17. This is a Wen Bing febrile type > > > of disease. The fact that the patient has glandular fever at 17 > > > was extremely important in understanding her syndrome some 24 > > > years later when i first saw her. She now suffers from persistent > > > fatigue which was caused by the glandular fever. The glandular > > > fever was never treated, as there is no treatment in WM, so it > > > went interior and developed in latent heat. Latent heat over a > > > long time causes a pronounced deficinecy of Yin. She now has > > > consumptive disease, Xu Lao. Usually this leads to M.E. but in > > > this case not quite. To conclude, it was vitally important to > know > > > she had glandular fever so young in her life. Even though many do > > > not wish to use WM syndromes to analysis CM patterns it can be > > > useful and this case demonstrates that. Attilio > > > > As part of the treatment, would you consider adding a homeopathic > > nosode, made from the secretions of a current case of glandular > > fever? > > > > Disease symptoms often disappear in reverse order of their > > appearance. If glandular fever was clearly the start of the > problem, > > a nosode might be very useful indeed. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > Email: <@e...> > > > > WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, > Ireland > > Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] > > > > HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland > > Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] > > WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm > > <image.tiff> > > > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, > religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. > > To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or > none, visit the groups’ homepage: > Chinese Medicine/ click > ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. > > To send an email to > <Chinese Medicine- > from the > email account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but > will still recieve messages for a few days. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2003 Report Share Posted November 26, 2003 Yes i agree Pj, homeopathy should be left-up-to homeopathic professionals. A discpline in one holstic theraphy doesn't mean an understanding of them all. Attilio Pierre jean cousin <heretix@b...> wrote: > Hello Attilio, you cannot compare the properties of homeopathic > remedies and . > They cannot cause heat or cold, they just stimulate healthy responses. > Homeopathic remedies have nothing to do with 5 elements or Zang Fu > You are better off taking advice from a local homeopath, as if you know > nothing about it it is unlikely to work. > It would be as if an homeopath would give Gelsemium to a patient with a > cold and decide to use some acupuncture points without knowing anything > about it and try Gall Bladder 44 to treat the cold. > > Regards, > > PJ > On Monday, November 24, 2003, at 11:05 am, wrote: > > > Good question Phil. I would certainly consider it, if the > > homeopathic medicine didn't contain any Heat element and was rather > > just the energetic version of the virus. Although i a little in the > > dark on such issues as to what homeopathic remedies contain in terms > > of the Five elements and how they affect the Zangfu. > > > > Can anyone shine some light on this topic? > > > > Attilio > > > > " " <@e...> wrote: > > > Hi All, & PJ & Attilio > > > > > > Attilio wrote: > > > > I disagree with you here PJ. The patient i am treating developed > > > > glandular fever at the age of 17. This is a Wen Bing febrile type > > > > of disease. The fact that the patient has glandular fever at 17 > > > > was extremely important in understanding her syndrome some 24 > > > > years later when i first saw her. She now suffers from persistent > > > > fatigue which was caused by the glandular fever. The glandular > > > > fever was never treated, as there is no treatment in WM, so it > > > > went interior and developed in latent heat. Latent heat over a > > > > long time causes a pronounced deficinecy of Yin. She now has > > > > consumptive disease, Xu Lao. Usually this leads to M.E. but in > > > > this case not quite. To conclude, it was vitally important to > > know > > > > she had glandular fever so young in her life. Even though many do > > > > not wish to use WM syndromes to analysis CM patterns it can be > > > > useful and this case demonstrates that. Attilio > > > > > > As part of the treatment, would you consider adding a homeopathic > > > nosode, made from the secretions of a current case of glandular > > > fever? > > > > > > Disease symptoms often disappear in reverse order of their > > > appearance. If glandular fever was clearly the start of the > > problem, > > > a nosode might be very useful indeed. > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Email: <@e...> > > > > > > WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, > > Ireland > > > Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] > > > > > > HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland > > > Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] > > > WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm > > > > > <image.tiff> > > > > > > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, > > religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. > > > > To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or > > none, visit the groups' homepage: > > Chinese Medicine/ click > > `edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. > > > > To send an email to > > <Chinese Medicine- > from the > > email account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but > > will still recieve messages for a few days. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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