Guest guest Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 Hello, What is the proper duration for a needles treatment? I have received different responses from different people, which is making me quite proplexed to say the least. One person has told me 30 minutes is sufficent for a needle treatment. Another person has told me 45 minutes is the necessary time for a needle treatment. A different person told me 15 minutes on each side is good. I don't know if there is any truth to this but someone told me that an acupuncturist should know judge a needle treatment by time alone. The guy continued to say that during a needle treatment Qi travels in cycles. This cycles has hills and valleys similar to a wave. He said, " what is important is to take out the needle at the peak of the wave (hill) " . If there is any truth to this how do you identify this wave? Thanks, David Protect your identity with Mail AddressGuard http://antispam./whatsnewfree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 Hi Dave. To tell you the truth, there is no exact time the needles should be left in for. This is one of the mysteries of TCM as it doesn't come from a quantative background yet we wish to formulise it and measure it. Here is an extract from an article i'm writing: The dose and type of acupuncture may be a factor in effectiveness. Treatment sessions varied from X session to X. the optimum dose may be between these two extremes(Moner 1996, p96). Acupuncture may be useful for some clients, but the best techniques: duration, length of treatment, types of patients and appropriate psychosocial adjuncts, remains to be clarified (Konefal, Duncan and Clemence 1995, p8). The literature is characterized by this substantial procedural variability and very little empirical evidence for any particular combination of sessions and days. There is a clear need for work designed to determine in a parametric way the minimal number of sessions for an effective `dose' of acupuncture (McLellan, Grossman, Blaine and Haverkos (1993, p571). One 20 minute session per day of bilateral application for a 10 day period appears to be the minimal conditions necessary for effective treatment of substance abuse problems such as cocaine detoxification (McLellan, Grossman, Blaine and Haverkos (1993, p575). Hope that helps... Attilio David Razo <ozar14> wrote: > Hello, > > What is the proper duration for a needles treatment? > > I have received different responses from different > people, which is making me quite proplexed to say the > least. One person has told me 30 minutes is sufficent > for a needle treatment. Another person has told me 45 > minutes is the necessary time for a needle treatment. > A different person told me 15 minutes on each side is > good. > > I don't know if there is any truth to this but someone > told me that an acupuncturist should know judge a > needle treatment by time alone. The guy continued to > say that during a needle treatment Qi travels in > cycles. This cycles has hills and valleys similar to > a wave. He said, " what is important is to take out > the needle at the peak of the wave (hill) " . > > If there is any truth to this how do you identify this > wave? > > Thanks, David > > > > Protect your identity with Mail AddressGuard > http://antispam./whatsnewfree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 Chinese Medicine , " Attilio DAlberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote: > Hi Dave. To tell you the truth, there is no exact time the needles > should be left in for. This is one of the mysteries of TCM as it > doesn't come from a quantative background yet we wish to formulise > it and measure it. to complicate matters, many blind Japanese acupuncturists never retain needles at all. in fact many of them barely insert the needles, and on some points, don't even break the skin at all... robert hayden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 Hi All, David Razo wrote: > What is the proper duration for a needles treatment? I have > received different responses from different people, which is making > me quite proplexed to say the least. One person has told me 30 > minutes is sufficent for a needle treatment. Another person has > told me 45 minutes is the necessary time for a needle treatment. A > different person told me 15 minutes on each side is good. I don't > know if there is any truth to this but someone told me that an > acupuncturist should know judge a needle treatment by time alone. > The guy continued to say that during a needle treatment Qi travels > in cycles. This cycles has hills and valleys similar to a wave. He > said, " what is important is to take out the needle at the peak of > the wave (hill) " . If there is any truth to this how do you identify > this wave? In horses, which are incredibly sensitive to acupunctue, needle retention time is until the Ahshi Points disappear! Once that stage is reaches, the session ends there! The time needed usually is <5 minutes, but often is as little as 30-60 seconds! In dogs, however, I usually leave the needles in for 10-20 minutes. Dogs have much less Ahshi reaction than horses, and often have NO Ahshi points. Therefore, I cannot use the disappearance of the Ahshi reaction as a good guide in dogs, so I leave the needles in longer. I cannot read animal pulses well. Those who can read the Pulse can use THAT as the index of success, and remove the needles as soon as the Pulse normalises. In humans, I leave the needles in 5-20 minutes, depending on how interesting it is to converse with the client! The more interesting the client, the longer the session. In serious pain cases, I try to get pain relief before I end the session, even if I have to select additional points over my first selection. IMO, as Attilio said, there is no fixed session time. Some of my sources say: Acute/recent cases need shorter needling; chronic cases need longer needling. I play it by ear. Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 Hi Attilio, There is an oral tradition that I've come across many times that coincides with a Western time sequence. The time is 18 minutes or some say 15 to 20 minutes for the Qi to circulate completely in each meridian. This corresponds to short term to long term memory shifting during study rehearsals. Also it's recommended that people sit and eat for at least 20 minutes in order to have the experience of the meal psychologically. This period of time of around 20 minutes seems to come up over and over again in different realms of experience. Emmanuel Segmen - Chinese Medicine Sunday, November 16, 2003 4:54 PM Re: Needle treatment duration??? Hi Dave. To tell you the truth, there is no exact time the needles should be left in for. This is one of the mysteries of TCM as it doesn't come from a quantative background yet we wish to formulise it and measure it. Here is an extract from an article i'm writing:The dose and type of acupuncture may be a factor in effectiveness. Treatment sessions varied from X session to X. the optimum dose may be between these two extremes(Moner 1996, p96). Acupuncture may be useful for some clients, but the best techniques: duration, length of treatment, types of patients and appropriate psychosocial adjuncts, remains to be clarified (Konefal, Duncan and Clemence 1995, p8). The literature is characterized by this substantial procedural variability and very little empirical evidence for any particular combination of sessions and days. There is a clear need for work designed to determine in a parametric way the minimal number of sessions for an effective `dose' of acupuncture (McLellan, Grossman, Blaine and Haverkos (1993, p571). One 20 minute session per day of bilateral application for a 10 day period appears to be the minimal conditions necessary for effective treatment of substance abuse problems such as cocaine detoxification (McLellan, Grossman, Blaine and Haverkos (1993, p575). Hope that helps...AttilioDavid Razo <ozar14> wrote:> Hello,> > What is the proper duration for a needles treatment?> > I have received different responses from different> people, which is making me quite proplexed to say the> least. One person has told me 30 minutes is sufficent> for a needle treatment. Another person has told me 45> minutes is the necessary time for a needle treatment. > A different person told me 15 minutes on each side is> good.> > I don't know if there is any truth to this but someone> told me that an acupuncturist should know judge a> needle treatment by time alone. The guy continued to> say that during a needle treatment Qi travels in> cycles. This cycles has hills and valleys similar to> a wave. He said, "what is important is to take out> the needle at the peak of the wave (hill)".> > If there is any truth to this how do you identify this> wave?> > Thanks, David> > > > Protect your identity with Mail AddressGuard> http://antispam./whatsnewfreeMembership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ click ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. To send an email to<Chinese Medicine- > from the email account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but will still recieve messages for a few days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 Some schools teach that tonification require very little time, the needle goes in and out immediately, while sedation require that the needles are left for a long time; how do you know when it is time to take the needles out? when you feel a sufficient change in the pulse, or when the patient looks totally relaxed (or completely bored depending on the acupuncturist chosen conversation....) or if the pain as subsided. It really comes to clinical experience. Acupuncture is an empirical system of medicine, so you decide these things empirically. Scientific experiments so far have only demonstrated that acupuncture works in certain circumstances. It has never demonstrated how it works or why, in the reductionist, biochemical approach of the modern scientist. Acupuncture is a system of healing, so some kind of healing must take place, this is when it is time to take the needle out, when you feel that the healing has happened. You can often see this by the usual methods employed in TCM for diagnostic: feeling, asking, seeing, hearing. Am I patronizing or is this as good an answer as one can get? Regards, PJ On Monday, November 17, 2003, at 12:48 am, David Razo wrote: > Hello, > > What is the proper duration for a needles treatment? > > I have received different responses from different > people, which is making me quite proplexed to say the > least. One person has told me 30 minutes is sufficent > for a needle treatment. Another person has told me 45 > minutes is the necessary time for a needle treatment. > A different person told me 15 minutes on each side is > good. > > I don't know if there is any truth to this but someone > told me that an acupuncturist should know judge a > needle treatment by time alone. The guy continued to > say that during a needle treatment Qi travels in > cycles. This cycles has hills and valleys similar to > a wave. He said, " what is important is to take out > the needle at the peak of the wave (hill) " . > > If there is any truth to this how do you identify this > wave? > > Thanks, David > > > > Protect your identity with Mail AddressGuard > http://antispam./whatsnewfree > <image.tiff> > > > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, > religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. > > To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or > none, visit the groupsí homepage: > Chinese Medicine/ click > ëedit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. > > To send an email to > <Chinese Medicine- > from the > email account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but > will still recieve messages for a few days. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 I thought it was the other way around. That reducing method was powerful but of short duration and that the tonifying method required a longer duration. /Jonas > Some schools teach that tonification require very little time, the > needle goes in and out immediately, while sedation require that the > needles are left for a long time; how do you know when it is time to > take the needles out? when you feel a sufficient change in the pulse, > or when the patient looks totally relaxed (or completely bored > depending on the acupuncturist chosen conversation....) or if the pain > as subsided. It really comes to clinical experience. > Acupuncture is an empirical system of medicine, so you decide these > things empirically. > Scientific experiments so far have only demonstrated that acupuncture > works in certain circumstances. > It has never demonstrated how it works or why, in the reductionist, > biochemical approach of the modern scientist. > Acupuncture is a system of healing, so some kind of healing must take > place, this is when it is time to take the needle out, when you feel > that the healing has happened. > You can often see this by the usual methods employed in TCM for > diagnostic: feeling, asking, seeing, hearing. > > Am I patronizing or is this as good an answer as one can get? > > Regards, > > PJ > > On Monday, November 17, 2003, at 12:48 am, David Razo wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> What is the proper duration for a needles treatment? >> >> I have received different responses from different >> people, which is making me quite proplexed to say the >> least. One person has told me 30 minutes is sufficent >> for a needle treatment. Another person has told me 45 >> minutes is the necessary time for a needle treatment. >> A different person told me 15 minutes on each side is >> good. >> >> I don't know if there is any truth to this but someone >> told me that an acupuncturist should know judge a >> needle treatment by time alone. The guy continued to >> say that during a needle treatment Qi travels in >> cycles. This cycles has hills and valleys similar to >> a wave. He said, " what is important is to take out >> the needle at the peak of the wave (hill) " . >> >> If there is any truth to this how do you identify this >> wave? >> >> Thanks, David >> >> >> >> Protect your identity with Mail AddressGuard >> http://antispam./whatsnewfree >> > <image.tiff> >> >> >> Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, >> religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. >> >> To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or >> none, visit the groupsí homepage: >> Chinese Medicine/ click >> ëedit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. >> >> To send an email to >> <Chinese Medicine- > from the >> email account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but >> will still recieve messages for a few days. >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 Hi Emmanuel, Why 20 minutes? Is there anything sacred in 20 minuites. Like for example, there are 365 acupoints which correspond to the number of days and there are 12 major meridians which relate to the twelve months. Attilio " Emmanuel Segmen " <susegmen@i...> wrote: > Hi Attilio, > > There is an oral tradition that I've come across many times that coincides with a Western time sequence. The time is 18 minutes or some say 15 to 20 minutes for the Qi to circulate completely in each meridian. This corresponds to short term to long term memory shifting during study rehearsals. Also it's recommended that people sit and eat for at least 20 minutes in order to have the experience of the meal psychologically. This period of time of around 20 minutes seems to come up over and over again in different realms of experience. > > Emmanuel Segmen > > - > > Chinese Medicine > Sunday, November 16, 2003 4:54 PM > Re: Needle treatment duration??? > > > Hi Dave. To tell you the truth, there is no exact time the needles > should be left in for. This is one of the mysteries of TCM as it > doesn't come from a quantative background yet we wish to formulise > it and measure it. Here is an extract from an article i'm writing: > > > The dose and type of acupuncture may be a factor in effectiveness. > Treatment sessions varied from X session to X. the optimum dose may > be between these two extremes(Moner 1996, p96). Acupuncture may be > useful for some clients, but the best techniques: duration, length > of treatment, types of patients and appropriate psychosocial > adjuncts, remains to be clarified (Konefal, Duncan and Clemence > 1995, p8). The literature is characterized by this substantial > procedural variability and very little empirical evidence for any > particular combination of sessions and days. There is a clear need > for work designed to determine in a parametric way the minimal > number of sessions for an effective `dose' of acupuncture (McLellan, > Grossman, Blaine and Haverkos (1993, p571). One 20 minute session > per day of bilateral application for a 10 day period appears to be > the minimal conditions necessary for effective treatment of > substance abuse problems such as cocaine detoxification (McLellan, > Grossman, Blaine and Haverkos (1993, p575). > > Hope that helps... > > Attilio > > > David Razo <ozar14> wrote: > > Hello, > > > > What is the proper duration for a needles treatment? > > > > I have received different responses from different > > people, which is making me quite proplexed to say the > > least. One person has told me 30 minutes is sufficent > > for a needle treatment. Another person has told me 45 > > minutes is the necessary time for a needle treatment. > > A different person told me 15 minutes on each side is > > good. > > > > I don't know if there is any truth to this but someone > > told me that an acupuncturist should know judge a > > needle treatment by time alone. The guy continued to > > say that during a needle treatment Qi travels in > > cycles. This cycles has hills and valleys similar to > > a wave. He said, " what is important is to take out > > the needle at the peak of the wave (hill) " . > > > > If there is any truth to this how do you identify this > > wave? > > > > Thanks, David > > > > > > > > Protect your identity with Mail AddressGuard > > http://antispam./whatsnewfree > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 According to my TCM-teacher the 12 meridians correspond to the 12 major rivers of China. These rivers were like the veins of our body, essential to all life. /Jonas 2003-11-17 kl. 23.04 skrev : > Hi Emmanuel, > > Why 20 minutes? Is there anything sacred in 20 minuites. Like for > example, there are 365 acupoints which correspond to the number of > days and there are 12 major meridians which relate to the twelve > months. > > Attilio > > > " Emmanuel Segmen " <susegmen@i...> wrote: > > Hi Attilio, > > > > There is an oral tradition that I've come across many times that > coincides with a Western time sequence. The time is 18 minutes or > some say 15 to 20 minutes for the Qi to circulate completely in each > meridian. This corresponds to short term to long term memory > shifting during study rehearsals. Also it's recommended that people > sit and eat for at least 20 minutes in order to have the experience > of the meal psychologically. This period of time of around 20 > minutes seems to come up over and over again in different realms of > experience. > > > > Emmanuel Segmen > > > > - > > > > Chinese Medicine > > Sunday, November 16, 2003 4:54 PM > > Re: Needle treatment duration??? > > > > > > Hi Dave. To tell you the truth, there is no exact time the > needles > > should be left in for. This is one of the mysteries of TCM as it > > doesn't come from a quantative background yet we wish to > formulise > > it and measure it. Here is an extract from an article i'm > writing: > > > > > > The dose and type of acupuncture may be a factor in > effectiveness. > > Treatment sessions varied from X session to X. the optimum dose > may > > be between these two extremes(Moner 1996, p96). Acupuncture may > be > > useful for some clients, but the best techniques: duration, > length > > of treatment, types of patients and appropriate psychosocial > > adjuncts, remains to be clarified (Konefal, Duncan and Clemence > > 1995, p8). The literature is characterized by this substantial > > procedural variability and very little empirical evidence for > any > > particular combination of sessions and days. There is a clear > need > > for work designed to determine in a parametric way the minimal > > number of sessions for an effective `dose' of acupuncture > (McLellan, > > Grossman, Blaine and Haverkos (1993, p571). One 20 minute > session > > per day of bilateral application for a 10 day period appears to > be > > the minimal conditions necessary for effective treatment of > > substance abuse problems such as cocaine detoxification > (McLellan, > > Grossman, Blaine and Haverkos (1993, p575). > > > > Hope that helps... > > > > Attilio > > > > > > David Razo <ozar14> wrote: > > > Hello, > > > > > > What is the proper duration for a needles treatment? > > > > > > I have received different responses from different > > > people, which is making me quite proplexed to say the > > > least. One person has told me 30 minutes is sufficent > > > for a needle treatment. Another person has told me 45 > > > minutes is the necessary time for a needle treatment. > > > A different person told me 15 minutes on each side is > > > good. > > > > > > I don't know if there is any truth to this but someone > > > told me that an acupuncturist should know judge a > > > needle treatment by time alone. The guy continued to > > > say that during a needle treatment Qi travels in > > > cycles. This cycles has hills and valleys similar to > > > a wave. He said, " what is important is to take out > > > the needle at the peak of the wave (hill) " . > > > > > > If there is any truth to this how do you identify this > > > wave? > > > > > > Thanks, David > > > > > > > > > > > > Protect your identity with Mail AddressGuard > > >http://antispam./whatsnewfree > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2003 Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 Attilio, Apparently regarding mental processing I guess there is something sacred about 20 minutes. That's how long it takes for short term memory to become long term memory on things you are concentrating on. Learning experts indicate it's time to rest after a 20 minute effort and to proceed with 20 minute cycles of effort. It's also important for daily rituals like eating. Something neural gets fired off perhaps in the hypothalamus if you focus on eating your meal for 20 minutes. I suspect that some neural reactions occur which then get consolidated in sleep. When you practice your musical instrument, the next day it's exponentially easier to play that practiced piece of music. So I was not too surprised when I had heard it from several sources that Qi cycles in the meridians take this amount of time as well. I've never seen this written anywhere. Only heard it by word of mouth. I would agree with others that such things must be case sensitive. But it might also be useful to look for humans to accomplish things in 20 minute cycles ... physically, mentally and otherwise. Emmanuel Segmen - Chinese Medicine Monday, November 17, 2003 3:04 PM Re: Needle treatment duration??? Hi Emmanuel,Why 20 minutes? Is there anything sacred in 20 minuites. Like for example, there are 365 acupoints which correspond to the number of days and there are 12 major meridians which relate to the twelve months.Attilio"Emmanuel Segmen" <susegmen@i...> wrote:> Hi Attilio,> > There is an oral tradition that I've come across many times that coincides with a Western time sequence. The time is 18 minutes or some say 15 to 20 minutes for the Qi to circulate completely in each meridian. This corresponds to short term to long term memory shifting during study rehearsals. Also it's recommended that people sit and eat for at least 20 minutes in order to have the experience of the meal psychologically. This period of time of around 20 minutes seems to come up over and over again in different realms of experience. > > Emmanuel Segmen> > - > > Chinese Medicine > Sunday, November 16, 2003 4:54 PM> Re: Needle treatment duration???> > > Hi Dave. To tell you the truth, there is no exact time the needles > should be left in for. This is one of the mysteries of TCM as it > doesn't come from a quantative background yet we wish to formulise > it and measure it. Here is an extract from an article i'm writing:> > > The dose and type of acupuncture may be a factor in effectiveness. > Treatment sessions varied from X session to X. the optimum dose may > be between these two extremes(Moner 1996, p96). Acupuncture may be > useful for some clients, but the best techniques: duration, length > of treatment, types of patients and appropriate psychosocial > adjuncts, remains to be clarified (Konefal, Duncan and Clemence > 1995, p8). The literature is characterized by this substantial > procedural variability and very little empirical evidence for any > particular combination of sessions and days. There is a clear need > for work designed to determine in a parametric way the minimal > number of sessions for an effective `dose' of acupuncture (McLellan, > Grossman, Blaine and Haverkos (1993, p571). One 20 minute session > per day of bilateral application for a 10 day period appears to be > the minimal conditions necessary for effective treatment of > substance abuse problems such as cocaine detoxification (McLellan, > Grossman, Blaine and Haverkos (1993, p575). > > Hope that helps...> > Attilio> > > David Razo <ozar14> wrote:> > Hello,> > > > What is the proper duration for a needles treatment?> > > > I have received different responses from different> > people, which is making me quite proplexed to say the> > least. One person has told me 30 minutes is sufficent> > for a needle treatment. Another person has told me 45> > minutes is the necessary time for a needle treatment. > > A different person told me 15 minutes on each side is> > good.> > > > I don't know if there is any truth to this but someone> > told me that an acupuncturist should know judge a> > needle treatment by time alone. The guy continued to> > say that during a needle treatment Qi travels in> > cycles. This cycles has hills and valleys similar to> > a wave. He said, "what is important is to take out> > the needle at the peak of the wave (hill)".> > > > If there is any truth to this how do you identify this> > wave?> > > > Thanks, David> > > > > > > > Protect your identity with Mail AddressGuard> > http://antispam./whatsnewfree> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2003 Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 21 minute is, I think the time of an Alpha cycle in the brain, often you can see patient relax deeply during a treatment; it could be attributed to the shot of endorphins released when the patient feels the needle. Often, once the needle are inserted you will see the patient " dozing off " he or she goes in the state similar to just before falling asleep; this last usually for about 21 minutes, then you see the patient wide awake again: it is then time to take off all the needles, the job is done. Regards, PJ On Tuesday, November 18, 2003, at 02:35 am, Emmanuel Segmen wrote: > Attilio, > > Apparently regarding mental processing I guess there is something > sacred about 20 minutes. That's how long it takes for short term > memory to become long term memory on things you are concentrating > on. Learning experts indicate it's time to rest after a 20 minute > effort and to proceed with 20 minute cycles of effort. It's also > important for daily rituals like eating. Something neural gets fired > off perhaps in the hypothalamus if you focus on eating your meal for > 20 minutes. I suspect that some neural reactions occur which then > get consolidated in sleep. When you practice your musical instrument, > the next day it's exponentially easier to play that practiced piece of > music. So I was not too surprised when I had heard it from several > sources that Qi cycles in the meridians take this amount of time as > well. I've never seen this written anywhere. Only heard it by word > of mouth. I would agree with others that such things must be case > sensitive. But it might also be useful to look for humans to > accomplish things in 20 minute cycles ... physically, mentally and > otherwise. > > Emmanuel Segmen > > > - > > Chinese Medicine > Monday, November 17, 2003 3:04 PM > Re: Needle treatment duration??? > > Hi Emmanuel, > > Why 20 minutes? Is there anything sacred in 20 minuites. Like for > example, there are 365 acupoints which correspond to the number of > days and there are 12 major meridians which relate to the twelve > months. > > Attilio > > > " Emmanuel Segmen " <susegmen@i...> wrote: > > Hi Attilio, > > > > There is an oral tradition that I've come across many times that > coincides with a Western time sequence. The time is 18 minutes or > some say 15 to 20 minutes for the Qi to circulate completely in each > meridian. This corresponds to short term to long term memory > shifting during study rehearsals. Also it's recommended that people > sit and eat for at least 20 minutes in order to have the experience > of the meal psychologically. This period of time of around 20 > minutes seems to come up over and over again in different realms of > experience. > > > > Emmanuel Segmen > > > > - > > > > Chinese Medicine > > Sunday, November 16, 2003 4:54 PM > > Re: Needle treatment duration??? > > > > > > Hi Dave. To tell you the truth, there is no exact time the > needles > > should be left in for. This is one of the mysteries of TCM as it > > doesn't come from a quantative background yet we wish to > formulise > > it and measure it. Here is an extract from an article i'm > writing: > > > > > > The dose and type of acupuncture may be a factor in > effectiveness. > > Treatment sessions varied from X session to X. the optimum dose > may > > be between these two extremes(Moner 1996, p96). Acupuncture may > be > > useful for some clients, but the best techniques: duration, > length > > of treatment, types of patients and appropriate psychosocial > > adjuncts, remains to be clarified (Konefal, Duncan and Clemence > > 1995, p8). The literature is characterized by this substantial > > procedural variability and very little empirical evidence for > any > > particular combination of sessions and days. There is a clear > need > > for work designed to determine in a parametric way the minimal > > number of sessions for an effective `dose' of acupuncture > (McLellan, > > Grossman, Blaine and Haverkos (1993, p571). One 20 minute > session > > per day of bilateral application for a 10 day period appears to > be > > the minimal conditions necessary for effective treatment of > > substance abuse problems such as cocaine detoxification > (McLellan, > > Grossman, Blaine and Haverkos (1993, p575). > > > > Hope that helps... > > > > Attilio > > > > > > David Razo <ozar14> wrote: > > > Hello, > > > > > > What is the proper duration for a needles treatment? > > > > > > I have received different responses from different > > > people, which is making me quite proplexed to say the > > > least. One person has told me 30 minutes is sufficent > > > for a needle treatment. Another person has told me 45 > > > minutes is the necessary time for a needle treatment. > > > A different person told me 15 minutes on each side is > > > good. > > > > > > I don't know if there is any truth to this but someone > > > told me that an acupuncturist should know judge a > > > needle treatment by time alone. The guy continued to > > > say that during a needle treatment Qi travels in > > > cycles. This cycles has hills and valleys similar to > > > a wave. He said, " what is important is to take out > > > the needle at the peak of the wave (hill) " . > > > > > > If there is any truth to this how do you identify this > > > wave? > > > > > > Thanks, David > > > > > > > > > > > > Protect your identity with Mail AddressGuard > > > http://antispam./whatsnewfree > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2003 Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 Hi All, & Pierre, Pierre wrote: > 21 minute is, I think the time of an Alpha cycle in the brain, > often you can see patient relax deeply during a treatment; it could > be attributed to the shot of endorphins released when the patient > feels the needle. Often, once the needle are inserted you will see > the patient " dozing off " he or she goes in the state similar to > just before falling asleep; this last usually for about 21 minutes, > then you see the patient wide awake again: it is then time to take > off all the needles, the job is done. Regards, PJ I see few patients dozing off until well into the session (>15 minutes). As I usually am finished most session by then, I see few of these! Research on endorphins indicates that they are NOT released immediately after needle insertion, but take 20 or more minutes before they peak. I saw several acute back pain [the day after heavy physical lifting or pushing] cases that responded within 5 minutes of needling the new point " Yaotongxue " (Lowback (Loin & Leg) Connecting Point) on the hand dorsum: 2 points per hand: between union of proximal heads of metacarpals 2-3 & 4-5. I have also seen some acute neck pain ( " crick in the neck " ) cases that had relief within 1-5 minutes after needling of the new " Neck & Nape Point " on the hand-dorsum, in web between fingers 2-3, near finger 2 (between the distal heads of metacarpal bones 2-3). My criterion for needling time [in humans] is to retain the needles until they feel some (or, sometimes, total) relief of pain. That may be anywhere from 2 to 30+ minutes, but usually 5-15 minutes. [in an earlier mail, I said 5-20 minutes, but 5-15 would be more accurate for most cases]. In pain cases, I often supplement the needles with a brisk and deep massage with MOOV [Ayurvedic Wintergreen+ rub] of the root area [say the neck in upper limb pain; the lowback in many lower limb pains]. I give the person a tube of MOOV to use for daily massage [after a hot bath or shower before bed] between AP sessions. Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2003 Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 Hello Phil, and others; My comment was purely speculative, I think we both agree that ultimately, it come down to clinical experience and you take off the needle when you know intuitively (you feel that) they have done their job. I remember one of my teacher of a long time ago, Dr Le once said to me very seriously " acupuncture, it's the first 20 years that are difficult; after that it's a feeling! On Tuesday, November 18, 2003, at 03:31 pm, wrote: > Hi All, & Pierre, > > Pierre wrote: > > 21 minute is, I think the time of an Alpha cycle in the brain, > > often you can see patient relax deeply during a treatment; it could > > be attributed to the shot of endorphins released when the patient > > feels the needle. Often, once the needle are inserted you will see > > the patient " dozing off " he or she goes in the state similar to > > just before falling asleep; this last usually for about 21 minutes, > > then you see the patient wide awake again: it is then time to take > > off all the needles, the job is done. Regards, PJ > > I see few patients dozing off until well into the session (>15 > minutes). As I usually am finished most session by then, I see few > of these! > > Research on endorphins indicates that they are NOT released > immediately after needle insertion, but take 20 or more minutes > before they peak. > > I saw several acute back pain [the day after heavy physical lifting or > pushing] cases that responded within 5 minutes of needling the > new point " Yaotongxue " (Lowback (Loin & Leg) Connecting Point) > on the hand dorsum: 2 points per hand: between union of proximal > heads of metacarpals 2-3 & 4-5. > > I have also seen some acute neck pain ( " crick in the neck " ) cases > that had relief within 1-5 minutes after needling of the new " Neck & > Nape Point " on the hand-dorsum, in web between fingers 2-3, near > finger 2 (between the distal heads of metacarpal bones 2-3). > > My criterion for needling time [in humans] is to retain the needles > until they feel some (or, sometimes, total) relief of pain. That may > be anywhere from 2 to 30+ minutes, but usually 5-15 minutes. [in > an earlier mail, I said 5-20 minutes, but 5-15 would be more > accurate for most cases]. > > In pain cases, I often supplement the needles with a brisk and > deep massage with MOOV [Ayurvedic Wintergreen+ rub] of the > root area [say the neck in upper limb pain; the lowback in many > lower limb pains]. I give the person a tube of MOOV to use for daily > massage [after a hot bath or shower before bed] between AP > sessions. Best regards, > > Email: < > > WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland > Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] > > HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland > Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] > WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm > <image.tiff> > > > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, > religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. > > To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or > none, visit the groupsí homepage: > Chinese Medicine/ click > ëedit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. > > To send an email to > <Chinese Medicine- > from the > email account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but > will still recieve messages for a few days. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2003 Report Share Posted November 22, 2003 Please see my post concerning this issue in relation to sedation/tonification methods under this link: http://www.acumedico.com/discus/messages/25/124.html?1069493697 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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