Guest guest Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 I've just read in an article that 'it is thought that disease is caused by an imblanace in a person's energy, Qi, and that resuming a balance will help people heal themselves (Mantle 1996)'. I thought that the concept of homeostasis doesn't exist in CM. Rather there is a constant state of flux in the body's energetic system. What do others have to say about this? Attilio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 Attilio, My study with Nam Singh, a taoist priest and CM practitioner here in S.F., indicates the three principles of taoist with respect to CM is: Balance Synchronicity Uninhibited flow of Qi He elaborates endlessly on each theme from both oral and written traditions. I've employed many of his views to deepen my understanding of homeostasis as well as the idea of overcoming stasis to return normal flow of Qi. Due to Nam's endless elaborations, I'm discovering endless correlations between my own study of physiology and my studies of CM. Respectfully, Emmanuel Segmen - Chinese Medicine Sunday, November 02, 2003 1:40 AM Homeostasis in CM I've just read in an article that 'it is thought that disease is caused by an imblanace in a person's energy, Qi, and that resuming a balance will help people heal themselves (Mantle 1996)'.I thought that the concept of homeostasis doesn't exist in CM. Rather there is a constant state of flux in the body's energetic system.What do others have to say about this?AttilioMembership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ click ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. To send an email to<Chinese Medicine- > from the email account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but will still recieve messages for a few days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 Hi Emmanuel, Does that mean in terms of CM that the body can hela itself? As i thought, the body needs a constant intervention to achieve balance as its unable to find that balance by itself. Personally, i disagree. I believe that the body is constantly trying to find that balance by itself and sometimes needs a push in the right direction. Attilio " Emmanuel Segmen " <susegmen@i...> wrote: > Attilio, > > My study with Nam Singh, a taoist priest and CM practitioner here in S.F., indicates the three principles of taoist with respect to CM is: > > Balance > Synchronicity > Uninhibited flow of Qi > > He elaborates endlessly on each theme from both oral and written traditions. I've employed many of his views to deepen my understanding of homeostasis as well as the idea of overcoming stasis to return normal flow of Qi. Due to Nam's endless elaborations, I'm discovering endless correlations between my own study of physiology and my studies of CM. > > Respectfully, > Emmanuel Segmen > > - > > Chinese Medicine > Sunday, November 02, 2003 1:40 AM > Homeostasis in CM > > > I've just read in an article that 'it is thought that disease is > caused by an imblanace in a person's energy, Qi, and that resuming a > balance will help people heal themselves (Mantle 1996)'. > > I thought that the concept of homeostasis doesn't exist in CM. > Rather there is a constant state of flux in the body's energetic > system. > > What do others have to say about this? > > Attilio > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 wrote: > I've just read in an article that 'it is thought that disease is > caused by an imblanace in a person's energy, Qi, and that resuming > a balance will help people heal themselves (Mantle 1996)'. > I thought that the concept of homeostasis doesn't exist in CM. I would interpret/define homeostasis as a dynamic balance, which is of course the basis of CM. > Rather there is a constant state of flux in the body's energetic > system. Qi must be abundant and free flowing. An inhibited flow of qi is a body out of balance. Where is your problem? I think, I'm missing the crux of your problem with the statement you refered to. Alwin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 Sorry Alwin. I remember reading somewhere that there is no such thing as homeostasis in TCM. And that the body cannot reach homeostais by itself. This may be the reason why there is always something wrong with a person in TCM and why they always need TCM treatment. Your right, in CM homeostasis is a dynamic balance. Yet this balance never exists. We all try to achieve this but never get there. Perhaps this is how life should be, as we can never finish our journey. Attilio " Alwin van Egmond " <@v...> wrote: > wrote: > > I've just read in an article that 'it is thought that disease is > > caused by an imblanace in a person's energy, Qi, and that resuming > > a balance will help people heal themselves (Mantle 1996)'. > > I thought that the concept of homeostasis doesn't exist in CM. > > I would interpret/define homeostasis as a dynamic balance, which is > of course the basis of CM. > > > > Rather there is a constant state of flux in the body's energetic > > system. > > Qi must be abundant and free flowing. An inhibited flow of qi is a > body out of balance. > > Where is your problem? I think, I'm missing the crux of your problem > with the statement you refered to. > > Alwin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 " " wrote: > Sorry Alwin. Nothing to apologise about! Please don't. > I remember reading somewhere that there is no such > thing as homeostasis in TCM. And that the body cannot reach > homeostais by itself. This may be the reason why there is always > something wrong with a person in TCM and why they always need TCM > treatment. There is no end, no goal to be reached; where is the beginning or the end of a circle? The way you use the word homeostasis has in my ears a ring about it that you are looking for a fixed point around which it may dynamically balance. IMO there is no fixed point, it is moving all the time and as long as we can dynamically balance around this moving 'point' its OK. I view it as a floating bubble in space/time. What do you call " wrong " ? Everybody is at any moment in time somewhere in his moving dynamic balance. When do you consider a person to be out of his dynamic balance in such a way that intervention is necesarry? IMO when a person comes for help because he realises he can't manage it anymore on his own. And then its for us to bring him back within his moving dynamic balance in such a way that can again cope with it on his own. > Your right, in CM homeostasis is a dynamic balance. Yet this > balance never exists. > We all try to achieve this but never get there. Of course there is a dynamic balance! But it is alway on the move, so there is no fixed point to achieve. The body/mind/spirit takes care of itself if we listen to it and to the requirements of nature and act accordingly. > Perhaps this is how life should be, as we can never finish our > journey. There is no end, only the way. Alwin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 Magnificent! Wonderful! No-one knows the final word. The sea bed is in flames, Out of the void leap wooden lambs.Alwin van Egmond < wrote: "" wrote:> Sorry Alwin. Nothing to apologise about! Please don't.> I remember reading somewhere that there is no such > thing as homeostasis in TCM. And that the body cannot reach > homeostais by itself. This may be the reason why there is always > something wrong with a person in TCM and why they always need TCM > treatment.There is no end, no goal to be reached; where is the beginning or the end of a circle? The way you use the word homeostasis has in my ears a ring about it that you are looking for a fixed point around which it may dynamically balance. IMO there is no fixed point, it is moving all the time and as long as we can dynamically balance around this moving 'point' its OK. I view it as a floating bubble in space/time.What do you call "wrong"? Everybody is at any moment in time somewhere in his moving dynamic balance. When do you consider a person to be out of his dynamic balance in such a way that intervention is necesarry? IMO when a person comes for help because he realises he can't manage it anymore on his own. And then its for us to bring him back within his moving dynamic balance in such a way that can again cope with it on his own.> Your right, in CM homeostasis is a dynamic balance. Yet this > balance never exists. > We all try to achieve this but never get there. Of course there is a dynamic balance! But it is alway on the move, so there is no fixed point to achieve. The body/mind/spirit takes care of itself if we listen to it and to the requirements of nature and act accordingly.> Perhaps this is how life should be, as we can never finish our > journey.There is no end, only the way.Alwin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 I agree that homeostasis almost never exists in TCM with the possible rare exceptions of some advanced qigong practitioners. One reason is that the kidney Qi is always dissipating/decreasing in ordinary people - it is always in a negative balance unless one can replete through extraordinary practice. <attiliodalberto wrote: Sorry Alwin. I remember reading somewhere that there is no such thing as homeostasis in TCM. And that the body cannot reach homeostais by itself. This may be the reason why there is always something wrong with a person in TCM and why they always need TCM treatment.Your right, in CM homeostasis is a dynamic balance. Yet this balance never exists. We all try to achieve this but never get there. Perhaps this is how life should be, as we can never finish our journey.Attilio"Alwin van Egmond" <@v...> wrote:> wrote:> > I've just read in an article that 'it is thought that disease is > > caused by an imblanace in a person's energy, Qi, and that resuming > > a balance will help people heal themselves (Mantle 1996)'.> > I thought that the concept of homeostasis doesn't exist in CM. > > I would interpret/define homeostasis as a dynamic balance, which is > of course the basis of CM.> > > > Rather there is a constant state of flux in the body's energetic > > system.> > Qi must be abundant and free flowing. An inhibited flow of qi is a > body out of balance. > > Where is your problem? I think, I'm missing the crux of your problem > with the statement you refered to.> > AlwinMembership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, visit the groups?homepage: Chinese Medicine/ click 慹dit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. To send an email to<Chinese Medicine- > from the email account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but will still recieve messages for a few days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 All, Merriam-Webster http://www.m-w.com/home.htm Main Entry: ho·meo·sta·sis Pronunciation: " hO-mE-O-'stA-s & s Function: noun Etymology: New Latin 1926 : a relatively stable state of equilibrium or a tendency toward such a state between the different but interdependent elements or groups of elements of an organism, population, or group After reading the above, do you still think that homeostasis is not relevant in TCM? How about you 5 Elements folks? What do you think? Fernando Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 Thank you Fernando. I was thinking of homeostasis are being more of a fixed notion. Attilio " Fernando Bernall " <fbernall@a...> wrote: > All, > > > Merriam-Webster > http://www.m-w.com/home.htm > > Main Entry: ho·meo·sta·sis > Pronunciation: " hO-mE-O-'stA-s & s > Function: noun > Etymology: New Latin > 1926 > : a relatively stable state of equilibrium or a tendency toward such > a state between the different but interdependent elements or groups > of elements of an organism, population, or group > > After reading the above, do you still think that homeostasis is not > relevant in TCM? How about you 5 Elements folks? What do you think? > > Fernando Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 Attilio, What aspect of homeostasis is internal or external? Choosing to sleep reasonable hours, choosing to eat moderately with high nutrition, choosing to engage in cultivation practices .... Are these interventions? Are these attunements to "balance" and "synchronicity" in the pursuit of "uninhibited flow of Qi". It seems that during good sleep, healing takes place. It seems that with good nutrition a wound will heal. How could one not see that the "healing" arose from both internal and external homeostasis. The saying from some taoist teachings that I've heard quoted is that "the body is nothing but a habit". Yes, your body will heal quite well you could say of its own accord. However, this is only true if you create and apply good habits that lead to balance, synchronicity and uninhibited flow of qi. No? So homeostasis has its external interventions as simply applied as eating and sleeping. It also has an internal momentum of its own. Homeostasis implies steady state metabolism in which you provide an intake of many things into the system and allow for an output of wastes and energetic endeavors. Thus, a strong homeostasis that can provide maximum healing benefits is one that is highly attuned through conscious discipline ... in my opinion. Emmanuel Segmen - Chinese Medicine Sunday, November 02, 2003 2:11 AM Re: Homeostasis in CM Hi Emmanuel,Does that mean in terms of CM that the body can hela itself? As i thought, the body needs a constant intervention to achieve balance as its unable to find that balance by itself.Personally, i disagree. I believe that the body is constantly trying to find that balance by itself and sometimes needs a push in the right direction.Attilio"Emmanuel Segmen" <susegmen@i...> wrote:> Attilio,> > My study with Nam Singh, a taoist priest and CM practitioner here in S.F., indicates the three principles of taoist with respect to CM is:> > Balance> Synchronicity> Uninhibited flow of Qi> > He elaborates endlessly on each theme from both oral and written traditions. I've employed many of his views to deepen my understanding of homeostasis as well as the idea of overcoming stasis to return normal flow of Qi. Due to Nam's endless elaborations, I'm discovering endless correlations between my own study of physiology and my studies of CM. > > Respectfully,> Emmanuel Segmen> > - > > Chinese Medicine > Sunday, November 02, 2003 1:40 AM> Homeostasis in CM> > > I've just read in an article that 'it is thought that disease is > caused by an imblanace in a person's energy, Qi, and that resuming a > balance will help people heal themselves (Mantle 1996)'.> > I thought that the concept of homeostasis doesn't exist in CM. > Rather there is a constant state of flux in the body's energetic > system.> > What do others have to say about this?> > Attilio> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 Correction of typo: Thus, a strong homeostasis that can provide maximum healing benefits if one that is highly attuned through conscious discipline ... in my opinion. This is the "intervention" that I believe is required to maintain the homeostasis that is ongoing. Emmanuel Segmen - Emmanuel Segmen Chinese Medicine Sunday, November 02, 2003 12:31 PM Re: Homeostasis in CM Attilio, What aspect of homeostasis is internal or external? Choosing to sleep reasonable hours, choosing to eat moderately with high nutrition, choosing to engage in cultivation practices .... Are these interventions? Are these attunements to "balance" and "synchronicity" in the pursuit of "uninhibited flow of Qi". It seems that during good sleep, healing takes place. It seems that with good nutrition a wound will heal. How could one not see that the "healing" arose from both internal and external homeostasis. The saying from some taoist teachings that I've heard quoted is that "the body is nothing but a habit". Yes, your body will heal quite well you could say of its own accord. However, this is only true if you create and apply good habits that lead to balance, synchronicity and uninhibited flow of qi. No? So homeostasis has its external interventions as simply applied as eating and sleeping. It also has an internal momentum of its own. Homeostasis implies steady state metabolism in which you provide an intake of many things into the system and allow for an output of wastes and energetic endeavors. Thus, a strong homeostasis that can provide maximum healing benefits is one that is highly attuned through conscious discipline ... in my opinion. Emmanuel Segmen - Chinese Medicine Sunday, November 02, 2003 2:11 AM Re: Homeostasis in CM Hi Emmanuel,Does that mean in terms of CM that the body can hela itself? As i thought, the body needs a constant intervention to achieve balance as its unable to find that balance by itself.Personally, i disagree. I believe that the body is constantly trying to find that balance by itself and sometimes needs a push in the right direction.Attilio"Emmanuel Segmen" <susegmen@i...> wrote:> Attilio,> > My study with Nam Singh, a taoist priest and CM practitioner here in S.F., indicates the three principles of taoist with respect to CM is:> > Balance> Synchronicity> Uninhibited flow of Qi> > He elaborates endlessly on each theme from both oral and written traditions. I've employed many of his views to deepen my understanding of homeostasis as well as the idea of overcoming stasis to return normal flow of Qi. Due to Nam's endless elaborations, I'm discovering endless correlations between my own study of physiology and my studies of CM. > > Respectfully,> Emmanuel Segmen> > - > > Chinese Medicine > Sunday, November 02, 2003 1:40 AM> Homeostasis in CM> > > I've just read in an article that 'it is thought that disease is > caused by an imblanace in a person's energy, Qi, and that resuming a > balance will help people heal themselves (Mantle 1996)'.> > I thought that the concept of homeostasis doesn't exist in CM. > Rather there is a constant state of flux in the body's energetic > system.> > What do others have to say about this?> > Attilio> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 Fernando and Attilio, Biochemists and physiologists distinguish strongly between chemical equilibrium (equals death) and homeostasis (equals life). Equilibrium is a system at rest ... no input or output. Homeostasis requires constant attention to input and output, the result of which is balance. We only get equilibrium once ... at the end. Until then we must attend to the balance of our homeostasis. Most well attuned biochemists would consider the use of the term equilibrium in the same breath with homeostasis to be somewhat undisciplined thinking. Thus, the Merriam-Webster definition could not be used well in a scientific setting. However, I know what you mean, Fernando, and the definition below does lend itself to clear views of what's taught in CM. Emmanuel Segmen - Chinese Medicine Sunday, November 02, 2003 11:31 AM Re: Homeostasis in CM Thank you Fernando. I was thinking of homeostasis are being more of a fixed notion.Attilio"Fernando Bernall" <fbernall@a...> wrote:> All,> > > Merriam-Webster> http://www.m-w.com/home.htm> > Main Entry: ho·meo·sta·sis > Pronunciation: "hO-mE-O-'stA-s & s> Function: noun> Etymology: New Latin> 1926> : a relatively stable state of equilibrium or a tendency toward such > a state between the different but interdependent elements or groups > of elements of an organism, population, or group> > After reading the above, do you still think that homeostasis is not > relevant in TCM? How about you 5 Elements folks? What do you think?> > FernandoMembership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ click ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. To send an email to<Chinese Medicine- > from the email account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but will still recieve messages for a few days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 Very interesting the chemical equilibrium. Perhaps thats when we reach a perfect state, at death. I understood homeostasis to mean a balance achieved from a WM point of view. I now understand my concept of homeostasis to be wrong. Yes, we live and strive towards a balance through eating, sleeping and perhaps more importantly through the action of expressing ourselves. It may be that we achieve a chemical equilibrium at death but continue to enjoy balancing homeostasis at another level. Attilio " Emmanuel Segmen " <susegmen@i...> wrote: > Fernando and Attilio, > > Biochemists and physiologists distinguish strongly between chemical equilibrium (equals death) and homeostasis (equals life). Equilibrium is a system at rest ... no input or output. Homeostasis requires constant attention to input and output, the result of which is balance. We only get equilibrium once ... at the end. Until then we must attend to the balance of our homeostasis. Most well attuned biochemists would consider the use of the term equilibrium in the same breath with homeostasis to be somewhat undisciplined thinking. Thus, the Merriam-Webster definition could not be used well in a scientific setting. However, I know what you mean, Fernando, and the definition below does lend itself to clear views of what's taught in CM. > > Emmanuel Segmen > > - > > Chinese Medicine > Sunday, November 02, 2003 11:31 AM > Re: Homeostasis in CM > > > Thank you Fernando. I was thinking of homeostasis are being more of > a fixed notion. > > Attilio > > " Fernando Bernall " <fbernall@a...> wrote: > > All, > > > > > > Merriam-Webster > > http://www.m-w.com/home.htm > > > > Main Entry: ho·meo·sta·sis > > Pronunciation: " hO-mE-O-'stA-s & s > > Function: noun > > Etymology: New Latin > > 1926 > > : a relatively stable state of equilibrium or a tendency toward > such > > a state between the different but interdependent elements or > groups > > of elements of an organism, population, or group > > > > After reading the above, do you still think that homeostasis is > not > > relevant in TCM? How about you 5 Elements folks? What do you think? > > > > Fernando > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 Emmanuel, Very interesting. Thank you brother. Fernando Chinese Medicine , " Emmanuel Segmen " <susegmen@i...> wrote: > Fernando and Attilio, > > Biochemists and physiologists distinguish strongly between chemical equilibrium (equals death) and homeostasis (equals life). Equilibrium is a system at rest ... no input or output. Homeostasis requires constant attention to input and output, the result of which is balance. We only get equilibrium once ... at the end. Until then we must attend to the balance of our homeostasis. Most well attuned biochemists would consider the use of the term equilibrium in the same breath with homeostasis to be somewhat undisciplined thinking. Thus, the Merriam-Webster definition could not be used well in a scientific setting. However, I know what you mean, Fernando, and the definition below does lend itself to clear views of what's taught in CM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 Brother Fernando, If you were here in SF, I'd be at your place as often as Nam Singh's. It's always an honor to exchange energies with you. Your insights continue to grace the pages of my students' notes as those insights also grace the harmony of my thoughts. Brother Emmanuel - Fernando Bernall Chinese Medicine Sunday, November 02, 2003 2:08 PM Re: Homeostasis in CM Emmanuel,Very interesting. Thank you brother.FernandoChinese Medicine , "Emmanuel Segmen" <susegmen@i...> wrote:> Fernando and Attilio,> > Biochemists and physiologists distinguish strongly between chemical equilibrium (equals death) and homeostasis (equals life). Equilibrium is a system at rest ... no input or output. Homeostasis requires constant attention to input and output, the result of which is balance. We only get equilibrium once ... at the end. Until then we must attend to the balance of our homeostasis. Most well attuned biochemists would consider the use of the term equilibrium in the same breath with homeostasis to be somewhat undisciplined thinking. Thus, the Merriam-Webster definition could not be used well in a scientific setting. However, I know what you mean, Fernando, and the definition below does lend itself to clear views of what's taught in CM. Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ click ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. To send an email to<Chinese Medicine- > from the email account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but will still recieve messages for a few days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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