what are meridians/channels?

[Guest guest]

Hi All, & Jimmy,

 

Jimmy Symmonds wrote an apparently innocuous, if not " stupid "

question: " What are Meridians/Channels? "

 

Practitioners who do NOT treat animals may wonder about Jimmy's

professional background! Is he for real? I assure them that Jimmy

is no dunce, and no novice in his field! Hey, he works in one of the

greatest seats of learning in the world - Oxford.

 

Jimmy continued:

> This has huge practical implications especially for those using

> acupuncture/herbal medicine on non-humans – we have based most of

> our field (veterinary acupuncture and herbal medicine) on the early

> western texts that emphasised an “energetics” aspect. We have just

> adopted and transposed the human literature out there. I can see

> the Chinese have a different conceptual model of health/disease.

> But do we all agree on the basic structures involved? Is there

> agreement on the nature of meridians? Jimmy

 

I agree with Jimmy. The problem for us [vets] is that:

 

(a) There are VERY few old texts in Chinese on animal

acupuncture/herbalism relative to human AP/herbalism. For

example there seem to be NO old texts on AP in dogs/cats or

primates.

 

(b) The few available Chinese texts [or their translations] on AP in

domestic animals [horse, ox, sheep, pig, elephant, camel and

goat] are crude, disjointed, contradictory and utterly confusing. No

Channels are described - only isolated acupoints whose names,

locations and uses differ not only BETWEEN species, but also

WITHIN a given species. Also, many of the AP techniques

[bleeding, fire needles, scarring moxa, etc] are totally unacceptable

in western, animal-welfare-minded society.

 

© Although I am not familiar with the Chinese texts on animal

herbalism, I suspect that the problems are the same as in AP.

 

And now to the dilemma. How can one make a Channel Dx, Five-

Element Dx, Six-Level Dx, etc, if the Channels & pathways (and

their implied relationships to Five Elements, Six Levels, etc) are

not recognised?

 

How can one use the Command Points [shu-Mu, Yuan-Luo,

Element Pts [Mother-Son-Grandfather], Xi, Hour, and Influential

Points, if THEY are not recognised?

 

How does one use Herbs active on the LV, HT or SP Channel etc,

if those Channels are not recognised?

 

But, Yehuda, here is where the heretics shine [and not with the

flames of their immolation!]. Pioneering AP vets [Milin in Paris,

Kothbauer in Austria, Westermayer in Germany] decided to use

human transposition in the late 1950s and early 1960s.

 

Then came Nixon's visit to China in 1972. That opened the

floodgates for great interest in AP not only in USA, but in Europe

also.

 

Grady Young, Marvin Cain and David Jaggar founded IVAS [intnl

Vet AP Soc] in 1974, and other pioneers like Shelly Altman [and

several non-vets] supported their endeavours to spread the word,

and train colleagues in their methods.

 

The rest is history. Today, every state in the developed world has

its Vet AP Soc, most affiliated formally, or informally, with IVAS.

And many new recruits are applying for IVAS-approved training

each year.

 

But we (vets) have real problems:

 

(1) TCVM Shu points in horses have a DIFFERENT SEQUENCE

along the spine than those from direct transposition from human

charts [even allowing for the difference between 18 ribs v 12 ribs]

 

(2) Dominique Giniaux, IMO the greatest expert in equine

osteopathy in the world, has written a little book, " What the Horses

have told Me " [a translation from his original book, in French].

Having treated tens of thousands of horses (with great success),

Dominique has documented the paravertebral REFLEX (diagnostic)

points. Some of his points agree with the locations of the TCVM

Shu points, others with the transposition points, and some with

neither system.

 

(3) Are Thoresen, a Norwegian Vet, has treated huge numbers of

horses with a unique 1 or 2 needle method using mainly the Ting

(Jing-Well) points in horses. Are found these points by his unique

method of pulse Dx (HIS temporal pulse).

 

The medial-to-lateral sequence of their locations at the hoof-hair

junction of the equine digit correspond with the medial-to-lateral

sequence of the human Channels at the wrist and ankles.

 

I can verify [having seen Are work, and having used " his " locations

for the terminal points] that his method can be amazingly effective

in horses. Other expert horse vets, including Dominique, Marvin

Cain & Emiel van den Bosch (and many others), agree that Are's

locations for the Ting Points are accurate for Dx and Tx use in their

experience.

 

So where can we go from here? In spite of disagreements on point

locations, Channels, etc, several different methods and concepts

are proving to be of great clinical value in vet AP practice. The

heretics [wizards and witches] are winning, even if they disagree

amongst themselves on some aspects of their craft.

 

Which brings me to a question on this and other lists: " What is

Medicine " - is it an Art, Science, or both. IMO, it is MUCH more an

Art than a Science, an art that leaves gret scope for creativity,

ingenuity, and (most importantly), Yi/the Intention to heal and the

CONVICTION that healing WILL happen - the most basic attribute

of the Magician/Shaman.

 

So, back to Jimmy's question: " What are Meridians/Channels? "

and how should vets use TCM herbs if the infrastructure does not

exist.

 

And a final question: How is it that horses respond very well to

CHM Formulas at doses that are only a fraction of those that one

would expect in relation to human doses/kg bodyweight. The few

[western] vets that are experienced in CHM in horses all seem to

agree on that point - small herbal doses are often very effective in

horses.

 

As far as I know, these colleagues use herbs in the same way [and

with the same TCM reasoning] as practitioners of TCM in humans.

There are some exceptions. For example, Bohe-Menthae Hb and

Mahuang-Ephedrae Hb are not used because thay would show on

dope tests at the race-track.

 

So, fellow professionals in human practice, " What are

Meridians/Channels? " , and what is their importance, if any, in

medicine.

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

[Guest guest]

Phil, Jimmy, Jason, and All,

 

> Jimmy Symmonds wrote an apparently innocuous, if not " stupid "

> question: " What are Meridians/Channels? "

 

Clearly it's not a stupid question.

And since I'm asking it (or questions

just like it) more or less all the time

I'd say it's a downright cool question.

 

I just had another thought about how

we go about responding to questions

like this, and it gets back to

Emmanuel's apt metaphor of the Yellow

Emperor playing various board games

with notable individuals from the West.

 

If we want to know, for example, what

a channel is, what do we do?

 

The habitual response of Westerners,

of course, is to start cutting away

at one's forearm where there are

rumored to exist such channels and

find out where they've been hiding.

 

Whether we cut away with a scalpel

or with some other sort of instrumentality

that allows us to see into the flesh

and all the other tissues and structures

that make up the sandwich that is

surrounded by blood and marrow on

one side and skin on the other,

this approach to the search for

definition is an expression of our

own prejudices.

 

If we begin such a search not by

reference to our own mental habtis

but to those of the folks who

coined and used the term, then at

least we stand some half decent chance

of knowing what they meant. And once

we know what they meant we can

proceed to come to terms with what

this means to us.

 

The curious thing that I've experienced

over the past few years while working

in this mode is that the " they " and " us "

of it all more or less disappears.

 

And I discover that we're all in the

same boat.

 

So we row.

 

Now how do we actually get to a port

in which we share a common knowledge

as to what a channel is?

 

I think it would be a significant

exercise to chart such a course

for this one concept.

 

Far from being a stupid question, Jimmy's

question is brilliant.

 

I'd really appreciate hearing what others

on the list have to say, not just about

what a channel is but about how we should

conduct the search for such definitions.

 

Thanks for your input on this.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

At 2:16 PM +0000 10/22/03, kenrose2008 wrote:

>If we want to know, for example, what

>a channel is, what do we do?

>

>The habitual response of Westerners,

>of course, is to start cutting away

>at one's forearm where there are

>rumored to exist such channels and

>find out where they've been hiding.

>

>Whether we cut away with a scalpel

>or with some other sort of instrumentality

>that allows us to see into the flesh

>and all the other tissues and structures

>that make up the sandwich that is

>surrounded by blood and marrow on

>one side and skin on the other,

>this approach to the search for

>definition is an expression of our

>own prejudices.

--

Ken,

 

I agree with you that we should take care in our approach. However,

this interest in anatomy was apparently shared by people of the Han

dynasty, who performed postmortem examination of human bodies and

used their observations, at least in part, to describe the jing luo

(see Ling Shu, treatise 12, & Unschuld, Medicine in China, History of

Ideas, p. 78). Of course, this anatomical observation of dead bodies,

while allowing a description of structure, would not have allowed for

direct observation of function, which can only really be done in live

bodies; for example, one directional blood flow is a modern idea.

It's also not clear that the whole channel and collateral complex was

anatomically observed, or only part of it, the rest being inferred.

 

Rory

--

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Rory,

 

The question of where the ideas we find

in Chinese medicine come from is a

truly fascinating one. Unschuld is

convinced, and I tend to agree that

the ancients who coined the terms

and authored the texts were engaged

in basic human actions that are all

entirely accountable to human understanding

in our time as at any time. If they

appeared in front of us, if they

were to log on this afternoon and

post message about their concerns,

their fears, their images of their

bodies and their ideas about how

to take care of them, we could

understand every last bit of it,

given the minor detail of language.

 

I think about the differences in the

texture and moment to moment experience

of being alive that arise if you compare

contemporary urban environments, for

example, not to mention contemporary

virtual environments with their crush

of inputs, to the kinds of environments

that ancient Chinese medical personnel

inhabited.

 

Still a forest or a mountaintop can

be a pretty noisy place...if you get

quiet enough. And it seems to me that

much if not all of the wisdom and

insight that we think of in terms of

traditional Chinese anatomy and physiology

is based on information that is directly

perceivable by any human being who simply

cares to put his or her attention on it

and notice what's going on.

 

It's the description that differs markedly

from some English/modern scientific metaphors

that have developed to describe what is

more or less the same, at least similar

terrain.

 

That is the way I was taught it, and that's

the way I teach consequently.

 

The connectivity of qi, accomplished through

the patterns known as channels and network

vessels, is what is really going on in the

body/mind plexus.

 

Isn't it?

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

I like to say to patients that acupuncture channels are bio-electrical

pathways conducted through collagen in the myofacial tissues.

I believe got that idea from Mark Seems.

fyi manipulating the needle has been shown to create a charge that is in fact

detected at a distant needle, if you use stainless steel with a copper or

alloy handle... see Mussant

also very provocative is PET scan that showed activity in the visual cortex

of the brain when needling Guangming BG 37(bright light) amazing imo

Also , there is discussion as to " meridian " being an accurate term. I do

prefer " channel " , it's closer to the Chinese word, I believe.

Skip

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Phil and everyone

 

Being in the question of what are meridians/channels? I found lots of great

answers by putting the exact frasing the way you formulated it on google

 

Most of them were simple synonyms, " like patways for Qi " and so on

 

 

At www.doctorgetwell.org I found this:

 

- Points and Meridians are components of an integrative system of a new

kind.

 

- Its morphological substrate is connective tissue (dense and loose).

 

- The Meridian System is composed of piezoelectric material and has an

electromagnetic nature.

 

- It facilitates organization and control within the organism

 

- This system is responsible for three-dimensional orientation during

embriogenesis.

 

- It sustains structural integrity for the organs and the entire body.

 

- Evolutionarily it is the oldest integrative system of multicellular

organisms.

 

One can also find some meridan maps for horse, pig and chicken on the very

same site

Something to begin with maybe

 

Holger

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Ken and All,

 

When in medical school and later in graduate school much attention was put to

what is described as the reticulo-endothelial system. It can most simply be

seen as the loose connective tissue between the dermis of the skin and the

underlying fascia. This area of loose C.T. is also continuous with the loose

C.T. between muscle organs and other organs throughout the body ... separated at

times by serous membranes like the peritoneum, pleura or pericardium. This

system is described surprisingly in a manner similar to the wei qi ... as an

area of immune surveillance. It is also an area where if infection occurs, it

travels widely. This system has coherence as a higher ordering of tissues and

cells acting in concert yet according to their own programming. Thus, it's fair

to give it a systemic name whether in WM or in CM. I find this to be an

interesting correlation.

 

To carry such correlations further ... Regarding meridians and channels, similar

correlations are observed in embryology where development of many tissue types

follow the lead of the nervous system as limb buds become limbs, for instance.

There is no known mechanism in Western science for how cells " swim " to their

geographical locations during profound and rapid development. There is not a

chemical pathway. It " appears " to be some kind of geographical " induction " .

Meridians? Channels? Perhaps Chinese medicine in its thousands of years of

historical empiricism can function as a guide for this work.

 

Emmanuel Segmen

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Reticulo-endothelial system/tissue, zou-li, where yuan qi becomes wei

qi? The embryological development along nerve tissue, chromafin

tissue migrating along (along what), acting as early adrenalin-like

resevoirs. No chemical pathway. Great thoughts.

Interesting, the most complicated system in the universe is a living

thing. I can only wonder what is going on, but it is fascinating.

I hesitate to ponder some of this in a post as it seems everybody

knows more than me, but it's how I learn.

e.g.,The zou li or fascia or 'conective tissue', is also a conduit

through which the sanjiao transports yuan qi, the more supeficial

layers is where the wei qi suposedly resides. But of course there's

more to it.

Air and food enter organs with their specific channels, kidney

stores and releases yuan qi. Blood flows along w qi, sometimes a

channel has more blood than qi or visa-versa. The channels have

superficial*, branching, deep, and diffusing and collecting areas, so

that the whole organism is supplied and awash w qi (and bld). Under

low level and intense psychological or physical discomfort, the

channels like the micro and peripheral blood flow is blocked. So the

physiological theory develops that when there is an excess in an

organism, there is a deficiency somewhere else also(micro bld circ is

down and some tension in organs restricts bld, but it has to flow

dangerously hard elsewhere, esp if it is pumped even harder. the same

where qi flows recklessly in some place but is stagnated and or

painful elsewhere.)

Sometimes I draw and ponder intricate diagrams where qi flows,where

the different types are created, stored , act, are lost etc, an

overlapping and interweaving qi anatomy picture like the transparent

overlays of skeleton, organs, veins and arteries, fascia, muscle,

skin, other anatomy,a pathway that connects to another pathway etc,

and if we don't ignore the biofield, the energy into and out, the

subtle awarenesses and so on, on, I end up with the beings without

definitive border. Still, there's a core or center of action, (but

one could easily argue, esp to me, that when the biological root is

severed, maybe just the biological root is severed.)

 

**Sequence: So if every main channel point had a number in a sequence

of 1 to 309, Lu1 being #1, Liv14 being #309. To work up the numbers

would be tonifying, and to work backwards down the numbers, would be

sedating. This logic applies wherever in the sequence one begins. And

it applies for any point prescription regardless of how it was

arrived at, including 4, 6, or 8 needle theory. Imagine a little

cardboard circle with the 309 points spaced around the edge. Spinning

clockwise (CW) with the numbers increasing again and again is

tonifying, and going backwards or counter-clockwise (CCW) with the

numbers decreasing would be sedating.)

-for Draining Excess or Sedating, apply needles, hands, magnets,

moxa substances, lasers, bees,(whatever) backwards, or in opposition

to meridian and channel flow. The opposite for Tonifying. Du and Ren

channel points, non-channel points and chronoacupuncture points are

added in to the sequence where the therapeutic properties or use

makes sense, and/or the location is obviously related to a channel.

This isn't inflexible. Lots of fudge room, and inferred applications

for complicated or undertermined pathology. Also ok for example,

starting with point or channel with most fundamental indications, or

planning for leaving a needle in to be removed last (or a point to be

worked on last) so body remembers it. -

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Emmanuel

Segmen " <susegmen@i...> wrote:

> Ken and All,

>

> When in medical school and later in graduate school much attention

was put to what is described as the reticulo-endothelial system. It

can most simply be seen as the loose connective tissue between the

dermis of the skin and the underlying fascia. This area of loose

C.T. is also continuous with the loose C.T. between muscle organs and

other organs throughout the body ... separated at times by serous

membranes like the peritoneum, pleura or pericardium. This system is

described surprisingly in a manner similar to the wei qi ... as an

area of immune surveillance. It is also an area where if infection

occurs, it travels widely. This system has coherence as a higher

ordering of tissues and cells acting in concert yet according to

their own programming. Thus, it's fair to give it a systemic name

whether in WM or in CM. I find this to be an interesting

correlation.

>

> To carry such correlations further ... Regarding meridians and

channels, similar correlations are observed in embryology where

development of many tissue types follow the lead of the nervous

system as limb buds become limbs, for instance. There is no known

mechanism in Western science for how cells " swim " to their

geographical locations during profound and rapid development. There

is not a chemical pathway. It " appears " to be some kind of

geographical " induction " . Meridians? Channels? Perhaps Chinese

medicine in its thousands of years of historical empiricism can

function as a guide for this work.

>

> Emmanuel Segmen

>

>

>

>